Knowledge (XXG):Requests for comment/Lar

4468:

support each other unconditionally and all share essentially the same views on AGW and climate change in general. Anyone who does not share that view is subjected to low-level harassment and disparagement, never strong enough to rise to the level of a valid complaint, but cumulatively enough to keep all but the most determined away from the subject. It appears that Lar has run afoul of the gatekeepers of the global warming articles, and now there is a concerted effort to prevent him from using his admin bits in any fashion on the topic, because he has acted against the wishes of a noisy minority. I am not impressed by the differences supplied by SBHB; they show that Lar correctly notes groupthink exists on this topic, and that he is occasionally exasperated by it. In this RFC, he has been accused of being "delusional" (by Enric Naval) and "unprofessional" (by dave souza), and accused of exhibiting a battleground mentality (the same battleground mentality that will no doubt be assigned to me shortly), by the same small group of editors. Well, yes, coordinated attacks often appear to be a battleground. In any case, Enric and dave's views extend beyond the bounds of acceptable discussion of the editor's behavior into the unacceptable realm of personal attacks.

2759:

late), I run the other way. Lar should be commended for what I believe is doing his best to help make the area less toxic. WMC has a long pattern of attempting to bully others when they attempt to stand up to him. He demonstrates a persistent inability (or unwillingness) to converse in a manner conducive to collaboration. This has been going on for years, and yet he is still allowed to continue. It does, indeed, give the appearance that he is unsanctionable, and that anyone who makes an attempt to rein him in is met with bullying and having their own conduct questioned. There does seem to be a cadre, cabal, group of editors,or whatever you wish to call it, who all defend each other and create a very uncollaborative atmosphere in the area of global warming, broadly construed. Their conduct is seemingly so perfect that anyone questioning it must surely have a bias/agenda.

5224:. However, levelling that playing field is not in Knowledge (XXG)'s interest - or in anybody's who supports quality coverage. It is only due to the hard work and permanent vigilance of a number of scientifically literate editors that despite aggressive campaigning and socking the weight of the scientific opinion is, if not perfectly then at least adequately, reflected in the climate change articles, which have received praise from serious outside sources. Lar has been effusive but nebulous about what exactly he wants to level or what he perceives as "uphill", but he has consistently advocated more and stricter sanctions against members of what he calls "Team Science", while he has been remarkably diffident when discussing problems with editors associated with the so-called "skeptic" position. 5053:

website don't want to be banned, because then their side may lose the content battle or their view may not get presented (of course, their addiction to Knowledge (XXG) may also have something to do with it). Thus, they will use every mechanism possible to put admins they perceive as threats at arm's distance. Admins, of course, do form opinions on which editors they feel are operating in good faith and which ones are not, and, as Sarek points out, this is natural. Nevertheless, admins should be aware that if they make these opinions known, editors who feel threatened by these opinions will very well try to use those expressed opinions as a weapon in their fight over content. Who does this reflect most poorly on? I think the answer to that question is obvious.

496:) is pretty good at summing things up. He does not find me involved. Further, a number of other people have also commented that they do not find me involved. I don't edit articles in this space, I haven't been involved, and my interactions with WMC prior to this enforcement action getting started have been pretty routine... no more than many other admins who have had encounters with WMC from time to time. I think most reasonable people will agree I'm not involved within the meaning we all customarily hold, although I acknowledge that WMC and many of his close allies do not agree. I think asking for annother ArbCom opinion on what constitutes uninvolvedness might be helpful to those who have doubts. 3769:

the other hand, I've interacted with Lar in other areas of dispute, where I've been deeply grateful for his helpfulness, and I've sought out his advice, so I'm not neutral with respect to him. With that background, I've carefully read all of the diffs here, not just the ones from Cla, but all of them in this RfC. What I see is an imbalance in which the comments by those who have raised this complaint seem worse than the evidence of Lar's own actions. Clearly, this is one of those subject areas where editors, all around, get hot under the collar, climate notwithstanding. But I just do not see evidence to justify the requested sanction against Lar. --

5483:

gaining explicit consensus first. General sanctions do not typically even require usage of an enforcement page, often enabling administrators to act at their own discretion. What's more, GSE isn't like normal administrative actions; GSE without consensus can only be revoked if counter-consensus exists, and attempting undoing of GSE, even a controversial one, without consensus is grounds for immediate desysoping. It because of this that the question of involvement becomes critical; it is the most significant, if not only, safety device in this process.

2892:

only because the participants of such disputes often see everyone in terms of friends and enemies, but because regular participation in dispute resolution will inevitably lead to the admin forming their own opinion about the dispute and its participants. While voicing these opinions does not automatically disqualify admins from acting as such, they should be aware that doing so, except where required to explain their admin actions (e.g. "I am blocking you because you edit disruptively") diminishes the authority and legitimacy of their actions.

5159:

because the admin therefore maintains his or her initial view is not a third option, nor can I agree with Dave or others that this in any way supported by the important concept of maintaining proper appearances. Admins having opinions and stating their relevant opinions should be strongly encouraged, not discouraged; their doing so only increases transparency and helps editors understand and address these views. The tendency to stymie openness from decision makers with intemperate criticism is always present, but should be resisted.

3181:

guidelines as Lar invokes. I do not see, and indeed request examples, of Lars' comments unduly or otherwise strongly influencing or changing the other admins considerations. Providing Lar does not act upon his viewpoint when it is not of the consensus and only contributes toward the consensus in both the finding upon the request and deciding upon the appropriate response, then it is fully within his remit to make such comments and suggestions he feels will most appropriately serve the project generally and the Probation specifically.

529:... I think there is value in diverse opinions. But I do not go against consensus. Surfacing opinions and proposing differing remedies gets us to better solutions. So I don't think this charge is valid at all. We do not want to have only admins of one particular view doing the enforcing. We want admins that uphold our principles of NPOV, of civility and a collegial environment, of working together, of reliable sourcing, and the like. Their own personal views are not supposed to matter. 2206:. "Significant content removals are usually not considered to be vandalism ... where a non-frivolous explanation for the removal of apparently legitimate content is provided, linked to, or referenced in an edit summary." Edit summaries of "remove WP:COATRACK attack on individual and on inauiry, not info about the blog" and "Might as well redirect now, there's nothing here that isn't already in Andrew Montford" are non-frivolous explanations. 827:

admin is being less than perfect with their civility in response to dealing with contentious enforcement requests then that can be dealt with (including getting additional support for the admins working in the contentious areas.) But that should not trigger a request for an admin to abstain since this will escalate the negative response toward admins in order to get them react and need to abstain from working in a controversial area.

2417: 2066:'s insistance that there was a "cabal" that was squashing minority viewpoints for unspecified reasons. Lar just fails to see the possibility that WMC could be right in his arguments, Lar just defaults to assume that WMC is wrong and that it's all part of a bigger plot. I can't trust Lar's judgement in WMC-related actions, or in climate change-related articles. 4035:

that this is the case here. One of the strengths of the wiki model is that no one editor should be considered indispensible; for instance, I am much happier with the level of vitriol on my talkpage having taken a month (mostly) off from these pages. This is also why I consistently argue that we should be as predictable as possible when deciding any sanctions.

4681:

perhaps less blatant than they used to be. The same obnoxious behavior justified in the defense of "science," the same sniping, the same collection of one-sided, misleading links designed to silence opposition by manipulating policy, rather than using actual facts, and the same "we aren't a cabal and you're attacking us" in cabal-like unison.

610:. If it is considered that Lar's arguments may sway or persuade the consensus, then it will only be by reference to policy, guideline and practice; and that is how it is supposed to work. To end, I repeat I do not find the points raised in this RfC persuasive and nor the necessity of Lar amending his manner of conducting himself. 2298: 5208:. Lar seems to use a non-standard third version that is based only on the areas an editor has contributed in. By that definition he is indeed uninvolved. By any reasonable definition he is non-neutral, biased, and has a displayed a prejudicial opinion that is impossible to penetrate with arguments of any kind. 1443:, where WMC insults Lar after I gave him a barnstar for Lar's incredible work over the years (really amazing stuff if you look at your history). Perhaps I should be just as openly hostile to admins I don't like, get my friends to chant with me, and hope that the diff display distracts from the diff substance. 965:

probation; but there is a danger that in the poisonous atmosphere that surrounds climate change in Knowledge (XXG), if he does so, some editors will use this to claim that he is also "involved" in future enforcement requests not relating to WMC. It should be made clear that this is not an acceptable argument.

5255:

In short, Lar has the unfortunate habit of forming opinions too quickly, of stating opinions in at least misleading and often derogatory language ("Cabal", "involved"), and of equivocating if caught with an undeniable error. Given the resulting bad blood between Lar and several editors in the climate

5250:

on Lar's talk page, it became clear that this was another snap judgement without any sound support. However, after first defending the claim of involvement, Lar then reinterpreted his statement as merely a technical comment (quite regardless of the fact that even technically it needs a lot of stretch

5212:

As pointed out by others in this RfC, Lar admittedly entered the area with a feeling that "the playing field is not level" and the explicit intention of fixing that. Yes, in a certain sense the playing field is not level. One side in the Knowledge (XXG) climate change discussions has the overwhelming

5158:

If you succeed in getting an admin to form the view that you are being repeatedly disruptive, then you have two basic options: either make the necessary adjustments, or rest assured that consensus will support your decisions. Continuing in the same manner but simply accusing the admin of involvement

5141:

such preconceived notions distort their judgement of the evidence before them, and should assume good faith. They should also be careful not to prejudice a case by expressing these preconceptions, particularly as editors who feel supported by these opinions will be encouraged to play the system using

4042:

in deciding his revert restriction by omitting consideration of the fact that he started the talkpage discussion. One of the goals of the probation is to put an end to the incessant edit warring in the topic area, which to me indicates that we should do more to encourage discussion as well as more to

4034:

I think, for the sake of propriety, it would be best if you refrained from commenting at the probation page while there is a good faith discussion of your actions in this area. I am sympathetic that no one should be able to disqualify you simply by initiating vexatious proceedings, but I do not think

1434:

ridiculously frivolous and pointy request against himself. If this request is even seriously considered then LessVanHeard should be brought up as well since the same group who has repeated, in the hope that repetition can conjure truth, that Lar is biased have already sown those same seeds on another

826:

It seems to me that the concept of "uninvolved" developed to deal with the exact problem that is occurring in this RFC. And I strongly disagree with tightening the meaning to exclude admins who have conflicts with editors during the dispute resolution process when an user is acting as an admin. If an

571:

with comment on BozMo: tha apparent balance is curently unequal, and removal of "one on each side" would therefore make the balance less equal. Nor would it appear that Lar has a particular side he favors concerning AGW. The removal of people in disproportionate numbers from side of any debate does

5482:

Many here have stated that they trust Lar to not act against consensus. It is my opinion statements such as these miss the point. General Sanctions enforcement (GSE) is not a consensus based process. It is imposed when the usual process fails, in order to enable administrators to take action without

4829:

Lar is far less involved than either BozMo or 2/0 in terms of a history in working on the content. He seems to have wikipolitical views comparable to other admins such as LessHeardvanU or KillerChihuahua. The rest of this seems to be smoke. I'd like very much to see a thoughtful evaluation of any

4410:

I more or less qualify as what Casliber is calling a passerby, and I agree with what Casliber is saying. I looked at the links provided by Hipocrite, and what I think I see is a content dispute about sourcing in which Cla, not Lar, provides some sourcing for the use of a word, and Hipocrite observes

4022:

since shortly before it started, and have engaged in numerous productive discussions with Lar. I have seen Lar around various parts of the project before, but cannot remember any significant interactions before a few months ago. I have found that he argues consistently for the cause of fairness, and

3180:

Lar does not act outside of consensus. Never has, and, I believe, never will. In the matter of the CC Probation enforcement page his views and suggestions are weighed by the other admins, as are those of all other parties, in coming to a decision. They have only as much influence as the policies and

2758:

Lar has the courage and conviction to tackle an area that is among the most contentious and toxic on Knowledge (XXG). This is an area that many of us (including myself) stay as far away as possible from. Every time I hear about a global warming dispute (which seems to be occurring more frequently of

1613:

At bottom the question is whether we are meant solely to follow the letter of policy or whether we also should respect its spirit. If adherence to the strict letter of policy is all that matters, then there is no ground for this RfC and it should be closed. If adherence to the spirit of policy is of

605:

I would comment upon Lars summarisation of the desired outcome; even if it were found that the contentions were accurate in any way (and that would not be my view) I should state that it should not matter, since Lar is not going to act against consensus - his input to the admin discussion is that of

4389:

point that was getting folks hot and bothered in the first place, and there are often times it can take a few clicks to find. Hence, if this RfC is going to be of any use, then showing outsiders (who might be a little, I dare say, less interested in the personalities involved and more interested on

4210:

All but point 1. because firstly Lar does not form the consensus on those pages, he contributes to it, and, secondly, this would not progress toward resolving the issues surrounding the RfC but is rather the desired outcome of the RfC; in order to address whether Lar should not edit the enforcement

3768:

I am pretty comfortable with science controversies (and in real-life have a bias that climate change is serious and real), and I am comfortable with a serious content debate, but I have have stayed away from the entire climate area like the plague. So I'm uninvolved with respect to this history. On

3590:

When Lar took a strong stand against WMC's aggressive behavior, WMC attacked Lar in multiple venues, and when Lar responded, WMC (and others) used the resulting conflict to claim that Lar is involved. I believe this has happened before with WMC: IIRC, two admins who recently took action against WMC

2911:

choose (and, if necessary, declare) whether they want to act as editors, which includes participating in general discussions about content and conduct in the area of conflict, or whether they want to act as administrators, and therefore to stay "above the fray" and keep their opinions to themselves

2678:

Lar has lost his cool in a stressful environment and has at times got dragged into the battle ground, when in my view acting as a good faithed uninvolved administrator. This is his own fault but considering the intolerable editing environment with POV pushing tag teams, I must agree when looking at

2308:

by labelling five editors as a "cadre". Knowledge (XXG) is a cooperative project, with editors of various overlapping interests coming together in subject areas to work as a team. Lar's approach of labelling editors interested in science as a "cadre" or a "cabal" at the same time as pushing for his

1308:

As a personal extra note (not endorsed by others who sign below) if there are people who regard my own position as equally biased as Lar (which may be the reaction to this view), I would be entirely happy for both Lar & I to withdraw from acting as uninvolved admins on climate change probation,

1304:

This makes is difficult to be seen to be fair, and easy to get side tracked into whether the unsupported allegations about WMC using "dishonest tactics" which we "don't get" are appropriate etc. There are still issues with WMC's behaviour but it is harder to deal with when there is so much smoke on

533:

Now, on the desired outcome of removing me from the enforcement... all I will say is that it has been an observed tactic in the past for a party to an admin action to cry "he's involved" as a way to knock the admin out. We tend not to countenance that approach, and we should not do so in this case.

499:

Goading: The charge seems to basically be that I am imperfect in my interactions with WMC. We all of us are imperfect, of course. And it's expected that those trying to enforce sanctions should be among our best behaved folk. However, I do not think I've "goaded" WMC. Certainly, he's managed to get

5067:

I'd like to endorse Cla's view of the view. That really nailed it! It's dead wrong for editors to try to get rid of administrators seen as obstacles to pushing a content goal, when the administrator is a human being with an opinion but who is administrating within policy. It's also a good idea for

4684:

Lar isn't perfect, and he's willing to examine his communications and admit where he's been wrong. That alone makes him one of our best admins, in my opinion. WMC, on the other hand, would rather sling more attacks and call on friends to circle the wagons, rather than even consider that he might

4257:

Alright, at the end of the day, this is about building an encyclopedia. Alot of folks will decline to read this RfC past the "he said/I said/he said/I said" argy-bargy which is usual. What onlookers really need is clear and simple links examples of edits/points of view on the articles in question,

2891:

This is not necessarily surprising. In my experience, it is very difficult for an administrator to be frequently sanctioning editors involved in highly polarized disputes (such as Israel/Palestine, Eastern European issues or climate change) and to be perceived as neutral by both sides. This is not

2252:

it would go a long way towards alleviating the concerns in this RfC/U. Does anyone have evidence of a personal dispute between these users already extant before this year? I think it matters a great deal whether this entanglement is an extension of a pre-existing dispute or merely has grown out of

1833:

do, since we just can't read minds. The typical seasoned Wikipedian is intelligent enough to see that Lar does not fall within the deliberately narrow definition of "involved" in this case, but that doesn't mean he's helping matters any at this point. Lar doesn't suffer fools gladly, and this is

905:

I've seen no diffs suggesting Lar is "involved". What I do see is a small group of editors showing contempt for the content and behavioral policies. If the admins enforcing the probation are undermined to the point that the case ends up before ArbCom, some of those editors are likely to face topic

479:

That I be deemed not an uninvolved admin, particularly with respect to WMC, and thus not eligible to put my views on how to resolve enforcement actions forward as part of the consensus process that has evolved, and also not eligible to carry out unilateral enforcement actions, as is the process at

56:

user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 10:01, 29 April 2010 (UTC)), the

5293:

Let's put aside policy for a moment, which seems ambiguous anyway, and take a long view. To me, the situation is like a cop having to deal with unruly protesters. A cop can't or shouldn't scream obscenities because they are being yelled at him. The person with the power has to act with restraint.

5140:

Endorse, no-one should be pretending that admins should not have opinions. Casliber and Cla68 both make good points, in the latter case it should also be noted that admins who "form opinions on which editors they feel are operating in good faith and which ones are not" should take care to not let

4825:

One major problem is that promoting factionalism and opposing it often looks very much the same. For instance, a perfectly uninvolved admin could look at a situation and say, "here we have a group of editors gaming the system and acting disruptively." This seems to be what is claimed here about

4094:

You think global warming is a socio-political topic area with a grounding in science, I think it is a scientific topic area with socio-political consequences - neither of these opinions is relevant in any way unless we start editing these articles, and there is no reason why I should know how you

4071:

cohesiveness in the several groups and reinforcing the battleground mentality that is such a problem in this topic area. These editors are individuals, and should all be treated as such. Unless this goes back to ArbCom or you otherwise develop actionable concerns, I think referring to "groups" or

2289:

My feeling was that much of this was due to unprofessionalism and discourtesy on Lar's part in promoting one-sided views rather than acting as an uninvolved admin. I had hoped that by setting out what I saw as the main issues on his talk page, we could agree on behavioural improvements that would

839:

I trust Lar never to act against consensus. I endorse his above comments on how this case has unfolded. There's always been a problem on any enforcement issue, with a genuinely uninvolved admin coming in and then being considered "involved" by some because of their enforcement role. This would be

5052:

Admins theoretically have the power to ban people, which means that admins ultimately control content because of Knowledge (XXG)'s constant tug-of-war over ideas and POV in many subject areas. Needless to say, editors who are trying to ensure that a particular point of view is prevelant in this

4680:

I haven't checked in on RFC/U in a while, but it seems that the more things change, the more they stay the same. A few things are different, now that the topic is Global Warming instead of Intelligent Design, but I see a number of the same names, and the old dirty tactics are still alive, though

4303:

Both of these edits show reasonably clear offwiki coordination, a total lack of respect for our sourcing policies, and trading on Cla68's previously good reputation to pull a fast one on other contributors. Where did Cla68 get the quote "mined" from, exactly? Where did he get the dead link from,

3821:

I don't believe there is any serious claim that Lar is more involved than any other admin who has acted in this area. I also see a very concerted effort to attack the referees for disfavorable decisions. I don't believe it's about secret collusion (as inevitably is read into the talk of cabals

2679:

things in context that this RFC is a farce and feel that Lar does not deserve to be subject to an RFC. This RFC is a symptom of the battle ground, not a solution to it;, climate change drama is too complex for RFC to solve, as it involves multiple people with polarised and extremist viewpoints.--

882:

on these climate change articles and I feel it is unfair that individual admins are being subjected to the stress of an RFC. Lar probably has made poor choiced comments but considering the editing environment would drive a saint to drink, and the comments are mild this RfC should never have been

4467:

I won't use the word "cabal", but there is a group of like-minded editors on this topic who are certain to show up whenever climate change is the subject of a dispute. (I see most of the usual suspects have commented against Lar; there are one or two more who haven't participated yet.) They all

3460:

to provoke an emotional response from Lar. I'm going to start a representative list of supporting diffs here. I think Lar has done a fairly good job at keeping his cool under the circumstances and, as has been noted above, has consistently accepted the consensus decision-making with the other

543:

I would like to see BozMo's offer firmly rejected. He and I do not see eye to eye on everything, (who does?) but he is a valuable member of the enforcement team. The answer to improving this enforcement regime is not to remove admins in pairs until none are left. The answer is to encourage more

4821:

It's unfortunate that this area of Knowledge (XXG) suffers from a great deal of factionalism. Doing anything in such an environment can be extremely difficult, as even quite reasonable people will often decide that it just isn't worth acknowledging "inconvenient" problems (sorry), for fear of

4471:

MZMcBride uses the term "farce" to describe this process; I think he is being too kind. Farces often have some entertainment value, but I don't see anyone really enjoying themselves. Additionally, as noted by Collect, tit-for-tat admin topic bans don't work well even with symmetric opposition;

2887:

As noted by Thparkth, Lar meets the formal requirements for uninvolvedness as specified in the community sanctions. But as noted by Short Brigade Harvester Boris, some of his contributions are not consistent with the position of unbiased observer that most of us envision when reading the words

3035:

The second bulletpoint should be changed, but I note that Arbcom ensconsed it into cannon when it stated "... administrators, should strive to avoid conduct that might appear at first sight to violate policy. Examples include an administrator repeatedly making administrator actions that might

590:

BozMo and 2/0 have consistently disagreed with Lar, but for the most part they have worked together to come to consensus. None should be removed, but if Lar is removed, they all should be removed, because Lar is no more biased than the others; in fact, less than most, even accounting for his

964:

He does have a "pre-existing relationship" with WMC, mainly as the long-term recipient of snark. Lar should feel free to voluntarily treat himself as "involved" in this case if he feels there is any chance that his judgement is clouded, whether or not it strictly meets the definition in the

3102:

Well put. Lar has sensibly counselled others to "stay above the fray", but in instances linked above has clearly failed to display the detachment required to be perceived as impartial. Given Lar's assurances on the talk page of this RfC, my hope is that this problem will not recur. . .

3867:

I am a big believer in looking at things in context. This RfC is equivalent to Lar getting headbutted and then Lar being moderately incivil in response, when he could have headbutted back. Dunno if that makes sense or not. :) So yea, there is a background of provocation in a stressful

454:

This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response"

2828:

Agreed that he is to be commended for his efforts, and agreed that his conduct isn't untarnished. This view is consistent with my preference for Lar to voluntarily recuse himself (he may well be burnt out because of this area). WMC's conduct is another, likely more problematic,

943:

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside

3826:

problem in this area, and I would discourage anyone from looking at things in that way. But this kind of request is a symptom of the larger dysfunction, which continues to promote that dysfunction by going on the attack rather than dealing thoughtfully with ongoing problems.

2895:

They should also be aware that while they themselves may consider themselves perfectly neutral and may indeed try their best to act neutrally, other people cannot read their thoughts but only their words, and may therefore form a quite different impression. In such matters,

692:

I endorse point (3) particularly. I support (1) technically. Point (2) is hard to call since there is both fault on either side and also misunderstanding plus cultural differences between the two. The to and fro is unhelpful to the general atmosphere in the probation area.

2766:

Now, Lar's own conduct is far from exemplary, and even borders on uncivil. The diffs above in the summary of the dispute demonstrate this adequately. However, I call on all editors involved to examine their own consciences. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

4143:

A thoughtful and good analysis. While I might disagree with Lar about the relationship of "fairness" and "due weight", these are issues that should be resolved amicably. The behavioural concerns are well put, and my hope is that the recommendations will be followed. . .

4350:

I'm not sure what is asked for here. If you are looking for general example, I can provide them but they seem out of scope for this RFC. If you're looking for examples of the conflict with Lar, I would refer you to Cla68's view above to counter SBHB's earlier view.

1549:

Lar's consistent position is that he is an uninvolved administrator in the climate change probation because he does not edit articles in that topic area. It is true that he does not edit those articles, so he qualifies as "uninvolved" under that formal criterion.

125:

is commenting as an uninvolved admin when he has potentially goaded the editor who is being put forward for sanctions and whether Lar has also expressed views of bias in his application of these sanctions. Hence demonstrating that he should not act as uninvolved.

5203:. In my time on Knowledge (XXG) I've understood an uninvolved editor as someone without a strong opinion on the editors and the content in an area, i.e. as someone who can act unbiased and neutrally. The probation, on the other hand, explicitly spells out that 4258:

where one side can succinctly show how their edit/argument/proposal is upholding principles of sourcing, undue weight etc. WRT balancing articles, or the other side is off-beam. Please list links below. This would be the best way of enlightening outsiders.

957:; he is "not engaged in a current, direct, personal conflict on the topic with the user receiving sanctions". Lar never edits climate change articles, so can never be in conflict "on the topic". This definition is deliberately narrower than that found in 3455:

During the period of Lar's participation in the climate change probation/enforcement forum, he has been subjected to a lot of baiting and pile-on snarking, ridicule, snide comments, and sniping by a certain group of editors. In my opinion, they were/are

1828:

a tradition of following the spirit rather than the letter of the law, but there should be. It is very easy to debate the subtle meanings of each word in a policy, ArbCom decision, or edit summary. When we speak of user conduct, in fact, that's all we

327: 276: 3085:

Very much so, including the second bullet provided that we should not allow people to choose by accusation which administrators may comment on their behaviour. I also from personal experience heartily recommend taking a break for a month or two. -

524:

Bias: The charge seems to be that my view of how matters have progressed in the AGW article space (i.e. poorly), and why, is not universally accepted. Correct. It is not. But I'd refer you again to the comment by TS linked above. Excerpting again:

844:

says. As he says, we're all human, but I trust Lar for all his imperfection, and know he acts with the best interests of the project at heart, and that he always abides by policy, consensus and is thoughtful in discussions. Per FloNight as well.

2577:

I'm trying to lose weight, so I won't go so far as to say "farce". I'm even willing to AGF about the starting of the RfC. But I think there is an appearance of trying to remove someone who doesn't need to be removed from a content disagreement.

5009:

My mind's open about the "generally intelligent people" part, but I'll take it on faith. I strongly agree with the rest. The implied separation of personal opinions and admin actions actually extends to any content actions by all editors. --

4023:

for the most part I agree in the essentials with his interpretations of what that entails. I can personally attest that edits that might have the effect of driving off someone interested in enforcing this probation are not uncommon, nor is a

3312:

With the caveat that I have seen Lar act outside of consensus, though not in this area, and not inapropriately. I question the propriety of an "admin only" discussion area. Since when did being an admin give you special powers of discussion?

305:

After I (Polargeo) proposed this RfC Lar contacted me on my talkpage but I just cannot accept him acting as an uninvolved admin in this case and therefore I cannot see any common ground. I don't think this can be resolved by straight forward

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I would appreciate if you were to insulate yourself a bit better from what we all agree are nigh-interminable discussions of questionable value. People are going to disagree with you, sometimes quite strongly. There is no need to get in

5308:

Lar's refusal to even admit the possibility that those criticizing his actions could be acting in good faith and not because they "bear him animus" is a large part of the problem. The sentence beginning with "In short..." is spot on.

4083:

quite frequently, but I confess I have never been quite clear on what you think is wrong and what we can and should do about it. I gather that it has something to do with the cabal question, and I think that it is generally just as

4058:

or anything else) is not productive. Assigning people to groups when considering them does these editors a disservice; I am not a psychologist, but for more on the dangers of thinking of people as groups rather than individuals see

2296:

It was therefore astonishing to find that he'd been spending the time producing a long argument on the talk page of this request for comment, in which he has the discourtesy to Wikistalk my edits along with those of four other

859:

Lar is sound, and Lar is not "involved". He can be trusted to step back when required. This RfC is vexatious and rather obviously designed to try to gain advantage n the content dispute. Fie on those who created this nonsense.

1834:

the kind of situation that encourages the sort of maddening behavior he understandably dislikes. I would prefer for Lar to recuse himself rather than having to rely on yet another cumbersome page whose meaning can be debated

515:...those restrictions are being gamed by WMC in that his tone and inferences create an uncomfortable environment within discussion involving him and those editors who may be considered as editing to a AGW skeptic viewpoint 2300:

and describe me as part of "this group of editors" which, "with a clear interest in AGW articles, also has an interest in the enforcement page. However, that by itself is sufficient to show that there is an "AGW cadre"."

4463:

I specifically stay away from this topic, because of the behavior I am seeing exhibited towards Lar. However, my awareness of the dispute (coupled with most of the diffs provided above) is enough for me to submit a view.

1438:

Perhaps I'm considered involved, just as some consider Bozmo to be involved due to his involvement in the potentially multi-trillion dollar carbon credit market, but I think Lar's interactions can be summed up well by

4291:

at the time Cla68 checked it, but used to be what was apparently an impersonator pretending to be the subject and making comments on an unmoderated blog forum. That's just the worst part of it - please read the whole

1715:

Not all of these diffs are problematic, but I concur with the broader point, in the sense of my view below (i.e., this is better understood as a symptom of a systemic problem, rather than simply as admin misconduct).

4284:. In the first linked section, go to where Cla68 writes "I support Tillman's proposed addition to the article, it is reliably sourced..." One of the prime sources Tillman's proposed addition to the article used was 512:

of us are fools) He has a history of baiting others he is in conflict with until they explode. I am not the only person who holds this view. One of numerous comments about WMC's inability to get along with others:

5205:

For the purpose of imposing sanctions under this provision, an administrator will be considered "uninvolved" if he or she is not engaged in a current, direct, personal conflict on the topic with the user receiving

1341:

Agree except for the first eight words: "On balance, there is a significant issue here". It doesn't appear to be significant. I don't see his behavior as intimidating. Intimidating editors would be significant. --

784:

As Polargeo and WMC have shown, Lar has explicitly and specifically come out against the (presently) majority view on these pages. Contra Polargeo and WMC, that is not a sign of bias. Lar's summary is accurate.

2592:

who authorised cupcakes for Lar though? does bishonen know? - is this the start of a Lar / Bishonen socking scandal sure to rock the wiki to its core? Important questions, no doubt, but maybe for another RfC.

4830:

of these admins in terms of what they've done and how they could improve, or better yet of ways that editors could ourselves work to improve the editing environment, but this RfC is not set up to provide it.

4590:

There's been quite a lot of this. Editors concerned about this should be ready to cite diffs. By this point, an ArbCom case would be less of a time sink and less bothersome than continuing on without one. --

4295:

The second comment shows me asking where Cla68 found the quote "Mined" in one of his sources, which he actually failed to link to - he linked to a copy that was live two years prior, but had been archived in

138:

This is a summary written by users who have initiated the request for comment. It should spell out exactly what the changes they'd like to see in the user, or what questions of behavior should be the focus.

5544:. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page. 3461:

admins who are participating in the climate change probation enforcement board. I would say that the attempts to provoke Lar reflects much more poorly on those editors doing so than on Lar's responses.

997:

Albeit not on the gratuitous use of "snark" as a word therein. Almost all long-time admins have been involved with other long-time admins, and Lar does not have an abnormal amount of contact with WMC.

2304:

This clearly shows Lar promoting a battleground mentality – he then pays lip service to encouraging "the existence of "groups of related editors"... we call them "WikiProjects".", having just breached

2309:

own ideas of "levelling the playing field" to favour specific non-scientific viewpoints of a science based subject is unsuitable behaviour for an "uninvolved admin" in administering these sanctions

4030:

Lar, on balance you are doing a bang-up job, and I commend you for it. I would like to offer a few quibbles I have with your approach, and hope that you accept them in the spirit they are offered.

5082:

It's not really a new problem, though. Triers of fact always have an opinion, and it's their duty to both be unbiased and give the appearance of fairness. Otherwise the whole system breaks down.

109:

This is a summary written by users who are concerned by this user's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.

5227:

When it was pointed out to Lar that several editors in this very RfC have questioned his suitability for handling at least certain probation cases, he first dismisses them with the claim that

3255:

in action, and noting that Lar has not, AFAICT, shown a "viewpoint" concerning GW, and noting that I have both agreed with and disagreed with Lar in the past, I endorse this partial summary.

4953:

Admins are generally intelligent people. With intelligence comes the ability to make up one's own mind. Pretending that admins should not have opinions does a disservice to the encyclopedia.

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I don't follow the subject area enough to agree or disagree about the involvement histories of particular editors, but otherwise, this view fits very well with my own reading of this RfC. --

223:

Lar has consitantly tried to enforce extreme sanctions on WMC that are so extreme given the circumstances of the actual enforcement request that they cross the line into victimisation. e.g.

1580:

by tilting it more favorably toward one group of editors and less favorably to another. As such he comes to the sanctions not as an impartial arbiter, but as one with a preconceived agenda.

4381:, comments will be restricted to passersby or those directly involved with the battlelines developing in the usual way as has been already seen. Most of us have insufficient time to wade 3591:

were ArnoldReinhold and Tedder, and both were accused of involvement and thus intimidated into not taking further action against WMC. I will try to track down diffs and bring them here.

1557:

of policy is as important as following the letter of policy. A sample -- by no means complete -- of the points that raise concern over Lar's behavior in this regard includes where he:

313:. WMC has had many many interactions with Lar on both of their talkages which do not appear to have resolved anything. Providing diffs is not really worth it in this extensive conflict. 168:{Add summary here, but you must use the section below to certify or endorse it. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries, other than to endorse them.} 3916:

Lar here should themselves be removed from CC probation "uninvolved" status, on the grounds that supporting removal of Lar on such flimsy and partisan grounds reveals their own bias.

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really do not help argue that you have not pre-judged certain editors. Then again, I am a socially inept nerd who spends too much time editing Knowledge (XXG), so what would I know?

271:(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.) 199:(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.) 3950:

I agree it demonstrates abominably bad judgment that does call their admin status into question, but I've seen what I consider worse from a couple of them, and they remain admins.

3650:

Cla continues to do good work documenting abuses. Since it was drawn into question on the talk: my endorsement stands until further notice (Oddly, I do keep an eye on this page) ++

229:

Also Lar's extreme comment on using sanctions to reduce the control another admin and various editors supposedly have on the climate change area of wikipedia shows extreme bias.

4781:

Particularly paragraph 2, which is a direct refutation of the thesis propagated by some (for example SBHB in his support of Stephan Schulz's view) who ought to know better. ++

468:

That I have "goaded" WMC, a party who appears on the page (either as the subject of, or as the intiator of, numerous enforcement requests) with some considerable frequency.

2427:

is a farce. Pro-tip for the "cadre": don't all show up to the same discussions, support each other unconditionally, and then expect nobody to notice. Have a cupcake, Lar.

188:

Lar has continued to comment as an “uninvolved” administrator. The question is simply can Lar act as a neutral uninvolved admin in this case? Lar claims he is uninvolved.

4927:

Am always open to thoughtful evaluation of my actions, as well as those of other admins. Always. This RfC's initial section by WMC and Polargeo is hardly that, though. ++

5509:

I endorse this, but feel community sanctions in this area is a failed process and I feel that sanctions and administrator enforcement should be taken over by ArbCom.--

2290:

make his continued involvement in the process work reasonably well. I gave him time to respond, and having noted his proposal to defer consideration for time reasons,

5294:

Yes, it is possible that he is deliberately provoked. But seeing a cop behave incorrectly has a chilling effect, and I say that generally, not just on this person.

1026:

The first paragraph, absolutely. I was not aware of any previous history between Lar and WMC, but am not surprised if there was - both are long time contributors.

588:"Surfacing opinions and proposing differing remedies gets us to better solutions... We do not want to have only admins of one particular view doing the enforcing." 5145:

as a weapon in their fight over content. ScottyBerg is right that admins deciding on sanctions have a duty to act fairly and give due appearance of fairness. . .

4095:

feel. I believe that it is statements like this that have led people to question your involvement, and I think that a more hands-off approach would be beneficial.

521:

I need to do better at not taking his bait, and I freely acknowledge that. But I do not think this charge rises to the level of disqualifying me from enforcement.

1300:

However, he is also being a little imprudent in expressing his personal feelings about WMC on pages where we are trying to stay calm and balanced, and elsewhere.

383:

Lar has many times refused to accept that there is an issue. Providing individual diffs for all of these times is pointless. Lar simply denies any issue such as

45: 4027:. Attempts to game the probation by "playing the ref not the ball" should be resisted, whether they comprise nastygrams, sycophancy, or just general whingeing. 1297:

I do not doubt that Lar is acting in good faith ref WMC and believes he is keenly seeing misbehaviour which the rest of us are not quite managing to recognise.

2311:, and as he appears to be unable or unwilling to even consider reforming this behaviour I regrettably must conclude that he should not continue in that role. 328:

Knowledge (XXG) talk:General_sanctions/Climate_change_probation/Requests for enforcement#This is a matter that should be laid before the Arbitration Committee

2959:

Yes - while noting that Lar contributes to the consensus and not over-rides it, and has scrupulously avoided enacting any sanction within the probation area.

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From what I read I did not see Lar has ever abused his administrative tools.I neither see any evidences of a so called bias that influenced his decisions.--

4826:

Lar. Yet, every admin in this area probably takes this view. The problem of block-editing ginned up by conservative blogs is often discussed as a given.

3036:

reasonably be construed as reinforcing the administrator’s position in a content dispute, even where the administrator actually has no such intention..."

624:

I don't understand what the issue is here. As LHVU points out, Lar has not acted against administrative consensus, nor has he said that he would do so.

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and corrects some bad links and disagrees with how the sources are being presented. I don't see anything there that would be Lar's fault. The fact that

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I've known Lar for quite a long time now. I do not always agree with him however I have not seen any abuse here and I do not believe he would do so. --

96: 4688:

Knowledge (XXG) can not afford to shelter those who would drive off new contributors simply because they accidentally crossed the wrong editor's path.

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Gee, I guess. Perhaps you should write a new statement that says what you believe, as opposed to signing a statement that says what you don't believe.

1804:. If one has a position on a subject, then one should just go and edit it. I can't in good faith accept as 'uninvolved' when those diffs are supplied. 544:

admins to participate. And part of that is making the enforcement area itself a bit smoother and friendlier. To do that, we need to embrace all views.

5239:, but also, and significantly, as a sign that Lar automatically discards opinions at odds with his without even giving them reasonable consideration. 2838: 1847: 4038:

While we are here, I would like to dredge up an old case. I consider it water under the bridge at this point, but I still think you were unfair to

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Unfortunately, rich soil welcomes all seeds - regardless of what bare fruit they bear. Astute gardeners must recognize the weeds and remove them

961:

and specifically relates to conduct on the probation enforcement requests page. Thus Lar's acting as an uninvolved admin is done in good faith.

5235:, while admitting the he has not "examined the work of those folks to make any determination". I see this as pointing out a very broad lack of 4285: 121:

there is a section in which uninvolved administrators comment and ultimately decide on sanctions. The dispute is based on the issue of whether

1467:: I suggest that the letter of the policy actually be applied before the "spirit" (or anything else as subjective/manipulatable) is enforced. 5449:

It can be difficult to avoid developing involvement even with good faith, and this is what has has happened here 01:19, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

4047:'s revert restriction; I think that that is going reasonably well and would like to see the principle extended to more of the major players. 3716:(Noting that I am not an "endorser") - endorsement of a summary does not mean endorsement of every single element leading to that summary. 5214: 143:

Lar should be banned from acting as an uninvolved admin in the area of sanctions enforcement. Particularly with respect to cases involving

1054:

Concur except for the second paragraph's first sentence because of my lack of knowledge about that relationship. See also my view below.

4438:

For one not familiar with the issues it takes some reading over. I agree Lar's name isn't on that talk page at all. Maybe another then?

665:

I also see no evidence of abuse of sysop privileges, nor undue involvement or anything else that would preclude Lar from participating.

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After some thought, yes, I agree. Like Abd, he uses loaded language, and when challenged, backtracks into redefinitions. Likewise, he

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If Lar occasionally presents opinions on probation enforcement that differ greatly from the opinions of others, that is not a problem

387:

and then tries to negotiate and be open. This really desparately needs to be looked at by editors outside of the climate change area.

5213:

amount of scientific support on their side, as shown e.g. in the statements by all major National Academies of Science collected in

4415:

is what emerges as the first answer to Casliber's question seems to me to undermine the credibility of the complaint against Lar. --

2180:

With the proviso that the implications of "delusion" are harsher than necessary. Stephan's second sentence above is especially apt.

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Conclusion struck in the hope that recent discussion suggests progress towards resolving these concerns. Thanks for the comments,

1377:

I can't understand your offer to withdraw as "balance" against Lar. I don't regard you as acting in my favour - quite the reverse

5032:

one is going to both adjudicate and direct an article's content simultaneously is a different kettle of fish to this statement.

4588:

views extend beyond the bounds of acceptable discussion of the editor's behavior into the unacceptable realm of personal attacks

2961:

Striking; I cannot agree upon further consideration of the second bullet point which I feel is liable to be ruthlessly gamed.

48:, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the 5043: 4449: 4401: 4269: 4181: 3340:

Pretty much, though I think that grouping people does them a disservice and contributes to the problems in the topic area. -

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Sure. I wouldn't want to shoot for easy targets, so I'll provide you two links to edits of Cla68 that are not acceptable:

4107:

Thank you for reading my concerns. If you have any advice regarding how I can improve my approach, my talkpage is open. -

5350:

Partial endorse. I don't know Lar well enough to know if the "in short" sentence is descriptive of his behaviour here. --

4170:

The seven points listed above are good ones. This pointer is a good way forward on conduct regardless of other outcomes.

3718:

I would say that the attempts to provoke Lar reflects much more poorly on those editors doing so than on Lar's responses.

2915:

when they feel that they are no longer impartial, or even when they feel unable to display the detachment required to be

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Finally, admins should consider that longterm admin activity in an area of conflict may cause them to become subject to

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Agree mostly, except that it needs to be made clear that Lar is completely free to continue participating in this area.

251:

when he potentially has a grudge against a certain editors and has possibly shown bias in his comments in this section.

5242:

In a current probation case, a new administrator disagreed with Lar's preferred solution. Lar immediately declared him

3252: 812:

Mostly agreed. Really only noting this due to the fact that some are attempting to use this RFC to win other battles.

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both sides, and contributing to the smoke except for in the narrow confines of the judgement section is not helpful.

5173:

Sarek's view is obviously true. Somehow it is nevertheless sadly unsurprising that it's not more widely held here. ++

1413:

Note: this view is provided by someone currently banned from engaging in discussion on Climate Change related topics

3702:

Hmm, no i endorse that lar has been attacked and attempts made to bully him. Why are you talking about provocation?

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of us. I'm truly sorry to point this out, as it's not an excuse for imperfect behavior among others... but WMC is

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He is uninvolved but does hold an opinion (as most of us do) on the way in which global warming should be covered

404: 181: 144: 76: 4024: 3688:

Sorry, are all of you endorsers stating that you believe every one of the longlistof diffs shows "provication?"

1614:

any interest at all, then Lar's continued involvement in enforcing the climate change probation is problematic.

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anyone in a position of authority to recognize that it can be prudent to refrain from stating one's opinion. --

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discourage drawing up the battle lines. This is part of why I suggested including a discussion requirement in

186:

Knowledge (XXG):General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement#William M. Connolley (WMC)

5218: 4749:

Having experienced what it was like to be on the receiving end of the Intelligent Design group's disapproval

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happened. It is my view that Lar is uninvolved and acting in good faith and is being unfairly singled out.--

803: 5453: 958: 2200: 379:(Provide diffs to demonstrate that the disputed behavior continued after trying to resolve the dispute.) 5355: 5256:

change area, I do not see how Lar can usefully serve as a neutral, unbiased administrator in this area.

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as impartial, to withdraw temporarily or permanently from administrator actions in the area of conflict.

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Don't like the word "delusion", but yes, I can see the similarities with a (much less long-winded) Abd.

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This statement seems a fair, balanced and sensible interpretation of the situation with good advice.--

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Whatever you think is the truth of the matter, grouping editors together and referring to them as a

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Delusion is not a good word, misconception or similar is better but I endorse the general viewpoint

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Agree with (1) and (2). However, trying to restore 'balance' by withdrawing as actors is confused.--

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Yup. To JWB, there is a difference between having an opinion and stating it regarding the subject

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bearing in mind he made this comment in a section that should only be edited by uninvolved admins.

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tried to discuss some of these issues with Lar. Here are diffs of KC's part of the converation:

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Some of the discussion in which Lar has engaged as an uninvolved admin was moved to the talkpage

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That I have expressed bias in my views about how various enforcement actions should be resolved.

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Sort of. I think if Lar were to recuse himself or refrain from commenting on issues related to

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Endorse, acknowledging the problem of having an opinion while acting on facts in evidence. -

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creating something worse. I think clearly we have multiple competing factions in this area.

4019: 2912:(except where required to voice them to discuss or explain specific enforcement actions); and 2100:

Not sure if he sees it as being led by WMC, but he clearly has this discourteous and uncivil

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Endorsing stronger statement than I was previously comfortable with as Lar has gone against

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is the salient part which the endorsers are agreeing with. Is that now a tad more clear?

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Seeing as "farce" is French for "stuffing", cupcakes seem to suddenly make more sense ... (

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Well...yeah, I thought this was pretty well understood, but worth reiterating I suspect.

2117:

strike "delusion" as rather strong, I think he's entrenched in a mistaken analysis. . .

277:

Knowledge (XXG) talk:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement

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page, Lar should not edit the enforcement page... Otherwise, some good general points.

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People in authority need to avoid labeling, name calling, and the appearance of bias.

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in what to me looks like a clear attempt to denigrate the opinion provided. During a

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True as far as the statement goes, but the kicker as as JohnWBarber points out - i.e

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I endorse this summary as a way of making a point of the frivilousness of this RFC.--

3828: 3655: 3638: 3382: 3300: 3165: 2976: 2802: 2736: 2668: 2662: 2552: 2492: 2344: 2269:"Delusion" seems too strong, but labeling as described gives the appearance of bias. 2167: 2024: 2014: 1920: 1805: 1652: 1514: 1226: 1196: 1115: 966: 868: 862: 828: 719: 559: 417: 360: 356: 314: 280: 252: 148: 70: 330:

suggestion that this should go to arbitration with significant discussion following.

5406: 4703: 4514: 4191: 3721: 3256: 3117: 2451: 2059:. This sort of delusion is not good, specially when it is being held by an admin. 2039: 1934: 1891: 999: 606:

an experienced admin, familiar with policy and experienced in dealing with issues,

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Knowledge (XXG):General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement

178:

Knowledge (XXG):General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement

119:

Knowledge (XXG):General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement

4103:™, especially on a WT discussion whose utility is questionable in the first place. 1605:

sarcastically berates an editor for having opposed his reconfirmation as steward.

1568:

Advocates a specific content position while engaged on the enforcement talk page.

1273:

Late endorse, per lack of a satisfactory response to Casliber's request below. --

95:

signed comments other than your own view or an endorsement should be directed to

91:

Users should not edit other people's summaries or views, except to endorse them.

5497: 5476: 5424: 5324: 5217:, the IPCC reports, and the recent independent review by the US National Academy 3783: 3327: 3057: 2706: 2564: 1863: 1773: 1127: 921: 906:

bans, so it's in their own interests to make sure the probation isn't derailed.

705: 3408:

Late endorse, per lack of a satisfactory answer to Casliber's request below. --

465:

That I am not an "uninvolved admin" within some particular meaning of the term.

220:. This situation is disruptive to Knowledge (XXG) and climate change sanctions. 5054: 4755: 4736: 4733: 4561: 4548: 4352: 3959:

A bit hyperbolic, but something that should be noted by the proposed targets.

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An excellent statement of the general problem. Applicable here (as elsewhere)

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a very civil person. He does not suffer fools gladly. (and by his definition,

461:

If I understand this RfC/U correctly there are three major contentions to it:

5540:

signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to

2216:

Lar has explained that he failed to notice Cla68 calling the edit vandalism.

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Lar really seems to believe that a cadre exists, and that WMC is leading it

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Thank you very much for taking the effort to pull all of these together. ++

2995:

Could quibble, but reasonable overall. (And thanks for introducing me to a

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is having rather the opposite effect of calming down a heated topic area.

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Though not necessarily the conclusion, I share many of these concerns. -

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my goat from time to time, which I regret. But he has gotten the goat of

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Including the part about being imperfect. We are all of us imperfect. ++

1561:

Derides a group of editors in the enforcement area as "socially inept."

4304:

exactly? Why is he calling Tilman's obviously poor sourcing reliable?

3674:

Quite shocking really, the amount of abuse lar has had to put up with

243:{list the policies and guidelines that apply to the disputed conduct} 3822:

elsewhere), and I don't believe WMC or those who support him are the

2702: 4067:. When you voice these concerns, you have the effect of encouraging 2907:

For these reasons, I advise all admins (and, in this case, Lar) to:

1553:

But there is a long tradition on Knowledge (XXG) that following the

4390:

the impact on the actual content) some examples would be prudent.

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All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again

3605:

Yes, and this is quite clear from anyone who is really watching.

357:

User_talk:Lar#220_questions.2C_221_questions.2C_whatever_it_takes

5549:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.

4496:(Added late) As I wrote this, of course I endorse my own view. 2621:

As long as Lar is willing to share some of cupcake with me :)--

953:

Lar is uninvolved per the definition given in the terms of the

275:

The issue has been discussed extensively by several editors on

4239: 247:

Lar is acting as an "uninvolved admin" against convention in

2904:

by one side of the dispute unless they take very good care.

2547:

I expect a cupcake on my talk page when this is all over. ++

2415: 1488:

didn't bring these silly enforcement requests against him.

1575:

Makes no secret of his desire to "level the playing field"

955:

Knowledge (XXG):General_sanctions/Climate_change_probation

115:

Knowledge (XXG):General sanctions/Climate change probation

309:

The idea of taking this to RfC has been backed by WMC at

294:

on Lar's talkpage resulted in denial of the problem from

2314:

Strike conclusion in light of RfC talk page discussion,

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I think it's a trifle idealistic to claim that there's

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and wedded to the principles of editing Knowledge (XXG)

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without any resolution and as an example was raised by

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Lar claims to be an "uninvolved administrator" in the

5220:. The other side has a few columnists, bloggers, and 29:

The following discussion is an archived record of an

4326:

provides clear examples of the basis for concern. -

2450:

Nice cupcake. Nit the first such RFC, to be sure.

1450:

while preserving the decency of their plot. Cheers.

57:

page will be deleted. The current date and time is:

1430:This is a frivolous request - just as Polargo made 1356:More light less heat, or whatever the saying is. - 919:

Zero evidence that Lar is in any way 'involved'. --

397:{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute} 5233:"bear him animus and pile on on general principle" 4377:Okay, my theory is that if we just stick to the 3912:I would like to propose that all admins who vote 2515:Endorse, it is a farce. Can i have some cake now 1140:In essence, but prefer Sandstein's view below. - 46:Knowledge (XXG):Requests for comment/User conduct 4897:is now an RfC set up to investigate these issues 4881:I didn't see any aspersion cast here at 2/0. -- 1293:On balance, there is a significant issue here: 4472:booting Lar doesn't make the situation better. 205:An argument is that some edits by Lar, such as 39:No further edits should be made to this page. 4851:Pretty much, especially the final sentence. - 4324:#Outside view by Short Brigade Harvester Boris 5555:No further edits should be made to this page. 5106:, and the subject of how the matter is being 4385:the diffs to try and figure out what was the 1603:While engaged on the enforcement page itself, 1545:Outside view by Short Brigade Harvester Boris 1484:: Perhaps Lar's "delusion" could be cured if 8: 5533:Reminder to use the talk page for discussion 2491:Five High Sugar, and pass the other one too 5251:to make his claim anything but just wrong). 1589:by lumping editors together as "the cadre," 1416:and is probably in violation of that ban -- 392:Users certifying the basis for this dispute 2007:Unfortunately this is what has developed. 840:nonsensical and I don't believe it's what 375:Evidence of failing to resolve the dispute 586:I would stress this from Lar's point #3: 480:many other arbitration enforcement pages. 267:Evidence of trying to resolve the dispute 209:could be conceived as provocation of WMC. 117:. In the enforcement of these sanctions 2607:If it wasn't so funny it would be sad. 7: 5215:scientific opinion on climate change 4754:, I think this summary is accurate. 2023:Current evidence indicates a bias. 434:Other users who endorse this summary 176:’s status as an uninvolved admin on 18:Knowledge (XXG):Requests for comment 878:I see this RFC as a symptom of the 180:. In particular the case involving 4867:Absent the aspersion cast at 2/0. 3936:Agreed, but this will not happen. 3176:Outside(?) view by LessHeard vanU 2529:Lar hasn't been perfect, but this 239:Applicable policies and guidelines 24: 5028:an opinion on a subject but then 484:I will deal with these in order: 5486:Users who endorse this summary: 5259:Users who endorse this summary: 4956:Users who endorse this summary: 4833:Users who endorse this summary: 4691:Users who endorse this summary: 4685:have made any mistakes at all. 4123:Users who endorse this summary: 3919:Users who endorse this summary: 3573:Users who endorse this summary: 3195:Users who endorse this summary: 2923:Users who endorse this summary: 2780:Users who endorse this summary: 2328:Users who endorse this summary: 2069:Users who endorse this summary: 1953:points 2 & 3 per Casliber. - 1647:With the exception that I think 1617:Users who endorse this summary: 1491:Users who endorse this summary: 1312:Users who endorse this summary: 979:Users who endorse this summary: 678:Agree from beginning to end. -- 550:Users who endorse this summary: 31:user conduct request for comment 4492:Users who endorse this summary 3512:Short Brigade Harvester Boris: 2431:Users who endorse this summary 172:Several users have questioned 59:15:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC) 1: 5311:Short Brigade Harvester Boris 4734:"Yes, we are all individuals" 3013:I can go along with this. -- 3001:Short Brigade Harvester Boris 2888:"uninvolved administrator". 2754:Outside view by The Wordsmith 2182:Short Brigade Harvester Boris 1802:(at a minimum WRT this topic) 1622:Short Brigade Harvester Boris 1407:Outside view by TheGoodLocust 475:... and one desired outcome: 355:. This currently starts at: 352:, and of Lar's last comment: 195:Evidence of disputed behavior 44:In order to remain listed at 4459:Outside view from Horologium 2944:kudos to these sage words -- 2253:this set of interactions. - 5542:this page's discussion page 4081:levelling the playing field 2285:Outside view by dave souza 2115:20:58, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 2052:Outside view by Enric Naval 97:this page's discussion page 5572: 4061:Out-group homogeneity bias 4018:I have been on top of the 2353:21:43, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 2340:21:24, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 2096:16:10, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 2082:10:07, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 2062:It starts reminding me of 1699:20:56, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 1687:16:09, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 1674:13:14, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 1661:11:29, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 1643:10:07, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 1505:23:08, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 1486:accused meatpuppets of WMC 1477:04:19, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 1460:18:20, 29 April 2010 (UTC) 1387:13:18, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 1337:10:07, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 1324:13:50, 29 April 2010 (UTC) 1050:23:08, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 1036:12:43, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 1022:15:00, 29 April 2010 (UTC) 1008:13:26, 29 April 2010 (UTC) 993:13:04, 29 April 2010 (UTC) 975:12:29, 29 April 2010 (UTC) 620:12:53, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 601:11:19, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 582:10:22, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 567:02:11, 30 April 2010 (UTC) 426:12:24, 29 April 2010 (UTC) 413:11:53, 29 April 2010 (UTC) 323:10:06, 29 April 2010 (UTC) 261:10:14, 29 April 2010 (UTC) 157:10:06, 29 April 2010 (UTC) 5244:"not entirely uninvolved" 4065:Implicit Association Test 2883:Outside view by Sandstein 2412:Outside view by MZMcBride 2250:User:William M. Connolley 2214:) 12:37, 6 May 2010 (UTC) 311:User talk:Polargeo/LarRfC 182:User:William M. Connolley 145:User:William M. Connolley 5552:Please do not modify it. 5527:18:43, 24 May 2010 (UTC) 5505:20:23, 22 May 2010 (UTC) 5445:01:01, 23 May 2010 (UTC) 5432:19:34, 22 May 2010 (UTC) 5413:19:17, 22 May 2010 (UTC) 5399:20:53, 21 May 2010 (UTC) 5387:13:46, 21 May 2010 (UTC) 5374:13:09, 21 May 2010 (UTC) 5360:12:46, 21 May 2010 (UTC) 5346:10:07, 21 May 2010 (UTC) 5333:02:36, 21 May 2010 (UTC) 5319:01:02, 21 May 2010 (UTC) 5304:00:53, 21 May 2010 (UTC) 5289:00:02, 21 May 2010 (UTC) 5273:23:47, 20 May 2010 (UTC) 5222:hundreds of sock puppets 5201:climate change probation 5186:17:50, 3 June 2010 (UTC) 5169:05:41, 22 May 2010 (UTC) 5154:21:11, 21 May 2010 (UTC) 5136:00:52, 21 May 2010 (UTC) 5120:20:47, 20 May 2010 (UTC) 5092:19:16, 20 May 2010 (UTC) 5078:18:21, 20 May 2010 (UTC) 5063:00:38, 20 May 2010 (UTC) 5048:01:50, 20 May 2010 (UTC) 5020:23:48, 19 May 2010 (UTC) 5005:06:05, 19 May 2010 (UTC) 4997:02:00, 19 May 2010 (UTC) 4988:Short and to-the-point. 4984:01:58, 19 May 2010 (UTC) 4970:21:22, 18 May 2010 (UTC) 4940:17:48, 3 June 2010 (UTC) 4923:16:41, 24 May 2010 (UTC) 4909:01:11, 23 May 2010 (UTC) 4891:23:44, 19 May 2010 (UTC) 4877:12:52, 14 May 2010 (UTC) 4863:20:45, 13 May 2010 (UTC) 4847:17:29, 13 May 2010 (UTC) 4808:17:41, 3 June 2010 (UTC) 4794:17:37, 3 June 2010 (UTC) 4777:21:19, 18 May 2010 (UTC) 4764:23:20, 13 May 2010 (UTC) 4745:13:03, 12 May 2010 (UTC) 4729:11:07, 12 May 2010 (UTC) 4712:21:27, 10 May 2010 (UTC) 4699:20:37, 10 May 2010 (UTC) 4667:19:40, 7 June 2010 (UTC) 4653:18:18, 7 June 2010 (UTC) 4640:17:43, 3 June 2010 (UTC) 4623:18:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC) 4601:23:55, 19 May 2010 (UTC) 4583:21:19, 18 May 2010 (UTC) 4570:23:10, 13 May 2010 (UTC) 4557:13:03, 12 May 2010 (UTC) 4544:12:58, 12 May 2010 (UTC) 4531:20:37, 10 May 2010 (UTC) 4510:11:07, 12 May 2010 (UTC) 4247:20:20, 28 May 2010 (UTC) 4234:21:17, 18 May 2010 (UTC) 4221:16:14, 15 May 2010 (UTC) 4020:climate change probation 4008:18:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC) 3986:21:16, 18 May 2010 (UTC) 3973:11:07, 12 May 2010 (UTC) 3955:20:37, 10 May 2010 (UTC) 3899:18:16, 7 June 2010 (UTC) 3886:18:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC) 3863:01:57, 19 May 2010 (UTC) 3850:21:15, 18 May 2010 (UTC) 3837:04:31, 13 May 2010 (UTC) 3817:11:07, 12 May 2010 (UTC) 3800:20:37, 10 May 2010 (UTC) 3619:Keep collecting 'em. -- 3445:18:12, 7 June 2010 (UTC) 3432:20:27, 24 May 2010 (UTC) 3418:19:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC) 3404:21:14, 18 May 2010 (UTC) 3391:04:38, 13 May 2010 (UTC) 3377:11:07, 12 May 2010 (UTC) 3360:20:37, 10 May 2010 (UTC) 3170:01:21, 28 May 2010 (UTC) 3154:18:11, 24 May 2010 (UTC) 3132:11:38, 14 May 2010 (UTC) 2877:21:13, 18 May 2010 (UTC) 2864:23:05, 13 May 2010 (UTC) 2851:20:37, 10 May 2010 (UTC) 2748:13:20, 8 June 2010 (UTC) 2724:18:14, 7 June 2010 (UTC) 2711:16:20, 31 May 2010 (UTC) 2697:17:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC) 2674:10:17, 24 May 2010 (UTC) 2656:11:07, 12 May 2010 (UTC) 2639:20:37, 10 May 2010 (UTC) 2279:19:05, 20 May 2010 (UTC) 2046:12:28, 28 May 2010 (UTC) 2033:03:56, 28 May 2010 (UTC) 2019:01:22, 28 May 2010 (UTC) 2003:01:01, 23 May 2010 (UTC) 1990:18:05, 21 May 2010 (UTC) 1977:19:03, 20 May 2010 (UTC) 1800:Per diffs 12,13, and 14 1539:11:07, 12 May 2010 (UTC) 1401:19:19, 12 May 2010 (UTC) 1283:19:26, 24 May 2010 (UTC) 1269:17:42, 24 May 2010 (UTC) 1247:07:00, 21 May 2010 (UTC) 1233:01:03, 21 May 2010 (UTC) 1222:01:54, 19 May 2010 (UTC) 1208:00:38, 19 May 2010 (UTC) 1190:21:10, 18 May 2010 (UTC) 1177:11:07, 12 May 2010 (UTC) 1160:20:37, 10 May 2010 (UTC) 949:Outside view by Thparkth 932:00:07, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 915:18:46, 27 May 2010 (UTC) 901:17:38, 24 May 2010 (UTC) 874:09:39, 24 May 2010 (UTC) 855:07:00, 21 May 2010 (UTC) 835:01:31, 21 May 2010 (UTC) 822:21:12, 18 May 2010 (UTC) 808:21:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC) 795:19:14, 12 May 2010 (UTC) 780:10:58, 12 May 2010 (UTC) 763:20:37, 10 May 2010 (UTC) 226:and that is one of many. 104:Statement of the dispute 36:Please do not modify it. 5229:"mostly, they are not " 4523:21:32, 9 May 2010 (UTC) 4488:21:05, 9 May 2010 (UTC) 4454:21:22, 8 May 2010 (UTC) 4425:18:56, 8 May 2010 (UTC) 4406:03:28, 8 May 2010 (UTC) 4361:01:10, 8 May 2010 (UTC) 4338:00:47, 8 May 2010 (UTC) 4314:23:36, 7 May 2010 (UTC) 4274:23:28, 7 May 2010 (UTC) 4206:10:08, 8 May 2010 (UTC) 4186:23:11, 7 May 2010 (UTC) 4166:19:27, 7 May 2010 (UTC) 4153:19:21, 7 May 2010 (UTC) 4139:18:11, 7 May 2010 (UTC) 4119:18:11, 7 May 2010 (UTC) 3946:22:17, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 3932:16:29, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 3792:08:41, 6 May 2010 (UTC) 3779:21:50, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 3760:13:30, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 3744:11:59, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 3730:11:50, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 3712:11:48, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 3698:11:40, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 3684:10:40, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 3663:10:22, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 3646:02:59, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 3629:00:21, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 3615:22:25, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 3601:15:09, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 3586:12:42, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 3352:18:17, 7 May 2010 (UTC) 3336:08:41, 6 May 2010 (UTC) 3323:12:14, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 3308:02:59, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 3291:00:25, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 3278:00:10, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 3265:10:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC) 3247:18:08, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 3235:10:25, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 3222:01:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 3209:23:50, 1 May 2010 (UTC) 3191:23:50, 1 May 2010 (UTC) 3112:19:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC) 3098:18:22, 7 May 2010 (UTC) 3081:15:41, 6 May 2010 (UTC) 3065:16:43, 5 May 2010 (UTC) 3046:12:17, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 3031:00:24, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 3009:21:19, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 2991:21:16, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 2971:23:28, 1 May 2010 (UTC) 2954:22:23, 1 May 2010 (UTC) 2940:21:28, 1 May 2010 (UTC) 2843:13:35, 5 May 2010 (UTC) 2824:21:39, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 2810:02:58, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 2793:17:05, 1 May 2010 (UTC) 2776:17:05, 1 May 2010 (UTC) 2631:14:20, 5 May 2010 (UTC) 2617:09:31, 5 May 2010 (UTC) 2603:09:03, 5 May 2010 (UTC) 2588:21:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 2573:14:01, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 2560:02:57, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 2543:00:08, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 2525:13:37, 3 May 2010 (UTC) 2511:18:08, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 2499:16:08, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 2487:01:15, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 2474:17:09, 1 May 2010 (UTC) 2460:16:58, 1 May 2010 (UTC) 2446:15:18, 1 May 2010 (UTC) 2403:19:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC) 2385:18:26, 7 May 2010 (UTC) 2369:15:40, 6 May 2010 (UTC) 2323:19:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC) 2265:18:31, 7 May 2010 (UTC) 2244:15:39, 6 May 2010 (UTC) 2226:19:35, 6 May 2010 (UTC) 2190:13:32, 3 May 2010 (UTC) 2176:12:57, 3 May 2010 (UTC) 2162:07:25, 3 May 2010 (UTC) 2140:18:39, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 2126:20:12, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 1963:19:32, 9 May 2010 (UTC) 1949:10:26, 8 May 2010 (UTC) 1929:18:35, 7 May 2010 (UTC) 1916:18:34, 7 May 2010 (UTC) 1900:15:55, 6 May 2010 (UTC) 1887:15:38, 6 May 2010 (UTC) 1871:16:35, 5 May 2010 (UTC) 1852:13:30, 5 May 2010 (UTC) 1820:04:52, 5 May 2010 (UTC) 1796:12:18, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 1782:18:09, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 1769:04:02, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 1756:22:27, 1 May 2010 (UTC) 1742:22:07, 1 May 2010 (UTC) 1729:21:55, 1 May 2010 (UTC) 1711:10:47, 1 May 2010 (UTC) 1630:12:57, 1 May 2010 (UTC) 1522:02:56, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 1424:22:10, 1 May 2010 (UTC) 1368:18:39, 7 May 2010 (UTC) 1352:00:17, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 1309:to maintain balance . 1152:19:09, 7 May 2010 (UTC) 1136:14:00, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 1123:02:55, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 1106:00:26, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 1093:00:14, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 1080:18:06, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 1067:21:48, 1 May 2010 (UTC) 755:20:55, 5 May 2010 (UTC) 741:20:20, 5 May 2010 (UTC) 728:20:15, 5 May 2010 (UTC) 714:13:59, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 701:09:49, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 688:00:30, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 674:18:04, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 661:13:32, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 648:12:21, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 634:11:59, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 369:08:08, 1 May 2010 (UTC) 4974:Endorse last sentence. 4025:battleground mentality 2420: 2152:in project space... -- 1587:battleground mentality 4040:KimDabelsteinPetersen 2814:Per Lar, actually. -- 2419: 1435:fine administrator. 1289:Outside view by BozMo 4045:William M. Connolley 2132:William M. Connolley 1666:William M. Connolley 1379:William M. Connolley 591:bickering with WMC. 405:William M. Connolley 218:User:KillerChihuahua 4253:Request by Casliber 4079:You use the phrase 1592:the "science club," 5248:lengthy discussion 4895:Noting that there 4190:Yes, well said, -- 3253:WP:False consensus 2902:regulatory capture 2898:perception is key. 2421: 2293:left it at that. 5470: 5456:comment added by 5442: 5287: 5143:civil POV pushing 5134: 4861: 4727: 4508: 4486: 4336: 4137: 4117: 3971: 3815: 3750:@Hipocrite: yes. 3552:Stephan Schulz: 3375: 3350: 3096: 2938: 2672: 2654: 2464:Sugar high five. 2405: 2383: 2325: 2263: 2000: 1914: 1767: 1727: 1537: 1427: 1366: 1175: 1150: 1065: 929: 913: 872: 778: 554:As respondent. ++ 292:User:Tony Sidaway 113:This RfC regards 5563: 5554: 5524: 5516: 5513: 5500: 5495: 5469: 5450: 5440: 5427: 5422: 5409: 5403:well summarized 5281: 5128: 4995: 4946:Outside view by 4855: 4814:Outside view by 4723: 4720: 4673:Outside view by 4620: 4612: 4609: 4504: 4501: 4482: 4479: 4330: 4201: 4196: 4131: 4111: 4005: 3997: 3994: 3967: 3964: 3905:Outside view by 3883: 3875: 3872: 3811: 3808: 3371: 3368: 3344: 3245: 3151: 3143: 3140: 3127: 3122: 3090: 3060: 3055: 2937: 2935: 2928: 2791: 2774: 2744: 2740: 2732: 2694: 2686: 2683: 2666: 2660:Succinctly put. 2650: 2647: 2509: 2393: 2377: 2313: 2257: 2042: 1998: 1944: 1939: 1908: 1866: 1861: 1763: 1726: 1724: 1717: 1533: 1530: 1411: 1360: 1266: 1258: 1255: 1204: 1199: 1171: 1168: 1144: 1078: 1064: 1062: 1055: 926: 924: 912: 910: 898: 890: 887: 866: 774: 771: 672: 656: 488:Uninvolvedness: 60: 38: 5571: 5570: 5566: 5565: 5564: 5562: 5561: 5560: 5559: 5550: 5535: 5520: 5514: 5511: 5498: 5493: 5480: 5451: 5425: 5420: 5405: 5197: 4989: 4951: 4819: 4718: 4678: 4616: 4610: 4607: 4499: 4477: 4461: 4255: 4238:Concur with my 4197: 4192: 4084:antiproductive. 4016: 4001: 3995: 3992: 3962: 3910: 3879: 3873: 3870: 3806: 3453: 3366: 3239: 3178: 3147: 3141: 3138: 3123: 3118: 3058: 3053: 2931: 2929: 2885: 2785: 2768: 2756: 2742: 2734: 2730: 2690: 2684: 2681: 2645: 2503: 2414: 2287: 2054: 2038: 1940: 1935: 1864: 1859: 1786:Per Sandstein. 1761:KillerChihuahua 1720: 1718: 1547: 1528: 1409: 1291: 1262: 1256: 1253: 1202: 1197: 1166: 1072: 1058: 1056: 951: 940: 922: 908: 894: 888: 885: 769: 666: 654: 492:comment by TS ( 451: 436: 394: 377: 335:KillerChihuahua 269: 241: 197: 165: 135: 133:Desired outcome 106: 58: 52:dispute with a 34: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 5569: 5567: 5558: 5557: 5534: 5531: 5530: 5529: 5507: 5479: 5473: 5472: 5471: 5447: 5434: 5415: 5401: 5389: 5376: 5366:Snowman frosty 5362: 5348: 5335: 5321: 5306: 5291: 5275: 5265:Stephan Schulz 5253: 5252: 5240: 5225: 5196: 5194:Stephan Schulz 5190: 5189: 5188: 5171: 5156: 5138: 5122: 5112:LessHeard vanU 5098: 5097: 5096: 5095: 5094: 5050: 5022: 5007: 4999: 4986: 4972: 4950: 4944: 4943: 4942: 4925: 4911: 4901:LessHeard vanU 4893: 4879: 4865: 4849: 4818: 4812: 4811: 4810: 4796: 4779: 4766: 4747: 4731: 4714: 4701: 4677: 4671: 4670: 4669: 4655: 4642: 4625: 4603: 4585: 4572: 4559: 4546: 4533: 4525: 4512: 4460: 4457: 4436: 4435: 4434: 4433: 4432: 4431: 4430: 4429: 4428: 4427: 4368: 4367: 4366: 4365: 4364: 4363: 4343: 4342: 4341: 4340: 4317: 4316: 4301: 4293: 4254: 4251: 4250: 4249: 4236: 4223: 4213:LessHeard vanU 4208: 4188: 4168: 4155: 4141: 4105: 4104: 4096: 4092: 4085: 4077: 4048: 4036: 4015: 4014:View by 2over0 4012: 4011: 4010: 3988: 3975: 3957: 3948: 3934: 3909: 3903: 3902: 3901: 3888: 3868:environment.-- 3865: 3852: 3839: 3819: 3802: 3794: 3781: 3766: 3765: 3764: 3763: 3762: 3748: 3747: 3746: 3714: 3672: 3671: 3670: 3669: 3668: 3631: 3617: 3603: 3588: 3566: 3565: 3549: 3548: 3532: 3531: 3509: 3508: 3452: 3449: 3448: 3447: 3434: 3420: 3406: 3393: 3379: 3362: 3354: 3338: 3325: 3310: 3293: 3280: 3267: 3249: 3237: 3224: 3211: 3201:LessHeard vanU 3183:LessHeard vanU 3177: 3174: 3173: 3172: 3156: 3134: 3114: 3100: 3083: 3067: 3048: 3033: 3011: 2993: 2973: 2963:LessHeard vanU 2956: 2942: 2921: 2920: 2913: 2884: 2881: 2880: 2879: 2866: 2853: 2845: 2826: 2812: 2795: 2755: 2752: 2751: 2750: 2726: 2713: 2699: 2676: 2658: 2641: 2633: 2619: 2605: 2595:Privatemusings 2590: 2575: 2562: 2545: 2527: 2513: 2501: 2489: 2476: 2462: 2448: 2436:Om nom nom. -- 2433: 2432: 2413: 2410: 2409: 2408: 2407: 2406: 2388: 2387: 2371: 2355: 2342: 2286: 2283: 2282: 2281: 2267: 2246: 2230: 2229: 2228: 2178: 2164: 2154:Stephan Schulz 2142: 2129: 2098: 2084: 2053: 2050: 2049: 2048: 2035: 2021: 2005: 1992: 1979: 1965: 1951: 1931: 1918: 1902: 1889: 1873: 1854: 1822: 1798: 1784: 1771: 1758: 1748:Stephan Schulz 1744: 1734:Snowman frosty 1731: 1713: 1701: 1689: 1676: 1663: 1645: 1632: 1611: 1610: 1599: 1598: 1595:and a "cabal." 1582: 1581: 1572: 1571: 1565: 1564: 1546: 1543: 1542: 1541: 1524: 1507: 1408: 1405: 1404: 1403: 1389: 1371: 1370: 1354: 1339: 1326: 1302: 1301: 1298: 1290: 1287: 1286: 1285: 1271: 1249: 1235: 1224: 1210: 1192: 1179: 1162: 1154: 1138: 1125: 1108: 1095: 1082: 1069: 1052: 1038: 1028:LessHeard vanU 1024: 1010: 995: 950: 947: 939: 936: 935: 934: 917: 903: 876: 857: 837: 824: 810: 797: 782: 765: 757: 743: 730: 716: 703: 690: 676: 663: 650: 636: 622: 612:LessHeard vanU 603: 584: 569: 548: 547: 546: 545: 531: 530: 522: 497: 482: 481: 473: 472: 469: 466: 450: 447: 446: 445: 444: 443: 441: 435: 432: 431: 430: 429: 428: 415: 393: 390: 389: 388: 376: 373: 372: 371: 331: 325: 307: 303: 286: 268: 265: 264: 263: 240: 237: 236: 235: 234: 233: 227: 221: 210: 196: 193: 191: 164: 161: 160: 159: 134: 131: 129: 105: 102: 88: 87: 86: 63: 42: 41: 25: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 5568: 5556: 5553: 5547: 5546: 5545: 5543: 5539: 5532: 5528: 5525: 5523: 5517: 5508: 5506: 5503: 5502: 5501: 5496: 5489: 5488: 5487: 5484: 5478: 5474: 5467: 5463: 5459: 5455: 5448: 5446: 5443: 5438: 5435: 5433: 5430: 5429: 5428: 5423: 5416: 5414: 5411: 5408: 5402: 5400: 5397: 5393: 5390: 5388: 5384: 5380: 5377: 5375: 5371: 5367: 5363: 5361: 5357: 5353: 5349: 5347: 5343: 5339: 5336: 5334: 5330: 5326: 5322: 5320: 5316: 5312: 5307: 5305: 5301: 5297: 5292: 5290: 5285: 5280: 5276: 5274: 5270: 5266: 5262: 5261: 5260: 5257: 5249: 5245: 5241: 5238: 5234: 5230: 5226: 5223: 5219: 5216: 5211: 5210: 5209: 5207: 5202: 5195: 5191: 5187: 5184: 5180: 5176: 5172: 5170: 5166: 5162: 5157: 5155: 5152: 5148: 5144: 5139: 5137: 5132: 5127: 5123: 5121: 5117: 5113: 5109: 5105: 5104: 5099: 5093: 5089: 5085: 5081: 5080: 5079: 5075: 5071: 5066: 5065: 5064: 5060: 5056: 5051: 5049: 5045: 5042: 5039: 5035: 5031: 5027: 5023: 5021: 5017: 5013: 5008: 5006: 5003: 5000: 4998: 4994: 4993: 4992:The Wordsmith 4987: 4985: 4981: 4977: 4973: 4971: 4967: 4963: 4962:SarekOfVulcan 4959: 4958: 4957: 4954: 4949: 4948:SarekOfVulcan 4945: 4941: 4938: 4934: 4930: 4926: 4924: 4920: 4916: 4912: 4910: 4906: 4902: 4898: 4894: 4892: 4888: 4884: 4880: 4878: 4874: 4870: 4866: 4864: 4859: 4854: 4850: 4848: 4844: 4840: 4836: 4835: 4834: 4831: 4827: 4823: 4817: 4813: 4809: 4805: 4801: 4797: 4795: 4792: 4788: 4784: 4780: 4778: 4774: 4770: 4769:SarekOfVulcan 4767: 4765: 4761: 4757: 4753: 4751: 4748: 4746: 4742: 4738: 4735: 4732: 4730: 4726: 4722: 4721: 4715: 4713: 4709: 4705: 4702: 4700: 4697: 4694: 4693: 4692: 4689: 4686: 4682: 4676: 4672: 4668: 4664: 4660: 4656: 4654: 4650: 4646: 4645:Martin Hogbin 4643: 4641: 4638: 4634: 4630: 4626: 4624: 4621: 4619: 4613: 4604: 4602: 4598: 4594: 4589: 4586: 4584: 4580: 4576: 4575:SarekOfVulcan 4573: 4571: 4567: 4563: 4560: 4558: 4554: 4550: 4547: 4545: 4541: 4537: 4534: 4532: 4529: 4526: 4524: 4520: 4516: 4513: 4511: 4507: 4503: 4502: 4495: 4494: 4493: 4490: 4489: 4485: 4481: 4480: 4473: 4469: 4465: 4458: 4456: 4455: 4451: 4448: 4445: 4441: 4426: 4422: 4418: 4414: 4409: 4408: 4407: 4403: 4400: 4397: 4393: 4388: 4384: 4380: 4376: 4375: 4374: 4373: 4372: 4371: 4370: 4369: 4362: 4358: 4354: 4349: 4348: 4347: 4346: 4345: 4344: 4339: 4334: 4329: 4325: 4321: 4320: 4319: 4318: 4315: 4311: 4307: 4302: 4299: 4294: 4290: 4286: 4283: 4281: 4278: 4277: 4276: 4275: 4271: 4268: 4265: 4261: 4252: 4248: 4245: 4241: 4237: 4235: 4231: 4227: 4226:SarekOfVulcan 4224: 4222: 4218: 4214: 4209: 4207: 4204: 4202: 4200: 4195: 4189: 4187: 4183: 4180: 4177: 4173: 4169: 4167: 4163: 4159: 4156: 4154: 4151: 4147: 4142: 4140: 4135: 4130: 4127:As author. - 4126: 4125: 4124: 4121: 4120: 4115: 4110: 4102: 4101:The Last Word 4097: 4093: 4090: 4086: 4082: 4078: 4075: 4070: 4066: 4062: 4057: 4053: 4049: 4046: 4041: 4037: 4033: 4032: 4031: 4028: 4026: 4021: 4013: 4009: 4006: 4004: 3998: 3989: 3987: 3983: 3979: 3978:SarekOfVulcan 3976: 3974: 3970: 3966: 3965: 3958: 3956: 3953: 3949: 3947: 3943: 3939: 3938:TheGoodLocust 3935: 3933: 3929: 3925: 3922: 3921: 3920: 3917: 3915: 3908: 3904: 3900: 3896: 3892: 3891:Martin Hogbin 3889: 3887: 3884: 3882: 3876: 3866: 3864: 3860: 3856: 3853: 3851: 3847: 3843: 3842:SarekOfVulcan 3840: 3838: 3834: 3830: 3825: 3820: 3818: 3814: 3810: 3809: 3803: 3801: 3798: 3795: 3793: 3789: 3785: 3782: 3780: 3776: 3772: 3767: 3761: 3757: 3753: 3749: 3745: 3741: 3737: 3733: 3732: 3731: 3727: 3723: 3719: 3715: 3713: 3709: 3705: 3701: 3700: 3699: 3695: 3691: 3687: 3686: 3685: 3681: 3677: 3673: 3666: 3665: 3664: 3661: 3657: 3653: 3649: 3648: 3647: 3644: 3640: 3636: 3632: 3630: 3626: 3622: 3618: 3616: 3612: 3608: 3607:TheGoodLocust 3604: 3602: 3598: 3594: 3589: 3587: 3583: 3579: 3576: 3575: 3574: 3571: 3570: 3564: 3562: 3560: 3558: 3556: 3554: 3551: 3550: 3547: 3545: 3543: 3541: 3539: 3537: 3534: 3533: 3530: 3528: 3526: 3524: 3522: 3520: 3518: 3516: 3514: 3511: 3510: 3507: 3505: 3503: 3501: 3499: 3497: 3495: 3493: 3491: 3489: 3487: 3485: 3483: 3481: 3479: 3477: 3475: 3473: 3471: 3469: 3467: 3464: 3463: 3462: 3459: 3451:View by Cla68 3450: 3446: 3442: 3438: 3437:Martin Hogbin 3435: 3433: 3429: 3425: 3421: 3419: 3415: 3411: 3407: 3405: 3401: 3397: 3396:SarekOfVulcan 3394: 3392: 3388: 3384: 3380: 3378: 3374: 3370: 3369: 3363: 3361: 3358: 3355: 3353: 3348: 3343: 3339: 3337: 3333: 3329: 3326: 3324: 3320: 3316: 3311: 3309: 3306: 3302: 3298: 3294: 3292: 3288: 3284: 3281: 3279: 3275: 3271: 3268: 3266: 3262: 3258: 3254: 3250: 3248: 3244: 3243: 3242:The Wordsmith 3238: 3236: 3232: 3228: 3225: 3223: 3219: 3215: 3212: 3210: 3206: 3202: 3198: 3197: 3196: 3193: 3192: 3188: 3184: 3175: 3171: 3167: 3163: 3162: 3157: 3155: 3152: 3150: 3144: 3135: 3133: 3130: 3128: 3126: 3121: 3115: 3113: 3110: 3106: 3101: 3099: 3094: 3089: 3084: 3082: 3078: 3074: 3073: 3068: 3066: 3063: 3062: 3061: 3056: 3049: 3047: 3043: 3039: 3034: 3032: 3028: 3024: 3020: 3016: 3012: 3010: 3006: 3002: 2998: 2994: 2992: 2988: 2985: 2982: 2978: 2974: 2972: 2968: 2964: 2960: 2957: 2955: 2951: 2947: 2943: 2941: 2936: 2934: 2927:As proposer. 2926: 2925: 2924: 2918: 2914: 2910: 2909: 2908: 2905: 2903: 2899: 2893: 2889: 2882: 2878: 2874: 2870: 2869:SarekOfVulcan 2867: 2865: 2861: 2857: 2854: 2852: 2849: 2846: 2844: 2841: 2840: 2837: 2834: 2827: 2825: 2821: 2817: 2813: 2811: 2808: 2804: 2800: 2796: 2794: 2790: 2789: 2788:The Wordsmith 2783: 2782: 2781: 2778: 2777: 2773: 2772: 2771:The Wordsmith 2764: 2762: 2753: 2749: 2745: 2739: 2738: 2733: 2727: 2725: 2721: 2717: 2716:Martin Hogbin 2714: 2712: 2708: 2704: 2700: 2698: 2695: 2693: 2687: 2677: 2675: 2670: 2665: 2664: 2659: 2657: 2653: 2649: 2648: 2642: 2640: 2637: 2634: 2632: 2628: 2624: 2620: 2618: 2614: 2610: 2606: 2604: 2600: 2596: 2591: 2589: 2585: 2581: 2576: 2574: 2570: 2566: 2563: 2561: 2558: 2554: 2550: 2546: 2544: 2540: 2536: 2532: 2528: 2526: 2522: 2518: 2514: 2512: 2508: 2507: 2506:The Wordsmith 2502: 2500: 2497: 2494: 2490: 2488: 2484: 2480: 2477: 2475: 2471: 2467: 2466:TheGoodLocust 2463: 2461: 2457: 2453: 2449: 2447: 2443: 2439: 2435: 2434: 2430: 2429: 2428: 2426: 2418: 2411: 2404: 2401: 2397: 2392: 2391: 2390: 2389: 2386: 2381: 2376: 2372: 2370: 2366: 2362: 2361: 2356: 2354: 2350: 2346: 2343: 2341: 2338: 2334: 2331: 2330: 2329: 2326: 2324: 2321: 2317: 2312: 2307: 2302: 2299: 2294: 2292: 2284: 2280: 2276: 2272: 2268: 2266: 2261: 2256: 2251: 2247: 2245: 2241: 2237: 2236: 2231: 2227: 2223: 2219: 2215: 2213: 2209: 2205: 2202: 2198: 2193: 2192: 2191: 2187: 2183: 2179: 2177: 2173: 2169: 2165: 2163: 2159: 2155: 2151: 2147: 2143: 2141: 2137: 2133: 2130: 2128: 2127: 2124: 2120: 2114: 2110: 2106: 2105:misconception 2103: 2099: 2097: 2093: 2089: 2085: 2083: 2079: 2075: 2072: 2071: 2070: 2067: 2065: 2060: 2058: 2051: 2047: 2044: 2041: 2036: 2034: 2030: 2026: 2022: 2020: 2016: 2012: 2011: 2006: 2004: 2001: 1996: 1993: 1991: 1987: 1983: 1980: 1978: 1974: 1970: 1966: 1964: 1960: 1956: 1952: 1950: 1947: 1945: 1943: 1938: 1932: 1930: 1926: 1922: 1919: 1917: 1912: 1907: 1903: 1901: 1897: 1893: 1890: 1888: 1884: 1880: 1879: 1874: 1872: 1869: 1868: 1867: 1862: 1855: 1853: 1850: 1849: 1846: 1843: 1837: 1832: 1827: 1823: 1821: 1817: 1814: 1811: 1807: 1803: 1799: 1797: 1793: 1789: 1785: 1783: 1779: 1775: 1772: 1770: 1766: 1762: 1759: 1757: 1753: 1749: 1745: 1743: 1739: 1735: 1732: 1730: 1725: 1723: 1714: 1712: 1709: 1706: 1702: 1700: 1697: 1693: 1690: 1688: 1684: 1680: 1677: 1675: 1671: 1667: 1664: 1662: 1658: 1654: 1650: 1646: 1644: 1640: 1636: 1633: 1631: 1627: 1623: 1620: 1619: 1618: 1615: 1609: 1607: 1604: 1601: 1600: 1597: 1594: 1591: 1588: 1584: 1583: 1579: 1577: 1574: 1573: 1570: 1567: 1566: 1563: 1560: 1559: 1558: 1556: 1551: 1544: 1540: 1536: 1532: 1531: 1525: 1523: 1520: 1516: 1512: 1508: 1506: 1502: 1498: 1497:TheGoodLocust 1494: 1493: 1492: 1489: 1487: 1483: 1479: 1478: 1474: 1470: 1469:TheGoodLocust 1466: 1462: 1461: 1457: 1453: 1452:TheGoodLocust 1449: 1444: 1442: 1436: 1433: 1428: 1426: 1425: 1422: 1419: 1415: 1406: 1402: 1398: 1394: 1390: 1388: 1384: 1380: 1376: 1375: 1374: 1369: 1364: 1359: 1355: 1353: 1349: 1345: 1340: 1338: 1334: 1330: 1327: 1325: 1322: 1319: 1315: 1314: 1313: 1310: 1306: 1299: 1296: 1295: 1294: 1288: 1284: 1280: 1276: 1272: 1270: 1267: 1265: 1259: 1250: 1248: 1244: 1240: 1236: 1234: 1231: 1228: 1225: 1223: 1219: 1215: 1211: 1209: 1206: 1205: 1200: 1193: 1191: 1187: 1183: 1182:SarekOfVulcan 1180: 1178: 1174: 1170: 1169: 1163: 1161: 1158: 1155: 1153: 1148: 1143: 1139: 1137: 1133: 1129: 1126: 1124: 1121: 1117: 1113: 1109: 1107: 1103: 1099: 1096: 1094: 1090: 1086: 1083: 1081: 1077: 1076: 1075:The Wordsmith 1070: 1068: 1063: 1061: 1053: 1051: 1047: 1043: 1042:TheGoodLocust 1040:Affirmative. 1039: 1037: 1033: 1029: 1025: 1023: 1019: 1015: 1011: 1009: 1005: 1001: 996: 994: 990: 986: 982: 981: 980: 977: 976: 972: 968: 962: 960: 959:WP:UNINVOLVED 956: 948: 946: 945: 937: 933: 930: 928: 925: 918: 916: 911: 904: 902: 899: 897: 891: 881: 880:battle ground 877: 875: 870: 865: 864: 858: 856: 852: 848: 843: 838: 836: 833: 830: 825: 823: 819: 815: 811: 809: 805: 801: 800:SarekOfVulcan 798: 796: 792: 788: 783: 781: 777: 773: 772: 766: 764: 761: 758: 756: 752: 748: 744: 742: 738: 734: 731: 729: 725: 721: 717: 715: 711: 707: 704: 702: 699: 696: 691: 689: 685: 681: 677: 675: 671: 670: 669:The Wordsmith 664: 662: 659: 657: 651: 649: 645: 641: 637: 635: 631: 627: 623: 621: 617: 613: 609: 604: 602: 598: 594: 589: 585: 583: 579: 575: 572:not help WP. 570: 568: 565: 561: 557: 553: 552: 551: 542: 539: 538: 537: 536: 535: 528: 523: 520: 518: 511: 507: 503: 498: 495: 491: 487: 486: 485: 478: 477: 476: 470: 467: 464: 463: 462: 459: 458: 456: 448: 442: 440: 439: 438: 437: 433: 427: 423: 419: 416: 414: 410: 406: 403: 402: 401: 400: 399: 398: 391: 386: 382: 381: 380: 374: 370: 366: 362: 358: 354: 351: 348: 345: 342: 339: 336: 332: 329: 326: 324: 320: 316: 312: 308: 304: 301: 297: 293: 289: 287: 285: 282: 281:User:Polargeo 278: 274: 273: 272: 266: 262: 258: 254: 250: 246: 245: 244: 238: 231: 228: 225: 222: 219: 215: 211: 208: 204: 203: 202: 201: 200: 194: 192: 189: 187: 183: 179: 175: 170: 169: 162: 158: 154: 150: 146: 142: 141: 140: 139: 132: 130: 127: 124: 120: 116: 111: 110: 103: 101: 100: 98: 94: 84: 81: 78: 75: 72: 68: 65: 64: 62: 55: 51: 47: 40: 37: 32: 27: 26: 19: 5551: 5548: 5537: 5536: 5521: 5491: 5490: 5485: 5481: 5418: 5417: 5404: 5258: 5254: 5204: 5198: 5107: 5102: 5101: 5040: 5029: 5025: 5002:Sχeptomaniac 4991: 4960:As view-er. 4955: 4952: 4832: 4828: 4824: 4820: 4716: 4696:Sχeptomaniac 4690: 4687: 4683: 4679: 4675:Sxeptomaniac 4617: 4587: 4528:Sχeptomaniac 4497: 4491: 4475: 4474: 4470: 4466: 4462: 4446: 4437: 4412: 4398: 4386: 4382: 4378: 4288: 4287:, which was 4266: 4256: 4198: 4193: 4178: 4122: 4106: 4080: 4073: 4068: 4055: 4051: 4029: 4017: 4002: 3960: 3952:Sχeptomaniac 3918: 3913: 3911: 3880: 3823: 3804: 3797:Sχeptomaniac 3717: 3572: 3569:more to come 3568: 3567: 3535:Guettarda: 3457: 3454: 3364: 3357:Sχeptomaniac 3251:Having seen 3241: 3194: 3179: 3159: 3148: 3124: 3119: 3070: 3051: 3050: 2983: 2958: 2932: 2922: 2916: 2906: 2897: 2894: 2890: 2886: 2848:Sχeptomaniac 2830: 2787: 2784:As proposer 2779: 2770: 2765: 2757: 2735: 2691: 2661: 2643: 2636:Sχeptomaniac 2533:a farce. -- 2530: 2505: 2422: 2358: 2327: 2310: 2303: 2295: 2288: 2233: 2201:WP:VANDTYPES 2194: 2116: 2104: 2101: 2068: 2061: 2055: 2037: 2008: 1941: 1936: 1876: 1857: 1856: 1839: 1838:, however.-- 1830: 1825: 1812: 1801: 1721: 1616: 1612: 1602: 1554: 1552: 1548: 1526: 1490: 1482:@Enric Navel 1481: 1480: 1464: 1463: 1447: 1445: 1437: 1429: 1412: 1410: 1372: 1311: 1307: 1303: 1292: 1263: 1195: 1164: 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