Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Visual arts/Archive 2

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an overall list), I think that links should go both ways. In view of this, do you think that the page should be called "List of printmakers" or just alter the "Printmakers" page? Vis a vis your #3, why don't we see what we can do once 1 and 2 are accomplished? I am not fully up on the technical possibilities so am happy to defer to your experience on that one! Would you be interested in trying to organize 1 & 2 with me? I could do the etchers page and you could do the engravers page, or vice versa? Vis a vis the period/nationality discussion, I think that it would be helpful to have categories for both (e.g. "Nationality printmaker" and "Period printmaker"). As you point out, there may be some difficulties with nationality classifications (Flanders/Netherlands/Belgium) but I think we will also have the odd problem with periods too - what if someone overlaps a defined time period (for example if there is a "Contemporary, 1970-present" period, an artist may well have worked from 1940-1980, in which case it might be difficult to classify them)? If we went with the "List of printmakers" category name, we could use the "Printmakers" page to have two sub categorizations - by nationality and period (Nationality printmaker (as exists now) and Period printmaker (to be created)). At the top we could put the link to the "List of printmakers" page for the comprehensive list of individuals and their type of printmaking. What do you think?

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down by period and then alphabetically within each period? Then, after each artist's name could be their nationality and type of printmaking. Perhaps we could keep exact dates for the artist's own pages since it is already somewhat implied by their period classification? An example of what I propose would be: Martin Schongauer, German (Eng)... Schongauer would be found under the 15th Century categorization and alphabetically ordered. My only final query would be about the time periods chosen - is there any standard within the art community on Knowledge (XXG) for these types of breakdowns or does it tend to depend on the medium under discussion? Should there be some sort of cross linkage with a description of the periods themselves - the Baroque, Renaissance pages, etc. I suppose the only problem with such period classifications is their specificity to a given geographic region, not necessarily encompassing or applicable to all the nationalities included in the overall list (e.g. the Baroque period being specific to Europe or the Edo period to Japan). Perhaps we should stick to century classifications only - 14th century, 15th century, etc.? This way we can easily include all nationalities? What do you think?

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the appearance of a second picture, all to give information that is mostly in the first para anyway, and is much less relevant for artists than for other types of article. Obviously in the case of art and artists, what people want to see is the art. I haven't yet removed any templates, but there are plenty of articles where I could see myself doing this if one appeared. Many artist articles are just too short to have room for a template (set out as it currently is) and a second picture, and I know which I think is the most important. I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way. What the project needs is more editors who are knowledgeable to update and improve the 1911 entries, and add new ones. I'm afraid I don't see what you are proposing as an improvement. A horizontal template to add at the bottom of articles would be a step forward though.

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because if you look specifically at the time 1400-1500s you do have, three or four generations of artists, born in or near the city, training each subsequent generation, and imbibing a similar style. On the other hand, in Bologna, you had artists traveling up and down the peninsula, acquiring different styles, and producing their major works at places other than Bologna. I would prefer to refer to someone like Caravaggio as an "Italian" painter, yet Annibale Carracci could be called "Bolognese", I would not call Paolo Veronese, a strictly "veronese artist", nor artist of the veneto, and I think it is most apt to call him a "Venetian" artists, since I agree, that at the time, most venetians would not have considered themselves Italian. I think there is room for artists to be catalogued under different towns, eras, etc.

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printmaking - we would probably have to have a separate column for each type which could get quite sizeable... Alternately, if we only had one column for 'types of printmaking,' the sorting feature would only sort based on the first type of printmaking listed within that column. And, if people don't enter that in a standardized order (something that would probably be impractical to upkeep), it is unlikely that sorting by type of printmaking would be effective. Sorry to be a downer after making the initial suggestion - if anyone has an idea how to get around that problem, it would be very helpful as I still think having some type of sorting on the page would make it all a lot easier and cleaner! Any thoughts?

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Northern rather than German for the C15 for example. I also think that contemporary printmakers, who will end up being much the largest group, should perhaps be divided by continents say, and then alphabetically. I'd prefer to stick to chronological sequence pre-1700 at least - there won't be so many people that finding them would be a problem. Or they could all be alphabetic, but in that case I think the dates are important. I don't think there's a problem using slightly different arrangements for different periods. I may do some sections in different styles for comparison - or anyone else please feel free to do so, but leave edit summaries explaining what you're doing

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art if the statements are worded properly. What the disputer has proven is that the sources in the article don't stand up to trolling. The disputer seems to be a little more cooperative, but still appears to be a little too critical for an art-related topic. I'm going to re-write some of the statements in the article to match the context of the sources a little closer. I still could use a little help if anyone on this project would like to support the article. Help rewording or at least help trying to get the disputer to use

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who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at

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they can do best, which is of course fine, and what I do myself, collaborating a bit on a personal basis. I think many arts editors also prefer to do their own thing, compared with other areas - again, that goes for me as well. But a bit more overall sense of direction would be helpful in places. I haven't done big edits on a page with a really problematic infobox (the painting one seems generally slightly preferable to the artist one) but if I did a lot on say

1693: 3288:). There are in fact dozens of lists on Knowledge (XXG) that list artists by nationality, and the absesce of a list for American artists seems to me to be an oversight. There is a "category" of American Artists, but there is no structure at all to this page, outside of listing artists alphabetically -- irresepective of dates and media. After a couple of attempts to create a better structured "list" page, I've had some exchanges with administrator 1684: 147: 985:

Other, but it's not ideal. Some countries would also be tricky - Belgian/Flemish, Dutch/Netherlandish, British/English/Scots/Welsh etc - if you have headings that is limited to some extent. Reluctantly I think it might be overambitious - especially I think many people would just avoid editing it. If we had all the printmakers on I think it might make a big file-size for the page. Certainly more maintenance would be needed.

32: 1199:. Since we have no formal assessment process, I encourage editors to make an educated go at it. Discussion can always take place here or on the article's talk page. Some WikiProjects incorporate a separate comments page strictly for assessment. We're certainly nowhere near needing that apparatus. Perhaps someday we'll have a critical mass and can start incorporating more formal assessment processes. 77: 59: 3214:. While I certainly encourage anyone who is doing project-related work to add their name to the list, I generally don't see why we'd want to stop someone from doing "good faith" work whether they were listed or not. Listing yourself doesn't require any experience in the domain or any minimum number of edits, so it provides little in the way of authority for the editor, right? 87: 365:. So there is the opportunity to go around adding this stub, but even better, the opportunity to generate infoboxes for artists. The same could be done for individual works of art. I've done some work for the Film project adding infoboxes to film entries. I found it rewarding as I could readily contribute to movie articles that were beyond my usual sphere of knowledge. 515: 2941:, and likely other national overview articles. For these countries as well, the "History of ... art" articles are fairly solid, but the length and quality of the separate articles by medium (i.e. painting) really need work. These are major subjects, major foundational articles which I think should be of a high priority for the Project, no? 3188:, she removed the VA banner, to replace it with a Wikiproject Biography one (now replaced). She has hardly edited any VA articles, according to interiot. Most of the classes I have looked at seem ok, except that like most assessors, she expects articles on individual paintings to be as long as ones on artists, so undergrades these, imho. 738:

check the next section. Perhaps you're right re nationality and period for cats, though that is harder for maintenance. We could certainly start the list now & see how it looks. In the discussion referenced in the next section below there is a link to one for the Simpsons (!) which is more sophisticated than most I've seen.

2034:. I didn't actually request the subcats of Artistic techniques, but the bot operator tried to carefully select some of the subcats to include. This was one of the missteps in that process. I believe there are some others, so I will be reviewing the bot's work. Again, assistance in that regard is appreciated. 2863:

I agree to label an artist "Italian" is not as helpful as a narrower regional label that might help identify a more specific school or style, such as “Florentine.” Also, the land has been called Italy for thousands of years, but historically artists lived and worked in city-states or kingdoms within

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and many others, all lead sentences on artists described as "Venetian", Florentine" etc to "Italian", generally without adding any further reference to the city. Apart from the historical/political point of these cities being the correctly applicable states at the time (which bothers me less), it is

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I've since come to understand the reason that a non-visual art article was tagged as being a visual arts article. The problem results from there being "surrealist techniques" in visual arts, as well as "surrealist techniques" in the literary arts. I think a solution could be to break down "surrealist

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Getty seems like a solid resource to me, though I'm not up on what all the options are. Off the top of my head I'm thinking Getty with other online encyclopedias as back up. I don't trust the "google hits test" because it turns up too many wikipedia mirrors and folks are turning to wikipedia as "the"

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After a (very) quick read, the basic info and formatting seems fine. The actual content of The Reformation and Art is clearly written and seems factual (again, I only read it quickly). I'm not that informed on Counter-Reformation Art, so I can't speak of that. I will try and go over it in a few hours

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The template is also set up with a priority (often called importance) attribute, but I've commented it out for now for a few reasons. Priority assignments can be controversial and I didn't want to introduce that complexity without discussion here. Also, given how few people are actively involved with

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I had a look at both the pages and would also lean towards the layout on the User:Johnbod/Simple P list page. My only concern with the layout as it stands is that having a nationality listing under each period heading could become unwieldy. May I make a proposal that we try breaking the printmakers

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Hi Johnbod - another thing - I was looking at the "List of photographers" page again and it appears that most of the photographers on the list link to the artist's individual page but not vice versa. Considering that what we are proposing to do is essentially create a new category (as well as create

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the current infobox would be something to tackle. Of course many articles are too short, and far too much of what is there (on older stuff) is 1911 - that was my point I thought! Tinkering with infoboxes won't make them usefully longer. Personally I think that there are loads of articles where even

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The disputer has framed the argument against the sources in such a way that one would expect word-for-word quotes from the article. The sources were only meant to cite usage of the term in context. In my opinion the sources in the article can stand up to peer review from those familiar with visual

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I came across that same eye with the purple background the other day when I first started thinking about using an eye for a visual arts icon. :) And as much as I like that image, I like the hand-with-eye better for a portal and project icon because the work of the visual artist so intensely involved

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One other thought (perhaps a crazy one)! Is there any way to create a button in Knowledge (XXG) to allow people to sort a page in different ways? For example, if we entered three types of information for an artist - their nationality, period and type of printmaking - could we set it up so that the

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In fairness, we don't apply the same logic to Germans of the period, and "Italian" would have been a normal usage at the time in (say) England, especially for those not from a well-known city like Florence or Venice. To me it's an art-historical, not a national point. I've no objection to Italian

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standard art historical practice to use Venetian, Florentine, Sienese etc to describe those cities with major schools or distinct traditions of painting. This is important information, which is not being replaced - often when this is done it is not obvious from the rest of the lead. In other words,

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policy says to avoid neologism, but this is a case of no better alternative, if you can even call a phrase with two dictionary defined terms neologism. The term isn't used often, but when used in context, it makes more sense than any alternative. Terms like this are needed to bridge the gap between

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page is great in that it has the sorting ability. Do you feel comfortable going ahead with something like that for the printmakers page? I think it would work really well for country and then century of principal work. I have just realized though - the only problem might be on sorting by type of

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Uh oh! I think I am getting a bit confused - I took a look at the Simpsons structure - lists within categories and categories within lists! Phew! Let's go ahead and try to organize the printmakers though - as the more experienced Wiki contributor, would you like to set up the page a la the 'List

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Don't get me wrong, I would like to see the project become rather more collaborative. Maybe my comments above seem more negative than I meant them. There are a number of very good editors in the area, but I think at the moment there is so much that clearly needs doing that people just choose what

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As for the infobox, I can see your points there. Just not sure I entirely agree. Isn't the real problem ultimately that the articles are too short? I'm also not sure that the biography project folks wouldn't eventually get an infobox on those pages anyway. That is where the template came from after

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Anyway, my point is that a little focus and organization would go a long way toward drawing people into this project, which I think is so worthwhile and vital to the broader mission. It doesn't have to be too dramatic, since we are clearly limited in participation at present. But is anyone with me?

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Is it just me or is this project desperately in need of a swift kick in the buttocks? I know that visual arts is a woefully neglected sector of Knowledge (XXG), but it never will be anything else if we don't become more proactive about providing better entry points for getting involved. I'd like to

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proposal for an appreciation week to end on Knowledge (XXG) Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals

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We both agree (and Sparkit, let me know if I'm mischaracterizing your thoughts) that the Van Gogh image doesn't really work well at the small size and neither of us cares for the palette graphic. I'd like to find an image that will work well in both contexts and has an iconic quality to it. If you

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There is I think a sort of convention that after ??? 1400, certainly by 1500, in A de B names, B is treated as a surname, so sorted on, whilst before 1400 odd B is treated as a place of origin, so A is the name. They should never be indexed as D for "de". Obviously John from Verona hardened into

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I think that the 'just headers' is the way to go - as you did with the 17th century. Cutting down the size of the contents box would be great. My last suggestion is that perhaps we could make the 'type of printmaking' codes into its own little key at the top too - just to make it more obvious to

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Hi all, a good start to the printmakers for sure. Loads of abscent artists (i.e. Jim Dine, Kiki Smith, Robert Indiana) Also, there probably should be a Master Printer section. This well require a bit of research but it shouldn't be too difficult. 90% of the artists listed as printmakers really

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The List will be in the category & sub-heads could (?) be put in sub-categories (maybe not, technically). The List could also be put into every "See also" section, though that is a bit of work. I'd favour a single list - that reduces the problem of people being hard to categorize, as you just

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Solution: "Printmakers" has to be the way to go - even Dürer was already using 3 techniques, later artists like Picasso & Munch use a much wider range. So merge "engravers" and "etchers" into "printmakers" - leaving a category "engravers on metalwork" for the various non-printmaking engravers

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Appreciate the comments. Well, I think what I was proposing was simply an effort to draw more people to this project and, once getting them here, have some concrete things that they can actually do. Hopefully, some of those people will be the knowledgeable people you seek, who will go on and start

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I agree the project seems rather inactive (and largely focused on modern art), but I think there are already too many templates as a substitute for any real improvement in articles. I dislike the current artist infobox template myself, as it inevitably reduces the size of the main picture, delays

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suggested the possibility of dividing the 20th century into 4 periods; after some experimenting, I came to feel that dividing the century into 3 periods reflects the "generations" of artists in a much more traditionally "historical" way, in that it tends to keep artists together who are generally

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Well I know I introduced "School" into the discussion, but it is a little old-fashioned, especially as a title (it would clear up some of those EB missing articles though). You don't often see it on recent museum labels etc, though it used to be standard. How about "Florentine art" etc. I think

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Yes, I've been looking at it, & whilst it is tempting, I have to agree. It is clearly harder for people to add to - many just wouldn't bother, or would make mistakes that would I suppose make the page look wierd. As you say the techniques are a problem - I suppose you could have Wo, Eng, Et,

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4. I know that you are also keen to categorize by period and I think that is a good idea too. I definitely thinks that it makes sense to allow people to cross reference and categorize in many ways. My suggestion would be to do a period code on the "List of printmakers" page (like the eng, etch,

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or some as-of-yet-undefined project-specific criteria (which would thus require some sort of domain expertise and/or experience editing articles in that subject). I lean toward the former, but can see arguments for both. Either way, the answer would certainly inform any "policy" on who should be

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Question in a nutshell: How does one determine the most commonly used appellation for an artist, in order to determine the best article title? This really piggybacks off my recent question about sort order for Italian artists. In working on determining proper defaultsort for Italian artists, I'm

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etc. While I made an entry for School of Ferrara, and added to Siena, and considered others, it is a tricky business. Was Caravaggio a Lombard or a Roman artists? Does matters most where you were born, trained, or painted or whether you painted in a specific style? I started School of Ferrara,

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As there was no united state called "Italy" until the 19th century, I think it of the utmost importance that people are referred to by their actual nationality, i.e. as Venetian, Genoan, Florentine. Geez, I know people today who insist upon being called Welsh or Scottish or English rather than

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Yes, I'd agree with just putting the nationality on each line for the later periods - after 1700 maybe, or 1800. Except maybe for the Japanese, who (if not in their own list) logically go in their own section - maybe divided by school. For the earlier periods it's not such a problem - I've put

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4) I'm not sure what I think here. Above I think I say categorize by period, then by nationality, but maybe this is too complicated. Perhaps it's easier to do the list like that. If you do periods first, then nationality, you can be more flexible on Netherlands/Flanders/Belgium etc & have

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user could sort the page in their preferred way (kind of like the way you can sort search results on Amazon - by 'bestselling' 'cheapest' 'most popular,' etc.)? It might make this whole page a lot easier in the end (although perhaps a bit more complicated in the short term)? Any thoughts?

1606:- all subjects of Italian/Croatian/Dalmatian national passions, as you will see if you can face the talk pages (not recommended). Getty has a very appropriate methodology & is continually updated, so I think it is normally a very appropriate guide for us - much better than ghits etc. 2130:

That would work, except that on a quick look many seem to be both - there are perhaps only 2 exclusively literary, & no doubt a true Surrealist would object to that categorisation. I'm not sure what the solution is - I'm tempted to say just untag the article & let matters rest.

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lith, etc. but for period: goth, bar, ren, etc.) or perhaps we could just do a sub categories under the Printmakers category, in a separate section from, but in addition to, nationality sub headings? The only concern I have with the latter is how we then integrate with pages like

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1. Perhaps we could create a "List of printmakers" page (emulating the "List of photographers") and, instead of following the "List of photographers" categorizations by 'type of photography' (e.g. doc, fash, etc.) we could put etch, eng, lith, mezz, etc. for type of printmaking?

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If enough other members of this project feel that the article should be merged or left as a disambiguation page, I will comply. If anyone on this project understands the need for it the way I do, please help defend it against the trolling by editing the article or disputing the

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John Verona over this period, and became used by John's son Fred Verona, who was actually born in Milan.... They will be confusing whatever you do, but I think you have to do some of it manually - there is also the Getty Index, which is extremely reliable and authoritative:

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Bottom line, I prefer Venetian, Florentine, etc to Italian, when most apt - that is, born in the region or province, trained and active there. I was trying to start my entries with Name-(dates)-was a (best fit) painter of the (best fit) period, active mainly or in (places).

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By all means add the artists. In general the idea is to restrict the List to people with articles, or who soon should get them. I've no objection to master printers with articles (on individuals or print shops/studios etc) being added, maybe in a separate section as you say.

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Well, maybe someone will be willing to devote that time and energy, but my experience is that if you feel something should happen on Knowledge (XXG), you need to make it happen yourself. Since the pics that you are worried about are on the Commons and do not appear in the

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has been doing a lot of 30 second assessments of VA articles, but is not listed as a participant. Some (most?) projects only let participants assess articles for their banner. We don't have many assessments, I know, but do we have a policy on this? In at least one case,

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I think the category tree also needs sorting out into a smaller number of initial sub-categories: Art world/business, Applied & decorative arts - that sort of thing. Printmaking categories are especially confusing & I am thinking about a proposal to address that.

255:. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are 2614:

It is significant historical information and needs to stay in the articles - category notation is not sufficient. Especially with Florence, but also if we have the info about Turin, it needs to stay, too. I bet there's a policy about this already if one could find it.

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Should I move the article in those cases? Is the Getty Index the right source to dictate that? Should I be cross-referencing with other sources such as Grove Art? What if there's a conflict there? Is there a place for something as simplistic as number of Google hits?

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3) Yes if this is technically possible - I'm not sure if it is. But it would not be a huge amount of work to check & clear them out every so often. I'm not sure I would want to delete the categories as "Printmakers" would not seem an obvious alternative to many

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article. I wasn't planning to change that, as schools rather than dates seems to be the primary classification (?) & they are obviously all the same technique & country. I don't have any "modern" Japanese printmakers on the list as yet though.

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Thus, my instinct is to employ reliable outside sources to make these determinations. But I want to make sure that I'm not overlooking some Knowledge (XXG) guideline or a previous discussion on this topic, before I go broadly applying this logic.

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I avoided any sort of links to "Southeast Asian art" or "Southeast Asian lacquerware" as being too broad - if anyone is interested in starting articles on lacquer or other arts specific to any particular countries I am sure it would be most

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On linking to Gothic art etc, printmakers is a sub-category of "Category:Printmaking", so you could just link to (ie categorize as) that. But if the first sub-categories were periods, articles of the same period could go straight to

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3. Once 1 and 2 were accomplished, we could then make the "Etchers" and "Engravers" category pages automatically redirect to "List of Printmakers" or "Printmakers" in case anybody decides to branch out under those sub-headings again.

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Among the concerns are that the quantity of artists could get out of hand, not only because of "non-notable entries," but also because the term "artist" can be seen as very broad. I would like to create a page simply dedicated to

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Also, I've been doing some work on the portal page. I don't really care for the color scheme, but am not sure I have any ideas for improvement. Any one else feel the same way about the color scheme? If you're feeling bold, go to

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someone with limited knowledge can make improvements using a few basic books, but I understand that people are rightly reluctant to trim 1911 verbiage without putting content in its place, and this can require more knowledge.

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where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention.

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Or is it largely better to avoid moving pages (assuming I take care of double redirects and the like), even if a reliable source like the Getty Index indicates a different name is preferred? What would be your strategy?

623:- then by nationality. Or maybe that should be a separate sub-categorization of "printmakers"? It would also be good to have lists, for more detail on which techniques artists mainly used - something for later perhaps. 1943: 210:

Does this project have a template to put at the top of articles that should be a part of this project? I have created a few articles that are related to this project. 2 are of particular interest and import here

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new articles and that sort of thing. On the other hand, some people are just not going to be authors of original content, but they want to participate and contribute. And I think there ARE tasks for these people.

2930:... Please help in whatever way you can. We don't need massive opuses on each period or style or school, but a good solid summary with a link to the main article for each of these things would be wonderful. 586:

Only two specific techniques have headings, and national sub-cats are very incomplete - no "German etchers" for example. Nothing at all for lithography, woodcut, mezzotint, any of the modern techniques etc

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no one would respond to it on the proximent talk page and since the wikipedia article on the history of nude depictions falls under this project I decided to bring this issue over to this discussion board.

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and a contributor recommended that I could mention it here. I have tried to find any similar articles (with a help of couple of other editors) but I'd appreciate if others could have a look at the lists. -

1298:, but he's currently sorted in Knowledge (XXG) under Sarto. (Update: Actually, I was wrong about this - sorted as Sarto in Grove Art. Strange, since he's referred to as del Sarto throughout the article). 1959: 2236:

disputor strategy is to accuse POV of being synthesis and original research. If this is allowed, other important art-related articles on the wikipedia may be reduced to just a bibliography or deleted.

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as well as a synonym for the individual forms of image development. Readers often assume that disambiguated articles are mutually exclusive uses of a term, which is not the case with umbrella terms.

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under Spinello will look wrong and, given the 'to-do' task of sorting artists by last name, he/she will be inclined to 'fix' it. Not sure how one prevents and/or polices that. How would you proceed?

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people accessing the page? Then, do you want to launch the page and I can start helping to put printmakers on! (Or should I do this while it is in in the Sandbox?) Let me know how I can help!

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and is scrutinizing the article as if it is describing natural science. Since art, by nature, relies on POV and interpretation, it only makes sense that art-related wikipedia articles are mostly

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noticing that the Getty Index will have an altogether different preferred name (or a variation in spelling) for that artist from the one being used as the title of the Knowledge (XXG) article.

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as a category to those artists who are already categorized by "Nationality etcher." Ultimately, my rational for adding more individuals to the 'Etchers' category was an attempt to emulate the

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Thanks. I only just discovered DEFAULTSORT myself. Very handy. I think that in cases where we want to do an unusual sort by "first name," the DEFAULTSORT may be enough to demonstrate intent.

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I would like to create a simple "List of American Artists" page. In the past, administrators have deleted attempts to maintain such a page, due to lack of structure. (see the discussion at:

834:- comments please! I'm not sure about the layout myself, although I do think a chronological approach is right. There is a discussion of the idea two sections up. I also started this one: 2390: 1080: 2827:

I'd agree with that - we don't have to use it where we don't need to. But, for example, although Leonardo was an Italian artist, it's fair to say his followers formed a Milanese school.

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True Italy did not exist as such before the late 19th century. I always refer to artists by their city state name, especially if that same city is where most of their work can be found.

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It's not likely that visual artists will use the term to describe what they do, but it is likely that clients or business administrators will use it to describe visual art. The term is "

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British, or Catalonian instead of Spanish. Renaissance artists would have far more likely associated themselves with their city-state/kingdom than with some abstract notion of "Italy".

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It seems like you might have a valid concern there, but I'm not sure this is the avenue to do something about it. I'm not sure what is though, not being as familiar with the Commons.

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I have argued in various cases for going with Getty - I've not yet seen one where I would prefer any other title to their preferred name, though of course it might be possible. See

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the land of Italy, such as Florence or Venice, often in more than one. It helps indicate all the towns in which an artist worked to help identify his backround/influence(s)/etc.

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The division is highly artificial - after about 1540 almost all engravers did etching as well, & most etchers did some engraving - in both cases very often on the same plate.

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Hi Johnbod - Thanks for your comment! I am fairly new as a Knowledge (XXG) contributor so am particularly appreciative of any input. I understand your hesitation about adding

2601:

it should be changed to "Italian painter from Florence" or "of the Florentine school". I don't really mind if the city is say Turin, with no strong local school of painting.

1511:

Voting for Picture of the Year (the final) takes place from 17 Feb to 28 Feb (inclusive). The winners will be announced on 3 March after complete verification of history logs.

2452:

I am concerned about several photos that I believe consitute Child Pornography. I believe that these photos should be removed to avoid potential legal trouble for wikipedia. -

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I'm putting this article at the mercy of this project and project members. There is a rare term used to describe visual art with a more universal meaning that another user is

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I also introduced a cat attribute. If applying the project template to a cat (i.e., cat=yes), different verbiage will appear and there is no need to set a class attribute.

1196: 2071:. I'm not sure if this is a case of a bot gone wild or a human gone wild. A human may have considered "cut-up technique" to be art-like. But I don't think it really is. 1376:

To help ensure that someone doesn't change the category sort when you've set it up in an unconventional way, add a comment to the code, right above the categories. See

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Completely reconsider the organization of the project page. It leaves me with absolutely no clue as to what to do to help other than add my name to a participants list.

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PS: Quite often the name in the "home" language of the artist is different from the "most commonly used term in English" if that is still the WP guideline quote. See

842:

artists, but they should probably either have their own list of go here. There are 35 pages in the "Ukiyo-e artists" category, plus 24 in the "Japanese printmakers".

669:

2. We could simultaneously switch all nationality categorizations to "Nationality printmaker" instead of the current "Nationality etcher" or "Nationality engraver"

654:. Also, I think that it is a good idea to be able to look up etchers generally as a group and not just by nationality. However, after having read your remarks at 2213: 2526:

entry, it doesn't seem to fall within the scope of this project, although I certainly understand why you came here. My only advice is to be bold. Buona fortuna!

1963: 1789:

I concur! I'm going to test it in other contexts. Sparkit, that looks like the original pic. Do you anticipate finding a sharper, yet similarly suitable image?

1023:). I will tidy up the headings, on the C17 model, & do the key etc, unless anyone beats me to it. We should be able to take it public this week. Thanks, 684:

I hope that my description and ideas are comprehensibly put - if not, please bear with this newcomer! If it is, it would be fantastic to hear your thoughts!

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All the artists I intend to list initially are already represented in individual pages. Also, the list would be divided up into specific periods, as follows:

2243:, but so can the pairing of any other two words. It's unlikely that a secondary source has defined the term because its definition in context is obvious. The 1019:

Agreed re key - I meant to do that. I think it should be a bit more populated before it hits the mainspace, but please anybody add names to it (link again:

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No question, it's mistagged. I'm not clear how the bot got there. I'll fix it. Thanks for pointing it out. Looks like I'll have some follow-up work to do.

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I've never found a template specific to images of art, so I've made one. If there's one somewhere else, please let me know, so's we don't have multiples.

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Create some doable tasks for folks who might not have tons of time to devote (including the taks of adding the template from #1 to appropriate articles).

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being used as well; I think with say Venetian or Florentine it's not essential to add it for understanding, but I suppose I could be wrong on that!

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And regardless of why someone comes here, what they get right now is a confusing mess that leaves you with no idea of how to meaningfully participate.

288: 252: 655: 163: 109: 17: 3245: 1740:– telling us, among other things, that it's an ancient symbol. The image file is kinda fuzzy, but if we like this symbol, I can make a sharper one. 1195:

project template, most notably introducing a class attribute. Class can be set to one of these parameters: FA, A, GA, B, Start or Stub, based on

1983:

Absolutely. Folks, what we have here is a bot gone wild. I have to chat with the bot's operator and see what happened. If you look at the bot's

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I'm looking for input from those interested. I can put up the page as described above at any time. I've created a talk page for this issue at:

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Doh! I originally uploaded my smaller test file. It's replaced with a bigger one now. You might have to refresh your cache to see the new one.

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That is the original pic. I've since created and uploaded one that's a little sharper. I'll probably fiddle with it some more, but here it is.

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assessing articles. I'm just glad someone is taking the time and energy to do initial assessments. They are just a starting point, after all.

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It does. Immensely. I'd forgotten all about the Getty Index, which has exactly the kind of authority behind it that I'm looking for. Cheers.

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Ok - I will start it in my sandpit, or one off here, but will post link here when it's started. Not sure when that will be (not very long)

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As an example, Michelangelo and Leonardo da Vinci were Italian artists. Pontormo, Andrea del Sarto, and Bronzino were Florentine artists.

2088:

It's categorised as a "surrealist technique" or something, which is a sub-cat of "artistic techniques", which is a Visual arts category.

527: 256: 248: 100: 64: 2883: 1984: 1493: 1449: 395:), which would, if people started using it, give a much better idea of who is actually active in this area than you get from this page. 2369: 2365: 2198: 1900:

I would like that some on from this project review the article in question and estimate wether is is within the scope of the project.

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tagged with that template. There are hundreds of other articles that could fall under this umbrella (e.g., all of the artist entries).

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That's quite a list! I added some links and comments. Is this the start of a comprehensive list of missing visual arts articles? --

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Thanks for your help. I have not come across any lacquerware articles... wow. Well, I'll leave myself a note to start articles on

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From an organization standpoint, I sometimes wonder if one couldn't organize some groups under the category heading, for example

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Add names in alphabetical order, and please include biographical dates and the media most notably associated with each artist.

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I've merged them, though it could use more scrutiny. BTW: Is there a lacquerware article somewhere? Everything seems to link to

2194: 321: 39: 2152: 1490: 1446: 967: 963: 920: 764: 2326:. If you haven't checked out the portal lately, I invite you to do so and, if you're so inclined, add your comments to the 1892:. I fail to see how this man is considered a visual artist. His primary creation was a dossier based on newspaper clipings 3452: 3428: 2415:

article could use some improvement, and it seems an important high-level article especially in the light that the portal (

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Well, it is as comprehensive as I can make it. Unfortunately I don't think I'm qualified to write about all of these -

1987:, you'll see a lot of false hits, none of which I can identify as falling into any of the requested cats or subcats: ( 1226: 1834:

Loves it! Wish it would scale a little better for the portal page though. Anything that can be done toward that end?

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for a rather unexpected example (building not artist obviously) that is currently under discussion for a name move.

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template. We really need more people involved in the good work we're doing here and this is a key recruiting tool.

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Sorry. Just got carried away. I was trying to avoid mentioning names while explaining the nature of the disputes.

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but decided the format was too complicated for a fluid list. At the moment I haven't put headings in for Japanese

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I'm not aquainted with common's either I was hoping that someone over here might be able to handle this for me. -

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If there is a talk page with multiple WikiProject banners and it seems to be out of control, note that there's a

251:. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to 1992: 1688: 3459: 3440: 3273: 3259: 3236: 3205: 3192: 3165: 3148: 3135: 3121: 3094: 3051: 2991: 2966: 2948: 2893: 2868: 2842: 2831: 2819: 2804: 2797: 2773: 2722: 2699: 2678: 2655: 2637: 2623: 2608: 2573: 2556: 2543: 2534: 2508: 2499: 2489: 2470: 2456: 2438: 2397: 2334: 2308: 2291: 2278: 2264: 2165: 2135: 2117: 2092: 2075: 2055: 2038: 2007: 1970: 1917: 1907: 1865: 1838: 1812: 1793: 1780: 1765: 1744: 1726: 1712: 1665: 1645: 1629: 1610: 1586: 1560: 1551: 1541: 1522: 1496: 1476: 1463: 1452: 1426: 1413: 1365: 1348: 1332: 1276: 1265: 1240: 1175: 1159: 1133: 1116: 1106: 1090: 1073: 1053: 1039: 1027: 1010: 999: 975: 955: 944: 927: 902: 887: 871: 857: 846: 820: 801: 771: 742: 729: 716: 690: 640: 630: 546: 487: 467: 409: 373: 296: 272: 239: 223: 45: 1144: 1129:

I seem to be on a roll with these, as I explore some of the top level categories. Your input is appreciated.

966:. I think that the layout of the first is quite similar to Johnbod's sandbox prototype and looks good. The 336:

Make a basic WikiProject Visual Arts template and get, at the very least, all of the current articles in the

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article, but the umbrella term has a somewhat broader meaning than just the artistic usage. If you read the

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their hands and eyes, as well as the eyes of the viewer. The story that goes with the symbol is cool, too –

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There are many editors listed amongst the participants who are doing a lot less actual participating than

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That said, I can let it go, but then what do you do about all the artists that do have infoboxes already?

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I understand your concerns. In the end, I hope your concerns are about my edits, not about membership. -

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rigid computer science language and artistic language. Otherwise, people just assume that visual art and

951:

I've just seen "Liste de graveurs français" on the French Wiki - a similar solution (not with sorting).

283: 3248:, can maybe someone fix this? I was thinking of a similar solution to the one of Wikiproject Films (see 3036: 2911: 2340: 1310: 651: 306: 216: 108:

on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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If you are working on an article within the scope of this project, I heartily encourage you to add the

2569:

The 3 Marconi's on the main page (& in his sub-cat) should certainly go, & maybe some Galdis.

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this project, I'm not sure we really need to devote attention to assigning priorities at this point.

1189: 924: 568: 337: 2003:). Something is amiss. Any help identifying what categories were hit in error would be appreciated. 1397:

article, using DEFAULTSORT, you only have to set the sorting parameter once, not with each category.

3292:, who suggested that a better structured list could be approved, and that I should seek input from 3028: 2786: 2305: 2288: 2261: 2027: 1622: 1302: 1020: 831: 3399: 3266: 3229: 3114: 3106: 2549: 2527: 2482: 2463: 2416: 2394: 2386: 2331: 2323: 2064: 2035: 2004: 1914: 1885: 1835: 1790: 1762: 1723: 1709: 1583: 1423: 1362: 1329: 1306: 1237: 1130: 1103: 1087: 760: 659: 560: 543: 464: 370: 293: 92: 2187: 2176: 244: 1692: 3358: 3131: 3090: 2962: 2934: 2919: 2816: 2790: 2785:

they should have their own articles, with links strategically placed at the ones you mention,

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That's one busy bot. :) We've got quite a pile of articles flagged now. Thanks Planetneutral!

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The major question that arises here though is whether we are assessing articles based on the

2983:, though I'm not sure how much I'll manage to do... I've also been meaning to create one for 1250:

Discussion is going on about establishing notability guidelines for artists and/or painters.

789:

collaborated with a master printer who executed the actual printing and execution of the work

647: 357:}} template that can be placed on the discussion page of any artist who does not yet have an 3347: 2907: 2903: 2589: 2427: 2068: 1325: 1314: 1294:. I have enough background in this area to know that he's commonly referred to as del Sarto 1291: 1152: 564: 236: 2271: 2244: 2229: 310: 3354: 3256: 3202: 2938: 2539:

I've decided to contact an administrator for further help but thank you for your advice. -

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is hardly the largest, but some tlc from Caravaggisti is making it quite a good length.

751:

of photographers' and then I will jump in to help reclassify everything!? The preceding

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see a few things happen, largely in emulation of some of the more successful projects:

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exists, maybe others. I can't get the wildcard to work on a search, for some reason.

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Hi, can someone knowledgable please have a look over this new article by a newcomer:

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I think this lies some way ahead technically - I've not seen anything like it on WP.

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Venetian etc as sub-heads for the earlier Italian periods, which would all be useful.

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for pointing out our dreadful lack of coverage of lacquers. I've begun something at

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needs your help! While a number of individual artists have pretty solid articles,

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Seems to me sculpture is also included, so "Venetian painting" would be too narrow.

2736: 2719: 2692: 2671: 2652: 2616: 2605: 2570: 2449: 2431: 2160: 2132: 2089: 2050: 1967: 1904: 1889: 1860: 1807: 1777: 1741: 1675: 1662: 1642: 1626: 1607: 1548: 1519: 1473: 1405: 1345: 1257: 1070: 1036: 1024: 996: 952: 941: 916: 899: 868: 843: 798: 781: 739: 713: 637: 627: 484: 406: 3070: 995:, which I think is better - it certainly cuts the size of the contents box down. 3296:. I've written out a page, and am outlining my ideas here, and requesting input. 2186:

disputor nominated it for AfD, and the result was to "keep". The user then used

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Thanks for the quick response, then Can I asume that theese are also mistagged:

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Cool. Just be careful with the ukiyo-e -- not every ukiyo-e painter did prints.

162:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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Also, I recently stumbled across a new wiki magic word for category sorting -

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Economic and human costs of the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy

600:

Personally I would like a sub-division by of "printmakers" by periods, say:

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International reactions to the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy

479: 2419:) will soon reach featured status and the first link on the portal page is 574:"Printmakers" is a sub-category of "Printmaking", but the others are not. 361:

for their entry. Adding this stub to the talk page adds the article to the

1279:

and am wondering how some of these artists should be sorted. Artists like

962:

I have just taken a look at the "Liste de graveurs français" and also the

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I'll take a look and see if I can tweak the banner template accordingly.

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I went ahead and created a project template: {{WikiProject Visual arts}}

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Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of

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Discussion about establishing notability guidelines for artists/painters

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needs to be merged in.) Most of the related overview articles, such as

1065: 839: 1309:, who is sorted as 'Giovanni da Milano' by the same source. Same with 3327: 1944:

List of newspapers that reprinted Jyllands-Posten's Muhammad cartoons

662:

might be a superior catch-all category. I have several suggestions:

317:. Note I have done much editing since some of the current comments. 2584:

Some editors, notably Attilios, have been gradually changing, as at

1708:

and try something different. I'll be playing in my sandbox. Cheers,

1064:

At the moment there is just a reference to the partial lists at the

503:

I also created a project userbox: {{User WikiProject Visual arts}}

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are sorted by their commonly used first name, which makes sense.

1171:

Please post to and watchlist the above as a central notice board.

581:

Some people are in "printmakers", some in "engravers" or "etchers"

556:

This is not at all good at the moment. The current scheme(s) are:

2710:

Venetian, Neapolitan, Roman certainly. Shouldn't they really be

1678:

and I had a brief discussion today about the images used for the

1472:

I've done a bit on it - I did'nt think it was very high quality

656:

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Visual_arts#Printmaking_Categorization

2349:

Knowledge (XXG):Featured article candidates/Campbell's Soup Cans

1897: 1960:

Islamist demonstration outside Danish Embassy in London in 2006

1761:

page. Yes, a sharper version of that image would be excellent.

3286:

Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/List of American artists

3086:

We can at least cobble together a stub to get things rolling.

2450:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/Category:Vintage_nude_photographs

811:

Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/List of American artists

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An example of how the list would appear would be as follows:

2987:(painting with lacquer). Thanks for reminding me about that. 1952:

Timeline of the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy

1940:

Opinions on the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy

1317:. Impossible to anticipate without the requisite background. 1197:

Knowledge (XXG):Version_1.0_Editorial_Team/Assessment#Grades

3127:

Thanks for all your work driving the portal to featuredom!

1718:

A few options for the portal/template image are on display

1324:

One concern I have is that, to the average person, sorting

1305:, who is sorted as 'Castagno, Andrea del' by Grove Art. Or 1232:

template you can use to consolidate them. See it in use on

1081:

Knowledge (XXG):Articles_for_deletion/Jørgen_Mahler_Elbang

2224:

disputor is taking advantage of the fact that art is not

830:

I have started a draft one at - (now out of Sandbox at:)

38:

This page does not require a rating on Knowledge (XXG)'s

3326:" known for the creation of artworks that are primarily 2889:

Comment invited on the colour choice for this template.

1166:

Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Deletion sorting/Visual arts

991:

I've changed parts of the sandbox list from sections to

2448:

In the Vintage Nude Photographs section on wikicommons

1641:

reference - despite all the craziness on wikipedia :).

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I'm open to suggestions for improvement. More to come!

230:

Knowledge (XXG):Featured article review/Diego Velázquez

3161:

Hip, Hip, Hooray! Hip, Hip, Hooray! Hip, Hip, Hooray!

2182:

as if there is some harm in it being an article. The

346:

Get some style/article formatting guidelines in place.

1948:

Descriptions of the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons

1489:

Thanks guys. That's a fast wikiproject for once. :-)

1393:. It's formatted like a template. For example in the 391:

Also a new articles page for the project (like this:

3322:

This is a list of historically recognized American "

3077:

http://www.art-antiques.ch/resource/Lacquerware.html

1097:

Knowledge (XXG):Articles_for_deletion/Simon_Mitchell

393:

Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Middle Ages/New Articles

104:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 2765:Also, "School of Florence" or "Florentine School"? 1700:have any thoughts on a better image, please share. 235:Relevant featured article being reviewed. Thanks. 2389:is now a featured portal candidate. Your input on 636:copied from my talk page; I'll respond tomorrow 3422:considered to be contemporaries of one another. 3065:http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/elac/hd_elac.htm 2318:Just thought I'd let you know that I requested a 2201:page define the term, but the term is used as an 1252:Notability (people)/Wikipedia:Notabilty (artists) 3105:Thought you might be interested to see that the 2735:Maybe they would work better if integrated into 1658:A new proposal for assessing artist notability: 1124:Knowledge (XXG):Articles_for_deletion/Karl_Kenda 3071:http://www.kyohaku.go.jp/eng/dictio/shikki.html 2691:. Sienese and Bolganese already exist. Others? 2428:Talk:Visual_arts#Plan_of_Action_for_Improvement 1757:I made almost exactly the same comments on the 1143:Three Polish artists were nominated yesterday: 2739:? Just a thought. Or "Schools of Italian art"? 2274:, such as referring to other users as trolls. 2156:. To see how it looks on an image page, go to 219:. How do I affiliate them with this project? 2958:which barely touches on the artistic aspect. 2024:Category:Jyllands-Posten cartoons controversy 1964:Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy 363:Category:Articles that need an artist infobox 8: 2022:OK, the above articles were tagged, because 18:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Visual arts 3244:Currently, Category-class articles stay in 2426:Discussion about the article is ongoing at 2108:"surrealist techniques in the visual arts," 1671:Portal/template image and portal in general 2714:etc, on usual Wiki-basis, with redirects? 1888:tagged this article to be a visual artist 940:OK thanks - that would be the ideal then 53: 2604:Can we agree a Project policy on this? 2347:Add comments in support or opposition at 1534:couple of lists of missing topics in arts 696:Ok; 1) & 2) I absolutely agree about. 289:User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week 31: 29: 3246:Category:Unassessed visual arts articles 2548:A great idea. (Wish I'd thought of it!) 2381:Having responded to the comments of the 2197:". I would be OK with just letting the 3294:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Visual arts 2666:We need articles that are missing like 559:Under "artists" - "artists by medium": 118:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Visual arts 55: 2580:"Italian" or "Florentine" etc artist ? 2216:you will see the struggle against the 2208:I considered including it in the main 2112:"surrealist techniques in literature." 1896:. This he made together with another 1507:wikicommons picture of the year voting 1445:. May need some streamlining. Thanks! 1112:This article has been speedy-deleted. 160:Do not edit the contents of this page. 2933:The same really ought to be done for 2339: 1654:Proposed artist notability guidelines 1035:Now on mainspace - all help welcome. 7: 2190:disruptive editing to make a point. 2171:Article at the mercy of this project 1660:Knowledge (XXG):Notability (artists) 619:Contemporary (active from say 1970) 509: 3057:Thanks! I found another one, too - 2884:Template talk:Young British Artists 1401:{{DEFAULTSORT:Braun, Maurice}} ] ] 44:It is of interest to the following 3474:Project-Class visual arts articles 3451:Please continue the discussion at 3225:global 1.0 criteria for assessment 2199:image development (disambiguation) 2158:Image:Masson automatic drawing.jpg 1102:Again, your input is appreciated. 353:For example, I just developed a {{ 24: 3374:American Artists born before 1800 3250:Category:Film articles by quality 2106:techniques" into two categories: 1296:and that's confirmed by Grove Art 597:that are also in that category. 98:This page is within the scope of 3479:WikiProject Visual arts articles 3311:The header would be as follows: 3021:is currently just a redirect to 1815: 1691: 1682: 1515:Commons:Picture of the Year/2006 1271:Default sort for Italian artists 836:User:Johnbod/List of printmakers 767:) 04:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC). 513: 145: 121:Template:WikiProject Visual arts 85: 75: 57: 30: 3389:American Artists born 1900–1929 3382:American Artists born 1960–1989 3380:American Artists born 1930–1959 3378:American Artists born 1900–1929 3376:American Artists born 1800–1899 2260:overly-scrutinizing arguments. 2239:The term can easily be called 2393:would be appreciated. Cheers. 2153:Template:Image information art 1185:I've made a few tweaks to the 968:Ranked list of Dutch provinces 964:Ranked list of Dutch provinces 921:Ranked list of Dutch provinces 301: 1: 3453:Talk:List_of_American_artists 3429:Talk:List_of_American_artists 3061:. And some online resources: 2910:is sorely lacking. (firstly, 1727:04:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC) 1713:03:23, 27 February 2007 (UTC) 1706:Portal:Visual_arts/box-header 1666:05:44, 26 February 2007 (UTC) 1646:02:00, 25 February 2007 (UTC) 1630:01:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC) 1611:23:23, 24 February 2007 (UTC) 1587:22:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC) 1561:13:34, 24 February 2007 (UTC) 1552:23:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC) 1542:09:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC) 1523:14:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC) 1497:19:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 1477:17:40, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 1464:17:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 1453:16:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 1427:06:57, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 1414:06:49, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 1366:06:03, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 1349:05:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 1333:05:20, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 1301:Defying consistency, we have 1266:17:08, 17 February 2007 (UTC) 1241:17:03, 17 February 2007 (UTC) 1176:01:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC) 1160:23:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC) 1134:20:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC) 1117:00:33, 17 February 2007 (UTC) 1107:03:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC) 1091:18:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC) 1086:Would appreciate your input. 1040:03:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC) 1028:17:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC) 1011:17:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC) 1000:09:55, 12 February 2007 (UTC) 976:04:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC) 297:16:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC) 273:13:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC) 240:02:36, 19 December 2006 (UTC) 112:and see a list of open tasks. 2524:History of erotic depictions 2032:Category:Artistic techniques 1989:Category:Artistic techniques 1776:I like the new banner pic! 956:19:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC) 945:13:50, 8 February 2007 (UTC) 928:13:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC) 903:16:49, 6 February 2007 (UTC) 888:05:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC) 872:16:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC) 858:05:19, 6 February 2007 (UTC) 847:22:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC) 821:00:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC) 772:04:04, 3 February 2007 (UTC) 743:02:31, 3 February 2007 (UTC) 730:20:35, 2 February 2007 (UTC) 717:04:58, 2 February 2007 (UTC) 691:02:43, 1 February 2007 (UTC) 641:04:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC) 631:17:24, 27 January 2007 (UTC) 547:04:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC) 488:20:31, 25 January 2007 (UTC) 468:20:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC) 410:17:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC) 374:04:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC) 322:17:30, 10 January 2007 (UTC) 224:15:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC) 206:WikiProject Visual arts Tags 2146:New template for art images 1966:Regards and happy editing - 826:Sandbox List of Printmakers 3495: 3166:19:29, 24 March 2007 (UTC) 3149:19:18, 24 March 2007 (UTC) 3136:16:33, 24 March 2007 (UTC) 3122:08:37, 23 March 2007 (UTC) 3095:21:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC) 3052:21:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC) 2992:14:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC) 2967:14:06, 22 March 2007 (UTC) 2949:11:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC) 2894:05:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC) 2843:16:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC) 2832:04:18, 17 March 2007 (UTC) 2820:21:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC) 2798:17:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC) 2774:16:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC) 2723:16:06, 16 March 2007 (UTC) 2700:15:47, 16 March 2007 (UTC) 2679:15:23, 16 March 2007 (UTC) 2656:14:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC) 2638:14:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC) 2624:13:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC) 2609:12:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC) 2574:03:48, 12 March 2007 (UTC) 2557:02:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC) 2544:02:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC) 2535:02:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC) 2509:02:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC) 2500:02:18, 12 March 2007 (UTC) 2490:02:17, 12 March 2007 (UTC) 2471:02:15, 12 March 2007 (UTC) 2457:02:06, 12 March 2007 (UTC) 2439:16:09, 10 March 2007 (UTC) 2398:05:06, 10 March 2007 (UTC) 1459:and give it a close read. 802:16:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC) 552:Printmaking Categorization 539: 311:featured article candidate 278:Knowledge (XXG) Day Awards 259:. Reviewers' concerns are 3460:01:49, 3 April 2007 (UTC) 3455:to keep it in one place. 3441:00:27, 3 April 2007 (UTC) 3402:(1902-1984), photographer 3274:15:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC) 3260:14:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC) 3237:15:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC) 3206:12:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC) 3193:11:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC) 3025:, and that's gotta change 2869:21:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC) 2377:Featured portal candidate 2370:22:55, 8 March 2007 (UTC) 2335:04:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC) 2309:21:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC) 2292:04:43, 6 March 2007 (UTC) 2279:02:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC) 2265:23:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC) 2166:15:47, 4 March 2007 (UTC) 2136:15:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC) 2118:15:25, 7 March 2007 (UTC) 2093:14:30, 7 March 2007 (UTC) 2076:22:55, 3 March 2007 (UTC) 2067:tagged this article too: 2056:22:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC) 2039:21:04, 3 March 2007 (UTC) 2026:is listed as a subcat of 2008:21:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC) 2001:Category:American artists 1971:20:45, 3 March 2007 (UTC) 1918:20:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC) 1908:20:26, 3 March 2007 (UTC) 1866:23:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC) 1839:23:15, 3 March 2007 (UTC) 1813:22:45, 3 March 2007 (UTC) 1794:21:23, 3 March 2007 (UTC) 1781:21:17, 3 March 2007 (UTC) 1766:11:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC) 1745:05:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC) 1569:Artist naming conventions 1074:21:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC) 1054:09:41, 3 March 2007 (UTC) 915:No this is possible, see 302:Campbell's Soup Can's FAC 247:has been nominated for a 70: 52: 3318:LIST of AMERICAN ARTISTS 3280:List of American Artists 2805:Category:Tuscan painters 1993:Category:Italian artists 1689:Portal:Visual arts/Intro 1277:Category:Tuscan painters 3308:," as described below. 3073:- Kyoto National Museum 2030:, which is a subcat of 1997:Category:French artists 1759:Portal talk:Visual arts 1443:The Reformation and Art 1436:The Reformation and Art 1275:I've been working with 1145:Magdalena Trzebiatowska 529:WikiProject Visual arts 359:Template:Infobox Artist 249:featured article review 101:WikiProject Visual arts 3405:Walter Inglis Anderson 2916:History of Chinese art 2302:constructive criticism 1234:Talk:Benvenuto_Cellini 571:- all by nationality. 3067:- Metropolitin Museum 2912:Chinese Painting Arts 2477:Maybe start with the 2356:comment was added by 2250:graphic visualization 1880:Article tagged by BOT 1311:Piero della Francesca 755:comment was added by 712:Complicated stuff! 652:List of photographers 613:18th and 19th century 577:Problems with this: 158:of past discussions. 3407:(1903-1965), painter 3033:Japanese lacquerware 3012:Ryukyuan lacquerware 2924:Chinese architecture 2341:Campbell's Soup Cans 1928:Islamisk Trossamfund 1894:Akkari-Laban dossier 1680:Template:Visual arts 658:, it does seem that 500:It generates this: 355:needs artist infobox 338:Category:visual arts 307:Campbell's Soup Cans 217:Campbell's Soup Cans 124:visual arts articles 3330:in nature, such as 3029:Chinese lacquerware 2981:Okinawan laquerware 2977:Japanese laquerware 2787:Italian Renaissance 2479:deletion guidelines 2028:Category:Caricature 1344:. Hope this helps 1303:Andrea del Castagno 1021:List of Printmakers 832:List of Printmakers 626:Thoughts anyone? 3400:Ansel Easton Adams 3107:Portal:Visual arts 3037:Korean lacquerware 2687:I made a stub for 2417:Portal:Visual arts 2387:Portal:Visual arts 2324:Visual arts portal 2320:portal peer review 2314:Portal peer review 2252:are incompatible. 2214:archived talk page 2065:User:Alphachimpbot 1886:User:Alphachimpbot 1532:Greetings. I have 1378:Hishikawa Moronobu 1307:Giovanni da Milano 1227:WikiProjectBanners 816:This needs input. 313:. Leave comments 93:Visual arts portal 40:content assessment 3415:... and so forth 3412:(1929-), painter 3359:experimental film 3271: 3234: 3133: 3119: 3092: 3039:should be created 2964: 2935:Japanese painting 2920:Chinese porcelain 2791:School of Ferrara 2771: 2716:School of Ferrara 2712:Venetian painting 2697: 2689:Florentine School 2676: 2668:Florentine School 2621: 2554: 2532: 2487: 2468: 2436: 2373: 2195:Image development 2180:over-scrutinizing 2164: 2054: 1864: 1811: 1285:Giotto di Bondone 1281:Leonardo da Vinci 923:for an example -- 536: 535: 213:Haystacks (Monet) 203: 202: 170: 169: 164:current talk page 140: 139: 136: 135: 132: 131: 3486: 3348:installation art 3270: 3233: 3132: 3118: 3091: 2963: 2908:Chinese painting 2904:Chinese painting 2899:Chinese painting 2770: 2696: 2675: 2620: 2590:Rosso Fiorentino 2553: 2531: 2486: 2467: 2435: 2351: 2304:should suffice. 2272:personal attacks 2163: 2069:Cut-up technique 2053: 1863: 1819: 1810: 1742: 1695: 1686: 1663: 1643: 1549: 1520: 1326:Spinello Aretino 1315:Rosso Fiorentino 1292:Andrea del Sarto 1231: 1225: 1218: 1212: 1194: 1188: 1181:Project template 1153:Katarzyna Kozyra 925:Donar Reiskoffer 530: 524: 517: 510: 493:A few new things 253:featured quality 184: 172: 171: 149: 148: 142: 126: 125: 122: 119: 116: 95: 90: 89: 79: 72: 71: 61: 54: 35: 34: 33: 26: 3494: 3493: 3489: 3488: 3487: 3485: 3484: 3483: 3464: 3463: 3449: 3355:performance art 3282: 3178: 3103: 3006:Much thanks to 3004: 2939:Korean painting 2901: 2887: 2582: 2446: 2409: 2379: 2352:—The preceding 2345: 2316: 2226:natural science 2173: 2148: 1932:Jyllands-Posten 1903:Happy editing - 1882: 1673: 1656: 1596:Andrea Meldolla 1571: 1530: 1509: 1439: 1402: 1386: 1384: 1380:for an example. 1273: 1248: 1229: 1223: 1216: 1210: 1192: 1186: 1183: 1169: 1141: 1127: 1100: 1084: 828: 814: 554: 537: 528: 522: 520:This user is a 495: 329: 304: 280: 245:Diego Velázquez 233: 208: 180: 146: 123: 120: 117: 114: 113: 91: 84: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3492: 3490: 3482: 3481: 3476: 3466: 3465: 3448: 3445: 3410:Ida Applebroog 3408: 3403: 3397: 3396: 3392: 3387: 3386: 3384: 3383: 3381: 3379: 3377: 3375: 3368: 3366: 3321: 3320: 3315: 3313: 3312: 3281: 3278: 3277: 3276: 3242: 3241: 3240: 3239: 3218: 3217: 3216: 3215: 3177: 3174: 3173: 3172: 3171: 3170: 3169: 3168: 3154: 3153: 3152: 3151: 3139: 3138: 3102: 3099: 3098: 3097: 3083: 3082: 3081: 3080: 3074: 3068: 3045: 3044: 3040: 3026: 3003: 2998: 2997: 2996: 2995: 2994: 2970: 2969: 2900: 2897: 2886: 2881: 2880: 2879: 2878: 2877: 2876: 2875: 2874: 2873: 2872: 2871: 2852: 2851: 2850: 2849: 2848: 2847: 2846: 2845: 2801: 2800: 2781: 2780: 2779: 2778: 2777: 2776: 2758: 2757: 2756: 2755: 2754: 2753: 2745: 2744: 2743: 2742: 2741: 2740: 2728: 2727: 2726: 2725: 2705: 2704: 2703: 2702: 2682: 2681: 2663: 2662: 2661: 2660: 2659: 2658: 2643: 2642: 2641: 2640: 2627: 2626: 2581: 2578: 2577: 2576: 2567: 2566: 2565: 2564: 2563: 2562: 2561: 2560: 2559: 2514: 2513: 2512: 2511: 2502: 2474: 2473: 2445: 2444:Legal Concerns 2442: 2408: 2401: 2391:the nomination 2378: 2375: 2344: 2338: 2315: 2312: 2306:Oicumayberight 2297: 2296: 2295: 2294: 2289:Oicumayberight 2282: 2281: 2262:Oicumayberight 2172: 2169: 2147: 2144: 2143: 2142: 2141: 2140: 2139: 2138: 2123: 2122: 2121: 2120: 2100: 2099: 2098: 2097: 2096: 2095: 2081: 2080: 2079: 2078: 2059: 2058: 2046: 2045: 2044: 2043: 2042: 2041: 2015: 2014: 2013: 2012: 2011: 2010: 1976: 1975: 1974: 1973: 1921: 1920: 1881: 1878: 1877: 1876: 1875: 1874: 1873: 1872: 1871: 1870: 1869: 1868: 1848: 1847: 1846: 1845: 1844: 1843: 1842: 1841: 1825: 1824: 1823: 1822: 1821: 1820: 1799: 1798: 1797: 1796: 1784: 1783: 1773: 1772: 1771: 1770: 1769: 1768: 1750: 1749: 1748: 1747: 1730: 1729: 1672: 1669: 1655: 1652: 1651: 1650: 1649: 1648: 1635: 1634: 1633: 1632: 1623:Palazzo del Te 1616: 1615: 1614: 1613: 1600:Giorgio Orsini 1570: 1567: 1566: 1565: 1564: 1563: 1529: 1528:Missing topics 1526: 1508: 1505: 1504: 1503: 1502: 1501: 1500: 1499: 1482: 1481: 1480: 1479: 1467: 1466: 1438: 1433: 1432: 1431: 1430: 1429: 1417: 1416: 1400: 1399: 1398: 1383: 1382: 1381: 1373: 1372: 1371: 1370: 1369: 1368: 1354: 1353: 1352: 1351: 1272: 1269: 1247: 1244: 1182: 1179: 1168: 1163: 1140: 1137: 1126: 1121: 1120: 1119: 1099: 1094: 1083: 1078: 1077: 1076: 1061: 1060: 1059: 1058: 1057: 1056: 1033: 1032: 1031: 1030: 1014: 1013: 989: 988: 987: 986: 979: 978: 959: 958: 949: 948: 947: 935: 934: 933: 932: 931: 930: 908: 907: 906: 905: 893: 892: 891: 890: 877: 876: 875: 874: 861: 860: 827: 824: 813: 808: 807: 806: 805: 804: 791: 790: 785: 784: 777: 776: 775: 774: 735: 734: 733: 732: 710: 709: 705: 701: 697: 644: 643: 621: 620: 617: 614: 611: 608: 605: 594: 593: 589: 588: 583: 582: 553: 550: 534: 533: 518: 508: 506:It generates: 494: 491: 475: 474: 473: 472: 471: 470: 456: 455: 454: 453: 452: 451: 442: 441: 440: 439: 438: 437: 429: 428: 427: 426: 425: 424: 415: 414: 413: 412: 399: 398: 397: 396: 386: 385: 384: 383: 351: 350: 347: 344: 341: 328: 327:The next level 325: 303: 300: 279: 276: 232: 227: 207: 204: 201: 200: 195: 190: 185: 178: 168: 167: 150: 138: 137: 134: 133: 130: 129: 127: 110:the discussion 97: 96: 80: 68: 67: 62: 50: 49: 43: 36: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3491: 3480: 3477: 3475: 3472: 3471: 3469: 3462: 3461: 3458: 3454: 3446: 3444: 3442: 3439: 3434: 3431: 3430: 3426: 3423: 3420: 3416: 3413: 3411: 3406: 3401: 3394: 3393: 3391: 3390: 3372: 3369: 3365: 3362: 3360: 3356: 3353: 3349: 3345: 3341: 3337: 3333: 3329: 3325: 3319: 3314: 3309: 3307: 3303: 3297: 3295: 3291: 3287: 3279: 3275: 3272: 3268: 3267:Planetneutral 3264: 3263: 3262: 3261: 3258: 3255: 3251: 3247: 3238: 3235: 3231: 3230:Planetneutral 3226: 3222: 3221: 3220: 3219: 3213: 3209: 3208: 3207: 3204: 3201: 3197: 3196: 3195: 3194: 3191: 3187: 3186:Augustus John 3182: 3175: 3167: 3164: 3160: 3159: 3158: 3157: 3156: 3155: 3150: 3147: 3143: 3142: 3141: 3140: 3137: 3134: 3130: 3126: 3125: 3124: 3123: 3120: 3116: 3115:Planetneutral 3112: 3108: 3100: 3096: 3093: 3089: 3085: 3084: 3078: 3075: 3072: 3069: 3066: 3063: 3062: 3060: 3056: 3055: 3054: 3053: 3050: 3041: 3038: 3034: 3030: 3027: 3024: 3020: 3017: 3016: 3015: 3013: 3009: 3002: 2999: 2993: 2990: 2986: 2982: 2978: 2974: 2973: 2972: 2971: 2968: 2965: 2961: 2957: 2953: 2952: 2951: 2950: 2947: 2942: 2940: 2936: 2931: 2929: 2928:Chinese music 2925: 2921: 2917: 2913: 2909: 2905: 2898: 2896: 2895: 2892: 2885: 2882: 2870: 2867: 2862: 2861: 2860: 2859: 2858: 2857: 2856: 2855: 2854: 2853: 2844: 2841: 2837: 2836: 2835: 2834: 2833: 2830: 2826: 2825: 2824: 2823: 2822: 2821: 2818: 2813: 2809: 2806: 2799: 2796: 2792: 2788: 2783: 2782: 2775: 2772: 2768: 2764: 2763: 2762: 2761: 2760: 2759: 2751: 2750: 2749: 2748: 2747: 2746: 2738: 2734: 2733: 2732: 2731: 2730: 2729: 2724: 2721: 2717: 2713: 2709: 2708: 2707: 2706: 2701: 2698: 2694: 2690: 2686: 2685: 2684: 2683: 2680: 2677: 2673: 2669: 2665: 2664: 2657: 2654: 2649: 2648: 2647: 2646: 2645: 2644: 2639: 2636: 2631: 2630: 2629: 2628: 2625: 2622: 2618: 2613: 2612: 2611: 2610: 2607: 2602: 2600: 2595: 2594:Paolo Uccello 2591: 2587: 2579: 2575: 2572: 2568: 2558: 2555: 2551: 2550:Planetneutral 2547: 2546: 2545: 2542: 2538: 2537: 2536: 2533: 2529: 2528:Planetneutral 2525: 2520: 2519: 2518: 2517: 2516: 2515: 2510: 2507: 2503: 2501: 2498: 2493: 2492: 2491: 2488: 2484: 2483:Planetneutral 2480: 2476: 2475: 2472: 2469: 2465: 2464:Planetneutral 2461: 2460: 2459: 2458: 2455: 2451: 2443: 2441: 2440: 2437: 2433: 2429: 2424: 2422: 2418: 2414: 2406: 2402: 2400: 2399: 2396: 2395:Planetneutral 2392: 2388: 2384: 2376: 2374: 2371: 2367: 2363: 2359: 2355: 2350: 2342: 2337: 2336: 2333: 2332:Planetneutral 2329: 2325: 2321: 2313: 2311: 2310: 2307: 2303: 2293: 2290: 2286: 2285: 2284: 2283: 2280: 2277: 2273: 2270:Please avoid 2269: 2268: 2267: 2266: 2263: 2259: 2253: 2251: 2246: 2242: 2237: 2235: 2231: 2227: 2223: 2220:disputor. The 2219: 2215: 2211: 2206: 2204: 2203:umbrella term 2200: 2196: 2191: 2189: 2185: 2181: 2179: 2170: 2168: 2167: 2162: 2159: 2155: 2154: 2145: 2137: 2134: 2129: 2128: 2127: 2126: 2125: 2124: 2119: 2116: 2113: 2109: 2104: 2103: 2102: 2101: 2094: 2091: 2087: 2086: 2085: 2084: 2083: 2082: 2077: 2074: 2070: 2066: 2063: 2062: 2061: 2060: 2057: 2052: 2048: 2047: 2040: 2037: 2036:Planetneutral 2033: 2029: 2025: 2021: 2020: 2019: 2018: 2017: 2016: 2009: 2006: 2005:Planetneutral 2002: 1998: 1994: 1990: 1986: 1985:contributions 1982: 1981: 1980: 1979: 1978: 1977: 1972: 1969: 1965: 1961: 1957: 1953: 1949: 1945: 1941: 1937: 1933: 1929: 1925: 1924: 1923: 1922: 1919: 1916: 1915:Planetneutral 1912: 1911: 1910: 1909: 1906: 1901: 1899: 1895: 1891: 1887: 1879: 1867: 1862: 1858: 1857: 1856: 1855: 1854: 1853: 1852: 1851: 1850: 1849: 1840: 1837: 1836:Planetneutral 1833: 1832: 1831: 1830: 1829: 1828: 1827: 1826: 1818: 1814: 1809: 1805: 1804: 1803: 1802: 1801: 1800: 1795: 1792: 1791:Planetneutral 1788: 1787: 1786: 1785: 1782: 1779: 1775: 1774: 1767: 1764: 1763:Planetneutral 1760: 1756: 1755: 1754: 1753: 1752: 1751: 1746: 1743: 1739: 1734: 1733: 1732: 1731: 1728: 1725: 1724:Planetneutral 1721: 1717: 1716: 1715: 1714: 1711: 1710:Planetneutral 1707: 1701: 1697: 1694: 1690: 1685: 1681: 1677: 1670: 1668: 1667: 1664: 1661: 1653: 1647: 1644: 1639: 1638: 1637: 1636: 1631: 1628: 1624: 1620: 1619: 1618: 1617: 1612: 1609: 1605: 1604:Giulio Clovio 1601: 1597: 1593: 1592: 1591: 1590: 1589: 1588: 1585: 1584:Planetneutral 1579: 1575: 1568: 1562: 1559: 1555: 1554: 1553: 1550: 1546: 1545: 1544: 1543: 1540: 1535: 1527: 1525: 1524: 1521: 1517: 1516: 1512: 1506: 1498: 1495: 1492: 1488: 1487: 1486: 1485: 1484: 1483: 1478: 1475: 1471: 1470: 1469: 1468: 1465: 1462: 1457: 1456: 1455: 1454: 1451: 1448: 1444: 1437: 1434: 1428: 1425: 1424:Planetneutral 1421: 1420: 1419: 1418: 1415: 1412: 1409: 1404: 1403: 1396: 1395:Maurice Braun 1392: 1388: 1387: 1379: 1375: 1374: 1367: 1364: 1363:Planetneutral 1360: 1359: 1358: 1357: 1356: 1355: 1350: 1347: 1343: 1339: 1338: 1337: 1336: 1335: 1334: 1331: 1330:Planetneutral 1327: 1322: 1318: 1316: 1312: 1308: 1304: 1299: 1297: 1293: 1290:Then there's 1288: 1286: 1282: 1278: 1270: 1268: 1267: 1264: 1261: 1255: 1253: 1245: 1243: 1242: 1239: 1238:Planetneutral 1235: 1228: 1220: 1215: 1207: 1204: 1200: 1198: 1191: 1180: 1178: 1177: 1174: 1167: 1164: 1162: 1161: 1158: 1154: 1150: 1146: 1138: 1136: 1135: 1132: 1131:Planetneutral 1125: 1122: 1118: 1115: 1111: 1110: 1109: 1108: 1105: 1104:Planetneutral 1098: 1095: 1093: 1092: 1089: 1088:Planetneutral 1082: 1079: 1075: 1072: 1067: 1063: 1062: 1055: 1052: 1048: 1047: 1046: 1045: 1044: 1043: 1042: 1041: 1038: 1029: 1026: 1022: 1018: 1017: 1016: 1015: 1012: 1009: 1004: 1003: 1002: 1001: 998: 994: 983: 982: 981: 980: 977: 974: 969: 965: 961: 960: 957: 954: 950: 946: 943: 939: 938: 937: 936: 929: 926: 922: 918: 914: 913: 912: 911: 910: 909: 904: 901: 897: 896: 895: 894: 889: 886: 881: 880: 879: 878: 873: 870: 865: 864: 863: 862: 859: 856: 851: 850: 849: 848: 845: 841: 837: 833: 825: 823: 822: 819: 812: 809: 803: 800: 795: 794: 793: 792: 787: 786: 783: 779: 778: 773: 770: 766: 762: 758: 754: 749: 748: 747: 746: 745: 744: 741: 731: 728: 723: 722: 721: 720: 719: 718: 715: 706: 702: 698: 695: 694: 693: 692: 689: 685: 682: 680: 674: 670: 667: 663: 661: 657: 653: 649: 642: 639: 635: 634: 633: 632: 629: 624: 618: 615: 612: 609: 606: 603: 602: 601: 598: 591: 590: 585: 584: 580: 579: 578: 575: 572: 570: 566: 562: 557: 551: 549: 548: 545: 544:Planetneutral 540: 531: 525: 519: 516: 512: 511: 507: 504: 501: 498: 492: 490: 489: 486: 481: 469: 466: 465:Planetneutral 462: 461: 460: 459: 458: 457: 448: 447: 446: 445: 444: 443: 435: 434: 433: 432: 431: 430: 421: 420: 419: 418: 417: 416: 411: 408: 403: 402: 401: 400: 394: 390: 389: 388: 387: 380: 379: 378: 377: 376: 375: 372: 371:Planetneutral 366: 364: 360: 356: 348: 345: 342: 339: 335: 334: 333: 326: 324: 323: 320: 316: 312: 308: 299: 298: 295: 294:Badbilltucker 290: 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