1946:, you are correct that I attempted to malign the source, Koch backed 'marxists' fuelling a culture war for their personal profit. Likewise, a source that is clearly involved in global warming pseudo-scepticism is extremely dubious to editors who value V and RS. You can safely characterise that as me being 'triggered'. That is about the business of content, however, pointing out those contradictions is unlikely to de-radicalise this interaction and its boisterous to and fro. My personal interest is to fight war itself, my success in helping others to liberate themselves is about 3–5 %, maybe less, getting to 10% would be a notable success. My editing focus has been elsewhere, things I think deserve more attention, but for the radicalism, indignation and pings drew me back here.
1960:, why do both the French and the German Wikipedias call the attack an "Islamist terror attack"? Granted, French Knowledge does, generally speaking, suffer of a credibility problem, but that is not the case of German Knowledge. This is not whataboutism but a serious question. There is at present no "smoking gun" in the form of a minister or public prosecutor having declared it officially to be what it no doubt (!) is, but it doesn't prevent our colleagues from labelling it, does it? Why? And, as I said, there is at least one English-speaking outlet that used term:
1857:, I imagine ISIL want it in the category, along with the twenty odd mentions of 'terror' in the article. Not an argument for exclusion, but worth considering when making this a priority and damning all and sundry, stating "Knowledge is a cesspit full of malign people", making personal attacks, and opening complaints on anyone who shows up. Have you considered whether you might be better disposed not drawing attention to what these terrorists want to be talked about
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1929:. Now, why of all people should I even speak with you? Didn't you show that you were biased against me from the very moment you spouted "climate change" (something completely off topic and only designed to malign my contribution to the debate), and didn't you insult my intelligence by claiming that I didn't understand what I read? --
1122:- as mentioned by several others, news reports indicate that he knifed several victims. Even if the shooting was the main part of the attack, I think that the knifing incidents should make the the title "attack" and not just "shooting". Also, some have said that the year should not be included, but the guideline at
1520:
Then we should consider which source is more accurate in their content: NYT or The
Guardian. I say The Guardian because it includes an actual quote from France's interior minister, an actual French government official, who says the Islamic State claim is bogus and opportunistic. We have yet to see a
1746:
trusted him on sight as soon as he saw me linking to an article from Spiked, and did his utmost to attack me ("climate change" - this is called whataboutery - "Koch magazine" - this is called ad hominem - "seems to have been only glanced at superficially" - this is just vile and stupid.)
1030:
He stabbed some of his victims, so the knife was a significant part of the attack. We usually use attack when there are multiple types of weapons used, and often even when there was only one type. The year is only needed in the title to disambiguate, otherwise we'd name our articles 1987
298:
You've lost me. That doesn't say "terror attack" either. My objection is to your suggestion that the article be named "2018 Strasbourg terror attack", specifically because "terror attack" does not have any real meaning, and not because of any objections to the word "attack".
1133:
Exceptions to the precision criterion may sometimes result from the application of some other naming criteria. Most of these exceptions are described in specific
Knowledge guidelines or by Knowledge projects, such as Primary topic, Geographic names, or Names of royals and
1963:
One of the grimmest details to come out of the
Islamist attack on a Strasbourg Christmas market last week – in which 29-year-old Chérif Chekatt killed four, left one brain dead, and injured 11 others – was that one of the men killed had emigrated to France to escape the
1536:
I don't understand your point. This was (according to the sources) an
Islamist terrorist attack carried out by a 'lone wolf' individual with (apparently) no official connection to IS. There is no contradiction there. Not all Islamist terrorism is carried out by IS
1126:
says that event page names should include when, where, & what, unless another name is more common or the event is easily known without the year (eg. "Tenerife airport disaster", "Chernobyl disaster", "Charlie Hebdo shooting", "September 11 attacks").
230:"Terror attack" doesn't really mean anything; it's a suggestive term news media use when saying "terrorism" would potentially be inaccurate/libellous. We definitely shouldn't use that phrase in the title of an article (or anywhere else, for that matter).
329:
Not only is it just wrong to compare this to 9/11, the reason for confusion is because you have been insisting on using the term "terror attack", and then use as evidence a page simply called "attacks", and then be patronising about it. And this is
1358:
The article also says "Soon after his death, the
Islamic State claimed him as one of their 'soldiers' through their propaganda outlet, Amaq. Christophe Castaner, France's interior minister, dismissed the claim as 'completely opportunistic'."
1592:
Alivebills, your question is irrelevant. The sources clearly state that this was a terrorist attack, so a terrorist attack is what
Knowledge should call it. Our own personal views on whether they rightly label this a terrorist attack mean
1987:
In my opinion, the New York Times article I have repeatedly cited puts the matter beyond any doubt. There is no reliable source I am aware of contradicting it (ie, any reliable source positively suggesting this was NOT a terrorist attack.
1136:" The events naming convention is thus one of the exceptions to the precision criterion. I think just "Strasbourg attack" is too vague, because "attack" could imply one of the many times the city was militarily attacked in its history.
2012:
I am afraid you will get no answer because our opponents are satisfied with the article just as it is. I can only hope that it will turn out at some point that Chérif
Chekatt had doubted climate change or drove a diesel car, or both.
672:
on 2018 Strasbourg shooting name change. It better describes the damage done than the vague word "attack". I mean editors accuse each other every day on
Knowledge of attacking each other and no one dies. "Shooting" is more accurate.
712:
To what extent was the knife used in the attack then? As far as I understand the fatalities were shot by the gun, and much of the media have called this incident a 'shooting', with little if any coverage about him stabbing.
1451:"Soon after his death, the Islamic State claimed him as one of their 'soldiers' through their propaganda outlet, Amaq. Christophe Castaner, France's interior minister, dismissed the claim as 'completely opportunistic'."
1875:
If you have a reliable source showing that this was 'part of
Islamic terrorism', it should be given, and the claim stated, in the body of the article. If not, then templates and categories should not be making that
1726:
I agree that
Alivebills is objectively wrong about what he thinks the page should say. However, I think he is honestly wrong and unaware of how Knowledge operates, and I think ‘lying’ is too strong an allegation.
1344:, I like that they mix in some positive stories. Not offering argument, or expecting anything resembling one in return. The Koch magazine seems to have been only glanced at superficially and contradicts the grab.
524:. If it had been a knife attack would we call the article 'Strasbourg knifing'? Almost certainly not. So what's special about an attack with guns as opposed to any other implement? Attack is a better description.
1521:
follow-up statement on that on his part. I can't access NYT because of its accursed paywall, so I don't know if there's a government official or counter-terrorism investigator who refutes the minister's claim.
1012:, the shooting is the primary event - the presence of a knife is fairly incidental. Also support retaining year - it helps to identify the subject, not simply differentiate it from other events in Strasbourg.
438:
Unfortunately, France, like other countries are repeatedly targeted by this kind of actions, if, in the future, there is another shooting in Strasbourg, the year will be useful in order to differentiate them.
811:
requires "Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles". In this case, the parallels between the 2018 Strasbourg attack and previous attacks, such as the article title
1047:
etc. In any case, many years in the future, a high proportion of people looking for this article won't remember its year, hence they wouldn't type the year in the search box when looking for this article.
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Noting again that this is not comparable to 9/11 in any way, and therefore the title doesn't need to be consistent with that. However, more similar events are the (perhaps more notable, and more fatal)
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I'm not seeing a link to the article, only the mention of one. I'll note that if access if restricted by paywalls then googling the title may allow readers indirect and one-off access to that article.
1610:
The NYT article is asking me to subscribe for a dollar a week if I want to continue reading, and I can't get out of it. And how do we know that was even the case? That's called speculation.
588:
These article titles might suggest '2018 Strasbourg Shooting (or Gun) Attack' for the current article, but it's then getting unwieldly, so my preference is still '2018 Strasbourg Attack'.
1991:
The only argument against this appears appears to be Aluvebills’ honest but misguided stance based on his own personal analysis of the situation, which is clearly irrelevant.
613:. The article states that CC also used a knife in this incident, hence attack is a better word to describe it than shooting. The only other notable crime in Strasbourg - the
1702:
When Castaner called ISIL's claim bogus, the allegiance video had not yet surfaced. He did not call the claim bogus in spite of the video, but before the video was found:
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We don't name articles based on what might happen in the future. If another notable shooting happens in Strasbourg, we would change this article title at that time.
1749:
The point remains: people are asking for articles using the expression "Islamist attack" and I provided a link to an article using the expression "Islamist attack".
976:"Attack" covers it, "Shooting" doesn't quite cover it. There is no good reason to limit the scope of the article title and thereby make it slightly less accurate.
1089:
I disagree on the basis that it wasn't just a shooting. It might be better to change the title of the CH shooting to "CH shooting attack" or just "attack on CH".
464:
What's your point with including the date ? Indeed, this shooting occurred in 2018. also, many Knowledge articles have a title that contains a date. Best regards.
1419:", or do you just point out perceived bias when it comes from conservative sources? You are using a straw man here, and being everything but an honest broker.--
1984:
I don’t agree with the stronger claims made by Edelseiser. But is there any reason why this page should not describe this incident as a terrorist attack.
1106:
per what others have said about a knife being used, that makes it more of an attack then a shooting even if the shooting was the main way of causing harm.
574:. However, the reason against changing this article's title to include shooting is that The Guardian article states that CC stabbed some of his victims.
129:– Why use the vague term 'attack' when 'shooting' is a much better suited word? Not to mention it makes it consistent with similar article titles like
1925:, thus making a display of your closed-mindedness and holding me in open contempt through your accusation of me not having understood what I had read
1881:
Where have I ever given that as a reason? Making passive-aggressive insinuations of that kind suggests that you are not acting in good faith. Desist.
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By the way, you are very naive to believe Alivebills on sight, because the article (the Spiked article, written by deputy editor Tom Slater)
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694:- as this was a shooting & knifing attack - hence not just a shooting. Examples of shooting above were all "pure" shooting situations.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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734:- As stated, it was not just a shooting, but a knife was also used. Attack covers a situation where multiple types of weapon were used.
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calls the attack an "Islamist attack". That's for the people who ask for sources calling that islamist attack an islamist attack... --
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So I ask again, is there any sensible reason why this page should not follow the sources and label this incident a terrorist attack?
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because attacker attacked people with both a knife and a revolver. And because "attack" is our common usage in terrorist attacks.
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1556:. So if this was really an act of Islamic terrorism, wouldn't the attacker have made an effort to avoid hurting fellow Muslims?
841:. Year + identifier + "attack". In both those cases, there were other articles which required the year to be included, and the
1491:
The NYT article, which has been repeatedly added & removed from the lead, clearly states that it was a terrorist attack.
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This claim was taken with scepticism by French authorities and called bogus by Interior Minister, Christopher Castaner.
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Alivebills is clearly and purposefully (but why?) mixing up the chronology of events. The chronology is the following:
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264:
That doesn't say "terror attack" either. It says "terrorist attack". "Terror" and "terrorist" are not interchangeable.
1669:, thanks, I had no trouble accessing that and will have a look later. I'm off to enjoy the madness in the midday sun.
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The following facts have been established without a doubt, and reported by the BBC, the NYT, the Guardian, CNN, etc.
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A few days later, a USB stick containing Chekatt's pledge of allegiance to ISIL was found, vindicating ISIL's claim.
845:, for example, doesn't have the year (and uses "shooting", though the one attacker used two guns and nothing else).
751:- The incident wasn't just a shooting as people were also stabbed. Therefore 'attack' in the title would be better.
360:
We don't title articles "terror attack". Please resume discussion on whether it should be called "shooting" or not.
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That's OK. Look: you have the 9/11 attacks, you have the Strasbourg attack. The only real difference is scale.
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on 2018 Strasbourg shooting, it was, by the way, the name i gave to this article when i created it. Best regards.
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1327:, so what? This is not about climate change. Do you have any proper argument, or just superficial remarks? --
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and/or believe that Muslims who are killed in Islamist attacks will spend an eternal afterlife in paradise.
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There is no reason, except bad faith or worse, not to mention Islamic terrorism in that particular case. --
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had claimed the lives of several Muslims who were in the crowd. It was called an act of Islamic terrorism.
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we don't need the year in the title, because there haven't been any other notable shootings in Strasbourg.
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1909:, you didn't want to read the article that I provided. Instead, you used whataboutery ("climate change")
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Chérif Chekatt was considered as a gangster-djihadist and had shown radical religious practices in Islam.
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is lying when he says otherwise and Knowledge is a cesspit full of malign people, but this is not new. --
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You clearly didn't read the entire discussion. I wasn't citing the Spiked article, I was citing
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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pretends that an Islamic terrorist would not have killed a Muslim, as Chékatt has done. The
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1839:, apart from the fact that it would hurt the beliefs or feelings of some apologist? --
1066:: for events, the title should usually include three elements when, where, and what.
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914:: for events, the title should usually include three elements when, where, and what.
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483:: for events, the title should usually include three elements when, where, and what.
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it was requested you stop with this debate separate to the discussion at hand. Stop.
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https://tribune.com.pk/story/1872594/3-strasbourg-attacker-pledged-allegiance-daesh/
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https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/22/europe/france-strasbourg-attacker-intl/index.html
1879:"apart from the fact that it would hurt the beliefs or feelings of some apologist?"
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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Is Andy Mabbett the ultimate holder of truth here? This is just incredible! --
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Chekatt had pledged allegiance to the "Islamic State", this is now established
768:– a knife was used as well, and besides, "shooting" sounds like a contest. --
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a few days later, the video of Chekatt pledging allegiance to ISIL was found.
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According to his father, Chékatt was fond of ISIL, while his father was not.
1625:
I read the whole article minutes ago & I've never subscribed to the NYT.
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Calling it a "Koch magazine" is just POV-pushing. Do you also talk about "
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I agree that shooting is better than attack, because it's more precise.
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I wonder why I came under such ruthless attack myself right after... --
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the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below.
1835:: What arguments are there as of now against including the category
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article to get an idea of the article that you didn't want to read
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Islamic fundamentalist, as are some of Chérif Chekatt's brothers.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this
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Once Chékatt died, ISIL called him one of their soldiers.
1315:, nice, they also say that climate change is overstated.
1255:
You keep removing the Islamic terrorism template, so...
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617:- wasn't an attack. Therefore the best title would be
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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Tell it to Knowledge, see if you can convince her: "
1695:Interior minister Castaner called that claim bogus
1170:. No further edits should be made to this section.
1124:Knowledge:Naming conventions (events)#Conventions
424:What's the justification for including the year?
837:, and the relatively similar (except by weapon)
1214:Not a terrorist attack. Pigsonthewing says so.
1188:https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46660217
1788:During the attack, he shouted "Allahu akbar".
8:
1917:. And you relied on Alivebills's summary of
1628:What exactly are you saying is speculation?
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82:The following is a closed discussion of a
1913:and ad hominem attacks ("Koch magazine")
1871:"What arguments are there as of now..?"
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1508:, yeah, I think I saw that somewhere.
1436:, but they are Marxists, aren't they?
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44:Do not edit the contents of this page.
818:indicate the use of + is the norm.
558:Yes, and there are others, including
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1837:Category:Islamic terrorism in France
1554:one of the dead is actually a Muslim
101:The result of the move request was:
540:Well what about this for instance,
247:List of Islamist terrorist attacks
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615:Strasbourg Cathedral bombing plot
1571:The NYT article isn't paywalled.
880:April 2017 Champs-Élysées attack
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790:on 2018 Strasbourg shooting. --
75:Requested move 15 December 2018
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1689:Chekatt committed his attack
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568:2018 Hamburg stabbing attack
560:2016 Hamburg stabbing attack
181:on 2018 Strasbourg shooting
2023:08:16, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
1062:See my comment below about
993:. Because it is not wrong.
910:See my comment below about
872:2016 Normandy church attack
479:See my comment below about
18:Talk:2018 Strasbourg attack
2039:
1767:A summary of what is known
1286:When a cat is called a cat
278:Go tell the New Yorkers: "
874:(explosives and knives,)
835:2017 London Bridge attack
564:2017 Hamburg knife attack
1861:, sowing fear and hate.
1160:Please do not modify it.
876:2017 Orly Airport attack
126:2018 Strasbourg shooting
89:Please do not modify it.
839:2017 Westminster attack
542:2018 Paris knife attack
220:Closed off-topic debate
135:2017 Las Vegas shooting
1809:2016 Nice truck attack
1785:He was a Fiche S, too.
1742:We should notice that
1041:Charlie Hebdo shooting
888:2017 Notre Dame attack
131:Charlie Hebdo shooting
121:2018 Strasbourg attack
1361:With a source to boot
890:(hammer and knives,)
868:Würzburg train attack
42:of past discussions.
1873:The same as before:
815:September 11 attacks
281:September 11 attacks
103:no consensus to move
1229:Don't misquote me.
1091:Sweatisoftheessence
1033:Hungerford massacre
572:Munich knife attack
155:Strasbourg shooting
1045:Toronto van attack
497:Excellent point.
1413:Omidyar magazines
964:
870:(ax and knife,)
620:Strasbourg attack
379:
378:
113:
72:
71:
54:
53:
48:current talk page
2030:
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1887:
1453:at all. Nowhere.
1391:You're welcome.
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1948:cygnis insignis
1907:Cygnis insignis
1889:
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1863:cygnis insignis
1769:
1744:Cygnis insignis
1692:ISIS claimed it
1671:cygnis insignis
1644:cygnis insignis
1510:cygnis insignis
1438:cygnis insignis
1417:Soros magazines
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467:---Wikaviani
463:
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442:---Wikaviani
437:
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1898:Andy's edits
1894:Talk to Andy
1885:Andy Mabbett
1874:
1858:
1827:
1813:
1803:
1770:
1748:
1725:
1701:
1684:
1609:
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1474:The Guardian
1471:
1452:
1449:does not say
1448:
1390:
1357:
1291:This article
1289:
1254:
1246:Andy's edits
1242:Talk to Andy
1233:Andy Mabbett
1213:
1159:
1153:
1129:WP:PRECISION
1119:
1103:
1086:
1037:9/11 attacks
1009:
990:
978:Captainllama
973:
963:kingYourBest
953:
952:as above. --
949:
932:
813:
804:
787:
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119:
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88:
81:
65:
43:
37:
1667:Jim Michael
1654:Jim Michael
1630:Jim Michael
1580:Jim Michael
1506:Jim Michael
1493:Jim Michael
1168:move review
1131:says that "
1110:TheMesquito
1064:WP:NCEVENTS
1050:Jim Michael
937:E.M.Gregory
912:WP:NCEVENTS
896:E.M.Gregory
809:WP:CRITERIA
625:Jim Michael
576:Jim Michael
499:WP:NCEVENTS
481:WP:NCEVENTS
452:Jim Michael
426:Jim Michael
161:Jim Michael
94:move review
36:This is an
2015:Edelseider
1969:Edelseider
1944:Edelseider
1931:Edelseider
1859:ad nauseam
1855:Edelseider
1841:Edelseider
1816:Edelseider
1805:Alivebills
1753:Edelseider
1714:Edelseider
1710:Alivebills
1612:Alivebills
1558:Alivebills
1523:Alivebills
1478:Alivebills
1457:Edelseider
1434:Edelseider
1421:Edelseider
1393:Alivebills
1379:Alivebills
1365:Alivebills
1342:Edelseider
1329:Edelseider
1313:Edelseider
1299:Edelseider
1272:Edelseider
1257:Alivebills
1216:Alivebills
1201:Edelseider
820:XavierItzm
770:Edelseider
503:XavierItzm
317:XavierItzm
301:TompaDompa
286:XavierItzm
266:TompaDompa
252:XavierItzm
232:TompaDompa
202:XavierItzm
2010:Gwandon34
1996:Gwandon34
1729:Gwandon34
1595:Gwandon34
1576:divisions
1539:Gwandon34
1164:talk page
753:JBergsma1
66:Archive 2
60:Archive 1
1964:Taliban.
1593:nothing.
1537:members.
1166:or in a
1014:Pincrete
651:waddie96
183:Brainist
107:Dekimasu
1919:another
1777:Fiche S
1138:AHeneen
1134:nobles.
1068:AHeneen
1043:, 2018
1039:, 2015
1035:, 2001
916:AHeneen
847:Kingsif
696:Icewhiz
485:AHeneen
439:Cheers.
362:Kingsif
336:Kingsif
39:archive
1876:claim.
1415:" or "
1295:Spiked
1120:Oppose
1104:Oppose
1087:Oppose
991:Oppose
974:Oppose
950:Oppose
933:Oppose
766:Oppose
749:Oppose
732:Oppose
692:Oppose
611:Oppose
570:&
522:Oppose
1293:from
788:Agree
715:Wq639
670:Agree
645:Agree
546:Wq639
411:Agree
389:Agree
332:after
179:Agree
139:Wq639
16:<
2019:talk
2000:talk
1973:talk
1935:talk
1927:diff
1923:diff
1915:diff
1911:diff
1845:talk
1829:Rama
1820:talk
1757:talk
1733:talk
1718:talk
1658:talk
1634:talk
1616:talk
1599:talk
1584:talk
1562:talk
1543:talk
1527:talk
1497:talk
1482:talk
1461:talk
1425:talk
1397:talk
1369:talk
1333:talk
1303:talk
1276:talk
1261:talk
1220:talk
1205:talk
1142:talk
1095:talk
1072:talk
1054:talk
1018:talk
999:talk
995:WWGB
982:talk
941:talk
920:talk
900:talk
851:talk
824:talk
805:Note
796:talk
792:Dans
774:talk
757:talk
740:talk
719:talk
700:talk
655:talk
653:}} {
649:{{u|
629:talk
594:talk
580:talk
550:talk
544:? --
530:talk
507:talk
489:talk
456:talk
430:talk
397:talk
393:Rama
366:talk
340:talk
321:talk
305:talk
290:talk
270:talk
256:talk
236:talk
206:talk
187:talk
165:talk
143:talk
1892:);
1240:);
284:".
250:".
133:or
2021:)
2013:--
2002:)
1975:)
1967:--
1937:)
1896:;
1847:)
1831:,
1822:)
1759:)
1735:)
1720:)
1708:.
1705:,
1660:)
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1618:)
1601:)
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1484:)
1476:.
1463:)
1455:--
1427:)
1399:)
1371:)
1363:.
1335:)
1305:)
1278:)
1263:)
1244:;
1222:)
1207:)
1199:--
1158:.
1144:)
1097:)
1074:)
1056:)
1020:)
1001:)
984:)
960:ÒÓ
943:)
922:)
902:)
853:)
826:)
807:-
798:)
776:)
759:)
742:)
721:)
713:--
702:)
681:iz
631:)
623:.
596:)
582:)
566:,
562:,
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532:)
509:)
491:)
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432:)
399:)
368:)
342:)
323:)
307:)
292:)
272:)
258:)
238:)
208:)
189:)
167:)
145:)
137:.
123:→
111:よ!
86:.
2017:(
1998:(
1971:(
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1888:(
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957:L
939:(
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678:L
657:}
627:(
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395:(
364:(
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288:(
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50:.
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