Knowledge:Requests for comment/Teeninvestor

3943:. I noted the two diffs shown at the end of Gun Powder Ma's update for changes to the article (see above), and asked Teeninvestor to provide sources to support his removal of cited material – in particular the insistent removal of what I knew to be a well-cited, conservative, lower-end estimate of iron output in the Roman empire. Teen seemed to "know" that the figure must be wrong because Han Chinese iron production was much higher than Rome's; but he was unable or unwilling to provide alternative figures. He referred to Needham, via Temple and the supporting opinion of another poster; but no figure, not even a rough estimate. Contrary to his talk-page and edit-summary claims, there was neither historical nor talk-page consensus for the removal. Shortly after, he was blocked for hounding Gun Powder Ma: so in all honesty I can't say whether he 4026:) 23:20, 13 August 2010 (UTC) (I won't deny that I am sometimes more the emotional type, but I like to believe of myself that I can bow to the ground to a better argument when it is convincingly presented to me. But in this case, Teeninvestor came with absolutely nothing in his hands, but tried to push through his views nonetheless by brute force. Kanguole has also analysed and summarized the whole debate well: "Teeninvestor has been edit warring to remove a well-referenced figure for Roman iron production, not because he has a different figure, but because he finds it out of line with what he knows about China". And this took a lot of time, patience and energy away not only from me, but also from other users, and it was not the first time, either.) 1440:

statements about reducing the tax burden (from when? The war era or the Late Ming) and the abolition of labor conscription (despite the fact that overwhelming academic consensus and evidence shows that this was done decades earlier under Zhang Juzheng). Any reasonable interpetation would state that the Qing was interventionist (especially when we contrast this with Cambridge history's volume on Ming). If we go through the policies of Mao, and notice that he allowed for a year peasants to farm a tiny private garden, does that justify editors jumping and shouting: "Ah Hah! There's no scholarly consensus on whether Mao was a champion of free enterprise or not! You're misrepresenting your sources!"

1771:(update) My endorsement was for an earlier version that didnt include the sections on Gun Powder Ma and Athenean. I dont agree with comments, here or on other views, suggesting other editors have been lying. Its inevitable that volunteers making thousands of edits will make mistakes and be inconsistent but this is not the same thing deliberatly trying to deceive. On the other hand, great to see olive branches being offered and that were taking the reliability of our work so seriously. 1680:, it is curious that Athenean would refer to it as edit warring, as in the end I acquesied to their view and removed the per capita info which they did not like, as they were correct. He then later reverted me on a mistaken view that I had inserted that China was the wealthiest economy up to the 19th century, missing that I had inserted "one of" in front. He has since not commented on the article, apparently recognizing his mistake. Why Athenean would hold that against me, I can't tell. 1436:

not say whatthey wanted; hardly a case of "source misrepresentation". These accusations are themselves misrepresenations. As any diffs can show, I used multiple, high-quality sources to back up all my assertions, including the Qing theory. I acknowledge that the heavy industries does not fit this case, but i believe in that case Pomeranz did support the given assertion; the question is how much he supports it.

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up assertions I have made in the article, as well as incessantly attacking me as having violated wikipedia's policies on synthesis and POV, which I have done nothing of the sort. The negative effect of Qing policies on the Great Divergence is a minority but relatively substantial view on the topic, something even acknowledged by the leading scholar on the debate,

3376:. "Equaled" is gone. This is POV-pushing by the well known "small steps" tactic. He claims both his edits are sourced, but they are clearly different, so which is it? I'm guessing that in the next few days the word "among" will be the next to disappear (maybe not as a result of this post). Another excellent example is the above-mentioned dispute on 1427:

Kanguole was knowledgable in Chinese and thus he would be able to check the sources accordingly and verify them. And it is not as if opposing views were not represented; even in the sections of the article discussing the culpability fo the Qing, much space is given to opposing views which believed Qing's state interventions had a positive effect.

3557:. Not only that, he used a deceitful edit summary (there is nothing "more neutral" about the quote). This shows extreme dishonesty, bad faith, and contempt for the community and consensus. Apparently his ploy is to just wait things out for a few days till they quiet down and then re-add disputed material when he thinks no one is watching. 3856:

nationalistic approach that is antithetical to good content. Now, it's possible that there are problems with gpm's edits as well -- but nothing that pops out so glaringly and quickly as on the other side of this. I've no doubt that the quality of content would improve markedly were teeninvestor to be removed from these articles.

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sources to the table to support his position. While opposition editors seem to be often attacking with hostile rhetoric. Instead of empty criticism, it would be much more constructive if those holding opposing views do their own share of the research, and show a good example by backing up their positions with quality sources.

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When I tried to correct this, Athenean reverted me as POV-pushing, which angered me quite a bit and may have caused incivility. However, the sources are clear on this; my edits reflect only what the sources say; I invite any uninvolved editor to check them and indict me if that is not the case. As for the dispute on

1464:, when he was the one who placed a plethora of tags and irrelevant info in, without contributing one iota or showing any interest in the discussion. He has repeatedly lied here, as shown above when he claimed I claimed that he called me a wargamer recently, while I was referring to a past dispute. His accusation: 1476:, perhaps the most prolific China scholar, and doing so indirectly through disputing the claims of Robert G. Temple, a mere summarizer of Needham. GPM's statement that a "consensus" was reached to discredit Temple is also spurious. Several other users (see above diffs) have indicated Temple should be used 4095:

Gun Powder may have a short fuse or not, but WP needs to deal with the problem of editors pushing a POV by deleting sourced material. This case fits an alarming pattern: when you support your information with a great number of sources, it's attacked as "OR"; when you summarize a general view within a

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Although many of the sources relating to the Qing policies are in Chinese, this is understandably so; few Westerners would write about a minority view in Chinese academia (would you expect Chinese academics to have much to say on revisionist scholarship on the U.S. Civil war?). My impression was that

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in which he was topic banned, blocked for a week and restricted from editing without a mentor. His previous history of editing include numerous personal attacks, disruptive edit warring, forum shopping, abuse of the dispute system and a crippling inability (feigned or real) to communicate at all. It

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seems to be an editor who has good faith, but is rather misguided. For the economic history of China, the sources originally stated conclusively that per capita income in China in 1800 was higher than Europe; there was no doubt; doubt was introduced either through mine own error or another editor's.

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Indeed the above editors' own interpetation of Myers and Wang is heavily skewed. They ignore their numerous and repeated statements that Qing intervened into the economy frequently and often installed monopolies (understanding the "advantages" of monopoly power) and instead focus on a few very vague

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Throughout this dispute, I have been the one providing numerous sources to express both views on the disputed issue (the effect of Qing policies on the Great Divergence), as well as a variety of other views. However, the users above have completely ignored the plethora of sources I have used to back

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was justified by the information in the article and WP:Guidelines regarding the lead. I have taken these edits and discussed them in a constructive manner on the talk page. I have retained some of the info added by other users and put them in alternative sections of the article where they belong (I

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The accusations of misrepresntation of sources can only stand up if Myers and Wang was the only source I was using, which is patently not the case. In fact, multiple sources were used to back up my assertions, but the above editors have checked only one source that was used marginally and which did

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The behaviour of all editors involved in RfC's can be subjected to scrutiny and comment; so a comment or two on Gun Powder Ma; yep, he might or might not have a rather short fuse. So might I in similar circumstances. I don't know in detail how he's tried to resolve the problems between himself and

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The recent reverts showed that Teeninvestor follows still the same edit-war pattern when he disagrees with other users. It is clear that he does only accept his version and is prepared to edit war it to the end on multiple articles. I don't see any improvement in Teeninvestor's behaviour since the

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I could add a handful of older examples, if need arises, but the pattern remains the same: He is cherry-picking sources according to his China POV, and in case of disagreement with other editors, instead of providing balanced views, he embarks on a policy of systematically removing POV tags. It is

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edit cycle, with the apparent intent of outlasting the attention spans of the other involved editors. That said, I cannot make unbiased judgments about intent...I can only make observations regarding actions. The actions in question, in this editor's opinion, demonstrate a blatant disregard for

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The deliberate use of misleading edit-summaries is particularly troublesome, because it makes a mockery of good faith and shows a desire to avoid scrutiny. Knowledge is based on the assumption that editors behave with integrity. If someone acts in a consistently deceitful manner such that their

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user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 00:32, 17 July 2010 (UTC)), the

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sample of primary, secondary and tertiary scholarship. Needham's expertise is specific, enthusiastic; some might say preferential. Temple's scholarship, um, speaks for itself. Neither of them has, as far as I know, studied the Roman economy in any depth. Nor, I guess, has Teen. He appears to use

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I did not violate any policy at the time of the block. I was not edit warring, socking, vandalizing, spamming, engaging in personal attacks, anything. I was also not violating WP:FORUM as the issues I raised at ANI were of a bigger scope than WQA and I believe of major concern. Yet I was blocked

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Teeninvestor has problems using edit summaries correctly: often they are misleading. There is also a problem with accurately representing what sources say. While Teeninvestor's edits are well meaning, and he obviously feels he is improving the encyclopaedia, sometimes his edits are biased in the

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Some of the criticism against Teeninvestor seems valid, he's acknowledged hes made a few minor wording errors, and yes he seems to have a POV on some issues. But he's not unresponsive to collegiate feedback. Teen seems to do a substantial amount of quality editing, and brings multiple quality

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More awareness of a growing issue that is poisoning the very essence of collaborative editing that makes Knowledge possible: real-world factions that vie for control over articles, turning them into polemical battlegrounds where surface civility is used to cover bias, tendentiousness and even

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is true). A review of teeninvestors edits shows an over-reliance on fringe sources, strained synthetic efforts to prove that failings of leadership of various Chinese dynasties are the reason why China "fell behind" Europe (as if history was a race, with winners even), and generally a highly

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I can't know Teen's motivation in this. He seems to find the superiority of Han China over Rome self-evident and commonsensical in all respects; therefore his assertions require no source. I'm sure he sincerely believes what he says. I'm less sure why he would wish to visit this belief on

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based on his reading of Pomeranz's book of the same name, which is clearly an important work on the topic. I also hope he can make it easier for other editors to work with him, for example by providing more informative edit summaries and by being more responsive to the concerns of others.

908:(postscript: he has given the source meanwhile; dispute now centers on the question why multiple scholarly sources to the contrary effect are, what I feel, systematically excluded or downplayed in their significance) In fact, and this is crucial, he introduced the claim into the article, 697:

he deletes text cited to a very reliable source because it conflicts with his preconceptions, but leaves the reference. (In fact the other editor's sourcing was too accurate: the text was actually an unmarked direct quote from the source, which spends a couple of pages on the point.)

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discipline based on multiple complementary and overlapping sources, it's attacked as "synth." The editor(s) doing the attacking won't add or rewrite content based on their own sources, and their only goal seems to be suppressing information. This is very bad for the encyclopedia.

1411:. Accordingly, I have given it a small amount of space in the relevant sections, backed up by several citations from scholarly, academic sources. Although some of my edits have been rather heavy-handed and quick, I have always acknowledged the relevant scholarship on this issue. 1812:

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside

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chapter by Myers and Wang (the best source on the mid-Qing economy we've found) is cited in support of statements that Qing policies "crippled Chinese industrial development" and "crippled Chinese industry". When it is pointed out that they say nothing of the sort, Teeninvestor

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sense that they unbalance an article, putting emphasis on one point of view by virtue of providing more information on it. When confronted with criticism, Teeninvestor has frequently responded by accusing others of personal attacks and avoids responding to the actual criticism.

179:) are overlooked. On one occasion a school textbook was used. There is often an imbalance in the information, sometimes presented from one point of view with little to balance it out. Facts are sometimes cherry picked to support Teeninvestor's opinion, which is a breach of 881:

Despite Teeinvestor's assurances below, there is a continuing problem with his fixation on Europe and the West, and his eagerness to subsume the economic development or military prowess of these world regions in – totally unrelated – articles on China: Just a few hours

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Teeninvestor is an enthusiastic editor of Chinese history articles, but he is prone to using citations as post hoc support for preconceived beliefs, instead of impartially reporting what reliable sources say. In the case I'm familiar with, his belief is that the Manchu

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It seems to me that the method of seeking references to buttress one's opinions, instead of basing one's writing on the best relevant sources, is inherently flawed, and a recipe for POV and UNDUE. (Teeninvestor has received similar feedback at the FA nominations for

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sources that confirm what he already and passionately knows to be True. He seems compelled to propagate this Truth. He seems not to acknowledge the unnecessary and frustrating disruption this can cause among the editing community; particularly Gun Powder Ma.

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which was an addition of material after a long discussion with User:Nev1 reaching a consensus as a "revert" and "edit warring". These and many other diffs were abused by him to suggest that I was edit warring; as can be seen above; this is hardly the case.

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just 48 h ago shows that he was absolutely aware of Maddison's estimate at the time of his edit! Still, he chose to went along with his preconceived view and willfully ignored Maddison's estimate in his expansion of the article on Chinese economic reform.

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More serious is this user's repeated POV pushing after I agreed to avoid interacting with him, per Patar Knight. The decline in article quality because of this user's repeated, outrageous POV Pushing is truly astounding. I will list only a few examples:

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I hope Teeninvestor will restrict himself to writing in a balanced way from the best available sources, especially in a topic as broad and complex as economic history. It is encouraging that in the last couple of days he has been adding material to

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I write here not so much to vouch for gpm on the content side, but rather to say there's a big, big problem with teeninvestor on the content side. While I'm no expert on early Chinese history, you don't have to be one to realize that a source like

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Teeninvestor has found a source that backs his pre-conceived notions (Pomeranz) and deliberately ignore all evidence that there exist other sources that disagree with it. He is then willing to edit war extensively over it, in other words classic

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without so much as a warning for "hounding" another editor; this is an eminent double standard as said editor had once filed several ANI reports simulatenously against me without any comment from user:Toddst1, except an encouragement to go to ANI

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Completely uninvolved, but after a review of the situation I believe the classic wikipedia fall-back of "it takes two to edit war," "be more civil," etc.. leading to "some kind of sanction to keep these two apart" would be the wrong outcome.

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Consistently construing any criticism as a personal attack is detrimental to the process of discussion. It becomes impossible to have a discussion with such a user. Since discussion is such an important dispute resolution tool, this is very

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on the above articles. As soon as someone makes an edit Teeninvestor does not approve of, he reverts instantly, often with a hostile or no edit-summary, as shown in many instances above and evidenced in the edit histories of the above pages

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This RfC was not initiated by me. As a premise, I accept that the ambit of this discussion thread is established in the first paragraph. The final sentence of the first paragraph at the top of this page invites more careful consideration:

1603:. I'm trying to follow AGF here, but it seems to me that I was set up and then blocked/banned by this very admin so to add to his/her record of "defending wikipedia". This seems to have been an extreme bad faith action from my point of view. 1976:

embarks on a ... . It is clear to me that many editors have become frustrated with such an uncooperative, biased edit pattern, and unfortunately, the latest example shows that there is no sign that Teeinvestor is willing to change his ways

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on the RfC talk page also has what I interpretated as a condescending and inappropriate tone. I don't believe that he sees his actions as wrong and don't think he will alter his style of editing unless topic banned (and perhaps not even

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responds: "... is explicitly permitted to comment about you in "legitimate dispute resolution initiated by others", which is what he is doing here. As he is editing within the scope of his restrictions, no action is necessary." --

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diffs as "edit warring" when they were actually just me adding information to the article and then reverting another editor's mistaken removal of Bairoch under the impression I didn't cite his source. He also counts this addition

4139:). As this has removed the subject-party from the dispute, there is no longer a dispute at this particular time. Should problems recur, parties should either escalate to an admin noticeboard, or if necessary, to the next step in 933:

clear to me that many editors have become frustrated with such an uncooperative, biased edit pattern, and unfortunately, the latest example shows that there is no sign that Teeinvestor is willing to change his ways here. Regards

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There are estimates other than Maddison's, and some of them are not exactly the most accurate (for example, Maddison claims Finland is wealthier than China in 1700). It's interesting to see how he claims I am edit warring on

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raised by Teeinvestor on 14 May 2010, I have agreed to refrain from calling him further "wargamer", a promise I have fully kept since. In this light, I find his false accusation a sign of bad faith and maliciousness on his

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which, especially as demonstrated, combine to place Teeninvestor in an untenable position. Add to those the material that can be found in the Talk pages involved, wherein Teeninvestor displays an additional disregard for

3805:. This RFC is outside the scope of that interaction ban to allow him/her to participate in due process. However any disruption on this page from either Teeninvestor or GPM should be dealt with swiftly and strongly. 1619:

Removal of all references from Needham, Pomeranz and other scholars, putting "so-called" in front of the four great inventions of China, removing references to Chinese inventions such as steam turbine, cast iron,

4127:. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page. 2173:

and others have been ill-served by the community which fostered cumulative misunderstandings; and this thread becomes a first step in repairing the damage caused by a series of mistakes, misapprehensions,

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in which the chapter title does not match the page numbers. When that is finally clarified, it turns out he was picking part of a sentence and ignoring the context (Nev1's 3rd example above). So that is

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Teeninvestor responds to ANI thread started on 15 July by accusing Gun Powder Ma of making personal attacks and not addressing the root problem of the POV tags, edit warring, and misleading edit summaries

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alone is responsible for creating, the interplay of strategy and tactics are not unique. They are familiar; and this causes me to clarify my endorsement by proposing restatements derived from the above:

1937:"It seems to me that the method of seeking references to buttress one's opinions, instead of basing one's writing on the best relevant sources, is inherently flawed, and a recipe for POV and UNDUE ...." 127:

This is a summary written by users who have initiated the request for comment. It should spell out exactly what the changes they'd like to see in the user, or what questions of behaviour should be the

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This user is now trying to declare that I violated Toddst1's restrictions even though the community declared them unworkable, and even Toddst1 allowed them to be modified, which Patar knight later did.

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I have blocked him/her again for continuing to hound GPM. I believe this is indicative of the broader interaction problems TI has and despite making promises, has proven himself unable to keep them.

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That Teeninvestor realizes that his POVs are often (substantial) minority viewpoints within the scholarship is a significant improvement. Gun Powder Ma (or, if he cannot stop viewing this dispute in

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This is a summary written by users who are concerned by this user's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.

3785:) engaging in some kind of grudge against each other. I have blocked Teeninvestor for continuing to hound GPM (discussed on ANI). I recommend some kind of sanction to keep these two apart. 3589:

The above is an example of why I shouldn't edit until I've had my morning coffee. Thanks to those that pointed out my error, and I withdraw this comment, with an apology to Teeninvestor.

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prevented China's modernization and thus caused it to fall behind the West, specifically by intervening in the economy in contrast with an alleged laissez faire policy of the Han Chinese

4070:. Gun Power Ma has definitely contributed to the combative atmosphere there, but Teeninvestor's behavior is worse, precisely because he has provided no sources to support his position. 3292:(without an edit summary). These diffs only cover the period of the RfC/U. A scan of the edit histories of these pages reveals past bouts of edits warring equally or even more severe. 3157:

Teeninvestor is extremely prone to edit warring. Over the course of this RfC alone, he has revert-warred multiple times over multiple articles against multiple editors. Specifically:

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For centuries, China had been one of the world's largest and most advanced economies, and its per capita incomes probably equalled and exceeded that of Western Europe as recent as the

167:{Add summary here, but you must use the section below to certify or endorse it. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries, other than to endorse them.} 3972:

Teeninvestor; but I'm pretty sure they're not of his making. From my dealings with him and my readings of "his" articles I'd say he's a scrupulous, productive and reasonable editor.

350:(22 April 2010). While GPM has called Teeninvestor a wargamer before, it was not relevant to the discussion. The latest use of the phrase on that page before Teeninvestor used it was 1534:

as edit warring. Considering this user's history of edit warring and POV pushing, I ask other editors to examine the situation and diffs with their own judgement and not be mislead.

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that one of the main sources on which Teeinvestor systematically relies upon to make key claims of Chinese excellence and relative European backwardness, in articles of his such as

430:(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.) 368:(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.) 1921:¶4: "Reliable sources for Teeninvestor's position seem to be unavailable in English, and requests for the most reliable Chinese sources on the topic get a disappointing response" 4063: 3932: 3250:. At least 4 reverts in a little over 24 hours. And this is just the recent stuff. The article history reveals bouts of major edit-warring in January and April of this year 2508:'s serial diffs prove repeatedly that the time and reasoning invested in this RfC were squandered. More troubling, the moderate words of those participating in this RfC cause 3959:, unless to chastise it or one of its editors. Either way, not good. I know little of Han China, and would not presume to edit an article on anything to do with it until I'd 175:. While he often cites his information, it is not always to relevant texts. Often general history books are referenced while economic histories dealing with the subject (the 2399:* Specific areas of concern were identified, including "misrepresentation of sources" and "misinformation in edit summaries" and "unfounded accusations of personal attacks." 748:

Reliable sources for Teeninvestor's position seem to be unavailable in English, and requests for the most reliable Chinese sources on the topic get a disappointing response

1887:§1. My initial participation in this RfC thread was cautiously minimal. In this evolving RfC context, I underscore my purpose by restatement. I endorsed the following: 3325:

Teeninvestor uses bombastic, peacock language in an effort to make China look great, and is obsessed with comparing it favorably to Europe, even when it is not necessary

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Many of Athenean's accusations are quite baseless. For example, he counts me reverting him when he mistakenly thought I was introducing a POV statement as "edit warring"

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I do realize how negative what I am writing here may sound to others, but I believe the evidence in the diffs speaks sufficiently clearly to obviate any sugar-coating.

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by User:Madalibi. (Everyone knows the 19th century was disastrous for the Qing, but the relevant period here is the 18th, when they were actually doing rather well.)

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Less timidity in addressing issues related to contents (POV warring, tag teams, academic dishonesty). All of us should be more active at curtailing content disputes.

2186:. This thread arises from a dispute in a single article context; but the complaints also mirror the accumulating consequences of edits across a range of articles. 1720:

appears this user, in participating in this RFC, is trying to "settle an old score" with me, so to speak. I urge editors to take his response with a grain of salt.

1514:, and his disruptive behaviours are becoming more and more intolerable. Recently his attempts at forum shopping and misrepresentation were rebuked by an admin here 1299:, and I hope that the continuing differences with regard to contents and adherence to WP guidelines can be approached in a more constructive manner in the future. 1626:

removal of standard info on Chinese gunpowder weapons development, inserting that China suffered "many defeats", removed quotes from official dynastic histories

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harassment. All of us need to take a strong stance against that sort of "polite disruption" and those who use our rules of civility as weapons, recognize that

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where Teeninvestor altered the statement of Gun Powder Ma in this RfC. Clearly inappropriate and indictative that he does not understand the process. This

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terms, some other well-informed editor) should work with Teeninvestor to include them proportionally to their weight, instead of removing them entirely.

2385:* The initiators of this RfC invested time and thought in developing an explicit listing of the "desired outcomes" and "evidence of disputed behaviour." 1484:. This editor has had a history of edit warring in order to push an Eurocentric POV, especially on China-related subjects, as can be seen here from his 478:

Teeninvestor still believes that one sentence from one side of an argument is enough to balance out an entire paragraph of information on the other POV

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unlike "simple" incivility, the damage caused by editors misquoting, plagiarizing and editorializing destroys the credibility of our encyclopedia --

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Especially "He appears to use sources that confirm what he already and passionately knows to be True. He seems compelled to propagate this Truth."

3075: 916:, where Western European GDP per capita exceeds China's in all benchmark times save 1000 AD. And you know what? Teeinvestor introduced the claim 925: 1287: 3541: 3377: 3310: 3238: 3160: 2655:

As an outside view, my words have twice underscored my belief that the explicit list of "desired outcomes" is a constructive gesture which

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have supplied what was requested, using some source hitherto unknown to Roman studies. Anyway, the material in question was restored. It

1282:), a remark I made in the past in conjunction with his virtual clash of Roman and Han Chinese armies during the December 2009 AfD of his 3782: 2939:

The final sentence of the first paragraph at the top of this page invites more careful consideration: "When confronted with criticism,

3768: 2649: 1652:, an article he hasn't edited in a month and which is completely unrelated to the current content dispute on ancient Chinese history. 1526:

which are merely corrections of other editors' mistakes as "edit warring". He also listed removal of the disputed material and tag on

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as an additional citation for the same statement. When the textbook is criticized, it is replaced with googled references in Chinese.

80: 1163: 2478:" — that is, he is playing a game. His diffs reveals a core belief that this RfC and Knowledge generally are nothing other than a 1595:

What makes this incident worse is that part of the reason I went to ANI was that User:Toddst1 advised me to raise the issues there

1498:, but he has continued edit warring and POV-pushing instead of cooperation. Recently he has disruptively forum shopped repeatedly 2645:-above. The broad outlines of an unfolding pattern are made unavoidably plain; but how to mitigate the harm remains unclear -- 1453:

well-known, academic source dealing with the topic, who provided alternative estimates of Asian per capita income from Maddison.

686:, and draw the desired conclusion. Descriptions of the Qing are made more negative, often with misleading edit summaries or none 2978:

backstory is that I was involved in a dispute with another editor ... and became concerned about said editor's personal attacks

3653:, and I must concur with the certifying editors vis-à-vis both the description of the dispute and the most desirable outcome. 52:, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the 3802: 17: 2119:

and others have learned from experience that the community's attention is easily diffused, distracted, conflated, confused.

1972:¶3: "... the pattern remains the same ... in case of disagreement with other editors, instead of providing balanced views, 3060:

to address issues which were made very clear by those who initiated this massive undertaking. In the absence of specific

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Even a cursory review of page histories and diffs as shown above appears to demonstrate, beyond a reasonable doubt, that

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as it forces other editors to spend their time tracking the dishonest user rather than build content or do other things.

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complains: "By ArbCom's ruling, I believe User:Tenmei is instructed not to interact with me, but he has done so ..." --

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In the context established by the graphic pyramid at the right, my view has evolved from the general to the specific:

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Teeninvestor promises to assume good faith when constructive criticism is provided and not take criticism personally.

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think you would agree with me that a long exposition of historical per capita incomes do not belong in the lead).

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has a history of disruptive editing, which eventually cumulated into a dispute with me and numerous other editors

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A. We need to acknowledge that there are a number of troubling factors which are not captured by this thread.

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I admit to have made some wording errors, but this was subsequently cleaned up. The Qing theory is backed by

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is similar, but I have not seen it.) The pattern is to select and exaggerate the negative, omit the positive

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Teeninvestor is also incivil, rude, and arrogant. This is just from a brief interaction with him today:

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I admit I can be a little quick on the revert button, but I believe that my reverts, especially regarding

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and yet when I filed one ANI report (the second on my 2 years in wiki here), I was blocked immediately.

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Despite the seemingly successful olive branch agreement, Teeninvestor went on to blame me unjustly for

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have been tagged (rather pointlessly in my opinion) as dubious but it should not have been removed.

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I also endorse the "desired outcomes" which are listed above; and this begs the question — why not?

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Teeninvestor promises to discuss disputed information on the relevant talk page rather than edit war.

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Regarding my recent blocks, here's the back story. Despite earlier attempts to resolve the problem,

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Produces a quote from a source out of context to support his view that Qing policies held back China

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the disputed material, carrying out his earlier threat of adding the entire paragraph from Temple

3309:. Here is a particularly revealing example: Though there is an 8-1 consensus on the talkpage of 1628:

This edit was so outrageous that even other editors who were in a dispute with me objected to it.

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has indeed invested time in adding to this page. However, there is no evidence of fulfilling a

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The graphic parsing of this key sentence emphasizes its parts. The sentence accurately predicts

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has posted in this venue (including the talk page) and in other edits since this RfC was started.

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is not reliable for anything but his own opinions (he basically believes that the premise of

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Since my previous post, Teeninvestor has agreed to a voluntary interaction ban with GPM. See

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Verifying citations is tedious at the best of times, but is exhausting here. For example, in

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must decide to become a part of the process of figuring out how to mitigate future harms. --

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in an earlier inquiry from me about what to do. But when I did, I was instantly blocked by

660:. This idea is widespread in Chinese blogs, but is far from mainstream scholarship, as was 3852: 3723: 3667: 2968:'s edit history shows no engagement with the "desired outcome." This is made explicit in 2786: 2737: 2427:

For deliberately redundant emphasis, it may be helpful to restate one sentence from above:

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Interprets "Ch'ing officials usually refused requests by rich merchants to open new mines"

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At this point, my small hopes that this thread might be constructive are overwhelmed.

1419:, including a paper from a leading social science journal in China. Recent discussion on 3370:

Teeninvestor exhibits clear signs of intellectual dishonesty. First he makes this edit

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On 22 July 2010, Teeinvestor accuses me falsely of continuing to call him a "wargamer" (

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agreement relates to Teeninvestor's persistent tagging and removal of cited material at

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he is perfectly aware that recent scholarship has come to the opposite conclusion: cf.

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Removing POV and "disputed" tag from article with the summary "Fixed an error in prose"

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this one is truly outrageous; removed the invention of movable type as "insignificant"

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has been more constructive and a compromise seems to have been reached on this issue.

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acknowledges the harms affecting the credibility of our Knowledge project. Instead,

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Removed sourced material with the edit summary "Adding confucianism and mercantilism"

244:. Despite the demonstrable divide in sources, Teeninvestor continues to assert that 172: 137: 2667:'s diffs function at cross-purposes to the desired outcomes. The question becomes: 4140: 4101: 3912: 3822: 3806: 3786: 3738: 3641: 3628: 3521: 3341: 2748: 2448:'s accumulating diffs are evidence of the problems which were brought to this RfC. 2266: 1792: 1503: 1490:

I have invited this user to cooperate with me repeatedly, (for example, see here),

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Just to clarify: the second section of Teeninvestor's response below refers to the

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C. The RfC began with a list of "desired outcomes" which still remain unaddressed.

1564:, I became concerned about said editor's personal attacks, and filed a WQA report 906:

It is notable that Teeinvestor does not cite a source for this far-reaching claim.

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actions needed to be constantly monitored by the community, this is particularly

1997:§2. These selected aspects of concern and complaint are predictably obscured by 1451:

Contra Gun Powder Ma, I added the information to the article and sourced it to a

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signed comments other than your own view or an endorsement should be directed to

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Users should not edit other people's summaries or views, except to endorse them.

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construes interactions with the community in the past as confirming today that

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Teeninvestor asked to produce relevant sources and provide balanced information

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signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to

3373:, claiming it is backed by a source, but then later on it is changed to this 2489:'s participation illustrates a misperception that Knowledge is essentially a 4040: 3506: 3066:

This is a significant factor in decision-making about potential remedies. --

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This view is presented, for example, in Teeninvestor's original versions of

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RfC/U closed after 30 days. Teeninvestor was blocked for 3 weeks (See also

3330:(is it really necessary to mention that in the 1st paragraph of the lead?) 3153:

As an outside observer, there are several things I find disturbing here.

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to address the issues involved in my RFC such as use of sources, NPOV, etc.

2364: 2544:'s responses are skewed in hopes of achieving a "win" in the long-game. -- 717: 2921: 2622: 2071:{:{collapse top|Analysis & propositions are premature at this stage}} 1572:, after which I was immediately blocked and topic banned by User:Toddst1. 1224:

RFC/U started, rather it turned to the worst. In this light, I propose a

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This game is over. There are no efforts to try to find common ground in

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Uninvolved editor, agree with above that this is an accurate portrayal.

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and not draw conclusions from sources that they do not make themselves.

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and decided against weighing in because of the high drama quotient at

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In this context, a timely new question becomes -- "If not now, when?"

386:{list the policies and guidelines that apply to the disputed conduct} 310:

observation that he may be unfamiliar with Roman history by Flamarande

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endorse the substance, strategy and style inherent in each sentence

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quoted text here which does not suggest such an imbalance in opinion

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Knowledge:Requests_for_comment/Teeninvestor#Outside view by Toddst1

2530:'s strategy and tactics cannot be framed as good for Knowledge; and 1522:. Like Athenean below, said user often distorts diffs such as this 1269:

False accusations at Chinese armies (pre-1911) in a content dispute

889:'s endorsement below, Teeinvestor has added the following claim at 437:

ANI thread started about edit warring and misleading edit summaries

187:. While the current situation deals mainly with the article on the 3061: 2987:

can't be convinced to contribute and to participate meaningfully.

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Regarding the addition of the disputed quote by Robert Temple at

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Removed sourced information with the edit summary "grammar error"

3319:, Teeninvestor reverts it on the ground that it is "instrusive" 3133:

doesn't understand what has been squandered. I do understand. --

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A summary of the debate may be found at the bottom of the page.

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.

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not vested, and investigate beyond surface behavior issues --

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User talk:Roger Davies#Tenmei's violation of ArbCom conditions

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mass removal of info related to Pomeranz and other historians

1580:. Now in this case, I have several objections to the block: 3580:

I wasn't going to comment further until I noticed this edit

1472:. Currently he is disputing the importance of the work of 3757:

I'm only going to comment that I have recently observed

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I vehemently deny misrepresenting any sources whatsoever;

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Postscript: Further incidents after this RFC/U has begun:

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with another general history published in China. Then he

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Request to respond to others' concerns regarding sourcing

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I took a look at this after Gun Powder Ma's post to the

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some days ago, inviting comment on edits to the article

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to respect this proposal, stop interacting with GPM, and

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which does not encompass A + B + C is a betrayal of the

2199:'s new diffs manifest and illustrate the problems which 1850:

the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing.

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diffs does harm to the academic integrity of Knowledge.

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Explanations that appropriate sources need to be used (

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Subsequently demonstrated to be one side of a dichotomy

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This seems to be a pure attempt at provoking conflict

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Teeninvestor's edits to articles can at times breach

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read, evaluated and absorbed a reasonably broad and

2947:'s default tactic has proven successful in this RfC. 1576:, even though this was the same user who told me to 1295:

I consider these personal issues resolved after the

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for Teeninvestor for military and economic history.

737:

a Chinese quotation that we later learn came from a

228:"Wenzhiyu is used as a term for Qing practices only" 61:

page will be deleted. The current date and time is:

29:

The following discussion is an archived record of a

3297:Teeninvestor seems to suffer from a severe case of 3235:. I'm counting 8 reverts in a little over 48 hours. 2001:in this venue and elsewhere, including a thread at 827:Uninvolved editor who finds this summary accurate. 511:{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute} 133:

Teenivinestor promises not to misrepresent sources.

2512:to respond with toxic disrespect, as demonstrated 342:when he had done no such thing (24 December 2009) 191:, the issues are long standing and are evident at 1837:My endorsement of specific paragraphs points to 348:Accuses Gun Powder Ma of calling him a "wargamer" 3118:When I hoped the 2nd "olive branch" was genuine 1848:With these additional paragraphs , I argue that 330:Accuses Gun Powder Ma of making personal attacks 197:comparative studies of the Roman and Han empires 895: 332:after Gun Powder Ma described the article as a 39:No further edits should be made to this page. 3107:When I wanted to believe the contrite message 3016:Teeninvestor's promise to "address the issues" 2949:I can find only one diff -- and one diff only 4165:No further edits should be made to this page. 3931:I'm here because Gun Powder Ma posted to the 3803:Knowledge:Editing_restrictions#Final_warnings 1496:User talk:Gun Powder Ma#Olive Branch Petition 1297:User talk:Gun Powder Ma#Olive branch Petition 8: 4136: 4116:Reminder to use the talk page for discussion 3281:List of regions by past GDP (PPP) per capita 2802:identified in 2008, including the need for 2211:brought to this dispute resolution venue. 1953:→View by certifier Gun Powder Ma: endorse ¶3 1105:List of regions by past GDP (PPP) per capita 3623:intends to continue to push an irrefutably 3100:to accept the 1st so-called "olive branch" 1635:Economic history of China (pre-1911) again 1053:, including repeated removals of POV tags: 716:one of the citations with a reference to a 506:Users certifying the basis for this dispute 358:Accuses Kanguole of making personal attacks 50:Knowledge:Requests for comment/User conduct 2762: 2280: 2091: 1825: 1574:for "Wikihounding" by filing an ANI report 452:Evidence of failing to resolve the dispute 246:that the sources support his point of view 3052:The edit history for this RfC shows that 2602:avoids responding to the actual criticism 1903:→View by certifier Kanguole: endorse ¶4-5 426:Evidence of trying to resolve the dispute 320:Accuses Gun Powder Ma of personal attacks 303:Unfounded accusations of personal attacks 3265:(without an edit summary), Nev1 reverts 3229:removing the POV tags, Athenean reverts 2798:This puts a spotlight on problems which 1431:Regarding "misrepresentation" of sources 1284:Comparison between Roman and Han Empires 720:available only in China, which has been 2765: 2367:with the "central point" or core issues 2283: 2094: 1828: 1601:the same editor who advised me to do so 597:Appears to be an accurate portrayal. - 257:England was the economic core of Europe 2258:Despite my aversion to "<small: --> 1608:Gun Powder Ma's outrageous POV pushing 1607: 340:Accuses Pmanderson of personal attacks 3383:, Teeninvestor at first self-reverts 2659:ignores. With one notable exception 1624:Military history of China (pre-1911) 1617:Economic history of China (pre-1911): 362:says Teeninvestor has misused sources 7: 3939:. Two editors responded: myself and 3542:Military history of China (pre-1911) 3389:, then proceeds to edit-war further 3378:Military history of China (pre-1911) 3313:for removing a contentious sentence 3311:Military history of China (pre-1911) 3239:Military history of China (pre-1911) 3161:Economic history of China (pre-1911) 3064:, the so-called "promise" is a sham. 2523:a contest nor a zero-sum game; and 1733:Economic history of China (pre-1911) 1355:Economic history of China (pre-1911) 761:Economic history of China (pre-1911) 677:Great Divergence#Government policies 556:Other users who endorse this summary 199:before it was completely rewritten. 3412:use Temple" meme over and and over 3402:disruption of talkpage discussions 3226:, Teen reverts to an older version 2767:patience stretched too thin -- 转胜为败 2671:"How to replicate the good work of 2285:patience stretched too thin -- 转胜为败 2096:patience stretched too thin -- 转胜为败 1830:patience stretched too thin -- 转胜为败 143:Teeninvestor promises to adhere to 136:Teeninvestor promises to adhere to 3316:, when I implement this consensus 2650:Knowledge:Escalating alphabeticals 2533:Ignoring the cumulative effect of 382:Applicable policies and guidelines 24: 2924:and time which have been invested 1164:List of regions by past GDP (PPP) 722:previously shown to be unreliable 669:Qing Dynasty#Qing Economic policy 563:As completely uninvolved editor, 140:and represent viewpoints equally. 3975:Users who endorse this summary: 3870:Users who endorse this summary: 3659:Users who endorse this summary: 3592:Users who endorse this summary: 3421:Users who endorse this summary: 2729:Users who endorse this summary: 2574:When confronted with criticism, 2217:Users who endorse this summary: 2130:learned that the community does 1739:Users who endorse this summary: 947:Users who endorse this summary: 775:Users who endorse this summary: 264:Misinformation in edit summaries 31:user conduct request for comment 3181:. That's 3 reverts in 6 hours. 1380:Voluntary restriction agreement 877:View by certifier Gun Powder Ma 290:Removes POV tag without comment 3028:'s participation in this RfC, 2972:'s recent diffs, arguing that 991:Also endorse the bit below. - 681:Qing and Yuan Dynasties debate 203:Evidence of disputed behaviour 18:Knowledge:Requests for comment 1: 3838:Outside view by Bali ultimate 3322:. A clear symptom of WP:OWN. 3020:In order evade a restriction 2943:... avoids responding ...." 48:In order to remain listed at 2926:by all the contributors. -- 2824:long-term warriors are toxic 2592:responded by accusing others 918:against his better knowledge 230:, which contradicts sources 208:Misrepresentation of sources 4153:13:24, 19 August 2010 (UTC) 4125:this page's discussion page 4110:01:54, 16 August 2010 (UTC) 4093:14:31, 14 August 2010 (UTC) 4080:03:06, 14 August 2010 (UTC) 4058:23:30, 13 August 2010 (UTC) 4049:23:23, 13 August 2010 (UTC) 4036:23:20, 13 August 2010 (UTC) 4015:23:08, 13 August 2010 (UTC) 4002:22:56, 13 August 2010 (UTC) 3988:22:50, 13 August 2010 (UTC) 3927:Outside view by Haploidavey 3921:01:52, 16 August 2010 (UTC) 3906:23:32, 13 August 2010 (UTC) 3897:18:11, 12 August 2010 (UTC) 3884:16:41, 11 August 2010 (UTC) 3866:14:48, 11 August 2010 (UTC) 3833:15:53, 18 August 2010 (UTC) 3817:15:17, 11 August 2010 (UTC) 3797:14:33, 11 August 2010 (UTC) 3747:01:50, 16 August 2010 (UTC) 3732:16:15, 14 August 2010 (UTC) 3719:23:33, 13 August 2010 (UTC) 3530:01:49, 16 August 2010 (UTC) 3143:05:14, 16 August 2010 (UTC) 3076:21:13, 15 August 2010 (UTC) 3024:which explicitly preserved 3001:15:12, 15 August 2010 (UTC) 2974:I believe I am not at fault 2934:15:12, 15 August 2010 (UTC) 2757:04:58, 18 August 2010 (UTC) 2725:15:12, 15 August 2010 (UTC) 2704:05:14, 16 August 2010 (UTC) 2637:are again made explicit in 2552:15:12, 15 August 2010 (UTC) 2482:with winners and losers. 2275:04:50, 18 August 2010 (UTC) 2228:15:12, 15 August 2010 (UTC) 1801:19:49, 17 August 2010 (UTC) 1687:and also counted these two 1392:19:02, 15 August 2010 (UTC) 1260:09:46, 15 August 2010 (UTC) 1238:07:20, 11 August 2010 (UTC) 1036:01:39, 16 August 2010 (UTC) 1016:21:04, 13 August 2010 (UTC) 867:section on the talk page. 853:01:37, 16 August 2010 (UTC) 639:01:35, 16 August 2010 (UTC) 308:Teeninvestor interprets an 101:this page's discussion page 63:08:23, 2 October 2024 (UTC) 4182: 3711:20:13, 2 August 2010 (UTC) 3698:09:23, 2 August 2010 (UTC) 3685:17:03, 1 August 2010 (UTC) 3672:01:30, 1 August 2010 (UTC) 3664:Alan the Roving Ambassador 3205:, GPM edits & reverts 3129:It's too bad, really; but 2884:Increased transparency -- 2783:understandable frustration 2742:17:41, 5 August 2010 (UTC) 2734:Alan the Roving Ambassador 1402:Regarding Great Divergence 1332:22:54, 3 August 2010 (UTC) 708:Cambridge History of China 679:. (It appears the deleted 647:View by certifier Kanguole 3609:14:02, 25 July 2010 (UTC) 3567:20:37, 29 July 2010 (UTC) 3515:23:21, 25 July 2010 (UTC) 3502:02:15, 25 July 2010 (UTC) 3486:13:50, 23 July 2010 (UTC) 3472:09:22, 23 July 2010 (UTC) 3459:07:59, 23 July 2010 (UTC) 3442:07:27, 23 July 2010 (UTC) 3434:05:33, 23 July 2010 (UTC) 3386:, but then reverts again 3220:, Teen partially reverts 2690:I don't give a damn what 2627:"regarding Gun Powder Ma" 2254:08:50, 24 July 2010 (UTC) 2241:18:09, 23 July 2010 (UTC) 1781:15:53, 30 July 2010 (UTC) 1767:17:02, 19 July 2010 (UTC) 1752:15:33, 17 July 2010 (UTC) 1648:Repeated provocations on 1468:and the actual response: 1462:Chinese armies (pre-1911) 1417:multiple academic sources 1371:09:05, 23 July 2010 (UTC) 1351:Chinese armies (pre-1911) 1347:It's been now pointed out 1309:23:34, 25 July 2010 (UTC) 1003:02:14, 25 July 2010 (UTC) 987:20:36, 21 July 2010 (UTC) 973:18:43, 20 July 2010 (UTC) 960:15:43, 20 July 2010 (UTC) 943:15:43, 20 July 2010 (UTC) 872:10:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC) 837:06:56, 28 July 2010 (UTC) 823:05:39, 23 July 2010 (UTC) 810:20:35, 21 July 2010 (UTC) 796:09:19, 19 July 2010 (UTC) 783:23:25, 18 July 2010 (UTC) 623:06:50, 28 July 2010 (UTC) 609:02:14, 25 July 2010 (UTC) 593:23:09, 17 July 2010 (UTC) 578:22:43, 17 July 2010 (UTC) 548:13:36, 17 July 2010 (UTC) 540:01:23, 17 July 2010 (UTC) 527:00:33, 17 July 2010 (UTC) 193:Chinese armies (pre-1911) 4162:Please do not modify it. 3149:Outside view by Athenean 2858:should become a priority 2775:Remedy — desired outcome 1246:and currently discussed 1051:Chinese economic reforms 108:Statement of the dispute 36:Please do not modify it. 4064:Greece and Rome project 3933:Greece and Rome project 3753:Outside view by Toddst1 3185:Chinese Economic Reform 2625:which is on display at 1678:Chinese economic reform 1650:Chinese economic reform 1578:raise the issues on ANI 1556:Regarding recent blocks 1528:Chinese economic reform 1458:Chinese economic reform 891:Chinese economic reform 3032:crafted this sentence 2964:Since this RfC began, 1821:Outside view by Tenmei 903: 4068:Talk:Roman metallurgy 3615:Outside view by N5iln 3550:, today Teeninvestor 3476:§6 (personal attack) 3232:, Teen reverts again 2931:03:47, 14 August 2010 2365:responsive engagement 2165:In the alternative, 1421:Talk:Great Divergence 1219:Proposal of topic ban 3874:1st sentence only -- 3405:, particularly here 3223:, GPM adds POV tags 2722:16:11, 5 August 2010 2639:"regarding Athenean" 2549:17:01, 1 August 2010 2161:are each disruptive. 718:general history book 480:(13 July 2010) [cf. 3849:Robert K. G. Temple 3342:tendentious editing 3211:, Athenean reverts 2378:is shown. Why not? 2225:19:13, 22 July 2010 1378:Repeated breach of 1359:Robert K. G. Temple 1265:False accusations: 1242:Topic ban proposed 865:Handling of sources 662:explained at length 326:(17 December 2009). 224:Interprets a source 218:"prohibited mining" 4141:dispute resolution 3396:of the same stuff. 2983:This RfC fails if 2856:Academic integrity 2643:"regarding Tenmei" 1446:User:Gun Powder Ma 922:query on talk page 755:(second comment). 336:(17 December 2009) 334:"fantasy scenario" 3831: 3815: 3795: 3621:User:Teeninvestor 3500: 3400:WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT 3217:, Athenean edits 3089:has over-reached. 3012: 3011: 3008: 3007: 3006: 2900: 2899: 2898: 2897: 2896: 2895: 2893: 2892: 2891: 2875: 2874: 2873: 2851: 2850: 2849: 2839: 2838: 2837: 2822: 2821: 2820: 2806: 2805: 2804: 2803: 2688:does not reject?" 2558: 2557: 2476:gaming the system 2474:is quite simply " 2464: 2463: 2462: 2461: 2436: 2435: 2434: 2431: 2430: 2429: 2428: 2419: 2418: 2417: 2416: 2415: 2414: 2413: 2412: 2411: 2410: 2409: 2408: 2403: 2402: 2401: 2400: 2389: 2388: 2387: 2386: 2372: 2371: 2370: 2369: 2347: 2346: 2345: 2344: 2331: 2330: 2329: 2328: 2327: 2314:Sharpened comment 2307: 2306: 2305: 2304: 2303: 2180: 2179: 2106:: In the context 2088: 2087: 2084: 2083: 2082: 2081: 2080: 2079: 2077: 2076: 2075: 2074: 2073: 2057: 2056: 2055: 2054: 2050: 2049: 2048: 2046: 2045: 2044: 2043: 2024: 2023: 2022: 2021: 1989: 1988: 1987: 1985: 1984: 1983: 1982: 1968: 1967: 1966: 1965: 1944: 1943: 1942: 1932: 1931: 1930: 1929: 1917: 1916: 1915: 1914: 1892: 1891: 1890: 1889: 1888: 1875: 1874: 1873: 1872: 1857: 1856: 1855: 1854: 1853: 1642:Great Divergence 1286:. In a following 1001: 887:User:FeydHuxtable 726:a second citation 607: 4173: 4164: 4107: 3957:Roman metallurgy 3937:Roman metallurgy 3918: 3825: 3809: 3789: 3744: 3607: 3605: 3600: 3572:Outside view by 3527: 3494: 3457: 3455: 3450: 3257:Great Divergence 2883: 2882: 2881: 2879: 2878: 2877: 2865: 2864: 2863: 2847: 2846: 2845: 2843: 2842: 2841: 2829: 2828: 2827: 2817: 2816: 2815: 2810: 2809: 2808: 2797: 2796: 2795: 2794: 2763: 2754: 2496:The evidence of 2485:In other words, 2457: 2456: 2455: 2454: 2426: 2425: 2424: 2423: 2407: 2406: 2405: 2398: 2397: 2396: 2395: 2393: 2392: 2391: 2384: 2383: 2382: 2381: 2376: 2375: 2374: 2356: 2355: 2354: 2353: 2351: 2350: 2349: 2341: 2340: 2339: 2338: 2335: 2334: 2333: 2323: 2322: 2321: 2320: 2319: 2299: 2298: 2297: 2296: 2295: 2281: 2272: 2174:miscalculations. 2169:PROPOSITION #4: 2141:PROPOSITION #3: 2126:and others have 2122:PROPOSITION #2: 2115:PROPOSITION #1: 2092: 2069: 2068: 2067: 2066: 2065: 2062: 2061: 2060: 2033: 2032: 2031: 2030: 2028: 2027: 2026: 2012: 2011: 2010: 2009: 1996: 1995: 1994: 1993: 1963: 1962: 1961: 1960: 1950: 1949: 1948: 1947: 1927: 1926: 1925: 1924: 1912: 1911: 1910: 1909: 1900: 1899: 1898: 1896: 1895: 1894: 1886: 1885: 1884: 1883: 1882: 1879: 1878: 1877: 1863: 1862: 1861: 1860: 1846: 1845: 1844: 1843: 1842: 1826: 1409:Kenneth Pomeranz 1357:, is a certain 1198:Roman metallurgy 1093:(removal of tag) 1082:(removal of tag) 1033: 1020:Roman metallurgy 995: 924:and another one 850: 769:Great Divergence 741:, which he also 673:Great Divergence 636: 601: 580: 575: 570: 569: 322:on the basis of 189:Great Divergence 177:Great Divergence 64: 38: 4181: 4180: 4176: 4175: 4174: 4172: 4171: 4170: 4169: 4160: 4133: 4118: 4100: 3929: 3911: 3853:Stargate (film) 3840: 3755: 3737: 3617: 3603: 3598: 3596: 3577: 3538: 3520: 3453: 3448: 3446: 3394:whole paragraph 3274:, Teen reverts 3271:, Nev1 reverts 3268:, Teen reverts 3262:, Teen reverts 3259:: Nev1 reverts 3214:, Teen reverts 3208:, Teen reverts 3202:, Teen reverts 3196:, Teen reverts 3190:, Teen reverts 3178:, Teen reverts 3172:, Teen reverts 3166:, Teen reverts 3151: 3083:core principles 3018: 3013: 2861: 2860: 2777: 2768: 2747: 2605: 2598: 2595: 2588: 2585: 2584:has frequently 2578: 2575: 2564: 2559: 2342:I don't see how 2286: 2265: 2181: 2097: 2089: 1831: 1823: 1809: 1729: 1710: 1670: 1610: 1558: 1449: 1433: 1404: 1399: 1221: 1026: 879: 843: 739:school textbook 649: 629: 573: 567: 566: 564: 558: 508: 499:(15 July 2010). 490:(15 July 2010). 472:not listened to 454: 445:(13 July 2010). 439:(15 July 2010). 428: 384: 360:after Kanguole 352:in January 2010 316:(6 April 2009). 314:personal attack 259:(16 July 2010). 248:(15 July 2010). 240:(5 July 2010). 234:(10 July 2010). 220:(3 July 2010) . 205: 164: 124: 122:Desired outcome 110: 62: 56:dispute with a 34: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 4179: 4177: 4168: 4167: 4132: 4129: 4117: 4114: 4113: 4112: 4097: 4082: 4060: 4051: 4038: 4017: 4004: 3990: 3928: 3925: 3924: 3923: 3908: 3900: 3886: 3839: 3836: 3754: 3751: 3750: 3749: 3734: 3721: 3713: 3700: 3687: 3674: 3616: 3613: 3612: 3611: 3576: 3574:User:GregJackP 3570: 3537: 3534: 3533: 3532: 3517: 3504: 3488: 3474: 3461: 3444: 3436: 3419: 3418: 3397: 3368: 3358: 3354: 3346: 3336: 3323: 3295: 3294: 3293: 3278: 3254: 3236: 3199:, GPM reverts 3182: 3150: 3147: 3146: 3145: 3126: 3125: 3124: 3123: 3122:, I was wrong. 3116: 3115:, I was wrong. 3105: 3104:, I was wrong. 3091: 3090: 3051: 3050: 3044: 3017: 3014: 3010: 3009: 3005: 3004: 2916:generosity of 2908:Recommendation 2906: 2903: 2902: 2901: 2894: 2876: 2853: 2852: 2840: 2793:is justified. 2789:and others at 2780: 2776: 2773: 2770: 2769: 2766: 2761: 2760: 2759: 2744: 2707: 2706: 2676: 2641:-above and in 2615: 2614: 2613: 2612: 2611: 2610: 2609: 2608: 2607: 2606: 2600: 2597: 2590: 2587: 2580: 2577: 2573: 2563: 2560: 2556: 2555: 2539: 2538: 2531: 2468: 2467: 2466: 2465: 2439: 2438: 2437: 2433: 2404: 2390: 2379: 2373: 2368: 2348: 2343: 2332: 2315: 2311: 2310: 2309: 2308: 2288: 2287: 2284: 2279: 2278: 2277: 2262:<small: --> 2261:<small: --> 2260:<small: --> 2259:<small: --> 2256: 2243: 2230: 2178: 2177: 2176: 2175: 2163: 2162: 2139: 2120: 2099: 2098: 2095: 2090: 2086: 2085: 2064: 2059: 2058: 2053: 2052: 2051: 2047: 2025: 1990: 1986: 1981: 1980: 1979: 1978: 1945: 1941: 1940: 1939: 1938: 1922: 1893: 1833: 1832: 1829: 1824: 1822: 1819: 1817: 1808: 1805: 1804: 1803: 1789:eschatological 1785: 1784: 1783: 1754: 1728: 1722: 1709: 1703: 1669: 1663: 1662: 1661: 1646: 1640: 1633: 1622: 1609: 1606: 1605: 1604: 1593: 1557: 1554: 1474:Joseph Needham 1448: 1442: 1432: 1429: 1403: 1400: 1398: 1395: 1376: 1375: 1374: 1373: 1337: 1336: 1335: 1334: 1312: 1292: 1276: 1273:this very page 1271:, repeated on 1220: 1217: 1216: 1215: 1214: 1213: 1212: 1211: 1206: 1192: 1191: 1190: 1189: 1188: 1187: 1182: 1177: 1172: 1158: 1157: 1156: 1155: 1154: 1153: 1148: 1143: 1138: 1133: 1128: 1123: 1118: 1113: 1099: 1098: 1097: 1096: 1095: 1094: 1088: 1083: 1077: 1072: 1066: 1060: 1047:Edit-warring: 1039: 1038: 1023: 1005: 989: 975: 962: 920:, because his 878: 875: 861: 860: 856: 855: 839: 825: 812: 798: 785: 648: 645: 644: 643: 642: 641: 625: 611: 595: 581: 557: 554: 553: 552: 551: 550: 542: 529: 507: 504: 503: 502: 501: 500: 491: 485: 475: 453: 450: 449: 448: 447: 446: 440: 427: 424: 423: 422: 421: 420: 415: 410: 405: 400: 395: 383: 380: 379: 378: 377: 376: 374: 366: 365: 355: 345: 337: 327: 317: 305: 304: 300: 299: 298:(12 July 2010) 293: 292:(12 July 2010) 287: 281: 275: 268: 267: 265: 261: 260: 249: 235: 221: 210: 209: 204: 201: 163: 160: 159: 158: 155: 152: 141: 134: 123: 120: 109: 106: 92: 91: 90: 67: 46: 42: 41: 25: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 4178: 4166: 4163: 4157: 4156: 4155: 4154: 4150: 4146: 4142: 4138: 4130: 4128: 4126: 4122: 4115: 4111: 4108: 4106: 4103: 4098: 4094: 4090: 4086: 4083: 4081: 4077: 4073: 4069: 4065: 4061: 4059: 4056: 4052: 4050: 4046: 4042: 4039: 4037: 4033: 4029: 4028:Gun Powder Ma 4025: 4021: 4020:Gun Powder Ma 4018: 4016: 4012: 4008: 4005: 4003: 3999: 3995: 3994:Bali ultimate 3991: 3989: 3985: 3981: 3978: 3977: 3976: 3973: 3969: 3966: 3962: 3958: 3952: 3950: 3946: 3942: 3938: 3934: 3926: 3922: 3919: 3917: 3914: 3909: 3907: 3904: 3901: 3898: 3894: 3890: 3889:Gun Powder Ma 3887: 3885: 3881: 3877: 3873: 3872: 3871: 3868: 3867: 3863: 3859: 3858:Bali ultimate 3854: 3850: 3844: 3837: 3835: 3834: 3829: 3824: 3819: 3818: 3813: 3808: 3804: 3799: 3798: 3793: 3788: 3784: 3781: 3778: 3774: 3773:Gun Powder Ma 3770: 3767: 3764: 3760: 3752: 3748: 3745: 3743: 3740: 3735: 3733: 3729: 3725: 3722: 3720: 3717: 3714: 3712: 3708: 3704: 3701: 3699: 3695: 3691: 3690:Gun Powder Ma 3688: 3686: 3682: 3678: 3675: 3673: 3669: 3665: 3662: 3661: 3660: 3657: 3654: 3652: 3648: 3643: 3639: 3635: 3630: 3626: 3622: 3614: 3610: 3606: 3601: 3595: 3594: 3593: 3590: 3588: 3585: 3582: 3575: 3571: 3569: 3568: 3564: 3560: 3556: 3553: 3549: 3546: 3543: 3535: 3531: 3528: 3526: 3523: 3518: 3516: 3512: 3508: 3505: 3503: 3498: 3493: 3489: 3487: 3483: 3479: 3475: 3473: 3469: 3465: 3464:Gun Powder Ma 3462: 3460: 3456: 3451: 3445: 3443: 3440: 3437: 3435: 3431: 3427: 3424: 3423: 3422: 3416: 3414: 3411: 3407: 3404: 3401: 3398: 3395: 3391: 3388: 3385: 3382: 3379: 3375: 3372: 3369: 3366: 3364: 3362: 3359: 3355: 3352: 3347: 3344: 3343: 3337: 3334: 3332: 3329: 3327: 3324: 3321: 3318: 3315: 3312: 3308: 3306: 3304: 3300: 3296: 3291: 3289: 3287: 3285: 3282: 3279: 3276: 3273: 3270: 3267: 3264: 3261: 3258: 3255: 3252: 3249: 3247: 3245: 3243: 3240: 3237: 3234: 3231: 3228: 3225: 3222: 3219: 3216: 3213: 3210: 3207: 3204: 3201: 3198: 3195: 3192: 3189: 3187:: GPM edits 3186: 3183: 3180: 3177: 3174: 3171: 3168: 3165: 3162: 3159: 3158: 3156: 3155: 3154: 3148: 3144: 3140: 3136: 3132: 3128: 3127: 3121: 3117: 3114: 3110: 3106: 3103: 3099: 3098:Gun Powder Ma 3096:When I urged 3095: 3094: 3093: 3092: 3088: 3084: 3080: 3079: 3078: 3077: 3073: 3069: 3063: 3059: 3055: 3048: 3045: 3042: 3039: 3038: 3037: 3035: 3031: 3027: 3023: 3003: 3002: 2998: 2994: 2990: 2986: 2981: 2979: 2976:and that the 2975: 2971: 2967: 2962: 2960: 2956: 2952: 2946: 2942: 2938: 2937: 2936: 2935: 2932: 2929: 2925: 2923: 2919: 2913: 2909: 2890: 2887: 2880: 2872: 2869: 2859: 2857: 2844: 2836: 2833: 2825: 2814: 2813: 2812: 2811: 2807: 2801: 2792: 2788: 2784: 2774: 2772: 2771: 2764: 2758: 2755: 2753: 2750: 2745: 2743: 2739: 2735: 2732: 2731: 2730: 2727: 2726: 2723: 2720: 2716: 2715:zero-sum game 2712: 2709:Knowledge is 2705: 2701: 2697: 2693: 2689: 2687: 2683: 2680:How to build 2677: 2674: 2670: 2669: 2668: 2666: 2662: 2658: 2653: 2651: 2648: 2644: 2640: 2636: 2632: 2628: 2624: 2620: 2603: 2599: 2596: 2593: 2589: 2586: 2583: 2579: 2576: 2572: 2571: 2570: 2569: 2568: 2561: 2554: 2553: 2550: 2547: 2543: 2536: 2532: 2529: 2526: 2525: 2524: 2522: 2519:Knowledge is 2517: 2515: 2511: 2507: 2503: 2499: 2494: 2492: 2491:zero-sum game 2488: 2483: 2481: 2477: 2473: 2470:In this RfC, 2460: 2453: 2452: 2451: 2450: 2449: 2447: 2443: 2432: 2421: 2420: 2394: 2380: 2377: 2366: 2363: 2359: 2352: 2337: 2326: 2318: 2317: 2316: 2313: 2312: 2302: 2294: 2293: 2292: 2291: 2290: 2289: 2282: 2276: 2273: 2271: 2268: 2257: 2255: 2251: 2247: 2246:Gun Powder Ma 2244: 2242: 2238: 2234: 2231: 2229: 2226: 2223: 2220: 2219: 2218: 2215: 2212: 2210: 2206: 2205:Gun Powder Ma 2202: 2198: 2194: 2190: 2187: 2185: 2172: 2168: 2167: 2166: 2160: 2156: 2152: 2151:Gun Powder Ma 2148: 2144: 2140: 2137: 2133: 2129: 2125: 2121: 2118: 2114: 2113: 2112: 2109: 2105: 2101: 2100: 2093: 2078: 2072: 2042: 2037: 2029: 2020: 2016: 2008: 2007: 2006: 2005: 2004: 2000: 1992: 1991: 1975: 1971: 1970:Gun Powder Ma 1959: 1958: 1957: 1956: 1954: 1946: 1935: 1923: 1920: 1908: 1907: 1906: 1905: 1904: 1897: 1881: 1880: 1876: 1870: 1866: 1858: 1852: 1851: 1840: 1839:core policies 1835: 1834: 1827: 1820: 1818: 1815: 1814: 1806: 1802: 1798: 1794: 1790: 1786: 1782: 1778: 1774: 1770: 1769: 1768: 1764: 1760: 1755: 1753: 1749: 1745: 1742: 1741: 1740: 1737: 1734: 1726: 1723: 1721: 1718: 1714: 1708: 1704: 1702: 1699: 1694: 1690: 1686: 1681: 1679: 1674: 1673:User:Athenean 1668: 1667:User:Athenean 1664: 1659: 1655: 1651: 1647: 1645: 1641: 1638: 1634: 1631: 1627: 1623: 1621: 1616: 1615: 1614: 1602: 1598: 1594: 1591: 1588: 1583: 1582: 1581: 1579: 1575: 1571: 1567: 1563: 1555: 1553: 1552: 1549: 1546: 1543: 1540: 1535: 1533: 1529: 1525: 1521: 1517: 1513: 1509: 1505: 1501: 1497: 1493: 1488: 1487: 1483: 1479: 1475: 1471: 1467: 1463: 1459: 1454: 1447: 1443: 1441: 1437: 1430: 1428: 1424: 1422: 1418: 1414: 1410: 1401: 1396: 1394: 1393: 1389: 1385: 1384:Gun Powder Ma 1381: 1372: 1368: 1364: 1363:Gun Powder Ma 1360: 1356: 1352: 1348: 1345: 1344: 1342: 1339: 1338: 1333: 1329: 1325: 1324:Gun Powder Ma 1321: 1317: 1313: 1311: 1310: 1306: 1302: 1301:Gun Powder Ma 1298: 1293: 1289: 1285: 1281: 1277: 1274: 1270: 1267: 1266: 1264: 1263: 1262: 1261: 1257: 1253: 1252:Gun Powder Ma 1249: 1245: 1240: 1239: 1235: 1231: 1230:Gun Powder Ma 1227: 1218: 1210: 1207: 1205: 1202: 1201: 1199: 1196: 1195: 1194: 1193: 1186: 1183: 1181: 1178: 1176: 1173: 1171: 1168: 1167: 1165: 1162: 1161: 1160: 1159: 1152: 1149: 1147: 1144: 1142: 1139: 1137: 1134: 1132: 1129: 1127: 1124: 1122: 1119: 1117: 1114: 1112: 1109: 1108: 1106: 1103: 1102: 1101: 1100: 1092: 1089: 1087: 1084: 1081: 1078: 1076: 1073: 1070: 1067: 1064: 1061: 1058: 1055: 1054: 1052: 1049: 1048: 1046: 1045: 1044: 1043: 1037: 1034: 1032: 1029: 1024: 1021: 1017: 1013: 1009: 1006: 1004: 999: 994: 990: 988: 984: 980: 976: 974: 970: 966: 963: 961: 957: 953: 952:Gun Powder Ma 950: 949: 948: 945: 944: 940: 936: 935:Gun Powder Ma 930: 927: 923: 919: 915: 911: 907: 902: 900: 894: 892: 888: 885: 876: 874: 873: 870: 866: 858: 857: 854: 851: 849: 846: 840: 838: 834: 830: 826: 824: 820: 816: 813: 811: 807: 803: 799: 797: 793: 789: 788:Gun Powder Ma 786: 784: 781: 778: 777: 776: 773: 770: 764: 762: 756: 754: 752: 750: 746: 744: 740: 736: 732: 727: 723: 719: 715: 710: 709: 704: 699: 696: 692: 690: 688: 685: 682: 678: 674: 670: 665: 663: 659: 655: 646: 640: 637: 635: 632: 626: 624: 620: 616: 612: 610: 605: 600: 596: 594: 590: 586: 582: 579: 576: 571: 562: 561: 560: 559: 555: 549: 546: 543: 541: 537: 533: 532:Gun Powder Ma 530: 528: 524: 520: 517: 516: 515: 514: 513: 512: 505: 498: 495: 492: 489: 486: 483: 479: 476: 473: 469: 465: 461: 460: 459: 458: 457: 451: 444: 441: 438: 435: 434: 433: 432: 431: 425: 419: 416: 414: 411: 409: 406: 404: 401: 399: 396: 394: 391: 390: 389: 388: 387: 381: 375: 373: 372: 371: 370: 369: 363: 359: 356: 353: 349: 346: 343: 341: 338: 335: 331: 328: 325: 321: 318: 315: 311: 307: 306: 302: 301: 297: 294: 291: 288: 286:(4 July 2010) 285: 282: 280:(3 July 2010) 279: 276: 274:(26 May 2010) 273: 270: 269: 266: 263: 262: 258: 254: 251:Interpreting 250: 247: 243: 239: 236: 233: 229: 226:to mean that 225: 222: 219: 215: 212: 211: 207: 206: 202: 200: 198: 194: 190: 186: 182: 178: 174: 169: 168: 161: 156: 153: 150: 146: 142: 139: 135: 132: 131: 130: 129: 121: 119: 115: 114: 107: 105: 104: 102: 98: 88: 85: 82: 79: 76: 72: 69: 68: 66: 59: 55: 51: 45: 40: 37: 32: 27: 26: 19: 4161: 4158: 4134: 4120: 4119: 4099: 3974: 3970: 3964: 3960: 3953: 3948: 3944: 3930: 3910: 3869: 3845: 3841: 3820: 3800: 3779: 3765: 3759:Teeninvestor 3756: 3736: 3658: 3655: 3618: 3591: 3579: 3578: 3551: 3539: 3519: 3420: 3409: 3393: 3357:problematic. 3350: 3340: 3193:, GPM edits 3175:, GPM edits 3169:, GPM edits 3163:: GPM edits 3152: 3131:Teeninvestor 3113:Patar knight 3087:Teeninvestor 3065: 3054:Teeninvestor 3046: 3040: 3030:Teeninvestor 3026:Teeninvestor 3019: 2989:Teeninvestor 2985:Teeninvestor 2982: 2970:Teeninvestor 2966:Teeninvestor 2963: 2959:Teeninvestor 2955:Teeninvestor 2953:-- in which 2948: 2945:Teeninvestor 2941:Teeninvestor 2930: 2915: 2907: 2904: 2885: 2867: 2855: 2854: 2831: 2823: 2782: 2778: 2746: 2728: 2721: 2710: 2708: 2692:Teeninvestor 2686:Teeninvestor 2679: 2665:Teeninvestor 2657:Teeninvestor 2654: 2646: 2631:Teeninvestor 2619:Teeninvestor 2616: 2601: 2591: 2582:Teeninvestor 2565: 2548: 2542:Teeninvestor 2540: 2535:Teeninvestor 2528:Teeninvestor 2520: 2518: 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