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:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 April 17 - Knowledge

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were shortened to "my" and "thy" before consonants, and then even before vowels, as well. The reason was not to prevent two vowels being pronounced together, but to avoid saying a declensional/conjugational "n" before an inititial consonant. Verb and noun endings with "n" had already largely died out by the end of the Middle English period ("children" and "oxen" being rare exceptions that survive). The process continued with "mine", "thine" and "an", probably because the "n" was misinterpreted as a declensional ending.
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people go to seclude themselves. For example, people speak of spiritual retreats (perhaps focused on meditation) or writing retreats. A vacation or holiday might be described as a retreat, but a vacation gambling and drinking in Las Vegas would not normally be described as a retreat. Many cultures have a concept of spiritual retreat, and you might try a word in your target language with that meaning. While the title might have been chosen, as StuRat suggests, because of the double entendre of the word
1014:
In America, you hear it from people much older than that. A friend of mine (currently in her mid-40s) told me when she was younger she used to tease her mother (presumably currently in her late 60s at the youngest) for saying "Get in the lane with a arrow in it" when giving instructions to the driver
952:
Actually, it was your comparison to the intrusive "r" that I most objected to. As for the comparison with French, there is some similarity, but not quite. In English, this didn't happen with all "n"s, but only with those that were (or were misinterpreted as) declensional/conjugational endings. "N"s
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means either 1) a time when a person chooses to separate himself or herself from his or her regular routine or the demands of worldly life and to seclude himself or herself (perhaps with other like-minded people) in a peaceful setting, sometimes for a specific purpose, or 2) a peaceful locale where
895:
Nice try, but historically indefensible. The "n" is in no way intrusive, but a part of the full stem of the word. The "n" is dropped from "an" (a sister form of the word "one"), not added to "a". The same thing used to happen to "mine" and "thine" ("Mine eyes have seen", "Avert thine eyes"), which
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Well, for those that haven't seen the movie and cannot be bothered to read the description, could you please say at least if the following sentence from the film's site: "their island retreat is about to become a prison" can be interpreted as: "their island withdrawal is about to become a prison"?
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A "retreat" is also a place to go on holiday. The idea is to get away from your busy life and have a relaxing vacation. It's related to the other usual meaning, the retreat of an army - in that case the army would be moving away from danger or trouble. I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know if
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And just to throw a monkey-wrench in the discussion, when used before the "long-u" sound, it is always "a" and not "an", as in "I have a use for that" and usually never "I have an* use for that." Although that's a case of a more consonantal u anyways, as it's a u acting like a y (as in you and
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Well, I should say that the dictionary I found also linked κηδεία to κῆδος, but none of the hypotheses for the ultimate etymology listed under either entry linked the two words. Anything's possible, but etymologists have their reasons; it may be that the ώ / ή sound change is not found in other
730:
If there are adjectives, use 'an' when the adjective directly after the article begins with a vowel sound ('easy', 'honourable', 'outstanding'), but not when it doesn't ('big', 'small'). It doesn't matter what the noun, or any other adjectives begin with. So in your example, it would be 'a big
1029:
Very common in children and somewhat common in sub-standard speakers of all varieties of English, and has been for quite some time. Definitely not specific to American or Australian (substandard) English. I haven't heard about it increasing in usage among standard speakers anywhere.
824:... but then there are a few people who say (and write) "an hotel", even when they pronounce the "h", because they were taught that "hotel" takes "an" by someone who didn't pronounce the "h" (or by someone whose teacher didn't), and the logic got lost in the chain. </rant: --> 1120:
Your monkey-wrench isn't a spanner because what you call a "long u" is pronounced as if it begins with the consonant "y", so follows the pronunciation rule. A genuine long "u" (rare in English) still takes "an" not "a" before it. I don't know of any exceptions to the rule.
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I would like to know the opinion of native speakers that have seen the film or read the description. The problem we have is related to difficulties in translating this film's name into other languages, that's why my question was asked here and not in Entertainment. Tnank you
469: 769:. For example, the word "euphonious" starts with a vowel letter (e) but the opening syllable is "yoo", which would start with a consonant (y) if we wrote it "yoophonious". Therefore, we say "a euphonious sound", not "an euphonious sound". -- ♬ 244:"Taking an isolated break on an uninhabited island, Martin (Cillian Murphy -The Dark Night, 28 Days Later) and Kate (Thandie Newton -2012, RocknRolla) are about to find that their island retreat is about to become a prison of unimaginable terror." 127:
I don't think it's a sentence, but just a fragment - a museum label, perhaps? "A stone for touching the eyes, encased/mounted in gold". Disclaimer: I am unfamiliar with any verb 'enchassier', but its meaning seems apparent from form and context.
656:/ō/ and /ē/ respectively, which can occur in different forms of the same root. But I'd think it more likely that the association of poppies with death comes from the (chance) resemblance of the words, rather than the other way around. — 918:
Actually, still similar to French, since historical french also dropped final consonants from pronounciations except when the next word began with a vowel. The development of liaison in French worked historically
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what happened with a/an. That was exactly and 100% my point, so I find it odd that you take an oppositional tone and then agree that the n was dropped from an to make a, which was not in opposition to my point.
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yours). What's amazing about language is that native speakers rarely have to be reminded of the rules as complex as when to use "a" or "an" even though it is fraught with apparent exceptions and exclusions. --
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It need not be sub-standard speakers. I've known educated people who would say something like, "I'll be back in a hour". But they're liable to say "a" as "uh", which makes it work better (or less bad, anyway).
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No, in that sentence they are using the "vacation/holiday" meaning. However, I suspect they picked that word because of it's double meaning, as they later need to "retreat", as in withdrawal under fire.
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I'd say it's more likely that the association of poppies with death comes from the narcotic effect of poppies, and the chance resemblance of the words is nothing more than a happy coincidence.
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In the noun sense it means a place of seclusion and presumed safety. Marco is onto it: They could have accomplished the same by saying that "their safe haven is about to turn into hell". ←
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So the correct rule is to write "an" before any word that is pronounced as if it begins with a vowel. (e.g. "an herb" in American English, but "a herb" in British English).
59: 350:, I think it was very likely chosen at least in part because of the ironic contrast between the intended peaceful retreat and the hellish nightmare that ensued. 567:, meaning "vault" or "hole" and is related to ancient Greek κῶος, "hollow place", "cave". It seems that your friend is correct; the words are unrelated. 85:
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the
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Thanks for all your help. The stone in question is a "magical stone" with alleged healing properties which belonged to a French noblewoman in 1470.--
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I heard the association with death was because poppies tend to grow in recently disturbed dirt, as in a grave. Can anyone confirm or debunk this ?
716: 691: 520: 1156: 1082: 975: 871:, that is to avoid pronouncing two vowel sounds side-by-side. In some non-standard English dialects, this is also accomplished via the 813: 453: 411: 996:
I don't know how widespread this is, but various 20-odd-year-olds of my acquaintance are perfectly comfortable with saying things like
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instances and is therefore not plausible. Also, as Deor found, the words also have other meanings which would need to be explained.
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The intrusive "r" is typically used between vowels, like the trailing "n" is. One example we used to laugh at, decades ago, was on
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I know we use "an" before the words start with a vowel but what happened if there is an adj. Let say: a big apple or an big apple?
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All this reminds me of my puzzlement, once upon a time, that so many entries in a certain biographical index said things like
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that were part of the word stem or part of a suffix were mostly unaffected, except for "an", "mine" and "thine", of course.
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Grrr coincidence, Oh well, atleast i have a nice mental cue if i'm ever trying to remember the word for funeral! ~~
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as you describe the a/an pair developing in English; that is liaison in French developed as the final consonant was
1035: 958: 901: 720: 695: 524: 86: 17: 875:, but in most standard forms of English the A/An situation is the only example of liaison I can think of. -- 497:• Poppies being symbolic of death comes from greek/roman mythology, where poppies were offered to the dead. 290: 209: 147: 117: 736: 393: 308: 256: 133: 1210: 477: 272: 341:
in this sense actually has a slightly different meaning than "vacation" or "holiday". In this sense,
1031: 954: 897: 868: 751:. An adjective is a word, like any other; if it starts with a vowel, use "an" before it and not "a". 687: 516: 355: 304: 252: 112:? I can only make out two words: stone and gold. Thank you. I need it for an article I am editing.-- 653: 282: 1205:
This was very interesting! I never know the 'an' before a vowel rule, have always just winged it.
1153: 1108: 1079: 1068: 1007: 972: 940: 883: 810: 776: 614: 513:• my greek friend insists the root is different Surely this can't be coincidence? Any thoughts? 450: 408: 286: 205: 196: 143: 113: 732: 661: 636: 593: 436: 129: 1206: 864: 792: 584: 540: 473: 324: 268: 247:
What is the meaning implied in the film's name? Is it something similar to army withdrawal?
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They seem not to be of precisely the same origin, but the one is a synonym of the other.
1052: 1020: 971:, when host Graham Kerr would refer to his wife Trina and himself as "Treener and I." ← 755: 675: 572: 235: 179: 165: 587:, there is no relation between the two words, though the origin of each is uncertain. 333:
If I were going to translate the title, I would translate the non-military meaning of
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meant "head" and frequently was used of the seed heads of plants, such as the poppy.
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Oooo yes! Ha Ha! Very good! (I had to think about it before the penny dropped!)
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If we're not certain of their origins, how do know they have no relation? -- ♬
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What is the meaning implied in the name of 2011 British film "Retreat"?
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The A/An situation in English is roughly equivalent to the concept of
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To "retreat" is to "draw back", i.e. to pull back from someplace.
285:- which is not exactly a "holiday", at least in the usual sense. 108:
Could someone please translate this French sentence to English:
378:. And if the article is interested in discussing his roles, 142:
I believe it refers to a stone with alleged magical powers.--
555:, which meant "care", especially care for the dead. Ancient 174:
And it should be enchâssée, since une pierre is feminine. --
758:
and has nothing to do with anything more complex than that.
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Oh, thanks for that, Deor. How quickly we forget. -- ♬
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Welcome to the Knowledge Language Reference Desk Archives
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The American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots
506:• κώδεια is the ancient greek for a poppy head (i.e. 867:in the French language. The reasoning is to avoid 384:would be a better choice, as he has a tiny role in 110:Une pierre pour toucher les yeux, enchassié en or 787:For the reverse exception, how about an X-ray ? 749:we use "an" before the words start with a vowel 551:Modern Greek κηδεία descends from ancient Greek 490:Greek etymology entanglements: poppies and death 503:• κήδεια is the modern greek word for funeral 998:"What would you prefer, a apple or a orange?" 104:Need help in translating this French sentence 8: 563:says that the latter comes from the IE root 494:So these are the facts as i understand it: 1000:, a smorgasbord of glo'al stops. -- ♬ 267:both meanings are intended in the title. 234:Information about the film can be found 49: 36: 65: 241:The official site says the following: 43: 7: 747:You had it right in your question: 32: 1152:Christmastime - an Yule event. ← 927:in certain situations, which is 765:and not necessarily about vowel 761:But remember, it's about vowel 472:gets 1,130,000 Google results. 1: 425:chef de bataillon en retraite 33: 585:this etymological dictionary 1230: 1215:16:04, 20 April 2012 (UTC) 1194:07:22, 21 April 2012 (UTC) 1161:11:25, 20 April 2012 (UTC) 1147:06:48, 19 April 2012 (UTC) 1116:01:48, 19 April 2012 (UTC) 1087:00:38, 19 April 2012 (UTC) 1071:22:06, 18 April 2012 (UTC) 1057:21:32, 18 April 2012 (UTC) 1040:20:57, 18 April 2012 (UTC) 1025:20:27, 18 April 2012 (UTC) 1010:20:20, 18 April 2012 (UTC) 980:00:40, 19 April 2012 (UTC) 963:20:57, 18 April 2012 (UTC) 948:20:30, 18 April 2012 (UTC) 906:20:16, 18 April 2012 (UTC) 891:19:57, 18 April 2012 (UTC) 851:07:33, 18 April 2012 (UTC) 818:23:37, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 797:23:18, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 779:22:20, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 741:21:43, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 725:21:40, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 700:14:25, 19 April 2012 (UTC) 680:17:36, 18 April 2012 (UTC) 666:07:25, 18 April 2012 (UTC) 652:Well, ω and η may reflect 642:04:38, 18 April 2012 (UTC) 617:01:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC) 599:22:26, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 577:22:23, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 545:19:30, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 529:18:53, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 482:15:57, 18 April 2012 (UTC) 458:00:43, 19 April 2012 (UTC) 441:07:33, 18 April 2012 (UTC) 416:23:42, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 398:19:16, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 360:17:32, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 329:17:22, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 313:17:12, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 295:16:39, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 277:16:16, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 261:16:13, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 214:13:02, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 199:12:58, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 184:10:36, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 170:09:00, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 152:08:17, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 138:08:13, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 122:08:04, 17 April 2012 (UTC) 236:in this Knowledge article 1045:Previous ref-desk thread 189:Lucky Pierre. :) -- ♬ 160:it means "set in gold". 18:Knowledge:Reference desk 1015:of the car she was in. 374:, not something called 805:ex-ray. As opposed to 368:Cillian Murphy was in 87:current reference desk 969:The Galloping Gourmet 654:Proto-Indo-European 283:Retreat (spiritual) 583:(ec) According to 468:The search phrase 1168: 825: 690:comment added by 640: 597: 519:comment added by 443: 201: 156:If it's actually 93: 92: 73: 72: 1221: 1190: 1189: 1186: 1183: 1180: 1177: 1174: 1166: 1163: 1143: 1142: 1139: 1136: 1133: 1130: 1127: 1111: 1104: 1065: 1004: 943: 936: 886: 879: 847: 846: 843: 840: 837: 834: 831: 823: 773: 702: 634: 611: 591: 531: 470:"island retreat" 422: 193: 188: 75: 34: 1229: 1228: 1224: 1223: 1222: 1220: 1219: 1218: 1187: 1184: 1181: 1178: 1175: 1172: 1171: 1151: 1140: 1137: 1134: 1131: 1128: 1125: 1124: 1109: 1102: 1063: 1032:Dominus Vobisdu 1002: 955:Dominus Vobisdu 941: 934: 898:Dominus Vobisdu 884: 877: 844: 841: 838: 835: 832: 829: 828: 771: 754:It's all about 713: 685: 609: 514: 492: 386:The Dark Knight 371:The Dark Knight 232: 191: 106: 101: 30: 29: 28: 12: 11: 5: 1227: 1225: 1203: 1202: 1201: 1200: 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107: 94: 78: 1207:Napltomatic 873:intrusive R 474:Alansplodge 431:officers. — 269:Adam Bishop 1064:Jack of Oz 1003:Jack of Oz 772:Jack of Oz 610:Jack of Oz 352:Marco polo 305:Baradyarad 253:Baradyarad 192:Jack of Oz 869:diaeresis 50:<< 925:retained 731:apple'. 688:unsigned 517:unsigned 99:April 17 67:April 18 46:April 16 26:Language 24:‎ | 22:Archives 20:‎ | 1157:carrots 1083:carrots 976:carrots 929:exactly 921:exactly 865:liaison 814:carrots 801:Right, 767:letters 756:euphony 711:Article 658:Tamfang 632:Lesgles 589:Lesgles 508:codeine 454:carrots 433:Tamfang 429:retired 412:carrots 348:retreat 343:retreat 339:Retreat 335:retreat 89:pages. 1103:Jayron 935:Jayron 878:Jayron 789:StuRat 763:sounds 557:κώδεια 537:StuRat 321:StuRat 565:keuə- 553:κῆδος 499:poppy 69:: --> 63:: --> 62:: --> 56:April 44:< 16:< 1211:talk 1053:talk 1049:Deor 1036:talk 1021:talk 1017:Angr 959:talk 902:talk 793:talk 737:talk 721:talk 696:talk 676:talk 672:Angr 662:talk 637:talk 594:talk 573:talk 569:Deor 541:talk 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Index

Knowledge:Reference desk
Archives
Language
Language desk
April 16
Mar
April
May
April 18
current reference desk
Jeanne Boleyn
talk
08:04, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
AlexTiefling
talk
08:13, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Jeanne Boleyn
talk
08:17, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Angr
talk
09:00, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Xuxl
talk
10:36, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Jack of Oz

12:58, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Jeanne Boleyn
talk

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