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1677:, you are obviously not stupid, just missing how it was an attempt by me to show that Islamist is a subjective and loaded term. And ultimately so is terrorist, it can be narrow or loose, the unqualified use of these terms is suggestive rather than factual. 911 was a terrorist act, I doubt that is in dispute. Who was responsible for executing the act, or ignoring the evidence that it was coming, is the topic in several articles here (I imagine), that there was a conspiracy to commit the act is not in doubt.
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My sense is that the article is compatible with the cat but I cannot support its inclusion on such thin basis. There is no imperative that it be included at all costs, and the reasonable cost of inclusion has not been met. Once it has, stick it in. If that never happens then so be it - our imperative
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One side comment in view of the linked previous exchange. . Although I wish otherwise, the is no requirement that wp:reliable sources be impartial. If there were such a requirement, a good portion of the wp:"Rs's" cited in political articles would be no longer be allowed. This is NOT implying
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exist, when you do not appear to be suggesting that any books/viewpoints exist that contradict the claim I had advocated. Also, an
Islamic or Islamist terrorist attack is a terrorist attack where the terrorist is motivated by what he/she considers to be Islamic principles. What the purpose of that
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This isn't about whether it is or not, it's about internal WP edit wars and no consensus backing. The BBC could state something obvious but if editors find it contentious enough to fight about, that needs to be solved. And I don't need to take anyone to task, because as I said I have no view on the
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I am a bit concerned about the logic that says "he is an expert on terrorism, therefore he knows about THIS incident", even though we do not know whether he has access to all, or any, of this local police investigation. This is akin to saying he is a medical expert, therefore he is competent in his
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that said attack was an
Islamic attack. However, if I understand you correctly, no matter how mind-blowingly obvious that inference may be in reality, it is still a 'synthesis' and nothing short of a reliable source positively stating that the attacker was definitively motivated by Islam (or that
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As to my sources, thank you Andy for the link, which I have read. If I understand correctly, my mistake appears to have been that I was reasoning that if an individual pledges allegiance to IS before an attack (IS itself being well-established as an
Islamic terrorist group), it therefore followed
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Yes he's a reliable source - as far as that goes. He's not a reliable source in the general sense that the BBC is a reliable source, or in the specific sense that an investigating police chief is a reliable source. Its not enough for him to have mentioned an assumed motivation as background to an
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We may reasonably expect a terrorism expert to know a great deal about general trends and other matters relating to broad patterns, but such an expert is wholly reliant on local investigatore for whatever knowledge he has of specific events. Given other factors, I would conclude that inclusion is
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Reste enfin la question de l'influence qu'aurait pu avoir Sami
Chekatt, frère aîné du terroriste, expatrié en Algérie , tout en s'inscrivant dans "la mouvance islamiste radicale". "L’exploitation d’un téléphone lui ayant appartenu a par ailleurs mis en exergue des contenus de propagande de l’EI",
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Because there is a comment note saying that calling it such is controversial, and so adding it back needs to be discussed on the talk page. I have no opinion, but since there was no discussion, removed it. Ping active page editors, start an RfC, or use some other method of finding consensus to
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Europol would say "jihadist." But for now, Knowledge uses the term "Islamist" instead in the categories for these assaults. But feel free to start a discussion about the term at the proper place (or the
Teahouse, if there isn't one). I don't care that much if it is islamist or jihadist.
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CTC, being an part of the US Army, is not a neutral and impartial source on subjects related to the US military's "war on terror". We don't rely on such "sources". Otherwise we will have to classify all past and present enemies of global powers as "tyrannies", "dictators", etc. —
1568:, Find some books on the subject, get an understanding of published views, appreciate there are multiple viewpoints and this is not a place for determination of fact. Islamist is not a term I was familiar with until my exposure to US media, is there an accepted definition?
1626:. The premise of what is 'obvious' rests on a definition that does not have a common frame of reference, and it is used as shorthand or 'trigger word' by commentators whose objectivity has been questioned. The emboldening of the term prompted me to question the premise.
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Peter Nesser's opinion does not necessarily align with other sources. We don't take into consideration minority viewpoints unless they are important or corroborated by multiple sources. The guy's employer and corruption level in Norway are really unimportant. Read also
1983:
Quant au père, Ange
Chekatt, âgé de 71 ans, il a prévenu son fils, par SMS, qu'il était recherché par les gendarmes, au matin du 11 décembre, qualifiant les forces de l'ordre de "chiens". Il a d'autre part décrit son fils comme un « bon musulman », assure Le
1776:
I could start by making a nav box, with a taxonomy of all the schisms religious, social, or political, and by year lists going back to … what, the Roman Empire? Again, not serious, a weak attempt at reducing a notion to absurdity. Regards to you too,
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Guidelines do not mandate impartiality - if there is one, please link it. enWP guidelines recommend sources are secondary and reliable and Nesser's article should fit the bill. What's your position on using Nesser as a source in that regard?
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policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or
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By the way, I am not sure whether being employed by NATO armed forces makes the guy so incredibly impartial in this matter. I assume that whatever he publishes, has to align with his institution's policies and political stance. —
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1831:. If he includes the attack in this category, enWP editors are obliged to follow sources - not ignore them. And no, enWP editors are under no obligation to wait a really long time for Europol, when other sources are available.
2124:. Nesser writing at CTC is a an expert RS and states this is Islamic terror, but an Islamic state supporter. Absent sources indicating disagreement (as opposed to silence on the matter) - then yes - we should included the cat.
1512:
Furthermore, the following source (the
Guardian) reports that French police are characterising the attacker as a 'gangster-jihadist'. The article further acknowledges the attacker's apparent fall into 'Islamic extremism':
1936:- which sources are you referring to? Please link them to provide a concrete example relevant to this discussion. Editors are obliged to rank Nesser's authoritative writing over the opinion of anonymous Knowledge editors.
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An islamist commits a terrorist act in 2018, while shouting "“Allahu Akbar” before opening fire at a
Christmas market. Yet, when I add the category "Islamic terrorist incidents in 2018", it is reverted. Why is that?
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If you have a reliable source showing that this was 'part of
Islamic terrorism', it should be given, and the claim stated, in the body of the article. If not, then templates and categories should not be making that
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were an inside job by the Bush-admministration, combined with the lack of a non-disputed statement by the late hijackers themselves: why are these attacks still categorized as "Al-Qaeda attacks"?
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I completely get that the exercise here is to establish what the sources say and not what we personally think the truth is. That said, surely the following sources establish that this was an
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Maybe another organisation will do too, but we need to discuss that first. It might take a while, but making an encyclopedia is not a work that needs to be done in a hurry. Regards,
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tl;dr As a rule, if the page wants a consensus, your favorite RS isn't going to overturn that. (/because this is the internet, I feel obliged to point out that sarcasm is in play)
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It is getting ridiculous, even worrisome, that some contributors still feel the urge to deny as quick as possible that these murders had anything to do with
Islamic terrorism:
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1886:. The attack described in this article happened in France, not the US where the CTC is situated. Nesser is an employee of FFI in Norway. Thus an excellent secondary source.
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original research. What editors must do, is to find reliable sources and represent them accurately. No need to shout either, please consider refreshing your reading of
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matter at all. Since you're so stubborn about wanting to include it, let's leave it up and see if anyone fights over it. If not, I guess it's no longer contentious
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Then, fairly obviously, we must assume he had no access to any information obtained in local investigation! Expertise is specific, not all embracing nor telepathic!
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Petter Nesser (employee of FFI in Norway) is an expert on terrorism - it is pointless to argue he is not an expert. Has been Nesser's article been criticized by
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And the parent category should be masculinist terrorism, of which this is a schism, lets see if I can apply the same rationale with your copypasta:
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that the discussed source is not impartial, only that a claim of "not impartial" has no basis in current Knowledge policies and guidelines.
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It's not OR to assume the status quo in the absence of contradictory evidence, that's the kind of assumption Wikipedians should be making.
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committed in France since 2012. Meanwhile, I will remove that obsolete because it is not controversial anymore to call it what it is. --
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As stated above: The following facts have been established without a doubt, and reported by the BBC, the NYT, the Guardian, CNN, etc.
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2. What more evidence is needed to convince some editors here that this indeed is an islamist attack? A notorized statement, perhaps?
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Goodness, I've convinced myself with this emboldening of every bit of mannishness, I've got some categories for a million articles!
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The following sources (BBC and CNN) both report that the attacker had pledged allegiance to IS in a video just before the attack:
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I see. For me, putting five persons to death for attending a Christmas market is absurd enough already. But that is me. Regards,
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Would they use that term, Islamist, when some international organisations (AP news) have deprecated the use of the same term.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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source should reliable (FFI is a government institutition in Norway, one of the least corrupt countries in the world) and
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This claim was taken with scepticism by French authorities and called bogus by Interior Minister, Christopher Castaner.
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https://www.lemonde.fr/police-justice/article/2019/01/14/l-attentat-de-strasbourg-etait-premedite_5409040_1653578.html
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A few days later, a USB stick containing Chekatt's pledge of allegiance to ISIL was found, vindicating ISIL's claim. [
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A few days later, a USB stick containing Chekatt's pledge of allegiance to ISIL was found, vindicating ISIL's claim.
866:-related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Are these sufficient? If not, please educate me as to why. (Genuine question - happy to be educated if I'm wrong).
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All this is mentioned in the article. Moreover, Christmas markets are a target of ISIL fighters, just see the
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Chérif Chekatt was considered as a gangster-djihadist and had shown radical religious practices in Islam.
1864:? If any expert has criticized Nesser's article I'm happy to read that criticism if you provide a link.
1379:, even though the perpetrator was killed before facing trial too. I really don't see your problem here.
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Nesser has been cited by many newspapers as an expert on islamic terror. He is a reliable source.--
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This claim was taken with scepticism by French authorities and called bogus by Interior Minister,
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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A wp:rs supports that, and IMO the arguments against it do not have a basis in Knowledge policy.
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RfC - Categorizing the article - is Petter Nesser at the FFI a reliable source?
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And it seems that both his father and his older brother Sami were supportive (
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Why is there still denial here about the fact that this was a terror attack?
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Petter Nesser of FFI writes at CTC - categorises attack as Islamic terrorism
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And, naturally, if it turns out that you are right, we shall make a new "
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A news item involving 2018 Strasbourg attack was featured on Knowledge's
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this was otherwise an Islamic attack) will do. Is that a fair analysis?
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2379:. There should be no question about this now, it is well documented. --
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As explained several times on this page; and still visible above:
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Islamic fundamentalist, as are some of Chérif Chekatt's brothers.
1581:. I already know that. I demonstrated I knew that when I said
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will judge this. After all, Europol was a valid source at the
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terrorist attack (as opposed to a mere terrorist attack):
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I suggest that you take the journalists of the respected
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with access to all the facts would be vastly preferable.
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Once Chékatt died, ISIL called him one of their soldiers.
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to task for listing the Strasbourg attack among the
2406:) doesn't respond or react, I will undo his edit. --
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1577:I don't understand why you're telling me that WP
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1686:Thanks. What would you think of this proposal?
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1682:15:12, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
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1573:21:39, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
1561:21:36, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
1531:21:10, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
1491:17:19, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
1389:16:34, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
1333:15:57, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
1303:15:55, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
1042:WikiProject Law Enforcement
1035:This article is within the
876:Knowledge:WikiProject Islam
583:Template:WikiProject France
347:must be removed immediately
50:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
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2657:C-Class Terrorism articles
2637:WikiProject Islam articles
2567:C-Class Christmas articles
2064:Combating Terrorism Center
2020:Category:Islamic terrorism
1946:05:44, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
1928:22:03, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
1914:21:59, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
1896:19:23, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
1874:19:06, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
1856:07:06, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
1841:06:11, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
1829:Combating Terrorism Center
1185:project's importance scale
961:the Sunni Islam task force
902:project's importance scale
879:Template:WikiProject Islam
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2527:Serial Killer task force
2363:Please do not modify it.
2353:08:42, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
2334:16:51, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
2315:10:13, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
2296:22:58, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
2251:18:01, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
2042:Please do not modify it.
1373:2016 Berlin truck attack
1069:Law enforcement articles
757:the Christmas task force
2537:C-Class France articles
2229:22:09, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
2215:19:47, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
2197:08:36, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
2170:17:05, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
2151:16:00, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
2134:11:54, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
2113:07:45, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
2098:01:13, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
2080:05:30, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
1694:2018 Paris knife attack
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695:WikiProject Holidays
279:relevant style guide
275:varieties of English
105:No original research
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