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not make easier. Flags simply make it a lot easier. And often it is not a player or team that readers are looking for, but actually a nationality. I, for one, use them often to find out how my fellow
Belgians performed in sports events. I donât know the names of every single Belgian tennis player, for instance, from the back of my head so the presence of flags in these articles is invaluable. If it hadnât been for the flags in our lists of grand slam winners, I wouldnât have found that there was Belgian winner of a Wimbledon doubles title called
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1303:. I see no issue in the least here. Now, do I think some articles go overboard even though they are within the letter of the law? Sure. I think when I see draws we really only need the flag at the beginning of the draw for each player. Then I'd use the flags again for the final. In-between rounds it's just overkill. But it's so ingrained in the editing system it's impossible to change, and there are so many things at wikipedia that really need our attention that this issue it microcosmically wimpy.
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762:"Representative nationality" clearly means that the person is representing their country at the sporting event. They may not be part of a national team, but they are competing on behalf of their country rather than on behalf of a team of some kind. In the case of the cycling events like the Tour de France, the riders are not representing their countries, which is why I added the new guidance (that apparently should have been added many years ago). â
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That's why we usually only include things where they are representating a country, where the flag and associated text gives us information that is relevant. Someone being
Belgian isn't all that relevant in of itself. If that person is listed in sources as representing that country, that is what makes
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My thoughts? I think we should probably change it to be a bit more of how
Knowledge (XXG) works in general. Does the flag get used in the context of what you are showing in the majority of reliable sources? If the flag is relevant and important, it will also be included in the sources. If it's cruft,
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The preceding discussion shows very clearly that there were users misunderstanding the wording. My addition was to try to make it more clear that the things before and after the or in this case are different things. Or can join synonyms but just as well present a choice. In this case itâs the latter
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Nope. Wrong. We only show their sporting/representative nationality. You know, the nationality they compete under. Thatâs why football articles use nationalities like
English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish instead of the playersâ legal nationality of British. Thatâs why tennis articles uses the
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First of all, there is no law here. Secondly, Iâve seen the argument that flags are only useful at the beginning of a draw pop up a couple of times and I honestly have to disagree with it. Having them there for every round allows you to scan the route a certain player took through a tournament in a
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I feel like this gets brought up constantly and those who like the flags will argue for their inclusion. In reality, the line where someone "represents a nationality" is quite vague. In some sports you only represent yourself, but some users are convinced that your nationality implies that you also
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Aesthetics should never be prioritized over functionality. Flags arenât placed there for decoration. They are there for informative reasons and because they actually aid in parsing tables and draws. It certainly would still be possible to find and track a name without flags, but it would certainly
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I don't really like it in a roster (or teamsheet) as those players clearly aren't representing those nations. However, there might be times when you might want to indicate something, such as when there is a domestic limit for foreign players, but even then I'd rather we identified this differently
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Lee, this isnât about whether the nationalities are relevant, that already has been established in multiple previous discussion. And thatâs not even for this MOS to judge. This is on how to represent them. And flags are the most straightforward way to that. Birthtowns and enjoyment are ridiculous
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Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject is widely perceived to represent that country, government, or nationality â such as military units, government officials, national sports teams or athletes in international events in which nationality is routinely reported in the
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without having to click on every single name in those lists. Sure in your example the bare names would be easier to read without the flags, but you would also remove invaluable information. As the charts stand now, I can see in literally second how many of these tournaments were won by my felloy
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I would prefer that you stop repeating this misleading claim that some WikiProkpjects are exempt. No WikiProject is exempt from MOS, nor do WikiProjects hold authority over certain articles. There were simply discussions in the past and consensus was achieved that national representation is not
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I received a number of "Thanks" response to my addition to the page, since it is apparently an unspoken consensus. It sounds, however, like one or two of you are confused, and one or two are unclear on the what specific words mean in context on this page. For now, we are back where we started:
604:- the MOS:SPORTSFLAG is not followed in a variety of sports including Formula 1, cycling, golf and others - where people compete in a non-representative way. Regarding Formula 1, it was previously determined that the racers actually do represent their country! The 2014 RfC concluded "
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I know it's a matter of opinion on that. It can be minorly useful in scanning but at the cost of esthetics.... it looks lousy. And for me I scan the player name. I have no issues in college basketball playoff grids in seeing a team's path without seeing a flag icon. And charts like
550:... flags should only indicate the sportsperson's national squad/team or representative nationality. Where flags are used in a table, it should clearly indicate that they correspond to representative nationality, not legal nationality, if any confusion might arise.
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national flags are being used in many sports articles to show legal nationality of sports participants who did not represent their countries in those competitions, contrary to the wording of this MOS page. I hope that someone can resolve this discrepancy. â
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Being able to see at a glance how many people won something who were a specific nationality is pretty crufty. Where do you draw the line with things like that, what if I wanted to know how many people were from my birthtown? How many really enjoyed
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I honestly donât think that was needed. It was never limited to national teams. It said âflags should only indicate the sportsperson's national squad/team or representative nationalityâ. You clearly missed the âor representative nationalityâ
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Some leagues or other competitions have restrictions on the number of foreign players in a team. But for the players' own national teams to be indicated in a sub-national team list, it really only makes sense if you know what the rules are.
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We see it a bit differently. The flags inform upon first use in a chart, they bludgeon when used over and over again. But that's a matter for the
Knowledge (XXG) Projects to decide, not here.
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Belgians. Besides, we establishes in previous discussions that nationalities should be mentioned and now matter how you turn it, flags are the most simple and intuitive way to achieve that.
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been personal opinion and what the logical conclusion of previously established consensus seems rather arbitrary: the relevant RFC discussion doesn't ever seem to suggest that the
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I don't think the existing wording needs to be broadened as significantly as was proposed, though open to seeing potential clarification drafts if others feel that is necessary.
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in question is necessary for clearly communicating the intent of the guideline it authors. Instead, this position would seem to be Tvx1's personal opinion, as I've only seen
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The column says "Country", so people might be funny about it either way. What I would do for maximum flexibility and minimum clutter is change the column to "Polity" and use
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being an alternative. "National squad/team" and "representative nationality", already being so closely related, would be clearer with different wording than the ambiguous
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A clear consensus that flags may be used to represent sporting nationality, though the discussion did not significantly address the circumstances of their use."
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Please propose new language that addresses the confusion above, along with the long-standing consensus that some WikiProjects are exempt from this guidance. â
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Flag icons are good indication of quality of the article to experienced editors. Soon as you see them you assume work needs to be done to improve the article.
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Yes, but wording that is within the perview of this segment of MOS. Itâs not up to MOS to judge whether nationality is relevant to a particular sport.
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has flags next to players. What about team sport roster listings? How to determine when it could be relevant for a domestic league listing, e.g.
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was written to address the use of flags in military and international sporting bodies. That is what is meant by " representative nationality" at
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Yes, but they still are seen as representatives of their countries and have a representative nationality which we acknowledge in those articles.
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are a bit of a headache to look at because it's so busy. I'll bet if you removed all those flags the chart would be easier to see and read.
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Yes, and you should really read that full discussion. The overly restrictived view of what ârepresentingâ means was a key part of it.
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If language is not going to be added, it would help me, and others who were clearly in the same position as me, to have a link to
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I can't say I'm 100% happy with how this is done, but at least it seems more consistent with how
Knowledge (XXG) at large works.
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To avoid reinventing the wheel, is there a link to a past discussion on "representation" different from a formal national team? â
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Iâm not going to re-prove something that already achieved consensus in the past. Just look at the metioned archived discussions.
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explaining how it differs from legal nationality and also how it differs from being part of a national team at a competition. â
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I disagree that individual projects should have control over the style of draws. It should really be centralised to an extent.
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and why for a while now they have not used flags for
Russian and Belarusian players. We never used simple legal nationalities.
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Exactly. Which is why I said that aspect needs to be discussed within the projects, which I really had no intention of doing.
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here to mean a synonym i.e. "national squad/team" and "representative nationality" being one in the same, as opposed to
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Yes, an asterisk or other symbol to indicate "foreign" if the specific nationality is trivial and otherwise overkill. â
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Itâs the sporting nationality you speak of. And please actually read those discussion instead of just the quote.
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as joining two synonyms, especially when a slash is used for that instead in the previous couple of words.
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So where was the notion of "representative nationality" being separate from a national team agreed upon? â
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Agreed. In the cases where this is true, we should have a note or otherwise explaining it.
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Knowledge (XXG) talk:Categories, lists, and navigation templates#Images in navboxes (again)
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guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of
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1559:: Do you mean I said something similar to yourself, Tvx1, other? Regarding the use of
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Huh? This is absolutely the correct location to discuss suitable wording of the MOS.
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Maybe the MOS needs to change to reflect the established consensus for these sports.
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it's also my personal opinion, just like it was only your personal opinion to add it
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The intent was indeed not for them to be the same. Maybe it should be tweaked then.
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restricted to official national teams. Nothing was tied to specific WikiProjects.
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though the discussion did not significantly address the circumstances of their use
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There are plenty. Turini2 has provided links in the second post of this thread.
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Yes, we use flags for footballers (soccer players) as well in certain contexts.
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Would anyone like to comment about the appropriateness of images in navboxes at
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KevinMCE proposed in 2011 rephrasing the acceptable use section of MOSFLAG to
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I can understand the argument when sources make nationality prominent, e.g.
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A clear consensus that flags may be used to represent sporting nationality,
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Please provide reliable sources that support this novel interpretation. â
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comparisons. Those are actually cruft that noone actually cares about.
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Knowledge (XXG):Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 25 § Mos:Flag
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And thatâs an opinion. I just explained how it actually is useful.
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represent your country as it is an international competition.
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Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style/Icons/Archive 14 § RfC
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Thanks for the responses. I have clarified the guidance. â
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matter of seconds. They are a very useful visual anchor.
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example source for century breaks that doesn't have flags
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the players represent their countries, whilst in the
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Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual_of_Style/Icons/Archive_14
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Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style/Icons/Archive 11
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This has been discussed at length previously - e.g.
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to determine whether its use and function meets the
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75:WikiProjects
65:project page
64:
1579:this revert
1094:instead of
206:WP:PROPOSAL
203:, refer to
917:Nikkimaria
863:Nikkimaria
174:, and the
43:WT:MOSICON
1422:swimming?
1120:Jonesey95
1096:Taiwanese
1077:Jonesey95
931:Jonesey95
827:Jonesey95
782:Davis Cup
778:Ryder Cup
764:Jonesey95
646:Jonesey95
566:Jonesey95
518:Hong Kong
488:Hong Kong
329:Archive 0
1557:Remsense
1532:Remsense
861:Pinging
524:Remsense
454:superman
392:Mos:Flag
375:Mos:Flag
240:Archives
35:Shortcut
1587:Bagumba
1565:Bagumba
1521:Bagumba
1241:Bagumba
1213:Bagumba
1170:snooker
1019:Bagumba
985:Bagumba
948:Bagumba
734:Bagumba
663:Snowman
632:Turini2
610:Turini2
584:Bagumba
356:60 days
1259:rose64
797:rose64
449:wooden
412:Utopes
71:scale.
1517:their
671:part.
660:Giant
477:China
248:Index
63:This
16:<
1591:talk
1569:talk
1513:Tvx1
1491:talk
1382:talk
1346:talk
1338:this
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831:talk
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780:and
768:talk
738:talk
690:Moxy
650:talk
636:talk
614:talk
600:and
588:talk
570:talk
500:talk
424:cont
418:talk
1555:: @
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77::
26:)
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