Knowledge (XXG)

talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Archive 7 - Knowledge (XXG)

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548:ā€ fashion), as I said stated above, I believe you have the best of intentions here. Iā€™m not questioning your good faith. I simply think you have an extreme personal bias on this issue. As a result of this apparent bias, I find no validity of your arguments, which are fallacious, specious and illogical. Given that no one else is agreeing with you on this matter, that would normally be a clue for most people that you just *might* be wrong. Yet, somehow, that possibility doesnā€™t seem to have dawned on you. 35: 1276: 713: 986:. (I would suggest that "sparingly" is purposefully ambiguous - partly because instruction creep should be avoided - but mostly because there are some instances where an embedded animation is wanted, by the vast majority of editors/readers.) Please make it clear in your future discussions of this topic, that you are talking about the images such as those found at 484:
particular animation has biased him enough that he is mentally seized upon that issue to help lend credibility and nobility to his cause. But his arguments simply arenā€™t supported by the facts. I donā€™t think Philcha has confused any issues; he is merely stating the facts and drawing logical conclusions. Andyā€™s arguments just donā€™t make sense. Sorry.
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are not "relevant" to Knowledge (XXG). I consider that to be a harmful position, but accept that there is no clear written policy (leastwise, none that I can find) mandating or recommending that those industry-standard guidelines should be followed, or to which level. Practical experience shows that
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you cite a WCAG guideline on avoiding flickering animations until browsers provide an option to block or freeze animations - although this guideline apparently does not define threshold levels for animations that are likely to cause trouble. In the meantime most Windows browsers freeze animations if
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A few editors have suggested potential technical solutions, such as creating a userpreference that stopped animations from running by default, for the benefit of people such as yourself who find them distracting, and for the epileptic users you so tirelessly campaign on behalf of. I would recommend
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page that allegedly defines the rate and intensity of flickering likely to provoke an epileptic seizure. It might be sensible to define a policy or procedure that allows removal of images that are in that range. However reviews of such images would have to be conducted in a totally objective manner
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Knowledge (XXG) has gotten along just fine with our animations and Iā€™m not aware that any epileptic anywhere has had a problem with them. There are CSS style sheets to load into browsers to block GIF animations and users who are extraordinarily sensitive to animations can avail themselves of these
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As I mentioned on WT:drop the stick, the original animation was one of wildly exaggerated violence juxtaposed against the relatively benign reality of edit conflict. ā€œErrorā€: the basis of all humor. It was a humorous sight gag that was obviously added to help relieve tension and defuse conflict,
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I wonder if there has been one sufferer of epilepsy who has ever come to Knowledge (XXG) to complain about any of our animations. Just pardon me all over the place for thinking this, but whereas Andy Mabbett may have the best intentions of epileptics at heart, I think his personal dislike of one
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I think all involved would agree that putting aside the merits and drawbacks of moving images and looking simply at the image in question... it's not a great image. It's grainy, the animation is poor, and it looks to be low res. Instead of repeatedly edit warring to remove it, why don't just we
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the user hits the ESC key and most offer an option to block images altogether; I expect non-Windows browsers offer similar facilites. I'm sure users prone to epilepsy already know and use these facilities, otherwise they'd have a seizure at every page that shows a jiggling banner ad.
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I donā€™t question your right to express your beliefs here so I would appreciate it if you afforded me the same courtesy and didnā€™t presume to tell how I may think and where I may express my views. And, Earth calling Pigsonthewing: your personal beliefs are not the only ones on this
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I believe you're reading too much into my words. I have found that throughout this "discussion" you have been overly confrontational, I worry about what it could to do to the reputation of this WikiProject if one of its members is acting in such a way to uninvolved users.
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These multi-level nested lists tend to be busy and sloppy looking, and hard to read, but I don't know if there's a better alternative. They definitely could use some graphic help, but just enough to give the reader some milestones, because too much will increase the
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Judging from the tone and tenor of your above responseā€”and your responses to every single other editor who has dared to disagree with youā€”I believe you A) are absolutely convinced there can be no chance that you are wrong on this, and B) are taking this
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is of poor quality, jerky and does flicker a bit - annoying cycles indefinitely although one cycle is enough to make the point. However the flickering is nowhere near as rapid or intense as the level at which UK TV companies issue epilepsy alerts before
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It seems you donā€™t like that *inconvenient truth* and havenā€™t come to grips with the reality that the vast majority of editors greatly appreciate the many animations we have on Knowledge (XXG). Further, you have failed to produce evidence that a
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After these few changes the list looks so much more clearer (I honestly donā€™t know why I didnā€™t think of some of these changes until now and others when you mentioned them). I personally donā€™t think that there is a need for graphics now, do
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Thanks, L'Aquatique; that's fine by me. I think that image should also replace the disputed image, on "Knowledge (XXG)-space" pages, and people who have the latter in their user space should be asked to consider dropping it.
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to follow said policy, the policy shouldā€”by defaultā€”be followed(?). Uhmmmā€¦ (*sound of strumming on the keyboard as I deeply ponder this one*)ā€¦ No. By that logic, I could state ā€œin the absence of any consensus whatsoever
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The AG/Army/Corps/Division and brigade titles are now all in bold, the commanding officers have been returned to regular text and any additional information has been moved to a new footnote section at the bottom of the
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However the commanding officers, especially those without links, do become somewhat blurred within the text. As a test I did change the commanding officers so they to were bold however it didnā€™t seem to help
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above. Andy: Please stop removing these images piecemeal, and claiming/implying that it is based on a recommendation that we are following. If you want the wording of the guideline changed, discuss it an
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and have found that it is hard to distinguish who the commanding officer of division/Corps etc is. Due to this I have made their rank and names in bold ā€“ from a MOS point of view is this acceptable?
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For Operation Epsom, try unit names in bold and commanders in regularā€”this may still provide differentiation, but may seem more natural. Abbreviating the commanders' ranks may reduce clutter a bit.
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There are CSS style sheets to load into browsers to block GIF animations and users who are extraordinarily sensitive to animations canā€”and without a doubt doā€”avail themselves of these things.
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with epilepsy has ever complained about Knowledge (XXG)ā€™s animations and stated that there are no suitable ways for such sufferers to block them. Yet here you are, hammering away on this.
263: 93: 88: 76: 71: 63: 560:) Philcha and I simply disagree with your conclusions and logic. Lighten up and please stop acting like a censor who has the unilateral power to delete animations from Knowledge (XXG). 1412:
to ban tendentious editors for life, we should assume itā€™s OK to just go ahead and ban them for life.ā€ You get an ā€œAā€ for effort. Fortunately, Knowledge (XXG) doesnā€™t work that way.
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I agree that the image should be replaced on other essays (it's found on quite a few), but I would strongly urge you to let it end there. You may, if you feel it necessary, leave a
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have all standardized upon 1024Ā Ć—Ā 768 as the minimum assumed monitor resolution below which scrolling is required. That resolution is pretty much the Web standard now.
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Your personal, fallacious beliefs about what you imagine are my motivations are not relevant to this matter; and your restatement of them here is a further breach of
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Moving images are a cause of problems for people with a variety of conditions, such as epilepsy, and reading disabilities, and are distracting to many more.
1201:. Your equation of WCAG solely with animated images strongly suggests a lack of understanding of accessibility in general and of my proposal in particular. 1029:. Personally I think it looks ok and if it seemed ok with the wider community I was thinking of doing it myself to some order of battles I have worked on. 1425: 1374: 941: 897: 875: 814: 297: 279: 1110:
Any further suggestions on what could be done to make the article more accessible to the general reader? Or any comments on the changes made thus far?--
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note informing them of the situation, but I will be exceedingly... shall we say, disappointed? If you bully or harass them in any way. Are we clear?
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How essential is support for ~640x480 window size (or basically anything smaller then 800x600) for accessibility reasons? This issue has come up in
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All right, all right. Please, you guys, let's try to get along here. Since compromise is my word of the day, let's try to find a compromise here.
454:" from the RNIB page you cite. You appear to believe, mistakenly, that epilepsy concerns are the only accessibility issues with animated images. 406:
Some animations are very useful ways to illustrate processes, and the good ones are about as smooth as movies or TV. There's a good example at
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My personal beliefs are neither fallacious nor imagined. Fortunately, Knowledge (XXG) provides an abundant evidence trail (cited below) and
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There are probably too many navboxes, and I would prefer it if they could be hidden. The equilibrium symbols should be generated with
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The way orders of battle are laid out they are rather text heavy and can be hard sometimes to see where the next division etc start.
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In Market Garden, I would consider just having the insignia for top-level armies and corps, but not for every single bullet point.
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Your personal, fallacious beliefs are not relevant to this matter; and your statement of them here is a further breach of WP:AGF.
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as to what this is about. ā€œAssume good faithā€ ā‰  ā€œsuspend common sense.ā€ You started out by deleting an animation from an essay (
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I have adjusted the British half of the article for now, I will use that as a sandbox so to speak before I edit the German half.
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Does anyone have comments, and would people support such a move, and be willing to assist me in taking it forward?
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From my POV, it's OK ... the tables are easy to skip and I can get to the main text in three keystrokes with JAWS.
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it is sometimes necessary to work around certain poorly-worded or obsoleted parts, hence the (draft) WCAG 2.0 and
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on this page. Yet you persist at this. Why? Note that many of our self-running, looping animations have achieved
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Concern over the welfare of epileptics is a red herring. Sufferers of epilepsy can take care of themselves.
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Perhaps. But that might explain why the factual basis for your arguments crumbles under scrutiny.
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This article has three infoboxes, templates in the lead: I'm unsure if this placement complies.
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I encourage other editors to review the goings on in that link, and consider the ramifications.
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An editor has added several divisional/Corps symbols to the following order of battle article:
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too personally, and C) every disagreement is an excuse to pull any stunt to win (witness
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It is you who appears to be confusing issues. Perhaps because you missed that I quoted "
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It's clear from recent comments (see above) that some editors do not believe that the
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Wikipedia_talk:Drop_the_stick_and_back_slowly_away_from_the_horse_carcass#Moving_image
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Wikipedia_talk:Drop_the_stick_and_back_slowly_away_from_the_horse_carcass#Moving_image
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Also any hints etc on how to make the article more accessible to the average reader?
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No such thing has happened, because you keep refuting straw-men, not my arguments.
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Knowledge (XXG):Featured pictures/Engineering and technology/Machinery#Animations
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these animations, should be considered from all angles before changes are made.
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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Until user agents allow users to freeze moving content, avoid movement in pages
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I'm not in the least clear why you adopt such an unwarranted, hostile tone,.
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That is just so absurd. Absolutely no one has been agreeing with you; not
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Knowledge (XXG):Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass
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pursuing those strategies instead, perhaps via the Technical Pump. --
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There's quite strident opposition to the removal of a moving image at
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Thank you, Graham87. If you have a moment, can you also comment on
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Notwithstanding your attempt to hide behind the apron strings of
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The animation should also come to a rest after 3 to 5 cycles
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None that I know of. The following news sites for instance:
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When there is nothing left to beat, consider that there
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Knowledge (XXG) talk:Accessibility/Archive 1#Timelines?
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Sorry for all the questions and thanks for the help.--
210:? I have several concerns there, hard to summarize. 130: 421:
At another point in that discussion someone cited an
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Knowledge (XXG) talk:2008 main page redesign proposal
862:. I think your still image conveys the same effect. 321:The inaccessibility of timelines was discussed at 375:Knowledge (XXG) does not consider to be relevant 1238:and cited WCAG as the justification for doing so 1255: 1035:On the same subject, I completed the following 426:based on current medical criteria supported by 1350:You should consider what the message point of 745:it? There's a whole bunch of static images in 303:seems to have multiple accesibility issues... 248:Fixed your redlink there, hope ya don't mind. 8: 1327: 1175:things if need be. Please drop this Andy. 977:Please see the previous conversation, at 601:about what you imagine are my mtoivations 1027:Operation Market Garden order of battle 1361:ā€”many timesā€”what your intentions are. 1263:states with priority 2 that we should 396:I think you're confusing some issues: 48:Do not edit the contents of this page. 1336:status and there are galleries, like 7: 1138:Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 992:Moon#Orbit and relationship to Earth 18:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style 1229:editors can make up their own minds 1166:No one else here seems to have the 603:are not relevant to this matter... 373:At which I've just been told that " 978: 28: 860:collaborative writing environment 298:Timeline of MacBook Family Models 290:Timeline of MacBook Family Models 1168:distaste you have for animations 801:, Andy, happy and end all this? 33: 1295: 1037:Operation Epsom order of battle 963: 922: 847: 762: 261: 1284: 952: 911: 839: 754: 747:Commons:Category:Nuclear tests 595:Clarification: Your personal, 253: 1: 1279:Please, think of the horsies 558:your baseless ANI against me. 546:if itā€™s blue, it must be true 1426:05:03, 3 November 2008 (UTC) 1375:23:51, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 1298:02:27, 3 November 2008 (UTC) 1285: 1214:21:42, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 1189:20:44, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 1161:20:36, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 1120:13:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC) 1055:17:05, 27 October 2008 (UTC) 1016:22:57, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 966:23:45, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 953: 942:23:27, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 925:21:34, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 912: 898:20:20, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 876:02:42, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 850:01:51, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 840: 815:01:29, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 765:01:26, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 755: 749:that would do just as well. 695:01:10, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 654:00:42, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 616:00:32, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 574:23:39, 1 November 2008 (UTC) 517:23:01, 1 November 2008 (UTC) 498:22:38, 1 November 2008 (UTC) 467:22:16, 1 November 2008 (UTC) 440:14:51, 1 November 2008 (UTC) 390:13:05, 1 November 2008 (UTC) 368:22:44, 25 October 2008 (UTC) 341:08:58, 26 October 2008 (UTC) 316:17:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC) 280:05:04, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 264:01:34, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 254: 244:08:43, 26 October 2008 (UTC) 223:17:00, 25 October 2008 (UTC) 201:16:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC) 184:03:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC) 159:00:03, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 124:08:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC) 1314:the animation on this essay 1442: 1326:on WT:Drop the stick, nor 797:Splendid. Would that make 208:Acid dissociation constant 858:which often occurs in a 400:Image:Bomba atomowa.gif 347:Animated image in essay 1389:As to your statement ( 1300: 1269: 1205:(User:Pigsonthewing); 1152:(User:Pigsonthewing); 933:(User:Pigsonthewing); 889:(User:Pigsonthewing); 721: 686:(User:Pigsonthewing); 607:(User:Pigsonthewing); 508:(User:Pigsonthewing); 458:(User:Pigsonthewing); 381:(User:Pigsonthewing); 359:(User:Pigsonthewing); 327:EasyTimeline extension 307:(User:Pigsonthewing); 268:Nope, not at all.Ā :-) 1308:Further, you stated ( 1278: 715: 538:that are meritorious. 413:In the discussion at 46:of past discussions. 1312:) that you believed 834:How about this one? 1076:Looks good so far. 984:WT:Image use policy 329:for accessibility. 1301: 1261:WCAG guideline 7.3 1086:2008-10-27Ā 18:27Ā z 722: 408:Four-stroke engine 1346:single individual 1341:showing them off. 1087: 996:Horse gait#Gallop 718:are other options 104: 103: 58: 57: 52:current talk page 1433: 1424: 1373: 1333:Featured Picture 1319:ā€œharmful image.ā€ 1296: 1293: 1292: 1187: 1085: 1021:Order of Battles 964: 961: 960: 923: 920: 919: 874: 848: 845: 844: 813: 763: 760: 759: 652: 572: 496: 338: 302: 296: 277: 262: 259: 258: 241: 215: 198: 176: 157: 85: 60: 59: 37: 36: 30: 1441: 1440: 1436: 1435: 1434: 1432: 1431: 1430: 1413: 1399:patently absurd 1362: 1176: 1130: 1023: 863: 802: 641: 561: 485: 349: 336: 300: 294: 292: 275: 239: 213: 196: 174: 169: 166:Operation Epsom 146: 109: 81: 34: 26: 25: 24: 12: 11: 5: 1439: 1437: 1429: 1428: 1383: 1382: 1381: 1380: 1379: 1378: 1273: 1272: 1271: 1270: 1250: 1249: 1248: 1247: 1246: 1245: 1240:. You stated ( 1219: 1218: 1217: 1216: 1192: 1191: 1129: 1126: 1125: 1124: 1123: 1122: 1108: 1104: 1100: 1096: 1090: 1089: 1073: 1072: 1068: 1067: 1063: 1062: 1022: 1019: 979:#Moving images 975: 974: 973: 972: 971: 970: 969: 968: 881: 880: 879: 878: 832: 831: 830: 829: 828: 827: 826: 825: 824: 823: 822: 821: 820: 819: 818: 817: 780: 779: 778: 777: 776: 775: 774: 773: 772: 771: 770: 769: 768: 767: 738: 710: 709: 708: 707: 706: 705: 704: 703: 702: 701: 700: 699: 698: 697: 667: 666: 665: 664: 663: 662: 661: 660: 659: 658: 657: 656: 627: 626: 625: 624: 623: 622: 621: 620: 619: 618: 584: 583: 582: 581: 580: 579: 578: 577: 524: 523: 522: 521: 520: 519: 501: 500: 472: 471: 470: 469: 445: 444: 443: 442: 419: 411: 404: 393: 392: 348: 345: 344: 343: 291: 288: 287: 286: 285: 284: 283: 282: 204: 203: 168: 163: 162: 161: 108: 105: 102: 101: 96: 91: 86: 79: 74: 69: 66: 56: 55: 38: 27: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 1438: 1427: 1422: 1418: 1417: 1411: 1406: 1405: 1400: 1396: 1392: 1388: 1385: 1384: 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Index

Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style
Accessibility
archive
current talk page
ArchiveĀ 1
ArchiveĀ 5
ArchiveĀ 6
ArchiveĀ 7
ArchiveĀ 8
ArchiveĀ 9
ArchiveĀ 10
Knowledge (XXG) talk:2008 main page redesign proposal
Nil Einne
talk
08:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
CNN
MSNBC
ABC
CBS
Greg L
talk
00:03, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Operation Epsom
SandyGeorgia
Talk
03:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Graham
87
16:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Acid dissociation constant

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