905:
without outwardly expressing their gender identity even once. In contrast, there are a number of heterosexual men, who view themselves as men, and will dress in female clothing, strictly for sexual gratification or for entertainment value. The act of cross-dressing then, still falls under the scope of transgender study, even though they do not have a female identity. If they do not actually understand themselves to be female with the body of a genetic male, then they are not cross-dressing because they actually identify or understand themselves to be the opposite sex. Gender
Identity is a constant/permanent interpretation/perception of one's self as male or female. If Eddie Izzard views himself as a woman in a man's body, then his cross-dressing would be an outward expression of his identity as a woman. However, if he views himself as a man, who happens to wear women's clothing and is comfortable having a male identity or believing himself to be a "man", then his transgenderism would be a reflection of something else. Either way, he would still fall under the scope of the project, but I think people are trying to resolve whether he actually identifies himself as a man or a woman. Its one of those fine lines. Cross-dressing is an aspect of being transgender, but not all cross-dressers are necessarily transgender. I think the project would only exclude someone who would only cross-dress for entertainment value (ex:
556:. This titling of articles should really be left to a page by page discussion not a blanket policy established by a cadre of editors in a wikiproject. FYI I am gay and proud of it, so there's no hate mongering going on here. I think the benefits of the "Murder of..." titling outway any negatives. First of all, articles titled after victims tend to turn into biographies which is not acceptable for an encyclopedia or by wikipedia's guidelines regarding victims which says, "Victims of high-profile crimes do not automatically qualify as notable enough to have a stand-alone article solely based on their status as victims. Notability with regards to this is defined as satisfying some other aspect of the notability of persons guideline that does not relate to the crime in question. As such, a victim of a crime should normally only be the subject of an article where an article that satisfied notability criteria existed, or could have properly been created prior to the crime's commission. Thus, attempts at inclusion prompted by appearance in the press should not be excluded if notability can be otherwise asserted." Second, articles entitled after victims tends to attract a lot of personal information about the victim's personal life which can be tasteless, disrespectful, and an invasion of the privacy of the victim and their family. Third, articles entitled after victims can tend to memorialize the person and
1821:
removing information only, or add a single paragraph that puts undue weight on an issue. This project sees a lot of this kind of editing in quite a few articles. This wouldn't happen as much if the sourcing were better. True collaboration means all editors involved have the article's best interest in mind. Not only do they remove poorly sourced information, but they look for better sources and do their damnedest to add to it before removing it completely. They work to make it a fuller article that is the best it can be. I cannot characterize your actions or Benji's in this AfD, and have no interest in becoming involved in it right now. However, I think the material intended for this list should exist, and I hope it gets as much assistance as possible. It deserves true collaboration. --
1806:
take it to AN/I nobody was interested in your slurs, when you tried it at the article nobody was interested. All of my changes are documented on the talkpage and me and a number of other good faith editors have just got on with it. I'm actually a bisexual male but when I edit here I check that in at the door and I work as an NPOV editor - you might want to give it a try. In addition, you give this project a bad name because your constant attempts to paint people at homophobes and "haters" gives the impression that this is some sort of activist group rather than a wikiproject trying to product quality articles. --
3140:. Whoever or whatever it is, they are said to be secretly controlling or protecting something: Hollywood, Banks, the Eastern Establishment, what we read and watch, schools, the Press, protecting and promoting other members, whatever. Or maybe even influencing or controlling the whole world. Regardless of the target group, this is discrimination against any group the discriminators don't like for ethnic, religious, cultural, racial, economic, or other reasons. Gays are still mostly a despised minority in much of mainstream America and just don't have that kind of power. Not yet, anyway :-) See
1110:
outsiderish. Izzard is certainly within the transgender spectrum and one of the more well-known openly transgender people in the world in the cross-dressing spectrum. Just as there are more questions than answers as to why each subset of the communities are the way they are there are still plenty of questions as to what makes cross-dressers tick. In addition all our communities face isolation and traditional forms of descrimination which often leads individuals on a bumpy path to self-actualization. Crossdressing is a part of the history and culture of LGBT communities.
111:
2136:. I think by making a big deal out of one phenomenon, but ignoring its counterpart, this imputes that only LGBT people have sexual orientations, and that people without sexual orientations are "normal". Of course, it doesn't do this explicitly, only implicitly. Since Proposition 8 was about ensuring that opposite-sex marriage would get a monopoly on marriage, I think opposite-sex marriage is just as topical as same-sex marriage. Particularly since 30 of the 50 states have laws guaranteeing the heterosexuality of marriage.--
31:
1029:"transgender" to describe themselves, but they none the less can be labeled as such. I use the word transgender to describe myself, but I've never used the word transsexual, even though by clinical definition the label fits, regardless of my surgical status. Izzard may never identify as transgender, but as a open transvestite, he still falls within the scope. Being a transvestite is an aspect of his
1784:
cooperative consensus - rather than what drove me away - I think a meaningful list article could emerge. I simply walked away as it felt like a pack of wolves snipping at my ankles - some of these same folks have been targeting articles about murdered LGBT people in various ways. Very alarming and distasteful - technically allowed but distasteful editing - I guess that's our special curse.
3238:
2234:
However, I note that in the WP-page about that, it says "Coatrack articles can be created purposefully to promote a particular bias" -- in this case, the coatrack article would be created purposefully to counteract a particular bias. I suppose if we wanted to keep that content in the SSM article, we should move that article to something less one-sided like
2814:
1241:. The pain that your comments caused me would be on par with telling an infertile woman that she wasn't a woman because your personal definition of woman required that they be able to bear children. I am devastated by these personal attacks and will consequently be taking an indefinite wikibreak. I don't know whether I will be able to return. --
4141:
809:. I haven't read the book myself. I just translated the plot description from swedish wikipedia, which characterized the relationship between the two women in the book as a close friendship, but from all I recall of reviews etc it's a lesbian relationship. If anyone who has read the book or knows more has some input that'd be great.
1293:
our LGBT community and I have logged on today to be utterly astonished that anyone would question that. I hope Alice that you can see past this out of the blue comment and see it simply as a reason to keep on educating and keep on raising trans awareness so others in your situation does not suffer more of the same in the future.
1563:
editor suggested it could be that she was considered a gay icon, although I've read nothing to support that. I'm hoping someone very familiar with the project and its guidelines can explain why the LGBT template is included on the discussion page for this article. Thank you very much for any enlightenment you can offer me!
3396:(revised comment) removed prod... the article does need serious attn (ideally from someone w/ more knowledge than me of non-westernized gender roles etc) but it is an interesting article. as for project inclusion, if what the article says goes on in men's spaces really goes on, that would seem to fall in our scope. (lol)
2094:. Such an article could discuss, for example, the motivation of legislators in restricting marriage to opposite-sex couples, as well as the effects of such restrictions, and the ways in which opposite-sex marriage does or does not differ from same-sex marriage or marriage in general. That article could be linked
487:) are admins that belong to this project. There is no LGBT targeting going on at most of these articles. Although what happened at Matthew Shepherd was weird and I wouldn't have supported that move. That being said. The "Murder of..." is actually the recommended title for articles about murder victims. Please see
1967:
by interupting but that doesn't mean it didn't feel like yet another round of harassment on a murdered transperson article. If I had been treated this way on every article I would never edit again and i wouldn't blame others from walking away as well. Just because thuggishness is allowed doesn't make
1783:
SatyrTN's right, it was highjacked in the middle of me doing an entire rewrite and now is being rather owned by some seemingly unique POV editors. IMHO, it would be smarter - and less stressful - to simply start all over pulling the good bits from the history and build from there. In an atmosphere of
1292:
roles. Bob Hope would be considered surprised to be called trans and indeed so would I, because there's a big difference between someone who wears dresses for entertainment, and someone who finds cross-dressing to be a significant part of their life and gender presentation. Alice is very much part of
997:
I'm going to briefly state that I'm upset you would imply any sort of bad-faith on my part, Alice. I'm a big believer in transgender rights, am (today) honoring
Transgender Rememberance Day, and even occasionally wear dresses, though I prefer the self-identification of "Queer" rather than trans. So
899:
Crossdressing does fall under the scope of tansgender studies, but the act of cross dressing itself, is fundamentally different from gender identity. Children develop a sense of gender identity by age 4. I myself knew my gender identity to be female at that age, despite my genetic sex being male. The
2571:
Yikes - each article worse than the next. Various merge discussions deserve some thought but you'll note each article is longer than the next and all just full of facts - which are helpful but detract from the actual articles and our readers understanding of the various subjects. I still don't see a
2462:
is a pile of POV-pushing to help legitimize the rather controversial theories and research by this trio of folks. IMHO, this content should be laid out in the relevant article(s) not presented as established mainstream accepted content that templates imply. If this is fine then what's wrong with all
904:
appearance is always male, I have viewed myself as female since childhood- I do not view myself as a man in any way, regardless of my genetic sex. Cross-dressing, then, is not necessarily the same as gender identity. Numerous transgender people throughout history and today have lived closeted lives,
514:
Edit warring certainly isn't going to help you win an argument. There's nothing here that is all that urgent, so I'm unsure why anyone feels the need to move an article multiple times in a 24 hour period. Clearly people at this project feel passionate about the location because some feel that moving
3901:
My guess is that editor has been run off and likely won't bother posting again. As the first sorority group for lesbians of color it would seem to squeak by on notability and there are some bits in books confirming what the article states. I would consider just trimming it if needed. As lesbians of
1820:
Good gracious, Cameron Scott. This is not the place to address whatever problems you have with the editor. I have not, as I state below, been involved with the list, so I don't know its problems intimately. However, I am familiar with a style of collaboration, such as it is, where editors "help" by
1562:
I recently have read two
Lawrence bios, neither of which even remotely suggests she was lesbian or bisexual. In fact, it appears she had a steady succession of male lovers, in addition to two husbands. Does anyone know what led to this article being included in the WikiProject LGBT studies? Another
989:
I disagree - being a transvestite does not automatically make you transgender, except under the very loose definition of "gender queer". Being transgender very much includes a personal statement of belonging to a gender other than the one you were born with, which is stressed in all the literature
3923:
I found a short article from 2004 from Curve, the best selling lesbian magazine in the U.S., and also a reference from a college guide and added them to the article. I think some of the stuff in the middle about philanthrophy projects could be trimmed as non-encylopedic, but I haven't checked out
1426:
and am looking for a concise source that mentions that his views on homosexuality have been repudiated by the
American Psychiatric Assn and the American Psychological Assn. Everything I can find talks about his getting chucked out of the latter APA but nothing that specifically says that both APAs
712:
I also have 2 more to do for the gaylactic spectrum award, then will try for a featured topic on that. Its a pretty specialist topic (at least according to stereotype, we're not supposed to be interested in science, huh?), so i suspect will allways have problems getting comments from general users
4023:
Could someone tuck this little article under their wings? It's about a current LG marriage activist, and she's both well-known enough and little-known enough that a brief, well-written biography on
Knowledge is appropriate and useful. I met the article in an AfD and helped it out a bit, but it's
3948:
an anonymous editor made two changes to gender words (he to she) but left a lot in tact. I'm not familiar enough with the guidelines on gender use to revert. One change is that
Brandon's mother still referred to "her" (changed from him) as "her daughter" The second is "In 1993, after some legal
1805:
You need to quit with this shit - all I see is you running around wikipedia badmouthing people because they wanted a sourced article. I've *never* removed a sourced entry that confirms to the criteria set down at the article. Your constant attempts to paint me as a homophobe have failed, when you
552:. There is already a policy in place and I'm following it. Furthermore, there were two lengthy discussions at Amanda Milan and Gwen Araujo which were made before we made the title changes. The decision at both articles was done through majority consensus. That's exactly the process recommended at
4178:
and I think richly deserves inquisition by AfD. Still, I know squat about gay erotica; maybe this really is somebody who merits a worthwhile article. Can somebody here who knows about this stuff either start to go through the (self?) awards and the like, or send the drat thing to AfD? Thanks. --
2233:
Ideally, it would not be WP:OR--my rather flippant summary above might be OR, but obviously, the real article would need to be supported by real sources, and probably wouldn't contain fake arguments about the sky falling. The
Coatrack criticism comes closer for being a better counter-argument.
2178:
Marriage includes both same-sex marriage and opposite-sex marriage. Opposite-sex marriage would be an article in which the motivations for ensuring that same-sex couples don't wed could be analyzed, and the effects of such restrictions (both positive--evangelicals feel happier, the sky does not
1934:
Bluntly - the sources in that article were complete and utter shite - people were just wholesale lifting names of dead transsexuals and adding them regardless of the cause of death. For example, if someone was found murdered in their flat - that was added as a hate crime, even if nobody had been
1080:
SatyrTN, I apologise if my comments came across as assuming bad faith. That was not my intention. I was probably too emotional when I posted my initial comment here. Perhaps I should have simply taken the course of action that your comments inclined me towards and simply silently quit wikipedia.
1899:
Sorry I haven't been involved with this, but as I can't deal with a lot of crap from tendentious editing, it's often easier for me to build in my sandbox and impeccable article, post it, and let the opposers deal with reliable sources at their will. I find most arguments are over poorly sourced
1028:
is clearly within the scope of transgender topics, which automatically includes Izzard, who has 1) self-identified as a transvestite (on stage no less) and has incorporated his transvestitism into his public persona. I know a few trans people both pre-op and post-op who have never used the word
739:
LGBT good article, and with these two (soon to be) featured lists, and the featured topic on the way, i was wondering about recognizing contributions in the newsletter. There aren't that many promotions each month, and would make a nice positive note compared to all the politics (Obama isn't my
330:
from top to bottom. Since I have access to a university library, that includes news articles for most major newspapers as far back as 1996 or so. If one or more of you will be the writer(s), I will send you this material. Make your email address available to me and I will send you several dozen
2266:
I guess my opposition in the coatrack realm is that there isn't much difference between promoting a particular bias and "purposefully counteracting" a particular bias. IMO. But the real question is, is it encyclopedic? Are there books on how opposite-sex marriage is not same-sex marriage? --
1109:
gender) they have been and always will be a part of the LGBT community. Just because they experiences are unique in that they often personally are able to fly under the radar when it comes to many human rights issues doesn't mean they aren't a part of what makes the LGBT communities unique and
1258:
Alice, I sincerely apologize if something I've written has offended, but I've re-read the talk page and believe that I have kept on the subject of the article and have not said anything personal at all. I am terribly sorry, though, if my ignorance has caused you hurt. I've requested that
880:
To me, this is a very fundamental issue. As a cross-dresser, I have a social life as a female that is entirely separate from my life as a male. I live a significant portion of my life as a female even though I am, by definition, a heterosexual male. If this doesn't meet the definition of
628:. In the first case, the retitling was deemed appropriate by the editors based on a discussion at an AfD and subsequently on the talkpage. In the second, it was decided that Holloway had achieved notability in herself that went somewhat beyond her disappearance. These cases predate
4051:, where a couple of us have been reviewing the category situation as a whole. The Nov 24 !vote didn't get much input, so it was re-nommed on Dec 15. That one *still* hasn't gotten much input. Would anyone who wants please stop by and give opinions and !votes? Thanks! --
2131:
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "pushing the envelope"...I have the vague notion that it implies "trying to do more than you can get away with", but I would like to at least know more about why we wouldn't be able to get away with doing that. I notice also there is no
4173:
seems to be the autobiographical puff-piece of a photographer of softcore gay erotica. The man claims to have been exhibited and widely awarded, without deigning to offer a shred of confirmatory evidence. The article has had an "Oh really? So prove it" template for over
1259:
21stCentury re-read his comments and retract them, because you are right that there is no call to address your situation, only the situation of the article. Please consider coming back from your WikiBreak and educating those of us that freely admit their ignorance? --
3972:
The first one is clunky but OK, the 1993 one has been changed. This article is simply plagued with anons and spas. It needs to be completely rewritten but until it's all done at once it remains a bit of a battleground. If the anons are numerous and persistent then
3433:
I think there are currently sufficient RS in the article to establish notability, so I endorse removal of the tag. But I added some additional ones on the talk page if you want to check them out for even more backup. NLGJA actually grants an award in addition to
3751:
If you are talking about the young guy with black curly hair and large glasses, that Milk meets on the street (while with a bunch of friends walking by Milk's photo store), and who initially can't be bothered but shows up later waiting by the store, then it's
671:
1539:
Thanks for referencing it. I've added the WP tag to his talkpage. I'm not sure he should be categorised - the referenced don't say for sure whether he was gay or simply targeted as gay. BTW, I find this strange - since Nazis killed so many gays, why was he a
2798:. Because of police harassement, a gay club in small-town France is going to close down on December 31st. It seems symptomatic of homophobia in provincial France. However, it is bound to be met with reverts and accusations of "trivia". What do you think?
4092:
This was approved. Now they want someone to do the work. I'm happy to take a piece of it. Any idea how we'll categorize people who we can't be sure whether they are L, G, B or T? I have two more category things, but I'll put them at the bottom.
3284:
is the place to start and it looks like it's broken down geographically rather than by party lines. It may be because additional categories explain which parties they are associated with and also because many politicians are in more than one party.
698:
2919:
All of it - do it yourself. Create the article, and show it off here...then I will know if I can link it somewhere. Collaboration - showing photos, sharing ideas and doing your own thing in the ultimate end. Welcome. Now...dazzle us with your
1033:
identity, not just his stage persona. As I pointed out above, people such as Martin
Lawrence, who would only put on a dress to portray a comedic character, which has absolutely nothing to do with his personal life, would not be within the scope.
1311:
Now that I've had some time to calm down, I realise that I over-reacted a bit. I am a little surprised that SatyrTN believed that a long deprecated meaning for "transgender" was current, but I now realise that he didn't mean any harm by it. As
3885:
and does not establish notability of the subject (the warning tag is on the article since
September 2007). Does anyone of you know of secondary coverage, etc. about this organization? Or should the article rather be removed as non-notable?
3673:
I googled, but found no commentary whatsoever on that particular spoof. However, also back in 2006 McGreevey apparently dropped out of a
Letterman appearance, and Letterman did a McGreevey top ten list. This did receive some commentary in
2305:
article overwhelmingly deals with opposition to the subject including every conceivable reason as to why it should not be legalized. Basically, is there anything that an opposite-sex article could cover that isn't already covered by both
2503:
and its wikipedia coverage should be significantly cut back. I'm very concerned at some very significant POV pushing and abusive behaviour from one or two editors in that area, which seems to be successfully scaring off neutral editors.
4218:; if it is in this month's issue, newsagents have no more copies to sell where I live. I think the best thing would be to get the German page translated into English, then add the Advocate reference and possibly the short Tetu one too
2238:, where we could then discuss both same-sex marriage and opposite-sex marriage with regard to the particularity of the gender constellation, as opposed to more general discussions of marriage that apply to all constellations equally.--
3613:
I gave you the link on youtube. The article mentions his books. David Letterman appears to be watched by millions of viewers in the US and worldwide. I suggest that we add 'the book was met with homophobia, such as David Letterman's
2552:
weight to what is really fringe material. But as for the template specifically, the mixing of fringe topics and established fields of study gives undue credibility to the fringe stuff. At the very least, keep the template focused on
2572:
need for this template at all. POV-pushing should be restricted to articles, and when found there rewritten or otherwise fixed. These articles do seem to be a fringe-a-thon of sorts but it will take a bit to unravel it all.
3653:"The book was spoofed" would discredit Governor McGreevey; a mention of the homophobic tone would discredit Letterman. I am actually disappointed in Letterman for this homophobic spoof - this is me voicing my opinion...
515:
to "Murder of..." dehumanizes the LGBT victims. You feel passionate about naming conventions. For the time being I think it would be a sign of good faith to stop move warring and start a broader policy discussion.
706:
2300:
by default primarily concerns opposite-sex marriage which is the primary reason why there is social/political debate over same-sex marriage; its the very reason "same-sex marriage" has an actual term/label. The
1968:
it right. Congrats - you win - out of the 240+ listed I gave up after less than a dozen. Knowledge is just so much better for having watchdogs keeping editors like me from adding neutral and sourced material.
560:. Those are just a few of many reasons that I prefer the "Murder of..." titling. In some cases, as in Matthew Shepherd, I think the person became an icon so they deserve their own article. That is my two cents.
3735:
yet. I can't seem to remember who the curly-haired bespectacled young guy is...I'm looking for the actor's name - he doesn't seem to be listed on the article and yet he is a rather important character in the
3957:, where she (formerly he) identified solely as a man. These seem wrong, but given that there are only two in an article full of gender references, I'll leave it to those more familiar with the guidelines.
491:
which clearly explains the policy. Most of these articles should really be titled "Murder of..." Matthew Shepherd would be a rare exception though given the high profile nature of his case. In the cases of
994:, who would be *very* surprised indeed to be labeled trans. Furthermore, there's the issue of self-identification. Izzard does not identify as transgender - a cross-dresser, perhaps, but not transgender.
1236:
definition of transgender (which happens to also correlate quite well with the legal definition in every state and territory of Australia, where I live) is directly in contravention of the first point at
1174:
First, it designates individuals who do not fit into the categories of transvestite and transsexual. ... Transgender is viewed as a "viable option between crossdresser and transsexual". (Holly, 1991:31)
3475:
Checking relative to what? Please clarify request as there is nothing on the talk page since January 2008, and the only recent change history is about the charge of rape against the two kids. Thanks. —
3902:
color, especially in The South, aren't known for actively promoting and publicizing their presence I'm guessing sourcing will be a hunt. Maybe college and LGBT media where chapters are known to exist?
1643:
I've seen that. Thank you. Just one thing, when you say, 'Other sources state that many problems persist alongside allegations that these reforms have not been fully implemented' - which reforms?
702:
590:
Amedure and Shepard are the only two of the above articles that I, personally, think ought to stay under their names. The others should probably stay under "Murder of...". Just my opinion. --
449:
I'd like to say I have no problem with this move. It just didn't make sense for the article to be located at one victim's name, and I certainly have no problem lossing the "Murder of..." prefix.
1320:'s personal attack, which I'm pretty certain was also an unintentional consequence of believing the same deprecated meaning of transgender. My apologies to all for being such a big sook. :p --
1220:
that were direct attacks on my gender identity. The statements in question were your first 2 posts to that section, and this from 21stCenturyGreenstuff (after already being warned about
664:
4044:
2968:
Yes, good one! I didn't bother to look because...zoo director sounded slightly flip...Also, I have put this request up here because I am very busy atm - so I hope other people can help.
3678:, including McGreevey's co-author calling the list a "nasty collection of sexual innuendoes". However, I found no one outright calling Letterman or the jokes homophobic. But this all
483:
I disagree with the decision to rename these articles and disregaurd the lengthy title discussions on the individual talk pages and the consensus reached there, some of whom (such as
2603:
180:
No, I played it off good! I acted like I was taking a picture of the wider plaza and audience, but then focused in on him. I was pretty far away. Besides, perhaps I caught
2117:
I think this is pushing the envelope. It should just be called marriage, whether you marry a man or a woman. Same-sex marriage has its own page because it is a topical issue.
1684:
500:
the titles were discussed first by those editors who have contibuted to those articles the most. We decided they were the prefered titles. I can't speak for the other pages.
314:
When I was mostly finished with the suite of articles about the Everglades, I turned back to WP:LGBT and considered which would be the highest profile articles to get to FA.
1861:
My apologies for the disruption - I'm just getting a little tired at how I'm being run down over this matter in multiple places. I reserve the right to reply I'm afraid. --
350:
There are appears to be a campaign underway to make the victims of anti-LGBT violence the object rather than the subject of their articles. In addition to Shepard, notice:
2488:
97:
89:
84:
72:
67:
59:
2813:
I wouldn't bother based on previous deletions of material along the same lines. There may be a better target article about homophobia; also you may want to also use the
3924:
other sorority articles to know what gets by as encyclopedic. I agree with Benjiboi that the article should at least squeak by on notability. Thanks for checking in!
3412:
1657:
Yikes. I dropped a sentence somewhere, I've re-added it now. I didn't find anything on transgender issues but they might term it differently so I just didn't find it.
877:
for some time. I don't know whether this is a misunderstanding on SatyrTN's part or whether he genuinely wants to exclude transgender people from the LGBT community.
290:
Matthew Shephard, Gwen Araujo, and Amanda Milan were moved back to their biography names. The admin who did it is getting yelled at. Some appreciation would be nice:
3418:
I have deleted the notability tag because there were references, it was inserted back; I have now added two more references...Does it still require more references?
1939:
a problem because we are adding such weak and non-existent cases - and that's also what left it open to AFD and would leave it open to AFD again in the future. --
1296:
Also, Eddie Izzard has previously said publicly that he considers himself a transvestite, and that deifnitely comes under our umbrella. Our big, gay umbrella. :)
3176:
It seems notable, so I guess so. Maybe as a link to the Gay Mafia and NYT articles? Tonchi's page is barely a stub at this point. I added a ref and reflist. —
2463:
sorts of templates laying out the main structural concepts of any fringe POV? Anyone else see this as problematic? Should this go to templates for deletion?
1766:
1135:
Alice, whyever do you believe that my comments have suggested you silently quit Knowledge? And furthermore, you have deftly attempted to turn an attack on
446:
379:
873:. The tip of the iceberg appears to be a decision on his part to side with the anti-LGBT types who have been attempting to remove the LGBT category from
2209:. Furthermore, it seems like all that content is why OSM *isn't* SSM. So why not keep the content in the SSM article? But that's just my opinion. --
1228:
But in the wider scheme of things technically no you are not transgender, you are a transvestite (in older parlance) or more modernly a "cross dresser".
1179:
Second, "transgender is used as an encompassing term for transvestites and transsexuals as well as for those who do not fit neatly into either category.
1147:. Note that I haven't even touched the article, merely started a discussion on the talk page. I'm sorry that you have taken that as a personal attack.
391:
3581:
1143:- why, exactly? Aren't we both trying to work towards a better encyclopedia? I'm simply requesting information and asking to correct an article -
3028:
I'll leave that to someone else; having worked on the article all day I kind of feel like I'm too far into the poor guy's personal space anyway ;)
47:
17:
3505:
3000:
Maybe you could add a reference for his being gay? (I think the Advocate article may be enough.) I added the WP tags...must dash to the library!
2496:
2769:
2639:
123:
736:
553:
488:
3598:
I have neither read the memoir nor seen the spoof, but that does not sound important enough to me to add to the article about McGreevrey.
835:
have found there way onto the pages of wikipedia with frequent deletions by anonymous editors and a talk page longer than the article.
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and review my 3 lists of gay science fiction award winners? They have no opposes, but need 4 supports to pass, even if they are perfect.
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FWIW, working with this editor isn't doing anything but causing me stress so I'll cite health concerns as a valid reason to avoid them.
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says only New York does. Which is right? I did a brief Google search last night, and couldn't find anything on any of the three states.
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were killed because they were trans. More names probably need to be added back, though. There's now debate over the title (currently
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I've done a bit of housecleaning over there as well concerning the lesbian "health" section - input welcome concerning that content.
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core concept here is "identity". Despite the fact that I have not had sex reassignment surgery, nor hormone therapy, and although my
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OutHistory.org needs volunteer administrators, content providers, etc. Please take a look at the site and see how you can help.
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as the first sentence and article refer to Pride Week in Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Saskatoon and Winnipeg. Discussion is welcome.
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I would certainly consider someone who cross-dresses to be transgender, the act of putting on the clothes of a different gender is
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Also, notice that the Araujo & Milan articles have been stripped of relevant facts and decategorized, including removing the
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I think they did get deleted but I'm not sure why, maybe NPOV? Politicians sometimes change political parties in their careers.
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about transgender studies (including our article). If everyone who put on a dress was considered transgender, we'd have to tag
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would do with a translation I think. It's about the last gay survivor of the Holocaust of course. I found a short article in
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caught and no motive was established. And that's the worst thing in the world to do because it makes it look like hate crime
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I agree that the template should definitely go for deletion. It's arguable whether some of the related articles should too.
1002:, and b) requesting clarification on one particular article does not mean I'm out to wipe transgender folks off the map. --
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Unless this list is expanded considerably beyond the two names it contains, I don't think it warrants a Knowledge article.
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PS - If you didn't see the episode where he was interviewed by the Daily Show's Samantha Bee, I highly recommend you watch
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in terms of including information about his anti-gay speeches and positions: such additions have been repeatedly removed (
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2532:. I don't have a lot of time to put up merge proposals, deletions etc but if you want to, go ahead with my blessing. :) --
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2866:'s page is topsy turvy. Anyone care to create referenced pages on Berry and Hochberg, and possibly improve Maxell's page?
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I'm not opposed to an opposite-sex article in theory, I'm just wondering if its actually necessary for an encyclopedia.
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reliable sources. Please consider it. It would take about 2 months to get to GA or FA. I will help with copy editing. --
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Oh, thank you. I didn't recognise him in the pictures on wikipedia I suppose? He is so incredibly cute in the film lol!
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Heh, perhaps we'll have cause to change the article's name in the near future :) I've also just gone ahead and created
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The disagreements between some elements of the lesbian community and the transgender community that boiled over at the
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fall, civilization does not disintegrate--and negative--gay couples feel discriminated against) could be described.--
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At one point, this was a good list. IMO, it's been hijacked, reworked, destroyed, and is now just about useless. --
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I don't have a strong opinion, but I know after going through some politicians's pages that categories need mending.
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of cross-dressing and identifying as a transvestite makes Eddie Izzard transgender. Otherwise, we may as well untag
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Hochberg seems to be on facebook, in the New York network. Anyone from NYC care to message him to take his picture?
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VOLUNTEERS NEEDED: OutHistory.org, a free, educational, MediaWiki-based website about LGBT and heterosexual history
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what is the accepted use in wikipedia for the the term 'partner' and/or domestic partner beyond the legal context?
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Will certainly do that. I was thinking about starting December's next week. I'll call for submissions as well. --
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I have a friend doing German at Oxford who was willing to help out with WP:LGBT articles, I'll give her a bell.
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for inserting this information 10 times into the article. If you have any input, the discussion, such as it is,
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Chiming in a bit late, I don't think that (at least for now) we have any need for a separate article on OSM.
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I mostly agree with you, Bookkeeper, that the act of cross-dressing does not make you transgender. But the
4214:, but as always there is no reference...Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to read his full interview in
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I've heard of the gay mafia but never regarding the NYTimes specifically...Should we change Tonchi's page?
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I would support "the book was spoofed", etc. Characterizing it as homophobia might be OR unless we state
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Didn't we have those categories, but they got deleted? Or we at least had one but not the other, maybe?
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I only got involved to clean up formatting (!) could people knowledgeable about the subject and sources
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SatyrBot tagged her as lesbian, yet the page does not mention her lesbian subjectivity. I've found this
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Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 December 15#Category:LGBT actors from individual countries
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about some possible new LGBT-related stub templates that should hopefully reduce the load in the main
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and I realised there was no page on John Berry (well, there is, but he doesn't seem to be on the list
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Basically echoing the above here. It's not just the template, but that whole group of articles convey
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really outside of my area (botany and geology, especially when the two meet in fossils). Thanks. --
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Do we have categories for LGBT Democrats and LGBT Republicans? I think not. Shouldn't we create them?
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Well, sure - but part of the point of the WikiProject's to enlist others to help. Let's do it! :)
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I plan to move these back to their original names and have started a thread about these renames
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There is a bit about Petain calling him a sissy. Could this be verified or should we remove it?
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Is there a centralized location for these discussions? They seem to be all over the place. --
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3508:. Any input from this project is welcome on that page. There's also currently discussion at
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Telling a transgender person that they are not transgender because you don't agree with the
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Perfect. Thanks for the sourcing, just what I was looking for. I'll check out that video.
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information. If you start with strong sources, your list will be less likely to erode. --
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Benji, I'm learning as I do some more research that there seem to be two definitions of "
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Actually this project can't set policy and I find the suggestion to be a massive case of
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Cameron, any reason you can't work *with* Benji to add references to listed entries? --
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about what title this article should have. Any interested parties feel free to comment.
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I think I'll create a page with a summary of his novel when I've read it. Objections?
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president, we didn't ban "gay marriage") and delisting of articles that get included.
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2986:. Perhaps someone wants to go and rescue it the stubby status I've inflicted on it?
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Oh, and having a bit of a look at the other articles on that template, I agree with
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hold official policy stands that are in opposition to his. Anyone got a suggestion?
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says New York, Rhode Island, and New Mexico all recognize foreign gay marriage; but
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template to indicate it was in process. Perhaps you were within your rights to act
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Bluntly, I was in the middle of NPOV rewriting and sourcing each entry and had the
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By all means. The German page is long and referenced, that would be a good start.
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Has anyone read his memoir? I assume that David Letterman's spoof was homophobic
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Who is in more than one party? I am talking about US politicians. For instance,
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Although not directly related to Obama, I think there should also be a page for
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are done. One of these days, I'm going to take on the entire world's concept of
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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Now everyone knows I have a thing for curls and big glasses. How embarrassing!
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i was wondering if i could get some comment on what's looking to be a war at
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It is currently prodded. If it is kept, should it be added to the project?
2646:. Does he deserve a page? (Where do we find out how many copies were sold?)
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to be a more appropriate subcategory of it.Again, input is welcome there.
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Knowledge:Templates for deletion/Log/2008 December 17#Template:BBL sidebar
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the guy referenced in the article as a candidate for interior secretary?
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326:, which freaks me out, but I'm looking for an intrepid editor to rewrite
3080:, but not the other ones...Please note that this group was mentioned by
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Gay Men's Debut Fiction and the Gay Men's Fiction Lambda Awards in 2006
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1187:, but I'm glad to participate in the discussion and learn from it. --
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3506:
Knowledge:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/2008/December#LGBT split
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AFAIK, we don't have a guideline or any "accepted use" indicated. --
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She's happy to do it, shall I just create the page when she'd done?
824:
help with article on UK lesbian columnist and anti-trans campaigner
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913:). I'm rambling cause its almost 4am, but I hope im making sense.
780:. Could someone please insert it so it makes sense in the article?
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A useful comparison of similar naming problems would probably be
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I thought some of us would enjoy this latest addition of mine to
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UC-Davis has a concise but thorough examination of Paul Cameron
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LOL, he is probably like, "Why is this homo taking my picture!"
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was affiliated with. I do think the categories would be useful.
3881:. The article is in a bad state, it was apparently created in
25:
4043:
Back on Nov 24, I nommed some categories to be merged. See
3583:. Shouldn't we mention that on Governor McGreevey's article?
2499:. In effect, BBL is about a minority theory that borders on
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at one point. I'm not sure where to find that again though.
713:(who all only care about sports! - it goes both ways :-D)
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so we aren't simply repeating the exact same information?
3068:'s page... I looked them up and there is also a page for
2762:
Thank you. Jonathan Ned Katz, Director, OutHistory.org
632:, but were the principal reason that it was formulated.
4047:. This followed some discussion that some of us had at
1218:
Talk:Eddie Izzard#Transgender, transsexual, transvestite
3496:
Hi - just a heads-up that I've initiated a proposal at
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the specific Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence articles.
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665:
Constructions of Subjectivity in Franz Schubert's Music
452:
Also, you should take the two you're unable to move to
3725:- one important character/actor missing from the list?
3104:
This is a tired old conspiracy theory. Instead of the
2787:- homophobic harassement led to gay club closing down.
1578:
FYI, this is being addressed on the article talkpage.
1380:. Any eyes on the article as well would be welcome. --
1364:
Greek Islanders, gay, bisexual and transgender project
1105:
Um. Hello. Cross-dressers literally go across gender (
3249:
Dropping by with a piece of good news. Best wishes,
3550:
I'm running up against a good deal of resistance at
3314:
is a lesbian Democrat...I was wondering which party
2687:
Someone found the number of copies in libraries for
1761:
I can see the point of keeping it to people whom we
404:
Could editors please keep an eye on these articles?
3086:in their April 2007 list of most powerful gay men:
2491:is a blatant POV fork and should go or get merged.
1685:
List of people killed because they were transgender
2489:Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence theory controversy
884:I'm trying to figure out where we go from here. --
554:Knowledge:Notability (criminal acts)#Article title
489:Knowledge:Notability (criminal acts)#Article title
716:AFAIK, there are no LGBT themed featured topics?!
3877:, which seems to relate to your project, on the
3704:It sounds like an interesting start, doesn't it?
3413:National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association
2661:If he won a Lammy (or two), I think that passes
1769:) - could use some opinions on the talk page. --
292:User talk:Gwen Gale#Amanda Milan and Gwen Araujo
3460:Would anyone mind checking out this article? --
1446:. For Cameron's relationship with APA, see the
3795:is a link. He's wearing a wig, apparently. —
2905:'s article could do with some extra input too
1422:I'm putting together an article that mentions
1239:Knowledge:No personal attacks#Personal attacks
212:Ok, I need clarification on which is correct.
3558:). Additional input would be appreciated. -
3504:. Discussion of the proposal can be found at
2406:over the use of the term domestic partner. --
2090:, maybe it would be good to also have one on
1484:. It may be my favorite episode of all time.
1372:in English refers to Greek Islanders. I have
693:If people have time, could they jump over to
8:
2236:marriage of particular gender constellations
2102:article. Anyone feel inspired to do this?--
1767:List of unlawfully killed transgender people
881:"transgender", then I don't know what does.
264:Currently there is an ongoing discussion at
4278:Over a week later...Is she on holiday? lol!
4211:...There is a page on the French Knowledge
4107:Send them up to the next general category.
2791:I was wondering if we could add this story
865:has apparently decided to start redefining
447:Murder of Roxanne Ellis and Michelle Abdill
380:Murder of Roxanne Ellis and Michelle Abdill
1336:Renaming issue Pride Week 1973 (Vancouver)
4306:Apparently she's now halfway through. :)
3261:Category: LGBT Democrat, LGBT Republican?
2711:He's also a NYC tour guide. I don't know.
392:Category:Victims of anti-LGBT hate crimes
3729:I was wondering if anyone else had seen
1450:. For repudiation of his "research" see
266:Talk:Murder_of_Matthew_Shepard#Page_move
1368:Bet you didn't know the primary use of
1160:, University of Illinois Press, p. 23,
122:. Also uploaded backstage photos from
18:Knowledge talk:WikiProject LGBT studies
2497:Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence theory
1607:Could anyone please improve this page?
1024:I have to disagree with you here too.
44:Do not edit the contents of this page.
3198:Mississippi#Gay and lesbian community
709:. (Link to review page through talk)
7:
4292:Yes! It's the christmas holidays...
4201:Does anyone speak German? This page
3843:I have a thing for Emile Hirsche in
2950:After a bit of investigation, isn't
2855:(who comes up in the search results
2495:should also be deleted or merged to
2201:I don't know - it sounds a bit like
3998:Somebody reverted pretty quickly.
2755:http://www.outhistory.org/Main_Page
2665:. Beyond that, I don't know :) --
24:
2150:How would this be different from
4197:- request for German translation
4139:
3518:Category:Sex and sexuality stubs
2759:CONTACT: outhistory@gc.cuny.edu
735:In a related note, i've made my
674:if any members wish to comment.
670:This article is up for deletion
29:
3455:Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni
2839:
2100:California Proposition 8 (2008)
2642:for his first and only novel,
1316:suggests, I'm going to ignore
861:I'm rather upset to note that
427:. Could an admin please help?
1:
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3624:18:58, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
3609:18:49, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
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3568:05:38, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
3541:22:16, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
3486:09:09, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
3470:19:31, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
3448:08:55, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
3428:22:51, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
3406:20:07, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
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3343:17:55, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
3328:08:35, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
3302:03:29, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
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3136:Mafia, as examples, it's the
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3064:Please read the quotation on
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208:Foreign marriages recognition
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3949:trouble, Teena moved to the
3849:(another Sean Penn film). --
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3212:this section is irrelevant.
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2602:- Nominated for deletion at
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3955:Richardson County, Nebraska
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2844:I was reading this article
1342:Pride Week 1973 (Vancouver)
909:as "sheneneh jenkins" from
558:wikipedia is not a memorial
370:The murder of Rebecca Wight
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2526:Etiology of transsexualism
1318:user:21stCenturyGreenstuff
1214:user:21stCenturyGreenstuff
1139:around to be an attack on
124:last night at Rock of Ages
3310:is a gay Republican, but
3282:Category:LGBT politicians
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731:Recgonition in newsletter
310:Article improvement offer
259:Murder of Matthew Shepard
3522:Category:Sexuality stubs
3280:If I'm not mistaken ...
2452:I remain convinced that
2134:Category:Heterosexuality
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695:featured list candidates
441:As the editor who moved
421:Murder of Glenn Kopitske
375:Murder of Glenn Kopitske
365:Murder of Michael Causer
114:A man wearing an A-shirt
2840:Obama's LGBT appointees
2694:A Visitation of Spirits
1691:Your input is welcome.
419:I was not able to move
385:Murder of Scott Amedure
130:from American Idol. --
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4016:Wikification request:
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630:WP:N/CA#Article titles
498:Murder of Amanda Milan
360:Murder of Amanda Milan
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3760:. But he's listed. —
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3243:Oscar_Wilde#Sexuality
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3089:. What to make of it?
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425:Murder of Gwen Araujo
355:Murder of Gwen Araujo
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3233:New featured picture
3206:User:AlexiusHoratius
3196:FYI: Please "watch"
2528:should be merged to
2252:I don't buy into it.
2098:, as well as in the
1602:LGBT rights in Yemen
869:in order to exclude
857:Goodbye Transgender?
622:Murder of Eve Carson
128:Constantine Maroulis
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3202:User:Christchild777
2815:English translation
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3316:Jeff Trandahl
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2853:Fred Hochberg
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2689:Randall Kenan
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2534:AliceJMarkham
2531:
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2506:AliceJMarkham
2502:
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2469:
2458:
2448:POV template?
2447:
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2375:
2372:
2369:
2365:
2364:
2363:of the Occult
2356:
2354:
2353:
2346:
2343:we also have
2342:
2341:
2340:
2339:
2336:
2332:
2331:
2330:of the Occult
2323:
2321:
2320:
2313:
2309:
2304:
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2016:
2015:
2014:
2013:
2012:
2011:
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2003:
2002:
2001:
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1983:
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1976:
1966:
1959:
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1941:Cameron Scott
1938:
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1863:Cameron Scott
1860:
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1808:Cameron Scott
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1715:LiteraryMaven
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1565:LiteraryMaven
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1418:Sourcing help
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1346:request moves
1343:
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1322:AliceJMarkham
1319:
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1308:
1307:
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1300:, who misses
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1083:AliceJMarkham
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1051:
1050:of the Occult
1043:
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929:of the Occult
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895:
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886:AliceJMarkham
882:
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845:
844:CyntWorkStuff
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821:
820:
816:
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805:, creator of
804:
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443:Roxanne Ellis
440:
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218:this template
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4206:The Advocate
4200:
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4116:
4110:
4042:
4022:
3986:
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3754:Emile Hirsch
3730:
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3533:
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3459:
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3379:
3375:Men's spaces
3356:
3335:
3334:
3294:
3264:
3248:
3213:
3195:
3083:Out Magazine
3081:
3070:Ben Brantley
3063:
2924:
2903:Nancy Sutley
2883:Garnet Lewis
2843:
2826:
2790:
2761:
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2085:
2048:
2042:
1977:
1971:
1965:WP:Dickishly
1936:
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1762:
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1694:
1690:
1666:
1660:
1631:
1625:
1606:
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1581:
1561:
1523:
1519:Abel Bonnard
1424:Paul Cameron
1421:
1404:
1398:
1367:
1339:
1295:
1289:
1285:
1283:
1231:
1211:
1178:
1173:
1170:for example:
1157:
1145:Eddie Izzard
1140:
1136:
1119:
1113:
1106:
1049:
1048:
1038:
1037:
1030:
959:and rewrite
957:transvestism
948:
928:
927:
917:
916:
901:
883:
879:
875:Eddie Izzard
863:User:SatyrTN
860:
839:
837:
830:
826:Julie Bindel
803:Tove Jansson
800:
776:
734:
715:
711:
692:
676:Voceditenore
669:
485:user:rebecca
403:
396:
389:
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313:
263:
223:
211:
192:
185:
181:
150:
134:
117:
106:Just for fun
78:
43:
37:
4320:Jolly good.
4049:WT:LGBT/CAT
4018:Molly McKay
3758:Cleve Jones
3560:Outerlimits
3241:Appears at
3192:Mississippi
3126:Evangelical
3114:Freemasonry
3110:Rosicrucian
3078:Frank Bruni
2764:—Preceding
2457:BBL sidebar
2203:WP:COATRACK
2078:Article on
1152:Transgender
961:transgender
867:transgender
320:Harvey Milk
36:This is an
4176:two years,
4095:Scarykitty
4039:Categories
4000:Scarykitty
3959:Scarykitty
3953:region of
3951:Falls City
3926:Scarykitty
3756:who plays
3520:, or just
3462:Silvestris
3398:Outsider80
3106:Illuminati
2849:John Berry
2663:notability
1486:Queerudite
1464:Queerudite
1448:fact sheet
1166:0252068254
965:Queerudite
429:Queerudite
406:Queerudite
98:Archive 25
90:Archive 23
85:Archive 22
79:Archive 21
73:Archive 20
68:Archive 19
60:Archive 15
4322:Zigzig20s
4280:Zigzig20s
4266:Zigzig20s
4223:Zigzig20s
4076:Zigzig20s
4026:KP Botany
3856:Shankbone
3811:Zigzig20s
3776:Zigzig20s
3738:Zigzig20s
3706:Zigzig20s
3655:Zigzig20s
3616:Zigzig20s
3585:Zigzig20s
3573:Governor
3420:Zigzig20s
3320:Zigzig20s
3267:Zigzig20s
3160:Zigzig20s
3142:Gay mafia
3138:Gay Mafia
3091:Zigzig20s
3030:Gonzonoir
3016:Zigzig20s
3002:Zigzig20s
2988:Gonzonoir
2970:Zigzig20s
2956:Gonzonoir
2938:Gonzonoir
2927:Shankbone
2907:Gonzonoir
2890:Zigzig20s
2868:Zigzig20s
2800:Zigzig20s
2727:Zigzig20s
2713:Zigzig20s
2699:Zigzig20s
2648:Zigzig20s
2501:WP:FRINGE
2417:followup:
2254:Zigzig20s
2119:Zigzig20s
1645:Zigzig20s
1609:Zigzig20s
1542:Zigzig20s
1526:Zigzig20s
1288:gressing
782:Zigzig20s
634:Fritzpoll
562:Nrswanson
502:Nrswanson
195:Shankbone
184:checking
137:Shankbone
126:starring
4144:Resolved
4063:contribs
3829:Becksguy
3797:Becksguy
3762:Becksguy
3530:Grutness
3498:WP:WSS/P
3478:Becksguy
3440:Becksguy
3178:Becksguy
3146:Becksguy
3134:Lavender
2766:unsigned
2677:contribs
2550:WP:UNDUE
2434:contribs
2408:emerson7
2308:marriage
2298:Marriage
2279:contribs
2221:contribs
2166:contribs
2152:Marriage
2029:contribs
1743:contribs
1500:Otto4711
1429:Otto4711
1271:contribs
1199:contribs
1154:". See
1031:personal
1014:contribs
992:Bob Hope
949:practice
902:physical
602:contribs
214:This map
4054:SatyrTN
3975:WP:RFPP
3692:Siawase
3614:spoof'.
3436:Outlook
3221:ALLST☆R
3210:decided
3122:Italian
3118:Liberal
2862:); and
2796:Bourges
2785:Bourges
2668:SatyrTN
2600:Comment
2559:Siawase
2425:SatyrTN
2270:SatyrTN
2212:SatyrTN
2157:SatyrTN
2020:SatyrTN
1734:SatyrTN
1378:is here
1370:Lesbian
1350:SriMesh
1262:SatyrTN
1190:SatyrTN
1005:SatyrTN
811:Siawase
593:SatyrTN
445:to the
324:Lesbian
39:archive
4312:Jeffpw
4308:Dev920
4298:Jeffpw
4294:Dev920
4256:Jeffpw
4252:Dev920
4242:Jeffpw
4238:Dev920
3883:WP:COI
3827:lol -
3510:WP:SFD
3252:Durova
3130:Jewish
2885:- see
1958:in use
1771:Alynna
1687:at AfD
1458:, and
1314:WP:NPA
1302:Jeffpw
1298:Dev920
1290:gender
1222:WP:NPA
955:&
840:please
807:Moomin
742:Yobmod
718:Yobmod
550:WP:OWN
4181:Hoary
3851:David
3736:film.
3680:might
3676:WP:RS
3602:Aleta
3384:Aleta
3336:Aleta
3208:have
3132:, or
2922:David
2524:that
2383:Aleta
2240:Bhuck
2207:WP:OR
2181:Bhuck
2154:? --
2138:Bhuck
2104:Bhuck
1937:isn't
1902:Moni3
1823:Moni3
1382:Moni3
1286:trans
1107:trans
757:Moni3
737:first
650:Moni3
333:Moni3
296:Moni3
190:David
132:David
16:<
4326:talk
4284:talk
4270:talk
4227:talk
4216:Tetu
4185:talk
4152:Banj
4111:Banj
4099:talk
4080:talk
4059:talk
4030:talk
4004:talk
3981:Banj
3963:talk
3930:talk
3906:Banj
3892:talk
3833:talk
3815:talk
3801:talk
3793:Here
3780:talk
3766:talk
3742:talk
3732:Milk
3723:Milk
3710:talk
3696:talk
3659:talk
3636:Banj
3620:talk
3589:talk
3564:talk
3536:wha?
3482:talk
3466:talk
3444:talk
3424:talk
3402:talk
3351:Banj
3324:talk
3289:Banj
3271:talk
3204:and
3182:talk
3164:talk
3150:talk
3144:. —
3095:talk
3034:talk
3020:talk
3006:talk
2992:talk
2974:talk
2960:talk
2942:talk
2911:talk
2894:talk
2872:talk
2821:Banj
2804:talk
2774:talk
2731:talk
2717:talk
2703:talk
2673:talk
2652:talk
2611:Banj
2577:Banj
2563:talk
2555:just
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