Talk:White power music - Knowledge (XXG)

2521:"Nazi punk music is similar to most forms of punk rock, although it differs by having lyrics that express hatred of Jews, homosexuals, communists, anarchists, anti-racists and people who are not considered white. In 1978 in Britain, the white nationalist National Front (NF) had a punk-oriented youth organization called the Punk Front. Although the Punk Front only lasted one year, it included a number of white power punk bands such as The Dentists, The Ventz, Tragic Minds and White Boss. The Nazi punk subculture appeared in the United States by the early 1980s, during the rise of the hardcore punk scene." Discusses the association of punk and racism without adequately explaining the dramatic contrast between more common/'mainstream' punk politics and the racist version. This unfairly paints punk as racist, insulting everyone who associates with punk in anyway. This should be rewritten to adequately explain the difference and avoid unfairly insulting a large group of people. For example, the anti-nazi elements of hardcore punk could have been mentioned, and the difference clarified. 1421:

suggest a good way to edit to clarify? I added a undue weight tag. WP:POV recommend that in articles about minority viewpoints that appropriate reference be made to explain how it differs from the majority, and this article fails to do so in a way that creates a negative impression of multiple forms of music. I'm posting a similar message in the Nazi punk article. "In articles specifically about a minority viewpoint, such views may receive more attention and space. However, these pages should still make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant and must not represent content strictly from the perspective of the minority view. Specifically, it should always be clear which parts of the text describe the minority view. In addition, the majority view should be explained in sufficient detail that the reader can understand how the minority view differs from it, and controversies regarding aspects of the minority view should be clearly identified and explained."

2508:"Brian Houghton, of the National Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism, said racist music is used 'to grab these kids, teach them to be racists and hook them for life.'" This line is from a local news article, and the quotes contains ellipses in the article. The context is unclear, and the local news article appears sensationalist. In addition the quote is a serious accusation, and somewhat fantastic in that implies that music has the ability to transform a good happy kid into a violent racist. The supporting quote that follows is from the director of the ADL, a group that has an interest in creating and spreading fear of racism. This quote would be fine if it had more support besides a single statement from a POV source. 2160:

everything again, and then provide to someone who seems to be entrenched in their opinion exact quotes which logically leads to them trying to pick apart someone else's research. Well, you've made any work on this article unpleasant and rather frustrating despite your promise to leave it alone. First I'll wait to see if the article is deleted. I doubt it will but I also have a low tolerance for your assuming bad faith against everything I do. Then I will work to improve it with anyone willing to actually do the research into the most reliable sources and follow what they state rather than what I believe about certain genres. If you decide to be more collaborative then combative it would be nice to have addition

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inaccurate/unverified or sensationalist information. You apparently posted a one sentence reply to my very long description of multiple issues in the article. To avoid the appearance of bad faith, I'm not going to delete those lines myself yet, but we're approaching an edit war. Reverting that edit with a tag of 'please stop' implies that your assuming that he is being malicious, which doesn't appear to be the case. The reference you used is an academic source, so I doubt the paragraph is totally out of line, although I suspect it's exaggerated. I think you need to have a two way, open-minded discussion on this talk page with those who are voicing concerns, let's not have an edit war.

2518:"Racist music is also becoming less taboo as the Internet allows users to purchase quickly and anonymously as compared to having to go into a physical store. Mainstream music retailers cite the first amendment and slippery-slope logic to defend racist music the right to be sold online." This statement is POV as it implies that the internet's anonymity is problematic, and the phraseology of 'defend' and 'slippery-slope logic' implies that music retailer are wrong to support the ability to distribute questionable music. In addition, Spin magazine is not an adequate source to judge changes in cultural taboos or other complex sociological factors. 2411:

maintaining those ideas so much as they tried succeeding from the nation and were 'beat down'. In response was a different brand of institutionalized racism coupled with white supremacy which, in turn, triggered the Civil Rights Movement which the Racist music genre developed in response to. As noted above Knowledge (XXG) has some articles on the music of the times so I will see if utilizing some of that will help resolve the issues. I'd much prefer to rework what is there than remove everything that adds too much context. Also I'm still adding material from 1990s to current so the article is incomplete in that regard.

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synthesis a third view, as much as it is using two quotes together and out of context to present a synthesis. For example, the Role in the White Power movement section presents the idea that the internet and slippery-slope logic allowing racist music to be sold online is supporting a white-power movement recruitment of young people who could potentially become homegrown terrorists. None of the quotes or refs credibly states this idea, but that section combines them in a way that presents that idea.

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Additionally racist music was born as a reaction to the Civil Rights Movement, not having some explanation why that could have happened is a disservice. You may be well versed in US history and racial politics but the rest of the world likely is not. Also the image is a perfect example of how institutionalized and dehumanizing Jim Crow laws were, if you have a better image what is it?

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it could be a start. http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t411416/ . I know the website is questionable, but the song lyrics can easily be verified. I think it is very naive to say that all "racist music" is by whites. I almost would rather see no "racist music" article than one that should be labeled "white racist music" or something along those lines. Again, first time, don't yell at me.

2515:"It is a multi-millon dollar industry which helps finance and recruit for "hate groups in the Western world", the internet and low air fares have helped internationalize the efforts." One source(which unfortunately, I cannot view) is not enough to call 'racist music' a multi-million dollar industry propped up by the internet and air fares. In fact, this flies in the face of logic. 1198: 218: 800: 779: 1772:- BTW, this is the first source I've seen to implicitly state "Other races and nationalities beside African Americans were used in racist music including Germans, Chinese, Dutch, Native Americans, and Irish." they also list songs from 1896 to 1920s, but i have not had time to follow-up on that research so I did not add it or anything else that i could not source reliably. 294: 190: 1856: 705: 1373: 1844: 2505:"The documentary VH1 News Special: Inside Hate Rock (2002) noted that racist music is 'a breeding ground for home-grown terrorists.'" Terrorism is a serious accusation, and neither VH1 nor a report on it is an appropriate reference for such a serious accusation. A government report or one by a respected, independent academic would be better. 1836: 1828: 1840: 1832: 959: 1300: 1905:, POV-pushing and off-topic content. I deleted the "Roots" section again because it was not actually about the roots of racist music. The roots of racist music go way back before the white power rock scene. The first paragraph said nothing at all about music, and the rest was just an exact copy/paste of the music section from the 1848: 3288:

I'm saying (and have been saying right from the beginning) that this article only discusses white power music, so the title should reflect that. Since the article only discusses white racist music, it should not have a title that misleads people into thinking they will be reading an article about all

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Following up her highly praised study of the women in the 1920s Ku Klux Klan, Blee discovers that many of today's racist women combine dangerous racist and anti-Semitic agendas with otherwise mainstream lives. The only national sample of a broad spectrum of racist activists and the only major work on

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is an entire - and very large - subject area that is distinct from Racist music, in fact the majority of customers on Johnny Rebels' label were blacks recording their own songs. Racism in the music industry could be summed up here but I feel it would be more of a disservice. However if you feel there

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article. Quite the opposite, in fact, with the paragraph tying the civil rights movement to progressive folk singers, and doubly odd given your belief that a "racism in the music industry" section is inappropriate - surely it's a great deal more so to the subject of this article than a precis of the

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Yeah, that too. The focus should be on how music, during that period, supported institutionalized racism primarily by promoting racial stereotypes (and, also, how black music was discriminated against and suppressed, although that might be better treated in an article on something like "Racism in the

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Racist music comes from institutionalized racism, some history of racism which born racist music has to remain even if the scope is not agreed on. If you have specific ideas how this 100-year period can be condensed yet remain to show how divided the US was and how 'wounded' the South was is welcome.

1882:"Racist music industry", seemingly only in reference to black artists getting abused by what as seen as a racist industry, is a phrase I keep seeing as a false positive. I don't note any articles on Knowledge (XXG) that address race and music in this context so if anyone has a lead please mention it. 3106:

Though since Knowledge (XXG) covers more topics that just those found in the English speaking world, I would say we can cover racist music from various other portions of the world, like those from East Asia that denigrate white people. And depending on the definition of race, where various groups of

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First post so sorry if this was out of the guidelines. I agree with most of the others, that this article is very biased. I have not researched a ton, but there is a lot of rap music directed at hurting white people. The first thing i could find is this post someone else posted on a forum, but maybe

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Between you and one other editor you have fundamentally altered, and not for the better in my opinion, the entire article while littering it with tags registering your disapproval. If you really believe I am going to edit war and play a game of pulling up each and every source, again, and re-confirm

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rather than what I may think is correct. If you do find any sources please feel free to post them here for all to see how to reconcile any differences. Meanwhile I have yet to find anything substantiative to lead away from that Racist music is considered by the mainstream to be tied to neo-Nazis and

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What do the mainstream sources say on the subject? If non-white racist music is also called and considered racist music then we should look what they say and incorporate them. I'm looking now but nearly universally this is associated with neo-Nazi and white supremacy. (UPDATE) There were a few, very

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Post a verification of the statements and a verification of the implied statement that the use of the internet and slippery-slope logic allows racist music to be sold online and supports white-power movement recruitment of young people who could potentially become homegrown terrorists. If you could

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I feel inclined/compelled to point out that I am not remotely racist. I oppose racism VERY strongly. I also oppose unfairly painting innocent parties with a broad brush. I also oppose the use of a resource like Knowledge (XXG) to spread sensationalism and exaggeration. This article, in it's present

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Racism in the music industry is a huge topic area which probably should not be dealt with here as the reasons the music industries were racist are quite complex and spread much wider. Racist music is a specific niche so I foolishly thought I could wrap it up nicely but obviously it needs a bit more

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That section is way too long, and gets too off-topic. The history of segregation is better covered elsewhere; all that that section needs to say relevant to this article could be reduced to a single graf about the role of music in the civil rights movement with a more general link elsewhere. I also

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After the deletion discussion has resolved i will look to addressing all legitimate concerns. I've read and tried to accurately summarize all of the sources represented which does represent the mainstream views on the subject. If you read all the sources and come to different conclusions then let's

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The lead sentence, which is the basis of this whole article, is very dubious. It says: "Racist music is music associated with and promoting neo-Nazism and white supremacy ideologies." The claim is supported by a single reference, but the reference does not include a quote supporting that argument.

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or apartheid. Accordingly I have linked to each of them in case anyone is looking for that information. The vast majority use the term as it is presented but I agree that there will certainly be more discussion and I look forward to learning how to better present this information with continuity as

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or something). I've no interest in carrying on a tendentious political argument with people who have dogs in this fight, one way or another, so I'll leave it to you all to spill reams of ink on the pros and cons. But "racist music" is inherently stating an opinion about the music (calling something

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Anyone have any suggestion or statements on how to improve this? I think I've made my case about the issues in this article. A collection of largely POV quotes containing serious implications and accusations, often sensationalist is not appropriate on a encyclopedia that is intended to be neutral.

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I understand your point. What I'm saying is that this should be the parent article that welcomes all racist music and should reflect that. It's true, as far as I know, that all white power music is racist, however not all racist music is white power music. I see you've gone ahead and shifted the

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She was specifically talking about the difference between men and women in the racist movements. She notes that female bands were a newer trend, that male bands were routinely subject to anti-racist protests and that female ones were not. Etc. I'm no expert in the field so if there was few if any

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The paragraph that follows("it is not a simplistic cause and effect relationship...social outcasts") is largely comprised of POV quotes, and as such is not written in an encycloped or NPOV manner. In addition, it appears to argue for censorship and acts as an outlet for the for the views of those

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Seriously! I have been trying to figure out how to capsulized a hundred years of racism to show how the music came around to be specifically and blatantly racist, additionally the fact that popular music was becoming increasing sympathetic to civil rights for blacks was a part of the formula. I'm

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I'm concerned that this article, as well as the Nazi punk article aren't very clear in indicating that the vast majority of punk is quite far left, and generally not at all pro-nazi or racist. It concerns me that this article could lead people to form negative opinions of this culture. Can anyone

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The synthesis allegations are in the very long post I made. To be more specific, the points regarding the 'multimillion dollar industry', the effects of it on the internet are examples of synthesis. There are also several that were removed earlier. The issue isn't so much using two references to

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A newer trend is for all-female white power bands to form and be marketed, because all-male white power bands are limited in venues they can play. Additionally, the female-fronted bands are much less likely to encounter violent anti-racist protests. Another aspect of female racist bands is their

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to trace this genre to the early 1970's but over the last decade the roots in the 1950s have been studied, logically there might be earlier racist music we don't know of but that's not for me to decide. I will start reading up and look to how this section should change, thank you for the ideas!

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This area of research has been unevenly built up on Knowledge (XXG) and the terms for what is understood to be 'racist music' has also changed, in the article's opening we note seven different terms. Mainstream sources seem to concur that racist music is the overarching name for now. And we have

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Hi, I don't conflate that belief myself. Researchers noted specifically that musicians in the Racist music genre believed their music appeared out of nowhere. Likewise there needs to be some tie-in as to why Racist music formed as a response to the Civil Rights Movement. I'm looking into how to

2524:"As hardcore punk music became more popular in the 1990s and 2000s, many white power bands took on a more hardcore-influenced sound. This music is sometimes known as hatecore." Unsourced/original research/anecdotal. Unfairly conflates punk with racism without adequately explaining differences. 2714:

This article reflects did and will again reflect an accurate view of Racist music as noted in sources covering The US and Europe and to a certain extent Australia. If there is any reliable sources discussing racist music elsewhere or in other languages please note them here before re-adding a

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list or to expect that researching items takes less time than deleting items. I'm going to take a break for the moment and fully expect to again be disheartened in what condition the article has again been chopped into. All in all it has been very distressing and disappointing and seems to be

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Jnast1, although that last statement by Spylab was a bit irritated, no one is assuming bad faith but you. You repeatedly make references to me and Spylab implying that we're trying to disrupt your article. I doubt he is, but I can assure you I'm not. I'm trying to prevent the dissemination of

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An article about racist music/racism in music is not the appropriate place to discuss the evolution of music genres(a fascinating subject), except the specific divergence of racist elements. When you discuss it generally here, you imply that the genres discussed are inherently or historically

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article. I think I've addressed this concern and it may need to be broadly addressed in the opening as well. Each genre of Racist music was itself a sub-genre of other music forms. So, like country, folk, punk and metal, there are sub-genres that are specifically racist. I think the minority

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I would not even classify this page as any genre of music at all, so it should not be classified as one until a enough reliable sources can call it one. This topic is rather a social movement that uses music as its form of expression more than anything. At the very least it should be moved.

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Thanks for taking a look. I saw the changes, and I'm still quite concerned, although I appreciate your work. The discussion of the history of punk in this article implies that punk is a form of racist music, and it is anything but. I'd like to replace that with a discussion of the origin of

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accusations so please list specific items you are proving are indeed synthesis or we can remove this tag as another baseless attack. If you read all the sources and come to different conclusions then let's work through any potential inaccuracies. Until then simply accusing me of falsifying

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If I hadn't read the research in this area I might think that as well. But racist music cannot be seen as just appearing out of nowhere - as some of the white power bands have even stated it did. There is a logical progression of colonial Americans embracing populist ideals and Southerners

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I'm going to be a little controversial here and say this isn't really a proper article. It seems more like an attack on popular music than a neutral encyclopedic article. Far better would be an article entitle 'racism in music' discussing the historical factors of racism in music

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I think it could and would discuss forms of racist music although Knowledge (XXG) currently only covers some forms. I think both White power music and Racist country music would be summarized here. Are you suggesting that all racist music is white power music? I'm not seeing that

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This is an online encylopedia article, with links, not a school paper (And you'd lose points on your grade for having such a lengthy detour from your subject. Certainly if I were grading the paper). You have links in the text people can click on. You have a wonderful guideline on

1588:(which is yet another subgenre of racist music) that's where this information would be. Instead I tried to get out the most crucial points and overview this area. Not all racist music is neo-Nazi, or heavy metal, or tied strickly to punk. So I think this is the most NPOV title. 1441:

viewpoint for this article would be those who think the music is not racist. In any case I saw how I needed to add some context for the punk genre specifically and I hope that addresses the problems you point out. If not please let me know and I'll research the issues further.

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I believe the context was in discussing Prussian Blue and some of their contemporaries but I had not completed research for that section yet. Google books isn't showing me the pages i was looking at before right now so for now I'll simply cite the "about this book info"

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I very much appreciate how invested you are in this topic however I must again ask you to produce reliable sources for your claims. If reliable sources contradict anything we have here then let's compare which ones say what and how best to represent mainstream verses

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Actually it makes more sense to fix that problems that can only be effectively addressed here - that is how does institutionalized racism in the US and Racist music intersect. I can't use original research so this section will take a bit of time to flesh out.

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I did respond to it but if you choose to ignore everything I've done and persist in mistrusting every sentence i write I wonder why you would bother accepting my word on anything. I'll note that this talk section is to specifically address

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Well ... I would suggest that section would make more sense if you could keep the connection to music alive. Does your research show anything about how music sustained that institutionalization? You might want to have something about, say,

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right-wing punk, and it's differences from the mainline punk culture, which is an important distinction. Would that be alright with you? I'd be glad to collaborate on it, I'm just very concerned that this article implies punk is racist.

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article to being only about white power music. If you intended to that all along I'm unclear why you asked for this rename before re-aligning everything. In any case it seems you have a plan for this so I'll move on to something else.

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would be welcome but that is not this article. At best this article could add sweeping generalized statements that are very well sourced stating that most genres have racism in them, if that's even true. It might be but I don't know.

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music industry") as opposed to later racist music like what you have so ably documented in the later sections of the article which directly and explicitly promoted a racist ideology in the absence of an officially sanctioned racism.

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I'm alarmed by your claim of original research and ask the same as the previous editor, what specific statements do you feel are original research? What specific statements come off as panicky and how could they be presented better?

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Have you actually read the books and articles you have used as references? Do you have them in your possession? How can you justify using them as references if you can't point to quotes that supposedly support your claims in this

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I'm concerned about several POV or questionable statements that do not appear to be adequately or appropriately sourced. Rather than fix them myself, and create the appearance of having an 'angle', I'd like to discuss them here.

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Each of those tags is pretty serious yet you keep ignoring that you are not providing any specific reasons for them. I also removed the off-topic tags as an article about racist music logically would cover both racism and music.

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forms of racist music. White racist country music is not a different topic from white power music; white racist country music is a form of white power music. If this article is to remain, it should be called white power music.

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White supremacists. I'm open to any constructive ideas but simply deleting (sourced) content you don't agree with is unacceptable. I will try to write a better continuity from classism to racism but it will take a few hours.

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How do you conflate not having a separate "history of racism" section in this article with assuming that racist music "appears out of nowhere?" That would be the "linking to other articles" part, the more so in that the

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That's a great idea, I have seen a lot about how racism kept black musicians from being recognized and getting fair deals and royalties but simply trying to show how music evolved during this period may help. I found

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Your opinion is noted but just as non-constructive as your disruptive deletions. Please note specific problems which can be addressed by those willing to do the work. I will try to clean up the music section today.

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reference because it doesn't say which of the four 2009 issues it is from, and it does not point to a specific quote to support the claim in the sentence. The reference is useless without those two vital pieces of

3091:" ideally should have its own stub but what would it say? "Racist music" as used in English usually refers to white racist music in majority-white countries and not to other types of racist music. Good luck. — 3259:

should not be the title of the article, since the article only discusses white racist music, not any other kind of racist music. The title does not accurately describe the content that appears in the article.

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Intelligence Report: a project of the Southern Poverty Law Center, Issues 133-136; Southern Poverty Law Center, Klanwatch Project, Southern Poverty Law Center. Militia Task Force, Publisher Klanwatch, 2009.

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state is not a discussion of racism in music. Indeed, the history and sociological origins are barely touched upon. This article largely consists of claims about it's dangers and problems caused by it.

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That's not original research but a simple matter of sourcing. I had other sources there but in editing I must have dropped them off. I'll look to adding impartial sources and even quote them.

1815:"Using African American (Negro) Spirituals in Coping with Stress by Creative African Americans Who Perform Piano and Vocal European Classical Music in a Racist Industry and Oppressed Society" 2802:

So to clarify, you have looked at the sources themselves and believe the summaries are inaccurate or synthesized? Or are you assuming they must be? There is a big difference between what I

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Well i appreciate that you feel the original version was too broad. Seems to me a reasonable effort would be to find a middle ground instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

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and summarize the main forms of racism music there? It seems the organizing of the articles could be clearer and that way you still have one main article that overviews the other forms.

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Since this was not replied to, I went ahead and removed the above statements. This is not intended to offend you, but to remove inadequately sourced or questionable statements.

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I won't play your edit wars and I won't compromise the quality or sourcing. If you do want to help I look forward to it but I also am not going to step to your deadlines for

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general disdain of performing heavy metal and hard rock music and their preference for a variety of post-feminist sensibilities in lyrics, style of music and performance.

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This article only discusses white racist music, so the either the title is inaccurate or the article is incomplete. It doesn't discuss racist music by other racial groups.

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This seems very sensationalist, and it doesn't seem to contain adequate sources. Parts trail off into discussions of overall genres in ways that falsely imply racism.

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If it's just a "simple" matter of sourcing, you should have been able to correct the problem by now. It's been a few days -- a simple thing shouldn't take that long.

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article doesn't need to demonstrate the scope and history of racism, generally ... there are articles which already do that, and you can link to them as necessary.

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Please do not remove legitimate tags when the problems have not been corrected. This article has serious deficiencies that need to be addressed. Also, please see

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female bands I have to rely on someone else's research. I still have little doubt in believing her despite the tag-bombing and "dubious" flags alarmingly added.

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quoted, not as a source of encyclopedic information. It should be verified and backed with neutral sources, and rewritten in a neutral, encyclopedic manner.

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Since this accusation has also been leveled against me it would be considerate to offer examples of actual synthesis and possible ways to fix the issues.

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started as an article on white power music so the edit history should remain with that article and 2) structure of the current article is more suited to

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Is there really a need for this article? If one wants to 'research' this topic, maybe it'd be better to seek a website that isn't so 'neutral'.

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work through any potential inaccuracies. Until then simply accusing me of falsifying information and engaging in synthesis is hostile and mean.

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Deleting the entire section is not helping, Racist music covers many genres and most people have no clue how music genres developed and split.

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I read every available reference. Some I couldn't access, you have the burden to quote these references and provide appropriate verification.

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It makes considerably more sense just to strike the section in its entirety, as having no direct connection to the topic of the article.

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if this is renamed, "racist music" should not redirect to "white power music" afterwards, a stub should be placed at that title instead.

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Once the deletion discussion has ended I will work to address the concerns mentioned ob the article, at the discussion and on this page.

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several articles in this area but nothing that overviews all of them. That's where this article comes in. If the sources all called it

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When you go to the Southern Poverty Law Centre website and look up Intelligence Report, there are four different issues in 2009.

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I agree with Spylab here, this article seems to contain quite a bit of original research, and seems a bit panicky, with some FUD.

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See my rather long post that you didn't respond to entitled POV/Questionable Statements. Please stop being personal about this.

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So you agree that there is no reliably sourced evidence for the claims you made in that paragraph. Thanks for clearing that up.

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So you agree that there is no reliably sourced evidence for the claims you made in that paragraph. Thanks for clearing that up.

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women racists, this important book also sheds light on how gender relationships shape participation in the movement as a whole.

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I'll take that as a no, you did not read many or possibly any of the sources. That makes the entire discussion more clear.

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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I am very skeptical about the following paragraph, and I would like to see the actual quotes that support the claims.

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I agree that you are again assuming bad faith and acting combative, as to the sources, no her book is rather clear.

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I suppose I'll be the first to wade into this brutal firefight and note that this article's title blatantly fails

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is a form of Racist music, and both branches, white power music and racist country music can be summarized here.

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is a way to make it work and are up to the challenge I'm open to making it work. Do you want to write a draft?

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which says it started in the 1970s, so this article actually predates it. Why not just rename this one to

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Which are the top, most reliable sources that use 'racist music'? It doesn't appear to be a proper title.

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would be the parent summary article and the current racist country music content here could be moved to

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