1129:- this is not POV nor is it pejorative. This is a term that is generally delineated and covered in the scientific community; that being what is claimed to be science, but is inherently not science. At my school, we will even discuss pseudoscience (using that term) and what makes these "fields" different from true science. I must also take exception with the original reasons for deletion: there have been many contentious debates here at wikipedia between the pseudoscientific and the scientific communities which has led to the deletion of virtually any information in the leadins to articles that cite the subject as being pseudoscience. The nominator also claims it is not in widespread use. This is again mostly due to what I would call a POV push to avoid having a particular label in place that is universally accepted in the mainstream scientific community. I think the infobox needs to be cleaned up, but that is hardly a reason to delete. DGG claims that the opening paragraph will automatically delineate the article as being "pseudoscientific" without that tag. I only wish that were true. As an educator, I see far too many people who cannot tell the difference between the scientific and the pretenders to science. Knowledge is missing out on a true opportunity to clearly and unambiguously educate by putting this simple tag on articles. Otherwise, a great many articles descend into constant edit warring and end up as poorly written, ambiguous articles which only serve to further confuse an important issue.
609:"Professor Michael Baum, a famous old bruiser and opponent of complementary medicine. He is a surgeon, and surgery is the branch of medicine that has the weakest evidence base.The history of surgery is a history of mutilating operations that did far more harm than good - including hemicorporectomy (removing the lower half of the body in patients with bladder cancer). Baum is a breast surgeon, and his colleagues were until very recently performing radical mastectomies (removing the breast, the chest muscles, clearing the armpit, and more) despite evidence that a lumpectomy (simply removing the cancer) was just as effective." There are very few double-blind placebo controlled trials in surgery.
389:] How many "pseudosciences" have this body of basic science and clinical research? Further, according to the BMJ, it has been shown that 37% of British and 40% of Dutch physicians prescribe homeopathic medicines (and there is separate evidence that approximately 30-40% of French physicians and 20% of German physicians prescribe homeopathic medicines...I can provide these references later if requested). Also, homeopathy plays a major role in the care of a large number of Europeans. This article from the BMJ shows that between 16-56% of people in European countries use homeopathic medicines.
761:) it makes it look like that has been proposed inside that scientific field, and that's original research. The next line is "Core tenets", and because many topics where this box might be on are complicated and disputed, that is likely to lead to simplifications, unclear text, and probably new disputes. It's better to describe basic things in the lead. And the box doesn't relate to the topics of the articles in a way that the only thing they may have in common is that someone thinks they are scientific, but they are not generally accepted to be. Best regards
387:]. According to the Annals in Internal Medicine, three independent systematic reviews of placebo-controlled trials on homeopathy reported that its effects seem to be more than placebo, and one review found its effects consistent with placebo. There is also evidence from randomized, controlled trials that homeopathy may be effective for the treatment of influenza, allergies, postoperative ileus, and childhood diarrhea. Evidence suggests that homeopathy is ineffective for migraine, delayed-onset muscle soreness, and influenza prevention.
1000:. There's never a real need for an infobox in any article at all. But since we're not getting rid of them all, there's no reason to come after this one in particular, as it very clearly isn't opinionated or in violation of NPOV. Pseudoscience is pseudoscience, saying so isn't an opinion, and an encyclopedia should label it as such. There's a very good reason that labeling something "pseudoscientific" is often seen as "pejorative." But that doesn't mean we have to portray all rubbish in a positive light. --
354:. If your intention is to violate Knowledge policy by changing articles on subjects that you do not like into "debunking" articles, then you will love the "Pseudoscience" box. The average Knowledge reader does not interpret such perjorative labels as being there for "navigation" - but as the official view and position of Knowledge regarding the subject matter of the article.
1372:). Proponents from the mobile phone industry would gladly label articles about the health risks from EMF radiation as pseudoscience, the food industry would gladly label the critique against trans fats as pseudoscience etc. Articles about fringe and bizarre viewpoints are best dealt with in the text with a disclaimer in the Lead section.
1317:, and the template may not be necessary. However, for some articles where there are vocal proponents pushing their rubbish junk science (and a relative lack of interest from other, more mainstream quarters), this template is on the first line of defense as a sure warning to readers that the material presented in the article is
1368:: An additional comment. This term is useful and valuable but has sometimes been transformed into an attack term by POV-pushers. If we decide to keep it I can foresee endless future controversies where POV-pushers will try to stretch the term in a maximalistic way. (Just look at the controversies around the article
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Per Above. Obvious POV. Too biased even for obvious pseudoscience, and when used completely impossible to have an article consistent with NPOV where it says "We should write articles with the tone that all positions presented are at least worthy of unbiased representation, bearing in mind that views
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You'd be surprised what otherwise intelligent people believe. Astrology is common amongst the general population, including Dr's and scientists. There is also the largely discredited field of "medical astrology", and astrological consultants that work with doctors in some countries. Please be polite
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An infobox conveys a message to the general readers that this is an "Official
Knowledge Position" in a much stronger way than the article text itself. The infobox is normally used for neutral facts. The concept pseudoscience is valuable but unfortunatelty it has been hi-jacked by proponents of one
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The immediately provoking dispute was the one on homeopathy, but we have had many similar disputes on other articles. I don't see the point of the tag. if the article on homeopathy is properly written, the lack of scientific status will be evident from the first paragraph. All articles to which it
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is not to delete a template that is used, uncontroversially, at a variety of other articles. I've been working on placing this infobox in relevant articles for a week or so. While the box could be improved, I do not think it needs to be deleted. NPOV and "punative" objections seem weird. If people
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Please stick to the subject at hand, Dana. You have been asked to do this once already. TfD is not the place to debate categories or the relative merits of the individual uses of templates (these may be mentioned, but missuse of a template is not the same as a template of missuse)
554:. This infobox does account only for the tenets and the proponents of the discipline (or whatever it is) but does not account for its opponents and the reasons why it is considered a pseudoscience; hence this infobox is useless because it does not provide useful information. --
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take offense to their pet idea being pseudoscientific, that's not exactly
Knowledge's problem. We aren't asserting a point-of-view by pointing out that a topic is pseudoscience any more than we are asserting a point-of-view by asserting a topic is about
1309:) are filled with otherwise extremely technical details which may sound plausible to someone without the required background to reject them as the total lunacy that they are. In a perfect world, such articles would all comply with NPOV, specifically
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do not need such a template. It will either be obvious, or debatable. We have wasted too much time debating these. Debates on such tags are essentially lame--we would do better writing the articles to achieve the provision of sourced information.
192:. This infobox serves the purpose of summarizing the major claims of the topic, showing who proposed it, and framing it historically. Oftentimes, these facts are found in very disparate locations throughout an article (or, in the case of
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which are in the extreme minority do not belong in
Knowledge at all. We should present all significant, competing views impartially." No article with this box can maintain overall neutrality of tone. โโ
215:-- yes, you are: you're asserting the point of view that the topic is pseudoscience. "pseudo" is a Greek root meaning to lie. To claim that something is pseudoscience is to claim something about it. --
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The term "pseudoscience" is a pejorative and POV term that is subjectively given to select topics without adequate precision. Here's a review of 67 in vitro trials (1/3 of which were replication trials)
233:. It has a straightforward definition if not straightfoward connotations/etymology. Sure, people don't like the term because they don't like their pet ideas being called "pseudo-" anything, but that's
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We already have a category for this. The template just seems to be an attempt to make this insult more prominent. The template doesn't actually seem to provide useful summary content.
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But it could probably do with a 'core flaws' part to match the tenets, to present the relevant information at a glance without having to get too in-depth in the introductory paragraphs.
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I have already stated my opinion on delete, but if there is consensus that we should keep, I assume that we should also add to the category of pseudoscience all of the articles on
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As previously stated, the above may or may not be my personal opinion. I figured that an effective answer regarding the template would best be gained through TfD assessment โ
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This is mostly a procedural nomination, to resolve differences in opinions over the general suitability of the infobox. As such, the reasons expressed here may not be my own:
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Knowledge's problem. As I said, indicating that a topic is pseudoscience with this infobox is no more a POV than indicating a topic is about intelligent design with the
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We are writing for the general public. The term may -or may not- be in general use within the scientific community, but it is jargon to the general public. And it is
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Dana, please address the issues with the template in general only, not issues with a specific application of the template (which is a debate for the article itself).
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and its various sub-articles in the light of the words of Robert Smith, former editor of BMJ, says that much conventional medicine, especially surgery, is unproven:
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although I disagree with nearly all the tenuous and WP:POINTy reasons given for delete, such as Dana Ullman's, except for the good reasons given by the nominator --
350:. The "Pseudoscience" box placed on an article distorts and compromises efforts to present the subject with a neutral tone as required by the NPOV policy on
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tags can work inside templates if a variable is added for that purpose, so inability to provide references shouldn't be part of the reason for deletion. --
753:. The box is confusing and I don't think it improves the quality of the articles. When it first states "pseudoscience" and then "discipline" (for example
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Dana asks: "how many "pseudosciences" have this amount of support from the medical community as well as the general public?" Astrology, for one --
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Contents summarised by an infobox typically contain content that would be in an article or section lead anyhow - hence little need for an infobox
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pejorative. Thus, using it in the article creates bias without information. The information is what should create the bias in the reader. โโ
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738:, I thought this was the navigation box. Looking at the articles it is used in it seems redundant with the text. Agree with jossi here.
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391:] Once again, how many "pseudosciences" have this amount of support from the medical community as well as the general public?
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It is not
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Hey RDO, please give me that reference to the use of astrology by medical doctors. Yeah, I didn't think so.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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sourcing within the article. Improve the template per noms suggestions and apply to more
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Is not in wide use - by my count it is used in 15 articles, out of 173 within the
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Dana, you're already on special measures. Your question was answered --
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truly unquestionably applies will be obvious anyway: the articles on
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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1591:). No further edits should be made to this section.
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1267:, LonelyBeacon, Relata refero, Vsmith and of course
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515:Knowledge:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Pseudoscience
884:a few names out of thousands are selected. --
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1022:in the context of science articles. Sheesh.
967:, i.e., only tiny-minority absurdies like
1327:Beware: This article is a pseudoscience.
1113:note a day after writing your first. --
321:will object to the placement on their
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150:Is often used punitively on articles
517:. By the way I believe <ref: -->
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323:favorite variety of pseudoscience
1095:per Jossi, Olive and DGG above.
18:Knowledge:Templates for deletion
1596:The result of the debate was
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1533:User experiment, abandoned .
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732:Keep useful navigation tool.
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855:- inhearantly pov. and per
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1059:per Jossi, DGG, and Olive.
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1605:(Kick 'em in the Dishpan!)
943:per Jossi and DGG above.
239:Intelligent Design infobox
93:(Kick 'em in the Dishpan!)
689:. Call a spade a spade,
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1189:per Vsmith above.
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1370:pseudoscience
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1307:Torsion field
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1278:
1274:
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1240:TheDoctorIsIn
1237:
1234:
1232:
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1200:
1196:
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1191:Alpha Omicron
1188:
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1078:DrEightyEight
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1024:Relata refero
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963:criteria for
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518:</ref: -->
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86:no consensus.
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44:
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23:
19:
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1649:
1648:
1601:RyanGerbil10
1597:
1595:
1583:
1580:
1557:
1554:
1532:
1500:Template:BTE
1488:
1482:
1473:
1471:
1459:
1456:
1449:Template:BTE
1433:
1430:
1407:
1390:
1365:
1343:
1331:Silly rabbit
1326:
1322:
1318:
1302:
1285:
1252:
1235:
1211:
1203:
1186:
1156:
1152:
1131:LonelyBeacon
1126:
1110:
1092:
1073:
1056:
1038:
1019:
1015:
1011:
997:
977:attributably
952:
940:
921:
904:
902:
898:
873:
861:Rocksanddirt
852:
835:
820:
806:
795:
786:
775:
768:
750:
735:
731:
710:And use the
686:
658:
644:
599:
579:
568:
551:
535:per Vsmith.
532:
520:
510:
499:
491:
474:
469:
435:
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407:
382:
368:
347:
330:
322:
318:
314:
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264:
259:
229:Please read
212:
176:
160:
136:
89:RyanGerbil10
85:
83:
71:
68:
1704:per nom. -
1535:Leo Laursen
1395:John Nevard
1319:not science
957:WP:POINTily
955:because it
638:LinaMishima
636:Agree with
624:LinaMishima
571:Agree with
426:LinaMishima
315:controversy
190:creationism
163:LinaMishima
1412:User:Jossi
1321:. I vote
985:Jim Butler
886:Salix alba
840:Tparameter
796:Levine2112
734:Change to
666:WP:POINTty
652:Danaullman
479:Zonbalance
333:articles.
217:Coppertwig
181:homeopathy
55:February 3
43:February 4
38:February 2
1598:deletion.
1478:WP:CSD#G2
1311:WP:FRINGE
1273:Shot info
1269:WP:COMMON
1208:WP:POLICY
926:Dreadstar
882:astrology
814:& on
812:astrology
712:Duck test
373:โ jossi โ
356:Arion 3x3
194:astrology
1706:Darwinek
1315:WP:UNDUE
1261:WP:SPADE
1212:rational
1097:Anthon01
1061:TimidGuy
945:Abridged
909:Anthon01
764:Rhanyeia
740:David D.
691:WP:SPADE
662:contribs
648:contribs
583:contribs
523:Nealparr
453:RDOlivaw
412:RDOlivaw
286:Serious
20: |
1660:detroit
1629:history
1513:history
1410:- per
1374:MaxPont
1366:Comment
1349:MaxPont
1265:WP:NPOV
1257:WP:DUCK
1222:Zenwhat
961:WP:PSCI
791:WP:PSCI
755:biology
716:Bubba73
695:Bubba73
604:surgery
600:Comment
556:Achillu
511:Comment
436:comment
422:comment
408:comment
331:obvious
260:Delete.
117:history
1702:Delete
1674:Delete
1650:Delete
1408:Delete
1344:Delete
1286:Delete
1236:DELETE
1159:Martin
1153:always
1111:delete
1093:Delete
1074:Delete
1057:Delete
1039:Delete
953:Delete
941:Delete
922:Delete
899:delete
874:delete
853:delete
807:Delete
787:Delete
751:Delete
743:(Talk)
736:Delete
719:(talk)
698:(talk)
614:Ullman
573:Vsmith
552:Delete
492:Delete
443:Ullman
396:Ullman
383:Delete
377:(talk)
369:Delete
348:Delete
335:Vsmith
267:Martin
1693:melon
1687:Happy
1637:watch
1633:links
1521:watch
1517:links
1489:melon
1483:Happy
1043:olive
1012:Keep'
859:. --
793:. --
569:Keep.
542:Stalk
538:Hrafn
533:Keep:
327:WP:RS
125:watch
121:links
46:: -->
16:<
1710:talk
1641:logs
1625:talk
1621:edit
1525:logs
1509:talk
1505:edit
1476:per
1420:talk
1416:John
1399:talk
1391:Keep
1378:talk
1353:talk
1335:talk
1323:Keep
1313:and
1303:Keep
1294:talk
1277:talk
1255:per
1253:Keep
1244:talk
1227:talk
1206:per
1204:Keep
1195:talk
1187:Keep
1135:talk
1127:Keep
1101:talk
1082:talk
1065:talk
1047:talk
1028:talk
998:Keep
983:. --
913:talk
890:talk
876:per
865:talk
844:talk
836:Keep
827:talk
789:per
757:for
687:Keep
674:talk
670:Cirt
656:talk
642:talk
628:talk
611:Dana
591:talk
587:Cirt
585:).
577:talk
560:talk
501:talk
496:Whig
483:talk
475:Keep
457:talk
440:Dana
430:talk
416:talk
393:Dana
360:talk
339:talk
311:Keep
300:talk
247:talk
221:talk
202:talk
177:Keep
167:talk
129:logs
113:talk
109:edit
35:<
1657:MJC
1271:.
1016:not
857:DGG
822:DGG
714:.
693:.
668:.
317:as
235:not
188:or
22:Log
1712:)
1682:}}
1678:{{
1676:-
1639:|
1635:|
1631:|
1627:|
1623:|
1542:ยฆ
1538:(
1523:|
1519:|
1515:|
1511:|
1507:|
1422:)
1414:--
1401:)
1380:)
1355:)
1337:)
1329:"
1296:)
1279:)
1263:,
1259:,
1246:)
1229:)
1197:)
1171:โโ
1166:ฮจ
1137:)
1115:RG
1103:)
1084:)
1067:)
1049:)
1030:)
1002:RG
991:)
915:)
892:)
867:)
846:)
829:)
721:,
700:,
676:)
630:)
593:)
562:)
504:)
485:)
459:)
362:)
341:)
302:)
294:.
279:โโ
274:ฮจ
249:)
223:)
204:)
169:)
127:|
123:|
119:|
115:|
111:|
1708:(
1690:โ
1643:)
1619:(
1546:)
1544:C
1540:T
1527:)
1503:(
1486:โ
1418:(
1397:(
1376:(
1351:(
1333:(
1292:(
1275:(
1242:(
1225:(
1217:โฏ
1193:(
1168:ฮฆ
1164:โ
1133:(
1099:(
1080:(
1063:(
1053:)
1045:(
1026:(
989:t
987:(
931:โ
911:(
888:(
863:(
842:(
825:(
777:โซ
770:โฅ
672:(
659:ยท
654:(
645:ยท
640:(
626:(
589:(
580:ยท
575:(
558:(
498:(
481:(
455:(
432:)
428:(
418:)
414:(
358:(
337:(
298:(
276:ฮฆ
272:โ
245:(
219:(
200:(
165:(
131:)
107:(
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