1531:; here's a summary. When a "term" (word, phrase, abbreviation, symbol, etc.) isn't understood by a significant number of readers, or differently by different readers, then usually, either define it in the text or replace it with a term everyone will understand. If you keep it, wikilink the first occurrence. (The exceptions are in articles that aren't going to be understood by everyone no matter how hard you try ... defining every term would clutter the text.) - Dan
481:. This could be a good thing or a bad thing. If the idea is to put the kinds of arguments that are heard here on an equal footing with the arguments on other pages, that's a good thing, at least when we look at the last several months. If the idea is to create a second page where we argue about embedded lists, leads and layout, that seems like a bad thing. I'm wondering if transclusions from WP:Layout, WP:LEAD and WP:EMBED would be a good idea. - Dan
35:
1367:, both of which are not only beneficial for accessibility, but for internationalization and disambiguation, as there are many abbreviations, such as "St." which in english can mean "street" or "saint", much like "Dr." can be an abbreviation for both "Doctor" and "Drive"; acronym expansion is essential, not only for speech users, but for those for whom english is not their first language and who may be confused by the use of an acronym.
577:, Quiddity. The reason POLICY requires the cat is that otherwise, 2 guys could get together and label a page a guideline, and no one would know about it. When pages are added to a policy or guidelines cat, they get announced by VeblenBot at WP:VPP (or at WT:MOS and WT:MOSCO, in the case of style guidelines). - Dan
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attribute, especially, as i have pointed out above, so that latinisms such as "ibid" can be glossed into english for those unfamiliar with latinisms; this is particularly important for those who have to use the english version of a wikipedia article because one does not exist in their primary natural
624:
The "subcat guideline|style guideline" template automatically added the style cat, but the "style-guideline" template (which this page uses) didn't. I've checked WhatLinksHere, and I think we're good now; I'm going partly by memory and partly by checking pages, but I think all the pages that use the
239:
was conducted to get a sense of community opinion, and most designs have been modified to reflect the bulk of community desires. The number of proposed designs has also been reduced, and each design is now accompanied with a screen shot. Please help establish consensus, and move this proposal to the
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breaks the rule about separating list items by blank lines in the section 'However, it can be appropriate to use a list style when the items in list are "children" of the paragraphs that precede them. ' I've been removing line breaks from such lists when I've found them, but I'm not sure that making
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I did not notice anything unusual about figure 11. I use LaTeX to read math equations so I was able to read them (with difficulty, as there are so many symbols to digest). The graphics are described adequately and I can ima gine how they'd look (though I'd prefer to have some way of drawing them on
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Ah, whoops, I assumed that the category was embedded in the template (like all the talkpage banners, and mbox banners, etc). Which surely should be the case, so that there aren't pages tagged with one but not the other? I'm not a template expert though, so I'm not sure what other ramifications that
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version above 6.0. While this is wordy, it *is* possible to tell what the fracction is and there's no better way besides putting it into words ("three and three eights"), although that's not a good option for other reasons. The "+" in the "display: none" class will make it read as "3+3/8" in older
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Knowledge (XXG) should have as many normal accessibility features as possible, but let's remember that it isn't an
English language course or specifically a learner's encyclopedia. Perhaps easily-confused abbreviations and jargon could be marked up, although I would guess that the nature of āSt
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I like mathematics, but geometry was never my strong suit because I couldn't see the diagrams. I understood the intro of the article but got lost around the "Lie sphere geometry" section. To be honest it would help if I could make a tactile copy of the diagrams, but that's not possible over the
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I haven't thought this through, and I'm sleepy, so this may suck. Except for a little overlapping at WP:MOS, don't we usually operate under the principle that it's best if guidelines are on the page you expect them to be? When people look at all, they look for information on embedded lists at
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be adapted to conform to these guidelines? There will also be issues with page size in articles with many non-English terms. How strictly should the guidelines be enforced? And there is one part I don't understand: how would the title attribute help users who don't have
English as their first
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In the section "Resizing and inversion", the use of semi-colons to separate sections causes a definition list to be created in the HTML, and JAWS reads it like so: "definition list of 1 items, Shrinking one given circle to a point, list end". I would prefer it if subheadings were
789:. My impression is that the {{frac|p|q}} approach is better for people with poor but not "disabled" eyesight, like me, but is a nightmare for those who are actually or virtually blind and have to use screen-readers, as e.g. {{frac|3|3|8}} generates the following (X)HTML:
625:"style-guideline" template now also have the style cat, and I changed the other templates (style-guidelines, style guideline, etc.) a while ago; "style-guideline" and "subcat guideline|style guideline" are the only two used now on style guidelines pages, I think. - Dan
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suggested that I ask for help here on whether the article is accessible, especially with screen readers. In particular, Figure 11 might cause a glitch? Overall the article is somewhat technical, with several images and equations. Thanks muchly for all your help!Ā :)
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Mark's
Cathedralā and āPortage Ave at Main Stā are readily apparent without assistance. I don't think common English terms such as āetc.ā, āe.g.ā, āi.e.ā, āibid.ā, etc. should be marked up, just as a normal printed publication doesn't put these into a glossary. It
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At the moment, the "no blank lines between items" is going into several guidelines. In general, duplication is bad (because then it has to be kept synchronized), but I think this particular issue now makes an appearance at MOS, EL, LIST, ACCESS, and maybe CITE.
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No response, so I take it people are happy. I think the current version does a reasonable job of highlighting the connection between accessibility issues and other style guidelines, and I don't have a problem with this being a style guideline. - Dan
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I want to echo WhatamI's comment that duplication is bad. If there is a well developed discussion of a topic in the "wrong" article then the "right" article should link to that discussion. (Alternatively, you can do something like this:
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screen readers, which is not perfect but is also accessible. For fractions like 2/3, the template will read "2/3" which is OK. The other markup doesn't affect JAWS. I'm not sure how the template would read in a
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I'm not sure about that reasoning, Dank55; this bot business is entirely new, and I had never heard of the cat until this week. I'm not sure that is how guideline pages have been decided in the past.
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because the CSS and JavaScript controlling them is imbedded in the page, so screen readers will follow the browser and will show the new text when the hide button is pressed. They worked fine in
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reads the first image as "Apollonius_PPP_black.svg/100px-Apollonius_PPP_black.svg". A caption of "PPP example", or even just "PPP", since the column header is "example", would work fine.
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of the value, and absolute gobbledygook when spoken. Is there a good solution both for people with poor but not "disabled" eyesight and for those who are functionally blind? --
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User:Butwhatdoiknow seems to be experimenting with transcluded sections at this very moment. I really like the non-fragmentation of transcluding, as long as enough people
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language -- how is someone who speaks cantonese and mandarin primarily, but who has a reading comprehension of english, supposed to make sense of a latinism? how many
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123:, etc. Since we want to recommend here that people not put blank lines between bullet items in article space, wouldn't it make more sense to have this advice in
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the responsibility of the reader of any reference to be able to read the language, if necessary with the help of their own dictionary (or even some sort of š).
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remember, natural language declarations not only assist those using speech output, but those using high levels of magnification and refreshable braille displays
455:, the template for Line 1 of the Monterrey Metro? Are ether any examples of good practice for such templates? Or accessible alterntaives to sit alongside them?
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the "American Dental
Association" -- what happens when one discusses the ADA's ADA policies with regards treatment of patients with transmissionable diseases.
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provides a means of disambiguation for identical acronyms that expand into different phrases, such as "ADA", which can mean "Americans With
Disabilities Act"
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5.1 released in 2003, and would probably work in earlier versions, so collapsable sections aren't much of an issue at all with widely-used screen readers.
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And images should always have caption. JAWS reads one of the images in
Decipherment of rongorongo as "graphic RR_006.gif/10px-RR_006" which isn't helpful.
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I don't know, but it's late and I'm not thinking straight. How about using image maps? By default screen readers use only the alt tag to describe images.
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currently. Perhaps once the experiment is further along, the talkpages could all be redirected to a central location or two, to prevent fragmentation of
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I'm glad it's useful. I had hoped that Jaws users could evaluate it before adding it anywhereāthanks. This should probably be added to topical help at
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I think this needs more discussion, and that's why I copied the text to the talk page rather than to the guideline page. How should the
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When there are
English pronunciations of placenames or proper names, then the English version of that word or placename should be used:
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It has claimed to be a guideline at the top of the page, but it wasn't a guideline until this month, when it got the guideline cat, per
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be the basis upon which standards is set; rather, since it is possible to suppress natural language switching or exposition of
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Do we have a hard & final word as to whether collapsible sections cause problems with readers for sight impaired folks..?
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Thanks, that's a useful find. The small size of the IPA file means that it will also work on old computers with no problems.
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syntax, which is purely explanatory. since wikimedia frowns on the use of actual HTML/XHTML code, there needs to be another
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English is not the primary, secondary or tertiary language of a large numbers of users of thte
English version of wikipedia;
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I can work on the colors. As for the image captions, what do you do about inline images which do not have visible captions?
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be not only marked as belonging to a different natural language than the base natural language declared for the page, but
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In the table listing the examples, it would help if the images on the right had a caption. At the moment my screen reader
1137:) it is, of course, most appropriate to use the English equivalent in an article whose base natural language is English.
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Found a possibly useful link, with advice on reading IPA or other
Unicode characters in Jaws, by editing an .sbl file.
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OK, I'll add it there. As for
Knowledge (XXG) guides for readers using screen readers, I know of the incomplete
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Is there an accessibility or screen-reader help page aimed at Knowledge (XXG) readers, as opposed to editors?
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english speakers can provide the meaning of terms such as: "ibid", "op. cit.", "i.e.", or "e.g."? moreover,
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but nothing has been done. I view this as a serious failing; can someone assist in finding a remedy, please?
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not all capable of reading/understanding English will be congnizant of may foreign terms' meanings; and
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if there is a word or idiom absorbed into English intact from its language of origin, such as
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be marked as lang="es"; Likewise, whenever a placename has an English equivalent (Vienna for
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1) i am highly cognizant that wikimedia (at least, as implemented here) does not support
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declaration, because in English, "France" is pronounced differently than it is in French;
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Unless its changed recently, WikiMedia (at least, as implemented here) does not support
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if entered directly as non-latinate glyphs, then the word should be marked up using the
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Joe Clark discusses colour blindness issues at length in his book, available online.
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Accessibility guidelines suggest not relying on colour alone to convey information.
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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widely used "NoScript" extension, I find that the "collapsible" sections on
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Yes, I would like to know this as well since I use them on my userpage...
862:. In summary, it's not perfect but it's the best that could be done until
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In modern screen readers, no. They aren't as likely to cause problems as
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That's very helpful information. Let's add it to the guideline page.
853:, reads as "3 superscript 3 end superscript slash 8", on any modern
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fake bulleted lists is the best way to indent paragraphs. In short,
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if, however, one is referring to an historical personage, such as
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the HiddenStructure hack as an alternative for parser functions
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collapsible sections and accessibility for sight impaired folks
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Someone might want to look at that, from an accessibility PoV.
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which is not the value of the fraction but (X)HTML code for a
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4) how contextual markup is exposed to the individual user
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he raised the issue on MediaWiki talk:Common.js a year ago
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for example, the word "France" would not be spanned by a
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3) there is also a need for wikimedia to accomodate the
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Getting JAWS 6.1 to recognize "exotic" Unicode symbols
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http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Lead_section_TT_text
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can read mixed fractions properly (no pun intended).
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are already collapsed with no option to expand them.
1404:the language-link prefix, as is generated by the
1396:which would simply encase the word in a virtual
896:Using Firefox 3 with Javascript disabled by the
1554:Plain language markup can be accomplished with
1219:a word comprised of non-latinate glyphs should
1035:Internet ... yet. A couple of specific points:
592:change would create, with Veblenbot et al. --
1082:An Argument for a Consistent & Realistic
1007:I've been working on a geometry article, the
541:Knowledge (XXG):Accessibility TT lead section
289:Nice one! I've noted it, with due credit, on
235:in the proposed redesign of the main page. A
8:
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1189:, such as e.g.; i.e.; ca.; fl.; etc. should
511:It's been classified as a guideline since
441:Template for Line 1 of the Monterrey Metro
295:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Phonetics
1384:2) there needs to be a supplement to the
890:an issue at Knowledge (XXG) talk:NavFrame
479:Category:Knowledge (XXG) style guidelines
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802:<span class="db-dGVtcGxhdGUtZg": -->
787:accessible representation of fractions
659:? Also, what about color blindness?
48:Do not edit the contents of this page.
421:Template talk:Unsigned#Text too small
415:Template 'Unsigned' - text too small.
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545:Knowledge (XXG):Lead section TT text
291:Talk:International Phonetic Alphabet
18:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style
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655:How does a screen reader deal with
131:if we think that's helpful. - Dan
110:Let me just throw a suggestion out
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338:Knowledge (XXG):IPA for English
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391:Knowledge (XXG) guide for JAWS
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1003:Help with a geometry article?
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148:Knowledge (XXG):Embedded list
141:02:44, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
433:Andy Mabbett's contributions
307:Andy Mabbett's contributions
254:Andy Mabbett's contributions
155:needs some cleanup as well.
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1320:. Note the existence of
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537:watchlist the new pages
219:2008 main page redesign
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1334:(User:Pigsonthewing);
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905:Infobox Ship Begin/doc
839:The example you give,
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1009:Problem of Apollonius
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240:next stage of voting.
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429:Talk to Andy Mabbett
303:Talk to Andy Mabbett
250:Talk to Andy Mabbett
1394:{{fr|le mot juste}}
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1594:2008-10-14Ā 18:49Ā z
1399:... </span: -->
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1207:etc.</abbr: -->
694:2008-09-12Ā 21:18Ā z
342:Help:Pronunciation
276:2008-09-07Ā 20:55Ā z
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22:Accessibility
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1574:le mot juste
1561:le mot juste
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1537:send/receive
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1340:Andy's edits
1332:Andy Mabbett
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1199:ABBR element
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1092:Copied from
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924:Andy Mabbett
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803:<sup: -->
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457:Andy Mabbett
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425:Andy Mabbett
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237:brief survey
230:
223:Copied from
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178:WhatamIdoing
156:
137:send/receive
113:
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1336:Andy's talk
1273:L'Aquatique
1152:realpolitik
961:L'Aquatique
928:Andy's talk
800:3<s: -->
549:discussions
461:Andy's talk
419:Please see
356:āPreceding
262:IPA in Jaws
40:This is an
1292:language?
1265:Shana tova
1239:convention
1148:sang froid
102:ArchiveĀ 10
1529:WP:JARGON
1527:See also
1237:lang="xx"
1187:Latinisms
1120:lang="fr"
888:I raised
777:Fractions
575:WP:POLICY
513:July 2006
473:Style cat
450:MtyMetro1
121:WP:Layout
94:ArchiveĀ 7
89:ArchiveĀ 6
83:ArchiveĀ 5
77:ArchiveĀ 4
72:ArchiveĀ 3
64:ArchiveĀ 1
1462:must not
1156:zeigeist
947:Ling.Nut
783:WP:CHESS
594:Quiddity
553:Quiddity
551:.Ā :) --
517:Quiddity
515:...? --
370:contribs
358:unsigned
129:WP:EMBED
20: |
1588:Michael
1499:oedipus
1408:syntax.
1402:without
1365:acronym
1249:oedipus
1185:Use of
1160:gestalt
1059:paper).
826:Philcha
688:Michael
663:Georgia
611:Georgia
340:(which
270:Michael
43:archive
1570:French
1568:(e.g.
1558:(e.g.
1533:Dank55
1432:native
1295:Graham
1222:either
1168:SHOULD
1164:SHOULD
1131:SHOULD
1100:Graham
1067:Graham
1022:Willow
986:Graham
916:AlexSm
869:Graham
756:Graham
706:Graham
651:A test
627:Dank55
579:Dank55
499:Dank55
483:Dank55
396:Graham
362:Mzajac
319:Graham
225:WP:VPT
158:Graham
146:Well,
133:Dank55
1467:title
1436:title
1427:title
1195:Latin
1172:title
1084:@lang
1053:used.
1017:Sandy
729:kwami
661:Sandy
609:Sandy
16:<
1503:talk
1478:need
1390:lang
1361:abbr
1325:lang
1318:abbr
1268:!--
1253:talk
1230:lang
1225:be:
1212:e.g.
1135:Wein
1043:JAWS
1026:talk
1015:and
981:JAWS
914:and
898:very
855:JAWS
830:talk
733:talk
668:Talk
616:Talk
598:talk
557:talk
543:and
521:talk
366:talk
293:and
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182:talk
1576:).
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1363:or
1191:NOT
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