Knowledge talk:WikiProject LGBT studies/Archive 54

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make the claim that it isn't the same as having a proper "marriage" - it's a "same-sex" pseudo-marriage. Marriage is the same for a man marrying a woman or a man marrying a man. Thus equality. I don't want articles using language that rather permits a position that it's only the same if you think it's the same. Legislatures and judiciaries that have changed law in this regard have done so solely on the grounds of ensuring the same rights for all citizens within the State. Incidentally Sdino you haven't yet explained why you think such a mass change is necessary - what is wrong with the way that articles are currently worded?

3635:"top 100" LGBT lists in well recognized publications (he's been in Attitude and GLAAD's), then this is a significant part of his public persona and cultural influence of encyclopaedic note. I agree that putting this in the first line of a BLP is highly controversial, however my suggestion is to make a list article and then the discussion moves to a simpler one of what is, or is not, a suitable reliable source. The question of what might be appropriate for lead text is a long and tricky one that I would not want to invest an awful lot of time on. At the end of the day it's mostly a question of layout, as relevant BLPs 3860:, an article about a BP executive who received a CBE from the Queen herself and led quite the fabulous life internationally. He was also gay, had a partner, but he was closeted at work according to John Browne's memoir. Is anyone interested in expanding it? It could be a good candidate for DYK: a very successful gay professional, yet closeted at work. Note that he was in charge of a huge oilfield in Alaska, where gay rights are not ideal. Even worse in places like Somalia, Papua New Guinea, etc. I think there is potential to turn it into a feature article. Please ping me or write on my talkpage. Thank you. 3807:. Jenner, as some might be aware, is an Olympian-turned-actor-turned-Kardashian-reality-star who in the last year or so revealed his identity as a woman, Caitlin Jenner. It may not be quite clear to the rest of the Knowledge universe how to best treat these situations, and I think it's a smart idea if members of this project reach out to seek global consensus for the inclusion of specific guidelines for the related media WikiProjects as to how to sensitively and academically address these issues. Your thoughts are welcome here, but maybe there's a better global venue for this discussion? Thanks, 1365:

subject, the matter has been discussed on the article's talk page and a consensus has been reached. For example, an article on equal rights may discuss 'marriage equality' in the context of a political rights campaign that commonly uses those words in reliable sources, and the editors have come to an agreement that it is suitable to use that term. Rapid mass changes should be avoided, as an article's sources must be checked that they support the chosen terminology. Bringing articles in line with this proposal is permitted immediately after the discussion has ended.

3460:), but it's not one of the default pieces of information such as birth year and nationality (look at the many, many biographical articles we have, and few if any of them identify the individual as "straight"). It's not key to Ricky Martin's notability, as his greatest notability was before he was out. None of this is to say that you shouldn't be doing things to point out to those who might be coming out all of the great known out folks out there, I think there is much good to be doing so... but this is not the venue. -- 3196:. I would like to add bits about this to relevant pages, but I've only been able to get it onto the Gaydar page and the LGBT stereotypes page. Any suggestions for where else it could go? I was also hoping to have a full paragraph for this study on the Gaydar page - information about previous studies on that page are about a paragraph long, but my edit was edited down to only a sentence. Does anyone have any suggestions for what I should do? Thank you! 2226: 31: 1888: 1814: 1791: 1769: 1747: 1725: 1685: 1615: 1593: 1571: 1500: 1472: 1450: 1428: 1406: 3387:

his homosexuality (way, way, way down at the bottom of the entry). I said that I thought it was necessary to bring it up in the first sentence of the entry for younger generations of LGBT people looking for role models. Not only that, but it is a part of his identity, just as much as Puerto Rican and singer. An anonymous editor later removed "gay" from the entry.

4029:, where they're both discussed, with an emphasis on the former. At first, I thought this sounded like a wrong I could go right, but looking over that article, I'm not so sure. Is homoflexibility notable on its own—has it been the subject of the sort of high-quality references we have on heteroflexibility? I'd like to think so. Maybe someone could take a look. -- 1549: 1191: 860: 2264:). Unfortunatly, some paragraphes need citations and I am not sure that the articulation of all the ideas is always well-done... I wanted to tell you that because I think Anita Bryant's campaign is one of the most important moments of LGBT history in the US. And perhaps someone here has material which could improve the actual page... 1522: 188:

original date of my civil partnership and the marriage certificate uses that same date. At the same time, I have friends who have no plans to upgrade their civil partnership to marriage, though socially most will describe them as being married and may not be aware of the difference when writing about them. --

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Do you know for a fact that being gay is such an important part of this person's identity? For some people, being gay, bisexual, lesbian, asexual, etc. is not any more important to point out than a straight person's sexuality would be. We shouldn't be forcing people into the part of "role model," and

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In the spirit of National Coming Out Day, I thought I would edit some Knowledge entries dealing with LGBT public figures who have come out. In the first sentence of the Ricky Martin entry, I added "gay" before "Puerto Rican". Another editor told me that this was not necessary since the entry mentions

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The goal of the guideline isn't to impose upon BLP subjects the necessity of using a specific word to describe their sexual orientation - it's to prevent categorization based on tabloid-style "Gibb and her Secret Lesbian Lover on vacation! pics inside!" Gibb wrote about her marriage to a woman in her

1908:

Can you provide an example of a recognized English dialect that you would propose as an exception (this may need to be broken out as a new discussion thread if it needs sources and detail)? The proposal was written with any English in mind, certainly I did intend to write it in American English, as I

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Same-sex marriage is considered a standard neutral term over alternatives such as 'equal marriage', 'gay marriage', 'homosexual marriage', or other words to that effect. Exceptions may be appropriate for some articles solely where sufficient reliable sources use a different terminology to address the

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Same-sex marriage is considered a preferred neutral term over alternatives such as 'equal marriage', 'gay marriage' or 'homosexual marriage'. Exceptions may be appropriate for some articles where sufficient reliable sources use a different terminology to address the subject. For example an article on

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Elizium23 - running around and changing wording in articles on the basis that they are "liberal POV" is not helpful. Who is to say that a "non-liberal POV" is any more desirable? I would rather we try and reach a position here via consensus about how to handle terminology on the use of "equality" and

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There is a second wrinkle that many may find confusing. I was in a civil partnership which years later has become a marriage after the law changed in the UK to allow for an "upgrade"; the confusing part is that legally my marriage is retrospective, so it can be correct to date my marriage back to the

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Please consider the sources and context. In articles about a person it may be more appropriate to state they are married, and to whom, rather than using qualifiers. For more general articles about rights, law and marriage, then same-sex marriage is likely to be the most appropriate term, however this

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article for Featured Article status. For those not familiar with this incident, it was a prominent anti-LGBT killing that took place in Jamaica in 2013. This is actually the third time that I have nominated this article, with the previous two FACs having failed primarily due to lack of interest. I'm

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article is problematic in several directions: prose that needs a lot of copy-editing ("fictionnal"; "prospective" used in the meaning of "perspective" – just two examples from the first sentence); maybe not even a stub. So I see three possibilities: (1) expand/rewrite without delay; (2) merge into a

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Why same-sex marriage and not gender-neutral marriage? That's a common term used in many places that have adopted legislation. Likewise why not the term "equal marriage rights for same-sex unions". One of the concerns I have with a blanket adoption of same-sex marriage is that it allows opponents to

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I welcome this debate and am happy to abide by whatever consensus is reached. My concern is that changes continue to be made by individual editors with a particular viewpoint (and who have stated that they are opponents to gay marriage). This is not the best way to determine an overall approach that

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This is a significant pattern, given that mass changes were made so close together that it is not credible that sources were carefully reviewed to support changes in terminology. If the same changes continue without establishing a consensus for mass changes, I suggest this evidence is taken for more

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Thanks for raising the question. Sorry there has been a bit of a "pile on" here, but there are plenty of good viewpoints given. I suggest a practical way forward is to search through what lists currently exist for globally notable public figures who are significantly known for being role models for

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The first sentence will unavoidably be read as a statement about why this person is notable. We generally steer clear of race, ethnicity, and sexual orientation as independent components of that statement, I think for good reason. For whom aren't those important characteristics? Where gender, race,

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searching Google is little 'proof' of anything, let's not rely on this rather than finding good quality reliable sources;for example "butt sex" gives over 10 times more returns than "sodomy", but these numbers have little bearing on whether these words are appropriate for a Knowledge article on the

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Thank you for asking. I appreciate your enthusiasm in seeking to have your lab's work reflected in Knowledge. Having said that, whenever you have something that your group did that you want to share through Knowledge, you are dealing with a conflict of interest. As such, my main suggestion is that

2882:) and that's why I brought it here: maybe a more appropriate shortcut can be proposed – as long as there's no consensus on that, however, I think it better not to have a shortcut to that project guidance section, so I'll revert again, leaving a link to this talk page section in the edit summary. -- 2613:

about it right in her own new book — but the person who suppressed this source isn't responding to my request for clarification of how the source fails to be sufficient. So I'm simply at a loss as to what the problem is here; it's beginning to look and feel very much like there's a special secret

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I'm going to post this in another WP so we can get a lot of editors in on this. Basically, I think that this draft article has a good topic, but the article is written like a personal research paper. It also has too many citations, which kind of give off the impression that the editor in question

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If polygamous marriage is recognized in some societies that surely marriage does not have one definition - ie one man and one woman - and thus the issue here is not about redefining something. That's why I think use of the term would be odd. Homosexual people have been specifically prevented from

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And secondly, is anybody here willing to actually assist in either creating the merged lesbian literature article if that's the preferred option, or expanding the lesbian non-fiction article into something genuinely substantive if there's a preference to keep them separate? As a gay man, I'm not

1577:- this seems eminently sensible. "Same-sex marriage" is quite clearly the most appropriate neutral term; it is simple and descriptive; and, I would venture to guess, it has the greatest "market share" in common usage (maybe second to "gay marriage", but there are good reasons not to use that). - 1121:

This is a bit of a tangent, the proposal allows for variation depending on sources so we don't have to get too trapped into alternatives that are less common or more specialized, such as in legal or scientific usage. In practice I think we could put Sdino's revised version to a vote. Aside ...

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Thanks for the clarification! I read through the COI page. I understand why I shouldn't be looking for places to fit the research in! I guess my only concern now is the Gaydar page specifically. Because it is the most recent research and it did suggest conclusions that were different from

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I can understand not wanting Transgendered to be the suggested shortcut listed on the page, but redirects are often there for people who are casting about and may not know the right answer. That "transgendered" is offensive and "transgender" not is not something commonly known in the general

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section to the article. I thought maybe you peeps wanted to include it in your group of sites covered by your project and add your label to its talkpage. I mean, the film has Polanski run around in drag and pretty much turn into a woman, all happening in a way that's highly disturbing to his

3265:. Make your case there, suggest what you'd like included, and see how the other editors respond. Make clear when you post there your link to the lab. You may or may not get the result you want (none of us get all of what we want here), but it's the best way of presenting your argument. -- 289:(which can be a broad term, by the way), but the WP:Alternative name policy is not about accuracy. Terminology is usually discussed lower in a Knowledge article, in an Etymology and/or Definitions or Terminology section. The "same-sex marriage" vs. "gay marriage" aspect is similar to the 2916:

We should not be using offensive terms as shortcuts, IMO. Doing so is not comparable to using an antonym of a guideline, e.g. using WP:BITE to get to "don't bite". I also think it's confusing for WP:TRANSGENDER, WP:Transgender, and WP:TRANSGENDERED to not all redirect to the same place.

1070:. Therefore, "same-sex marriage" is the most commonly used term for what we are discussing, hence it is one of the best ways to describe it. We could eventually add that "gay marriage" is acceptable, but "same-sex marriage" is the norm and preferred over "gay marriage", in my opinion. – 843:

At the moment I don't think there is an overwhelming consensus and loopholes have not been pinned down. Perhaps a clear proposal would help and we could vote on it locally (rather than a 30 day RFC), and specific exceptions could be noted in the discussion if needed. Say, for example,

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previous studies, would it be okay for me to write a bit more than what is currently on the page? Another sentence or two? Or, in order to avoid a conflict of interest, do I have to wait until someone that isn't affiliated with this lab wants to add it to the page? Thanks again

3490:) then it can be noted in the introduction — but for the vast majority of people, their sexual orientation is not a detail that needs to be noted that prominently right in the introduction. Rather, it's a detail that rarely needs anything more than a brief acknowledgement in the 3768:

I wonder if we could get some more eyes on this? I suspect editors here are more familiar with these arguments than I am (particularly, justifying the idea that it is bad form to put a deadname all over the talk page while discussing whether or not it goes in the article), and

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policy, "gay marriage" should be in the lead, because it is a very significant alternative name for same-sex marriage; when same-sex marriage is not called same-sex marriage, it is usually called gay marriage. Yes, yes, people in the same-sex marriage might not identify as

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I can't help feeling this has all been a bit rushed. We have failed to establish why a change is necessary. Nor have we established why same-sex marriage should be the terminology used across the piece. Nor have we satisfied ourselves that there are no risks in that.

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equal rights may discuss 'marriage equality' in the context of a political rights campaign that commonly uses those words in reliable sources. Rapid mass changes should be avoided, as an article's sources must be checked that they support the chosen terminology.

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Could you rewrite the proposal incorporating your changes? Many relate to the suggested process, rather than changing the intent, so I doubt that extra voting is needed, we just need to run with a version. Minor improvements can be factored in later if needed.

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uses three terms: "Same-sex marriage", "gay marriage" and "gender-neutral marriage" and states that "same-sex marriage is sometimes referred to as marriage equality or equal marriage by supporters.", so it would not be a NPOV to include that in articles. –

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I would be cautious in making any sweeping changes if extending this proposal. For example an article that currently uses terms like "gay relationships" or "homosexual partners" may be considered correctly worded given the context and available sources.

1731:- It's the most plainly descriptive term, though there are shades of difference in meaning among the alternatives that suggest there might sometimes be a reason to depart from it (particularly when discussing legislation that uses different language.)-- 251:

This is not the right place to discuss any specific article. If you are making mass changes to these sensitive terms, then please seek a consensus covering those articles (such as an RFC) before continuing, or it is likely to be considered disruptive.

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And certainly the article is not so full that it cannot be expanded with material on homoflexibility if we have it; as concepts they would seem at first blush to have more in common then in differences, and can be explored more efficiently together.

3080: 3077: 3698:), and I was amazed to see that this article had been created and deleted. Anyone interested in India's re-criminalization of homosexuality may want to help out with improving the article and giving an opinion in the undeletion review. Thanks -- 3071: 3074: 3068: 2060:

section now), which is that the film seemed to use gender roles, (both physical and civil) death, and (both physical and mental) disease as a nightmarish chiffre for forbidden and repressed sexuality in a way that occured highly reminiscent of

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picked and chose from the sources to back up their original research. It basically just needs a re-write and to have the citations pared down some, since there is some definite citation overkill going on here. The draft article in question is

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ethnicity, or sexual orientation is for a specific reason a fundamental part of notability, it's best to make explicit why (e.g., not "...is a female race car driver", but "...is the first female to win an AMA Pro Racing sprint road race").--

2336: 3216:. While it does allow for citing your own work within reason, when you have a study and go around looking for places to insert it, that can be read by some as your having an interest in promoting the study rather than serving Knowledge. -- 892:

Terminology should reflect the reliable sources, otherwise either the sources are not reliable/insufficiently represent all points of view (and the action is to add more sources), or the English Knowledge is suffering from being a bizarre

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ensures neutrality on a sensitive subject and consistency across all articles. Until this matter is resolved I would ask that individuals exercise restraint and respect the collaborative peer approach which is the hallmark of wikipedia.

305:" to the Same sex marriage article, however, was not needed, and I was close to reverting it. I didn't revert because I figured that someone else would likely revert, and it was not a big deal to include "homosexual marriage." The term 217:

Consensus cannot override policy. For many people this has been an issue of redefining marriage and that is definitely underplayed in articles at present. Would you equally support "redefinition of marriage" as an equal, neutral term?

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easier and more reliable way to find LGBT public figures that one isn't already familiar with than randomly deep-scanning individual articles over and over again for the presence or absence of the word "gay" in their body text.

800:(their description). This is a sensitive area and more care than this should be taken before making mass changes, especially if it turns out that the sources underpinning specific articles use the phrase "marriage equality". -- 2100:

point here was to promote her book rather than to write a genuinely encyclopedic article about lesbian non-fiction as a thing in its own right — especially given that she specifically offlinked her book's title to its page on

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then only make amendments in light of that. Unilaterally making changes based on emotion is not the way to go forward. For many people this has been an issue of equal civil rights, and we should be careful to underplay that.

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It pretty unambiguously says that she had a wife. Not knowing much about her, she seems to be bisexual from the article. Last time I looked, Toronto Star was a good reference. How about using her memoir to source it too?

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for instance). I'm simply stating that we can't assume her sexual orientation unless she's stated it explicitly. (I am queer myself, for the record, and don't have any agenda to keep people from being listed as LGBT.)

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is not special/required, but just one form of relationship (well, multiple forms, since legal, religious, and civil unions can differ yet still be regarded as marriages depending on the personal and cultural milieu).

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I suggest the !vote is left open for at least 10 days (allowing for 2 weekends), longer if there is anything about the wording that causes contention or anyone asks to leave it open for longer; there's no particular

3667:, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the 2648:

Suppressing the edit seems pretty extreme in this case, but if she is not currently married to a woman, we shouldn't assume that she currently identifies as a member of the LGBT community, bisexual or otherwise.

2096:, and which names just six books within the entire history of the genre — one of which is a not especially notable book written by the same person who created the article (thus igniting the suspicion that the 3713: 2197:

Thinking this over probably the second solution would work best, also for the numerous fiction/non-fiction cross-overs in lesbian literature, e.g. for some it is difficult to determine on which side of the

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of the article. Kids who are "looking for role models" aren't going to lose that ability just because the word "gay" appears on line 300 of the Knowledge article instead of line 1 — we already have entire

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Sure. The key point here is not about "being right" but being led by reliable sources and consensus. These mass changes in a wide variety of articles, happened on the basis of one editor's perception that

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aside, who is perfectly civil and who I am pinging here so they know I have made this request) there does seem to be a bit of an influx of anons coming with all the usual repugnablogger talking points.

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and several other women-related Wikiprojects and taskforces at the above link. Some aspects may be of interests to editors of this project and your participation in the discussion would be appreciated.

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Some editors seem to making unilateral changes to individual articles despite the fact that a discussion here is ongoing. I don't find this helpful and risks an inconsistent approach across the whole.

3800:, specifically about the proper way to credit individuals who worked in notable projects in the past and who were credited under Name A, who now identify as trans and are now credited under Name B. 365:

about having a RfC on this topic, but I think that "marriage equality" is the term used by supporters of same-sex marriage, and hence is deemed their point of view, so it is not neutral. The article

3067:. Should any of the information in the draft be merged into either a revitalized Boystown, Chicago article, or into the Lake View article? There are plenty of references online about this topic. ( 2663:

Has she made any more recent statements indicating that she now identifies as straight? It's laughable to suggest that people who aren't currently in a relationship have a null sexual orientation. –

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And now I see that I initially thought that Elizium23 and Ron 1987 were changing text from "same-sex marriage" to "marriage equality." It is the other way around. My reading comprehension was off.

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I agree that that's not really the role of an encyclopedia. If they are added to an appropriate category for LGBT musicians or entertainers, people looking for role models can find them that way.

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Fair point. Absent a clear guideline, I think it just needs to be decided through the normal editing and dispute resolution process. Of course, someone could also propose adding it to the MOS. -

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In the spirit of IAR, more editors may get involved if it's boldly moved into article space. I doesn't seem that bad. I don't have access to most of the sources, so I probably can't help much. -

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Should we split the gay male genre out into separate fiction and non-fiction articles so that they parallel the lesbian ones, or should we merge the two lesbian articles into a single article on

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Thanks for suggesting it. I would have liked to pick it up but it fits Arbcom's wide definition of 'sexuality', hopefully someone else will draft it out. It would take careful sourcing to avoid

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memoir, I think that's open enough for WP standards. Her sexual orientation hasn't changed, just because she's not currently in a relationship, unless she's made a statement to that effect. –

2521:(which is admittedly not a policy) explains that "the old name should be kept as a re-direct if it is still a well-known name likely to be searched for by people unaware of the name change." 936:

Either a more exhaustive list of alternative terms ("marriage equality", "redefinition of marriage", etc.), or "alternatives such as 'equal marriage', 'gay marriage', 'homosexual marriage',

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by supporters. The legalization of same-sex marriage is characterized as 'redefining marriage' by opponents." I don't see how "marriage equality" is more neutral than "same-sex marriage."

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Lam is a YA author who's works so far heave an intersex protagonist. The article is listed at AfD. Her article would benefit form attention, and in particular needs research to meet

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I would also ask for a separate vote on every change to the proposed text, both mine and any other change that other editors may have, and then a final vote on the amended proposal. –

1775:- Same-sex marriage seems to be the best terminology. Gay marriage, homosexual marriage, marriage equality, and marriage redefinition are all biased and/or problematic in some way. 3390:

So my question is this--does Knowledge have any conventions or rules related to this issue? Has WikiProject LGBT ever discussed this issue? I look forward to hearing more about it.

962:" – I think that a single rapid mass change should be permitted immediately after we finish discussing this proposal, in order to bring the articles in line with the new consensus. 118:, that the term "same-sex marriage" would be used, unless quoting individuals. If so, should all the instances where "homosexual marriage", "gay marriage", "marriage equality" 1067: 704:

However, the proponents of the "marriage equality" term cannot come up with any evidence that it is an NPOV term, therefore all those changes aren't wrong, in my opinion... –

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certainly not insisting that the folks on here automatically lend my nomination their support, but it really would be nice if some could take a look and offer their opinions

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was nominated for deletion. The AfD has been relisted twice because no clear consensus has emerged; I would be grateful if project members could take part in the stalled

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For example, an article on equal rights may discuss 'marriage equality' in the context of a political rights campaign that commonly uses those words in reliable sources,

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For example, an article on equal rights may discuss 'marriage equality' in the context of a political rights campaign that commonly uses those words in reliable sources,

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source for her outness about her sexuality that has been removed from the article since 2013 for being "not good enough" — and the second in a row to have been entirely

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as a memorable generic shortcut. I have used the term this way often enough in dialogue elsewhere and never had a complaint, or a suggestion of a better word to use. --

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The CHiPs example focuses on Bruce Jenner, who was one of two actors who replaced Erik Estrada and Larry Wilcox as the leads on the 1977–83 American television series

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I don't remember the link to the policy, but I believe that for trans people, we only include the birth-assigned name if that's the name they became notable under.

1478:- I stumbled on this discussion entirely by accident, but it seems like a common sense proposal, comparable to references to interfaith and interracial marriages. 3192:

I thought this would be the best page to ask - I am a research assistant at the University of Wisconsin - Madison in a lab that recently published a study on the

3571:, there are some useful resources and on-line places to discuss and raise this further if you (or anyone else here) is interested in taking it forward. Thanks -- 2589:

class of BLP "violation", instead of just being reverted the way inadequate sources for sexuality usually are. And I'm still failing to comprehend how this even

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If sources discuss the topic as "redefinition of marriage" what do we do then? Just because RS have a term doesn't mean it's neutral and suitable for Knowledge.

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No, I agree completely. I just felt that I should mention it – but, as you said, this can be decided on a page-by-page basis. I would certainly be in favour of

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for leading LGBT figures using the best sources, might be a practical suggestion for a future editathon or a wiki-loves-Pride event. If you have a look at the

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But, why? I would agree conditionally on that. I think there would have to be enough reliable sources and consensus to introduce that term into an article. –

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Unfortunately, I didn't find any source for another of my personal interpretations (besides those kafkaesque ones that could be sourced and hence are in the

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I agree, but I also think that "marriage equality for same-sex couples" (or similar wording) is also appropriate when discussing legislation and the like. –

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the LGBT community (such as appearing in the various "top 100 most influential gay people" on websites and in magazine articles). It may be that creating a

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Nothing here overrides NPOV. The proposal explains how best to comply with the policy and avoid any apparent point of view warring in this sensitive area.

3419:"I said that I thought it was necessary to bring it up in the first sentence of the entry for younger generations of LGBT people looking for role models." 1894:- with the proviso that this only applies to articles in American English, other dialects of English have quite different connotations around some terms. 3361: 2737: 3421:—An encyclopedia isn't exactly the place to be looking for role models; nor should it be a goal of an encyclopedia to provide people with role models. 2425:

I don't see the problem. In a reliable source she says, "I was born and raised as a boy named Ramesh Venkatesan. This March, I became Rose Venkatesan."

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Feel free to expand this new stub. Has anyone read his books? I don't have the patience to read his articles. Apparently they're allegedly homophobic!

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Since Bullycide has largely but not always affected LGBT kids I felt it appropriate to ask members of this project to contribute to the discussion.

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enjoying the rights of heterosexual counterparts and thus the argument about equality before the law is certainly more intellectually convincing.

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to determine how to guide editors to refer to transgender people when they are mentioned in passing in other articles. Pursuant to discussion on

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I would like to invite any members or participants of WikiProject LGBT studies to join the discussion concerning "Homophobia controversy" at the

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has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the

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Amendment changing 'extent' to 'effect' in the first line, making no change to intended meaning. Apparent mistaken phrasing in the original. --

2370: 955:" – As this is a controversial matter, I think every editor should have a chance to discuss the matter of the terminology used in the article. 3932: 2964:

community, and it's in our interest that the person who is casting about for it should be able to find that information, rather than not. --

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in the last month shows the following diffs (links given using edit comments, mostly changing "marriage equality" to "same-sex marriage"):

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Definitely "same-sex marriage" would be preferred over "homosexual marriage" or "gay marriage". However, "marriage equality" is also fine.

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as a shortcut to the guidance that contains "Transgendered is also offensive and deprecated by style guides and should also not be used" (

1621:- "Same-sex marriage" is the preferred term and should be used when possible; exceptions would be usage in quotes, headlines, laws etc 2070: 933:

neutral term over alternatives..." – 'Preferred' is usually used when dealing with opinions, so I don't think it should be used in this.

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to determine how the Manual of Style should guide editors to refer to transgender people in articles about those people. Concurrently,

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Um, I didn't say or imply anything about a "null" sexual orientation. Though some people indeed change orientations to become asexual (

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It appears that the draft about Boystown, Chicago has been deleted under db-g13. If anyone wants to work on it, it can be restored.—

2879: 2517:, for example, did not, and each attempt to include her birth-assigned name in her Knowledge article has been reverted thus far. The 3329: 1855: 1820:- "Same-sex marriage" is the most neutral and precise term and to be honest is the only I think of that's not biased in any way. – 3149: 3618: 3587:"... public figures who are significantly known for being role models for the LGBT community (such as appearing in the various 3426: 3409: 3349: 3341: 2831: 2672: 2261: 754:

Elizium23, what is up with your changing directions? By that, I mean, now changing "same-sex marriage" to "marriage equality."

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Could use some fleshing out. There's a couple of sources in the "External links", and more available on-line. All the best:

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The above site added to the UK National Community Archives. License issued for inclusion in British Library UK Web Archive

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by Karl W. Böhm). Yes, I know, the film was released shortly prior to when Polanski's legal troubles began, but still. --

958:"Rapid mass changes should be avoided, as an article's sources must be checked that they support the chosen terminology. 450:, "Legal recognition of same-sex marriage or the possibility to perform a same-sex marriage is sometimes referred to as 2922: 1019:

Rapid mass changes should be avoided, as an article's sources must be checked that they support the chosen terminology.

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nearly knowledgeable enough about lesbian literature, beyond a few of the obvious big names, to tackle that by myself.

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Support, and apply this to parallel constructions ("same-sex relationships", "same-sex partnerships", etc.); marriage

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Dear editors: This old draft will soon be deleted as stale. It was declined at AfC as too promotional. Right now,

165:"marriage equality" is purely and clealy liberal POV, and I have changed it everywhere I could find it in a search. 3671:. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. 3614: 3422: 3001: 2954: 2905: 2887: 2453: 2207: 2188: 1946:. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. 298: 281: 38: 3738:

I just wanted to bring the attention of this WikiProject's editors to the fact that I have recently nominated the

2863:) I still think the TRANSGENDERED shortcut to be offensive, and should be eliminated (including a deletion of the 3752: 3478:

details of what makes a person notable, not every single detail about their entire life. If their sexuality is a

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still be categorized in ways that make them list-able for those searching for LGBT related notable people. --

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Knowledge:WikiProject LGBT studies/Guidelines#How to write about transgender, non-binary, and intersex people

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The CanWWR source is a website run by an English professor but researched and checked by a group of scholars,

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Please see discussion above for a background of why this proposal is needed and options already discussed. --

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history of homosexuality, this is a trap I ran into myself when trying to justify neologisms a few years ago.

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an inadequate source for her, when it would be entirely good enough for absolutely anybody else — it's in a

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and lesbian non fiction. So in the interest of ensuring that we're giving gay male and lesbian literatures

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As well, I'd like to note that on the gay male side of things, fiction and non-fiction are both covered in

442:. We should be using "same-sex marriage," like the sources do. The Same-sex marriage article is not titled 3833:. The current title is awkward, though descriptive of the scope of the article. Is a better one possible? 3739: 3732: 3325: 2618:

else and deliberately designed to be entirely unmeetable, that's been created just for her and her alone.

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Someone brought to my attention that we have an article on heteroflexible but not homoflexible. Indeed,

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When you put it like that, I have to agree... So, when are we going to put this proposal to a !vote? –

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by being based on internal style guides, and ignoring what reliable sources tell us, which is worse. --

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Oops, I see that Fæ was stating that Elizium23 was changing "marriage equality" to "same-sex marriage."

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Just wanted to point this article out to you people after having recently seen this little known 1976

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Bringing articles in line with this proposal is permitted immediately after the discussion has ended.

960:

Bringing articles in line with this proposal is permitted immediately after the discussion has ended.

917: 332: 240: 208: 3456:. We should definitely be including it in cases where being gay is key to their notability (such as 1660:

That's exactly what the proposal states, or at least how it reads to me. How am I getting it wrong?

4097: 4072: 4004: 3917: 3865: 3779: 3443: 3405: 3193: 3122: 2827: 2812: 2668: 2654: 2594: 2526: 2482: 2468: 2175: 2168: 2089: 2022: 2011: 1758: 1643: 1536: 1511: 883: 489: 223: 170: 156: 3605:, etc. Being gay is hardly a significant part of their public personas. And even with people like 2721: 4061: 3988: 3839: 3770: 3675: 3360:, I am notifying the two WikiProjects which are directly concerned with this topic: this one and 3297: 3165: 3064: 3027: 2415: 2276: 2180: 2137: 1803: 1780: 1604: 1289:

Is it a change, though? It seems to me that we're basically just formalising what is already the

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Strike suggestion as the proposal was converted to a full RFC, so cannot work in the same way. --

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neutral term over alternatives such as 'equal marriage', 'gay marriage', 'homosexual marriage',

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I added some LGBT categories along with supporting text, using the following three references:

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not covered in that article (e.g. Maaike Meijer, Judith Schuyf, Saskia Wieringa, J. ten Duis).

2153: 1970: 1895: 1736: 1692: 1691:- that's the most common neutral term used by other sources as well. Should be used here too. 769: 759: 728: 463: 366: 318: 111: 2859:

Agreed that on Knowledge some shortcuts mean the inverse of what the guidance is about (e.g.

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sourcing standard, head and shoulders above and beyond what would be sufficient sourcing for

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If you think that the term isn't neutral, then don't you mean all those changes are wrong?

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the matter has been discussed on the article's talk page and a consensus has been reached.

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the matter has been discussed on the article's talk page and a consensus has been reached.

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Revisiting MOS:IDENTITY in articles about transgender individuals, and in other articles

4093: 4068: 4000: 3976: 3913: 3861: 3857: 3850: 3775: 3695: 3593:—I'm not sure using those lists is the way forward, as they typically have people like 3557: 3487: 3453: 3439: 3401: 3173: 2860: 2823: 2808: 2803: 2664: 2650: 2522: 2490: 2464: 2117: 2106: 2041: 2015: 2007: 1821: 1754: 1639: 1532: 1529: 1507: 1240: 1226: 879: 484: 431: 290: 219: 166: 152: 115: 2410:

An editor's started an edit war, trying to add Rose's dead name. Could use some help.

2012:

Talk:Kellie Maloney#Do we refer to a trans woman by her male birth name in Knowledge??

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where sufficient reliable sources use a different terminology to address the subject,

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where sufficient reliable sources use a different terminology to address the subject,

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so that makes me consider it reliable. The Simon Houpt piece was published in the

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articles. As far as I know, the norm is to include birth names. See for examples

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This time, let's turn to Google for help. The term "same-sex marriage" gives me

438:. And this is where I feel the need to advise editors to be wary of engaging in 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

2513:

All of the people you mention became notable under their birth-assigned names.

2140:(currently a redirect to the fiction article) so that it parallels the gay one? 1017:

and the editors have come to an agreement that it is suitable to use that term.

953:

and the editors have come to an agreement that it is suitable to use that term.

349:, you are not helping by reverting everyone's changes to articles and breaking 3954: 3797: 3790: 3717: 3699: 3640: 3609:, I don't think it would be quite appropriate to start the article with words 3572: 3531: 3365: 2983: 2926: 2102: 2067:

Zwischen Selbstzucht und Verlangen - Thomas Mann und das Stigma Homosexualität

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Would a RfC still be a good idea or has this discussion solved the problem? –

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to prove my point. And, to me, gathering sources is a pain. Zumoarirodoka's

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The article has been undeleted and a second deletion discussion opened at

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currently redirects to the MOS; I suppose we could create a shortcut like

2897:& re-redirected the TRANSGENDERED shortcut to this talk page section ( 483:

For the record, a quick search of changes related to same-sex marriage by

4030: 3694:. The film about Siras' case and life was premièred in London yesterday ( 3594: 2536: 2502: 2429: 2391: 2352: 2237: 1965:

There is currently a discussion related to LGBT and Queer categories at

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Pinging all editors involved in discussion to make them aware of !vote.

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sources for Knowledge content, and even more importantly it explicitly

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Should this biography include commentary or reactions from politicians?

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I'm open to alternatives or tweaks to wording, then running the !vote.

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film and having been pretty floored by it, enough so as to add a new

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Talk:Kim_Davis_(Kentucky_politician)#Requested move 2 September 2015

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Knowledge talk:WikiProject Women § Complete reorganization proposal

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are used in the article text be changed to "same-sex marriage"? –

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Need new article for 26 yr old woman being sentenced to male jail

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Knowledge:Articles_for_deletion/Ramchandra_Siras_(2nd_nomination)

3154:

There currently is a discussion about the future organization of

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Move request: Kim Davis (Kentucky politician) → Kim Davis (clerk)

3716:. Please add to the article or put your viewpoint on the AfD. -- 2053:, it's not quite clear if it's either "ghosts or cabin fever". 1967:

WT:CAT/EGRS#Issues with LGBT, LGBT people, and Queer categories

446:; nor should it be. Like the lead of the Same-marriage article 3692:

Knowledge:Deletion review/Log/2015 October 11#Ramchandra Siras

3474:

An article's introductory paragraph is meant to summarize the

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I'd like to ask the members of this project to take a look at

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to change the title from Bullycide to Bullying and Suicide.

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Wouldn't a birth name typically be in the lead of a bio? -

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Proposal for "same-sex marriage" as a standard neutral term

633:

2015-07-06 02:36 Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Germany

591:

2015-07-21 01:03 Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Austria

540:

2015-07-21 01:36 Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Croatia

2722:"Does Heather Conway have what it takes to save the CBC ?" 597:

2015-07-21 00:59 Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Italy

585:

2015-07-21 01:04 Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Chile

558:

2015-07-21 01:20 Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_Kingdom

2949:

redirect leading to another section on the same page? --

2371:

Draft:Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Trans* (LGBT*) Ageing

2267:

Sorry for my English, I read it better than I write it.

1599:– "Same-sex marriage" is neutral and most precise term. 295:

discussion that was had at the LGBT community talk page.

114:, which terminology is correct? I would presume, as per 4021: 3060: 2898: 682: 676: 670: 664: 658: 652: 646: 640: 634: 628: 622: 616: 610: 604: 598: 592: 586: 578: 571: 565: 559: 553: 547: 541: 535: 529: 523: 517: 507: 447: 427: 423: 419: 415: 411: 407: 306: 302: 294: 3881:

Nominated for deletion, this could use a lot of work.

615:

2015-07-21 00:49 Religious_views_on_same-sex_marriage

609:

2015-07-21 00:51 Religious_views_on_same-sex_marriage

3534:. My view in that discussion, which I still hold, is: 2477:

The only related guideline that I'm familiar with is

2870:

I have no proposal for a more appropriate shortcut (

2844:

Shortcut to transgender section in project guidance

528:2015-07-21 01:45 Libertarian_Party_(United_States) 3393:RachelWex RachelWex 23:21, 11 October 2015 (UTC) 1007:. Exceptions may be appropriate for some articles 3905:The Glass Closet: Why Coming Out Is Good Business 3897:The Glass Closet: Why Coming Out Is Good Business 2120:, while lesbian literature is now covered by two 943:"Exceptions may be appropriate for some articles 663:2015-07-06 01:27 Same-sex_marriage_in_California 2787:are the top two mainstream Canadian newspapers. 2256:I am translating into French your article about 2132:levels of coverage, I wanted to ask for input: 657:2015-07-06 01:29 Same-sex_marriage_in_Minnesota 184:might depend on the wording used in the sources. 3482:aspect of their notability (as it is, say, for 3310:LGBT History Cornwall UK 'One Queer Gay Life' 2709:"Camilla Gibb carves out her own kind of happy" 2481:, but it doesn't say anything out birth names. 2351:. Interested editors are invited to comment. - 2236:. Interested editors are invited to comment. - 2232:A requested move discussion is taking place at 1961:Discussion related to LGBT and Queer categories 675:2015-07-06 01:11 Timeline_of_same-sex_marriage 570:2015-07-21 01:12 Same-sex_marriage_in_Portugal 3763:Talk:Jack_Monroe#Use_of_former_name_in_article 1062:. The term "gender-neutral marriage" gives me 926:I propose a few changes to the proposed text: 3306:LGBT History Cornwall UK 'One Queer Gay Life' 2754:Women Writing and Reading in Canada from 1950 1969:. Please feel free to join the conversation. 639:2015-07-06 02:33 Same-sex_marriage_in_Mexico 627:2015-07-06 02:37 Same-sex_marriage_in_Oregon 8: 3824:List of unlawfully killed transgender people 669:2015-07-06 01:24 Same-sex_marriage_in_Maine 3796:Hi all, some clarification is warranted at 3214:guide to dealing with conflicts of interest 2681:That's a good enough source for LGBT-ness. 2049:character, although just like in Kubrick's 651:2015-07-06 01:36 Marriage_Equality_Express 3999:Thanks for the note. I'm against the move. 3747:if they feel the desire to. All the best, 3362:Knowledge talk:WikiProject Manual of Style 3315: 2585:by somebody with oversight rights as some 621:2015-07-06 03:37 Washington_Referendum_74 3912:. Feel free to help me expand it. Thanks! 3829:Please contribute to the discussion held 3261:, the page for discussing the editing of 1638:That's not the intent of the proposal... 534:2015-07-21 01:38 LGBT_rights_in_Colombia 2271:Konstantinos (from the French Knowledge) 1058:. The term "marriage equality" gives me 645:2015-07-06 02:25 Maine_Question_1,_2012 3591:on websites and in magazine articles)." 2347:, has been posted at the talk page for 2165:LGBT writers in the Dutch-language area 564:2015-07-21 01:16 LGBT_rights_in_Europe 18:Knowledge talk:WikiProject LGBT studies 3289:A new discussion has been started at: 2777:Coalition pour la diversité culturelle 2726:Coalition pour la diversité culturelle 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3975:A move discussion is taking place at 3589:"top 100 most influential gay people" 2779:, so both of these give reliability. 516:2015-07-21 01:49 Dan_Brown_(blogger) 7: 3144:Re-organization of WikiProject Women 2707:Donaldson, Emily (August 22, 2015). 2569:support describing and categorizing 2485:provides guidance for names used in 2163:Note examples of LGBT literature in 1546: 1188: 857: 689:formal dispute resolution. Thanks -- 3627:On the other hand, if someone like 2775:and then it was republished by the 2750:"CanWWR: Biography of Camilla Gibb" 1066:. The term "gay marriage" gives me 929:"Same-sex marriage is considered a 681:2015-07-06 01:05 Heather_Matarazzo 2202:/(auto)biography line they are. -- 1528:- local consensus cannot override 999:Same-sex marriage is considered a 430:, Contaldo80, I see that you mean 24: 3611:"... is a gay American author..." 3379:Identifying LGBTIQ Public Figures 3312:http://www.gayhistorycornwall.com 3305: 3188:New Gaydar Study - where to post? 552:2015-07-21 01:27 Davina_Kotulski 3342:Village Pump thread has opened ( 2334: 2224: 1886: 1812: 1789: 1767: 1745: 1723: 1683: 1613: 1591: 1569: 1547: 1520: 1498: 1470: 1448: 1426: 1404: 1189: 858: 303:addition of "homosexual marriage 29: 4088:Anybody want to help me expand 3822:Discusion on article title for 577:2015-07-21 01:08 Equality_Ohio 3301:11:25, 19 September 2015 (UTC) 3275:23:38, 17 September 2015 (UTC) 3245:22:27, 17 September 2015 (UTC) 3226:14:38, 17 September 2015 (UTC) 3206:22:34, 16 September 2015 (UTC) 3183:12:20, 13 September 2015 (UTC) 3139:23:10, 30 September 2015 (UTC) 3092:10:00, 30 September 2015 (UTC) 3044:01:36, 13 September 2015 (UTC) 2919:Knowledge:Transgender pronouns 2720:Houpt, Simon (July 25, 2014). 2565:and help me understand how it 2561:Could somebody take a look at 2006:There is a content dispute at 2002:Edit warring at Kellie Maloney 1932:Good article reassessment for 582:(struck as appears tangential) 546:2015-07-21 01:32 Mary_Bonauto 1: 4102:19:34, 12 November 2015 (UTC) 4077:17:59, 12 November 2015 (UTC) 4055:23:26, 11 November 2015 (UTC) 4039:22:05, 11 November 2015 (UTC) 4009:20:50, 11 November 2015 (UTC) 3503:of LGBT people, and browsing 3212:you read through Knowledge's 3006:06:10, 8 September 2015 (UTC) 2992:03:03, 8 September 2015 (UTC) 2974:14:50, 2 September 2015 (UTC) 2836:01:21, 8 September 2015 (UTC) 2817:01:00, 8 September 2015 (UTC) 2797:22:30, 7 September 2015 (UTC) 2691:21:55, 7 September 2015 (UTC) 2677:21:29, 7 September 2015 (UTC) 2659:21:22, 7 September 2015 (UTC) 2644:18:54, 6 September 2015 (UTC) 2628:17:29, 6 September 2015 (UTC) 2543:01:17, 8 September 2015 (UTC) 2531:00:55, 8 September 2015 (UTC) 2509:22:05, 7 September 2015 (UTC) 2473:21:20, 7 September 2015 (UTC) 2459:16:54, 7 September 2015 (UTC) 2436:16:50, 7 September 2015 (UTC) 2420:16:42, 7 September 2015 (UTC) 2398:16:53, 7 September 2015 (UTC) 2385:05:37, 6 September 2015 (UTC) 2359:17:07, 6 September 2015 (UTC) 2324:15:34, 4 February 2015 (UTC). 2293:21:43, 6 December 2014 (UTC). 2244:14:32, 2 September 2015 (UTC) 1844: 1005:or other words to that extent 522:2015-07-21 01:47 Civil_union 297:In that discussion, I listed 106:Same-sex marriage terminology 3994:11:21, 4 November 2015 (UTC) 3963:05:07, 29 October 2015 (UTC) 3944:19:45, 28 October 2015 (UTC) 3922:02:17, 29 October 2015 (UTC) 3891:00:12, 28 October 2015 (UTC) 3870:00:33, 26 October 2015 (UTC) 3845:16:39, 17 October 2015 (UTC) 3817:02:57, 17 October 2015 (UTC) 3784:11:47, 16 October 2015 (UTC) 3757:18:34, 14 October 2015 (UTC) 3726:14:18, 14 October 2015 (UTC) 3708:13:49, 11 October 2015 (UTC) 3679:13:10, 14 October 2015 (UTC) 3649:16:32, 12 October 2015 (UTC) 3623:16:08, 12 October 2015 (UTC) 3581:15:14, 12 October 2015 (UTC) 3548:14:21, 12 October 2015 (UTC) 3530:This came up a while ago at 3522:13:12, 12 October 2015 (UTC) 3470:01:21, 12 October 2015 (UTC) 3448:23:51, 11 October 2015 (UTC) 3431:23:32, 11 October 2015 (UTC) 3374:21:49, 11 October 2015 (UTC) 3291:Talk:Sodomy#POV and "Sodomy" 603:2015-07-21 00:55 Equal_Love 3856:Hello. I have just created 3330:13:02, 2 October 2015 (UTC) 3156:Knowledge:WikiProject Women 3109:08:03, 2 October 2015 (UTC) 2959:19:40, 31 August 2015 (UTC) 2935:19:31, 31 August 2015 (UTC) 2910:08:59, 30 August 2015 (UTC) 2892:08:53, 30 August 2015 (UTC) 2880:WP:WikiProject LGBT studies 2212:15:56, 29 August 2015 (UTC) 2193:15:26, 29 August 2015 (UTC) 2158:14:59, 29 August 2015 (UTC) 2116:merged overview article on 2079:22:51, 28 August 2015 (UTC) 2027:16:55, 23 August 2015 (UTC) 1997:01:18, 23 August 2015 (UTC) 1956:18:24, 21 August 2015 (UTC) 1919:22:06, 15 August 2015 (UTC) 1904:19:51, 15 August 2015 (UTC) 1880:22:06, 15 August 2015 (UTC) 1865:16:14, 15 August 2015 (UTC) 762:) 14:56, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 4117: 3908:by the former Chairman of 3293:. Comments appreciated. 3147: 3059:is a redirect because its 2923:WP:Transgender terminology 1834:01:15, 4 August 2015 (UTC) 2065:to me (cf. the 1991 book 1808:22:13, 30 July 2015 (UTC) 1785:04:00, 25 July 2015 (UTC) 1763:17:52, 24 July 2015 (UTC) 1741:13:36, 23 July 2015 (UTC) 1719:05:47, 23 July 2015 (UTC) 1673:05:06, 23 July 2015 (UTC) 1648:04:12, 23 July 2015 (UTC) 1634:04:06, 23 July 2015 (UTC) 1609:23:32, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1587:21:01, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1563:18:21, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1541:17:35, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1516:16:32, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1494:15:56, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1466:15:21, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1444:15:16, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1422:15:11, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1393:16:24, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1378:15:07, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1355:10:30, 23 July 2015 (UTC) 1303:10:34, 23 July 2015 (UTC) 1281:19:47, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1262:15:19, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1205:15:07, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1183:14:49, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1155:14:48, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1137:14:29, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1110:14:27, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1096:14:21, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1080:14:14, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1068:about 110,000,000 results 1056:about 119,000,000 results 1050:13:38, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 1035:12:52, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 992:11:46, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 977:10:58, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 922:09:29, 22 July 2015 (UTC) 907:17:08, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 888:17:02, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 874:16:49, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 839:16:14, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 810:14:58, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 774:15:01, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 733:14:53, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 714:14:39, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 699:14:26, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 468:12:58, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 380:12:33, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 337:12:07, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 323:11:49, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 262:10:50, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 245:11:59, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 228:10:25, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 213:08:50, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 198:08:12, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 175:00:41, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 161:00:36, 21 July 2015 (UTC) 147:21:37, 20 July 2015 (UTC) 132:21:36, 20 July 2015 (UTC) 3934:Sorry I don't have time. 3789:Clarification needed at 2349:Kim Davis (county clerk) 1060:about 25,200,000 results 938:or words to that extent. 3383:Hello LGBT Wikimedans, 3285:Discussion notification 2597:which falls within the 1064:about 1,270,000 results 110:In articles discussing 3902:Hello. I'm working on 3740:Murder of Dwayne Jones 3733:Murder of Dwayne Jones 3569:Wikimedia LGBT+ portal 623:Campaign fundraising: 3615:Pfftallofthemaretaken 3423:Pfftallofthemaretaken 3350:a thread has opened ( 3063:has been merged into 3050:User:Czhang28/sandbox 2519:Gender Identity essay 2373:. Anyone interested? 2364:Help with an article? 587:Challenges in court: 357:. I would agree with 355:LGBT rights in Europe 42:of past discussions. 4090:Kirk Snyder (author) 4083:Kirk Snyder (author) 3131:FreeKnowledgeCreator 3036:Hitcher vs. Candyman 2738:Originally published 2609:that she explicitly 2010:. Please discuss at 3123:Lesbian non fiction 3117:Lesbian non fiction 2595:newspaper of record 2176:Lesbian non fiction 2169:Lesbian non fiction 2090:Lesbian non fiction 1927:GA review for Auden 794:"marriage equality" 299:WP:Reliable sources 282:WP:Alternative name 4062:Robert Oscar Lopez 3065:Lake View, Chicago 2748:Demers, Patricia. 2577:? This is now the 2277:Phyll Opoku-Gyimah 2181:lesbian literature 2179:single article on 2138:lesbian literature 2105:, in violation of 763: 735: 671:2009 legislation: 406:: Judging by this 4092:? Very important. 4027:Heteroflexibility 3669:reassessment page 3414: 3400:comment added by 3332: 3320:comment added by 3057:Boystown, Chicago 2325: 2313:. All the best: 2294: 2258:Save Our Children 2249:Save Our Children 1995: 1944:reassessment page 1909:do not use it. -- 1717: 1395: 1165: 1120: 753: 722: 629:Federal lawsuit: 452:marriage equality 444:Marriage equality 367:Same-sex marriage 112:same-sex marriage 103: 102: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 4108: 4024: 3991: 3986: 3876:Angela_Mansfield 3842: 3837: 3685:Ramchandra Siras 3561: 3413: 3394: 3181: 2998:Francis Schonken 2951:Francis Schonken 2902:Francis Schonken 2884:Francis Schonken 2867:redirect page). 2865:WP:TRANSGENDERED 2850:WP:TRANSGENDERED 2848:Someone created 2764: 2762: 2760: 2736: 2734: 2732: 2716: 2447:Leave me alone. 2446: 2381: 2338: 2323: 2292: 2262:on a subpage now 2231: 2228: 2227: 2204:Francis Schonken 2185:Francis Schonken 2094:reliable sources 2018: 1989: 1983: 1980: 1977: 1974: 1893: 1890: 1889: 1863: 1831: 1826: 1819: 1816: 1815: 1801: 1796: 1793: 1792: 1774: 1771: 1770: 1752: 1749: 1748: 1730: 1727: 1726: 1711: 1705: 1702: 1699: 1696: 1690: 1687: 1686: 1669: 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