Talk:2021 Minar-e-Pakistan mass sexual assault

2496:, because said issue is discussed prominently by international publications as well as Pakistan sources like Dawn. That deserves a more fitting place. I propose that if this is to move it should go under "Reactions" at the beginning. Punjab police taking over the case seems appropriate, but trivial details about rudimentary police investigation such as examining of call records between 6:30 and 7:47 pm should be condensed and mentioned with brevity, as those read like a newspaper. The "October arrests" are blown out of proportion and be condensed too to a paragraph and subsumed in the same section on investigation. No point in writing "charged them with assaulting a female TikToker, Ayesha Akram on August 14", which again reads like news and because victim has been introduced, especially when a "in connection with the case" serves the purpose better. The RfC did not conclude accused as public figures, so if October arrests are to be included they should simply mention the no. of arrests made in connection with the case on the basis of victim's statement, accompanied by a one line denial by accused, as court proceedings over grant of bail to accused are UNDUE, the article is not indiscriminate collection of information. 2403:

While I do believe that @VR could and should discuss the changes they seek prior to making them, there is no policy against them adding the desired information or against removing their desired changes. Likewise there is policy for both including the desired changes and reverting the changes so I think that's moot. Now that the changes have been reverted the discussion should continue on the talk page. The same could be said for the edits reverted by @VR. Personally, I think information detailing the investigation and arrests stemming from it are valid for the article body, not the lead. I disagree with name usage in this case but, as pointed out by @VR, that isn't really the issue here. --

2932:. This talk page is for improving this article. The back on forth reversions are disruptive. Neither one of you are willfully vandalizing but you are violating editing practices called out in Knowledge (XXG) policies and guidelines. I'm just imploring you to stop before potential sanctions are handed out. I didn't take issue with your reverting misrepresentation. I would, however, ask that you do a little more research next time. It took all of a few minutes to determine that the paragraph you reverted was changed from its original wording which was more in line with the facts surrounding Salman's statements. -- 1974:

guidelines. You may not agree and you are perfectly within your own rights to do so. Either way, you must gain consensus. I am just one voice. Contrary to what you believe, we do not simply follow the sources here at Knowledge (XXG). There is a lot of information found in sources that never makes it in Knowledge (XXG). It becomes what is due and in this particular case, what is due in this article's lead. What happens on another article is irrelevant with general consensus being policy and guidelines and anything not specific in those guidelines being left to local consensus on individual articles. --

2856:(ec) It takes seconds to revert something in an article but if you really desire to improve the encyclopedia it is important to dig through the history of that article. I'm sure Theki had every intention of improving and from what I see they did make some improvements but this was an error and didn't properly explain in edit summary either. When I am able I will go back and put the original wording in the article that was agreed on by consensus. The we can decide if that wording should remain or we should make some modifications. It's unfair to judge wat was written by these refactoring edits. -- 1268: 1048: 1027: 1218: 1200: 1058: 838: 817: 462: 441: 536: 1150: 943: 1445: 1391: 1373: 922: 1132: 953: 2808:. That rewrite changed the original meaning of the paragraph from what I am reading. It was never intended to say what it does now. Perhaps Theki can explain why they called it copy editing or rewording when it clearly refactored the paragraph and changed its meaning with the removal of important details. Regardless, this is no reason to edit war and Sheriff you are at 3RR as of your last revert. -- 357: 336: 220: 367: 848: 1920:

among others associated with it. Only 13 have been arrested at this point. The only reason Sohail is named is due to his close affiliation with the victim. By naming him only you are placing more weight on him as an alleged perpetrator than the others supposedly involved. I disagree with this position being presented in Wikivoice and certainly not in the lead. --

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up on the signs of editors that may be doing so in bad faith. Furthermore don't question them openly unless you have evidence they are, in fact, acting with ill intent and never question their ethnicity. Don't only seek the aid of those whom you feel would side with you in a dispute. Get someone you know would remain neutral and tell you if you are wrong.

251: 1596:"Seems" is not a confirmed consensus. If an editor/admin that is uninvolved in this RfC or the following discussions about the RfC wishes to close said RfC and finds that, in fact, they are considered public figures just for having a tiktok account and posting videos then what you said above applies. -- 2069:

Amir aka Rambo's arrest is important and different from other 8 or 13 others arrested along with him because; Ayesha Akram in her first statement called him her saviour who rescued him from the incident. Later on he was directly charged by her in supplementary statement as the main culprit behind the

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Actually, I was proposing that for the lead. For the body, I'd include more details including details of the legal aspects of the charges against Sohail, previous statements made by Akram regarding Sohail. Why would you not want to include that in the lead? The police arrested the alleged perpetrator

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Do you not see how some might question that you are, in fact, pushing an agenda? Your first action was to try a delete the entire article with the reason being "WP:NOTNEWS", subsequent edits questioned the ethnicity of the creator and sought the aid of another editor that had engaged in edit warring

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on the user talk page of an editor that had engaged in an edit war against the creator of this article. This seems highly inappropriate and questionable behavior. Being as this is a new editor to Knowledge (XXG) I am seeking to show them the way we resolve content disputes by opening a discussion on

3003:

I'll help out to the best of my ability. I might be busy with academic stuff for most of the day but when I have time I'll attempt to expedite things.I will admit that I didn't completely look into the sources that correlated with the information being presented as I was switching things around (not

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If I changed the meaning of the paragraph that was not my intent. I intended to improve upon the grammar which was lacking; no deliberate attempts were made to change any of the information. I'm still new to this, I apologize for the mess. I can try to roll back my changes but I'm not sure how to do

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My suggestion would be to make an edit request on this talk page of what you want to see added to the article and provided the source if you do not not intend to add such yourself. Don't go around questioning the motives of other editors until you have sufficiently gained experience editing to pick

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As for asking if the creator was Indian was because i noticed in their contributions to Knowledge (XXG) that they only make articles about crimes in Pakistan but none in other southeast Asian countries. They claim they are a student of south east asian studies. So an element of suspicion arose that

2402:

I apologize, I have been away for a week traveling. I am very tired but will respond here before logging off for the rest of the day since my comment was used as something to support one side of this discussion. My comment does not exactly support the premise for which it is being represented here.

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I have considered and I disagree to it in this case. There are 13 total arrested. Unless you find where all 13 are named then I suspect naming Sohail is undue. We don't know that he perpetrated this crime and he certainly didn't solely commit the crime as a FIR was filed on over 400 for this crime,

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twice with edit summaries of "Added detail" and "Added a detail and yes it's from the same citation that gave the statistic". Upon review of the source that immediately follows the statement, there is no discussion of dismissal of cases, revocation of cases, or discarding cases as false, much less

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that seemed to have been prominently mentioned in the article yet even its author wasn't known. If we are going to prominently mention a quote, we should know its author and either they should be some prominent person, or this quote should have been repeated in RS to warrant this kind of prominent

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I recommend proposing it in a new section and allow everyone to give their thoughts. Of course, you are allowed to boldly edit and we can go from there but I strongly disagree with this "shoot first and ask questions after the fact approach" to editing. There is no rush to get this done. Knowledge

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And my position is that you're interpreting BLP guidelines quite incorrectly. Let me add some material both to the article and the lead, so you may know exactly what it is I'm proposing to add. I'm not proposing to add anything in wikivoice (as you'll see shortly). Of course, you may revert it, as

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You are the one that parsed the edit in their most trifling components, kindly do not then accuse me of following your own template you insisted on to ask for explanations. I did not raise a SIZE objection, but my argument revolved around UNDUE and BLPCRIME, do not set up a strawman and stick to

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what position am I presenting in wikivoice? In the above statement I did not say that he committed the crime, only that he was arrested. And there is now no doubt that he was arrested. I have provided several reliable sources. There is further no policy that bars us from mentioning the arrest of

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Thank you for your response. My intention wasn't to push agendas. Questioning ethnicity was naive of me,I agree, and I am sorry for that. I only wanted to promote a neutral perspective. I feel There are some issues with the article. First I feel it is not updated to present day. Furthermore new

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In October, 2021, police arrested the victim's associate Amir Sohail (who also called himself "Rambo") among others and charged him with molestation. The arrest came after the victim accused her associate of masterminding the mass sexual assault and blackmailing her over "objectionable" videos.

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There are problems such as 1) your "investigation" section only covers those point of views that have been covered by Pakistani sources but not international sources, 2) What "associate's lawyer denied" should not be covered because they were paid for it. Let me know what you have to say about

1973:

The lead is a summary of the article high points. It should not present anything not found in the article. Propose to add content to the article first and then propose what you wish to add to the lead. I gave my position based on my interpretation of General Knowledge (XXG) guidelines and BLP

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i did not mean to push an agenda. Why are you insisting I am? Furthermore promoting neutrality is your concern. That's a rule of wikipedia. Erasing edits that dont fit your perspective is not neutral. These statements were quoted from the articles that were included this page. Not including

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You certainly did not clean up after your test edits as you now claim, necessitating the purge. If you wish to make test edits, do so in the space provided in sandbox, not in article namespace. And do not also repeatedly re-add disputed content even in the face of clear disagreement.

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Oh no, I'm sorry if what I said seemed to imply your intent was anything but good faith. On the contrary, I don't think you were trying to mislead so I don't view it as a mess or that you should need to apologize. We can work together to make sure the article says what it should.

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For individuals who are not public figures; that is, individuals not covered by § Public figures, editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been

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Also please clarify if you opposed to merely mentioning Rambo's name, or anything about him at all? Would you be opposed to the article and the lead describing his arrest, his relation to the victim, the fact that the victim herself accused him without mentioning his name?

3102:

Also the article was quoted as saying said that many critics recalled Imran khans statement. However when I looked at the news article it was only the writer of the article recalling the past starement. There was no mention of many critics recalling the statement in the

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Thank you for taking notice. I didn't revert them again due to that rule and was waiting to find some volunteer time to go through this. Thank you for spending time to actually read the coverage and share what actually happened. I hope we can revert Theki's wrong edits.

3045:"If a woman is wearing very few clothes it will have an impact on the men unless they are robots,” said Mr Khan in an interview in June. “If you raise temptation in society to a point – and all these young guys have nowhere to go – it has a consequence in the society." 3165:. There was only a single line and just that. Being editors its our duty to promote neutrality and mention all prespectives.Therefore I believe another section should be included that mentions the facts that have caused this incident to be casted in a doubtful light. 2348:

Further, as an aside, I would like to suggest that you keep the passive aggressive comments out, as they dont aid you in building the Knowledge (XXG). One set of reverts in three days being stretched as "active on other articles" to allege stonewalling is

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sure if my edits could have been considered CE or rewording— my memory is fuzzy, I don't fully remember what I was trying to do). When I get home in a couple hours I'll look through my edits and the sources and try to identify the misconstrued changes. —

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It was clearly written in the article "DIG Investigation Shariq Jamal Khan said 110 cases were discarded after they turned out to be false, as he noted that sexual assault cases used to take place earlier as well, but women would refrain from lodging an

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It is not not appropriate to question the ethnicity of other editors or determine they are acting maliciously and without good faith strictly because of their perceived ethnicity. They should be judged on the merits of the content of their edits alone.

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At no point in time I see anyone objecting to adding content on the investigation and arrests. The discussion was only on whether to include Amir Sohail's name, which is not what I'm objecting to here. Once again, I'm objecting to your mass removal

2524:". In my edit, I had only two paragraphs on the October arrests totalling 990 characters in an article of 22000 characters (meaning just 4-5% of the article text). How can that be "blown out of proportion" when it was covered by so many newspapers 153: 3161:

evidence came to light that caused many to doubt the validity of the incident. These facts weren't even mentioned here. Some articles referencing this them were included in the page but details from them weren't even quoted. For example

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which goes into great detail to mention that the accused attacker was David DePape. DePape doesn't look like a public figure before the crime, yet it would be ridiculous to not include him (and any attempt to do that would quickly get

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aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the

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Do you intend to edit using the other account and this one? Either way you should link the two accounts by disclosing that you have multiple accounts on the user page for both accounts and make sure to include the username.

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i was logged in in my laptop and got it back yesterday after I had given it for fixing. So I have my old account back. Still I was logged in on Knowledge (XXG) on my phone with this account. So I was using it to make edits.

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Since you mentioned the RfC, let me ping everyone who participated in it (and hasn't commented on talk recently, and hasn't be tbanned). The question is whether material covering the October arrests (mentioned in these RS

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Any such allegation shouldn't be in wikivoice and clearly attributed, but removing such critical details from the article is quite inappropriate. And some mention of the arrest of Rambo and others needs to be in the lead

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attributing "Some" which gives the statement a certain weight. I am not opposed to re-adding such statement if the editor properly attributes it with the appropriate citation for verification of such a statement.

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2) Almost every lawyer, spokesperson, professor, journalist etc are a paid employee of someone. In this case, the associate's lawyer is presenting the associate's side of the story, which we should include as per

2133:. But as I pointed out above, there is no policy grounds to not mention his name on an article that is all about a crime he is alleged to have committed. We can start a more focused RfC on that if you don't agree. 1856:

I can agree to that being in the article body rather than the lead. Almost all of the sources do place a total number arrested to this point. A total of 13 with Sohail being the one most connected to the victim.

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I also find your move of content about global concerns over the incident from a section of prominence to out of place in "other reactions" lacking such prominence to be objectionable. That does not conform to

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Sherriff, your conflicts with others don't involve me and don't excuse edit warring. If you think you are being hounded or you believe there are other behavior issues that need admin attention please go to

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is what it would look like if Sohail was mentioned by name. I have self-reverted the name of the suspect out of courtesy, but ATM I believe we ought to name the suspect as he's been named in dozens of RS.

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Alright, we'll wait for that RfC to be closed. But normally we include information on alleged criminals so long as this information is verifiable from multiple reliable sources - which it is in this case.

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This may already have been covered above, but why does this article not mention Akram's associate Rambo, especially as he was arrested by the police and accused by Akram as masterminding the mass sexual

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The writer of the article said Khan had received earlier criticism for statements made. So through their investigation they are saying critics have questioned his statements. It is an accurate summary.

2798:, please stop edit warring. Sheriff you were technically right to remove what was written as it is a misrepresentation but if you had done a little more research, that section was highly rewritten by 2116:

You were supposed to propose and gain consensus first. Now that the RfC closed as no consensus, you neeed to be more careful with introducing controversial changes related to this particular subject.

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I would want to see how it would be written up and proper discussion given to what would be included in any such statement. Local consensus would have to be met prior to any inclusion. --

1289: 190: 3663: 1957:. We do this in probably every other such article on wikipedia. The reason we name Sohail is because multiple RS have named him. We are simply following the sources, no more, no less. 1708:

Unless it's clearly defined policy then consensus is local to each article so I don't consider other articles about crime when I look at this one. This is a stand alone article. Find

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It makes sense to include the reactions of people where it has been covered by secondary sources. But we give a lot of space to the reaction of Maria Amir's editorial. Her piece is

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I am not angry but many new editors misunderstand the purpose of Knowledge (XXG). I am trying to give you guidance. Apparently that is not being received well so I will stop. --

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We are not duty bound to present all perspectives. We duty bound to present the perspective of reliable sources in a neutral manner. Sources do not have to be neutral, we do.

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the information about the investigation and October arrests in this case. Why? Simply saying there is "no consensus" without giving any reason to oppose the content is

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on the article with a position similar to one you espouse. And all of this on the first ever article you have attempted to edit on Knowledge (XXG) with this user name.

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statements that don't fit your perspective is bias. Furthermore I proposed the article for deletion as it wasn't updated and the text read like newspaper headlines.

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when they are mentioned by at least 6 RS that I mentioned above? I can provide more RS if necessary - how many RS do you require to realize that this is highly

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1) I didn't find many international sources on the investigation. Can you provide some quotes on what international sources have to say about the investigation?

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The possible rearranging of the "Reactions" section doesn't explain why you removed details on the investigation and arrests, please discuss that separately.

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https://pakistanfrontier.com/2021/08/19/investigation-reveals-ayesha-akram-planned-minar-e-pakistan-incident-as-a-publicity-stunt-with-her-partner-rambo/

2188:-ness. Same thing for Soha Nisar. In addition, the reaction section looks like a quote farm, where we simply copy and paste long quotes from individuals. 168: 3648: 3633: 3603: 2743:

As long as we do not name anyone it seems fine to say how many were arrested, and what many of the charged were. We are after all discussing a crime.

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It has been 14 days (2 weeks) since my last comment, yet Captain Jack Sparrow hasn't responded, so I'm going to go ahead and restore the material.

2527: 1776: 1790:. There really is no doubt that Amir Sohail (aka "Rambo") has been accused by the victim, arrested by the police and charged with sexual assault. 479: 469: 446: 2657: 2529: 1455:

procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been

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furthermore I did apologise for questioning the creator. Why are you being so angry? I only gave an opinion. Is no one allowed to do that?

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I reverted my removal of the statement as you provided an accurate statement from the source that I simply must have missed. My apologies.

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Details of the police investigation are certainly relevant and we don't need to worry about size, as this article is not too long (as per

2325:(who is active on other articles) to please respond to the questions above. Mass removal of content from an article needs to be justified. 1166: 616: 3683: 1234: 2436:, for the 4th time, what exactly is your objection to this content? If you do not respond, I will go ahead and re-instate the content. 698: 125: 663: 99: 2063: 1544: 3041:"Mr Khan has himself been criticised for suggesting that a rise in sexual violence has been fuelled by how women dress and behave." 966: 927: 861: 822: 380: 341: 104: 20: 1577: 3093: 2551:" yet the sources, RS, give significant coverage to the relationship between the victim and the accused. We can't omit that info. 2004:

but I hope that instead of reverting, you'll modify it as you see fit, and then I'll modify it etc. Otherwise next step would be

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i have edited Knowledge (XXG) before. But this account is new. I made it because i forgot my password and couldn't retrieve it

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and related articles on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

1225: 1205: 591: 65: 739: 2558:" can you explain why court rulings relevant to the sexual assault would be UNDUE in an article about the sexual assault? 1471: 1621:

The RfC cannot be used as an argument until it has been concluded. There is no reason to ignore WP:BLPCRIME until then.

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as mine, and refrain from deleting well-cited content or adding unsourced or poorly sourced material to this article.

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In my opinion this editor is pushing a particular narrative, even going so far as to asking if the article creator is

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You requested assistance on my talk page, but I'm currently occupied with other tasks. Please regard the opinion of @

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You know that the material regarding it was contentious based on the discussion above, and were told to avoid

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Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests/Archives/2021#A section copy edit request

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may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the

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As you can notice, I only made the edit to show what it would look like in the article and self-reverted

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