504:-- I think that an important point in Ido is its "unasenceso" (one-sensedness) principle. Every Ido root has one meaning, while some Esperanto roots actually have two close meanings: verbal and non-verbal. For instance, adolesko (a teenager) - adoleski (to grow up), aero (air) - aeri (to pump), aviado (aviation) - aviadi (to fly a plane). Some verb-noun pairs are modelled after English or other languages, e.g. akvo (water) - akvi (to water), almozo (alm) - almozi (to beg for alms) (and that's only a fraction of examples starting with A). Even more disturbing, some compound words are permitted to have a fixed meaning: lernejo (school) literally means only a place to learn. This is something that can never happen in Ido.
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cannot find much reference material which isn't biased. The
Esperantists feel betrayed by the evil Idists, and the Idists all seem to be martyrs of the cause of a better language. I know truth usually lies inbetween. I simply want to present how each side feels about the other. Perhaps there should be a seperate section on the movements' relationship? Thoughts anyway. And please feel free to add or edit.
445:. It seems to be detailed and complete (talks about compounds and the exceptions for week days), but it's in Ido itself (i only know Esperanto), so i don't understand some parts. I must say that i love (Â :-) ) regular spellings, and i see those rules as unnecessary complications for an international language (that was supposed to correct the problems of another!). I think the creators of Ido didn't like
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look at the dictionary) consideration I wrote about the number of roots in both languages (Esperanto vs Ido) got also deleted... Personally, if I wanted a neutral and schematical lenguage I'd go for
Esperanto, and if I wanted an international language, I'd go for interlingua. Ido does not do that well for both ways,
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Ido, so perhaps it is the one exception to all other language, but I've heard that the forced regularity of Ido on the surface level only serves to push its irregularities in deeper, where they aren't noticed by the novice, but where in the end they cause the same difficulties as the irregularities of Espo.
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I think the word international there is okay because it's in quotes and preceded by "the creators of Ido felt" - the creators did say that they were making a more "international" language, so as a quote it's accurate. Without the quotes or the statement that it was simply their view it would be a POV
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article, internationality is not mentioned at all, but neutrality in the other hand is mentioned as the main difference! ...I wrote a sentence about neutrality here and got deleted because it was not a valid POV? I think that the general information here is far too much ido-ist. The constatable (just
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Then
Esperanto could be less International (yet to be probed, though, as still there is not a clear countable relationship between "simmilarity of words", "number of languages the auxiliary languague is simmilar to" and "how widespread each one of those languages is") but Esperanto is then undoubtely
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Ido introduced a number of suffixes in an attempt to clarify the morphology of a given word, so that the part of speech of the root would not need to be memorized. In the case of the word krono "a crown", the suffix -izar "to cover with" is added to create the verb kronizar "to crown". From this verb
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I don't believe it. Those claims may be made, but they're not possible in human language. The only way Ido could maintain this level of perfect regularity would be if it were never spoken. As soon as you get a speaking community, people will start using words idiosyncratically. Granted, I don't know
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I've just looked it up and it seems that in Latin uter/utrum means "either", while neuter/neutrum means "none". Since this makes them opposites, the use of 'utrum' would be to emphasize this difference (i.e., that 'common' is not the same as 'neuter', but rather its opposite). Anyway, a replacement
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is mentioned: "a truly neutral language would draw its vocabulary from a much wider variety of languages, so as not to give unfair advantage to speakers of any of them". So please do not delete the statement about neutrality I wrote, I think that this comparing article is not neutral and claims the
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Memorizing the meaning of a root without memorizing if it's a noun or a verb? How does that work? What do you memorize? If you only memorize that "kron-" is something related to a crown, but can't remember if it's the noun "crown" or the verb "to crown", then you can't know if "krono" means "crown"
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I have started a history section, which at the moment seems very biased towards
Esperanto, but this is not actually the case. I am trying to write a section which will present, not just a history of the two languages, but also a history of the two movements' relationship to one another. Honestly, I
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are not semivowels, but separate vowels/syllables, and that the stress in such words is antepenultimate. Or, perhaps we could describe them as divocalic diphthongs (many languages do this: vowels retain their separate identities, but don't each constitute a separate syllable). The days of the week
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Anybody have any concrete numbers for the total amount of donations, purchases and whatnot for the
Esperanto community? For Ido it's quite easy because it's almost nothing. There's the yearly conference plus some books and dictionaries that can be bought, and the rest is all available on-line for
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The definition of a digraph is "a pair of letters, especially a pair representing a single phoneme," which is exactly what oj, aj, aux, etc. are, but they are also diphthongs. Therefore
Esperanto doesn't have one-to-one character correspondence as there are multiple digraphs which are also
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Also.. I don't see your point. You deleted my sentence about neutrality by saying "That's still debatable. Ido is more international." Did my sentence say that it wasn't? this is not an Ido vs. Esperanto fight, I'm not
Esperantist but I think this article does not take all the facts into
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In vocabulary it says: "However, Ido lacks the one-to-one correspondence between letters and phonemes that
Esperanto has, using the three digraphs qu, sh and ch. One-to-one correspondence has been adopted in Esperanto to ease pronunciation learning and parsability of the written text."
1361:, and if you didn't know you had to guess. In practice, everyone and everything was presumed male (the unmarked case), and being female was a notable deviation from the norm. This was the situation when Ido split, and was one of the points Ido explicitly wanted to improve.
698:.The entire "Internationality" section would be a POV then. If that section is kept, and since "internationality" and "neutrality" are antagonical concepts in the way this article understands it, I don't see why there is no place for the explanation about this duality.
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Yeah, the word internationality just invites POV. Since that section has to do with vocabulary as well, we can just remove the 'internationality' title. I agree that these "IAL x and IAL b compared" articles are all pretty bad. I don't even think they're necessary.
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on my talk page and it seems convincing to me, but since the overview is supposed to be a summary of the whole article and the information wasn't added to the main sections, I still feel this inclusion is somewhat wrong. I would like to see other opinions. -
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Reasonable analysis. The recent attempt to make
Esperanto gender-neutral seems like a clumsy workaround, as the language was not originally intended to be so. Perhaps we should include both descriptions in the overview table, mentioning that the question is
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it is possible to remove the verbal -ar and replace it with a nominal -o, creating the word kronizo "a coronation". By not allowing a noun to be used directly as a verb, as in
Esperanto, Ido verbal roots can be recognized without the need to memorize them.
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It suddenly strikes me that the year of this reformation of the artificial language, 1894, might have of influence to Orwell's 1984 next to the publication date of his work (1948)... otherwise it's a nice coincidence or an intertextuality by pure chance
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The chart explains that Ido requires accusative only if the object precedes the subject, but the examples given for Ido contrast in whether the object precedes the verb, not the subject. If the explanation is correct then it should be valid Ido to say
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It doesn't matter if they are to be believed. The principle is notable as a argument of Ido proponents regardless of its merit. I must look into the "unasenceso" idea, but for now I will add mention to the article as per my current understanding. --
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353:-- One change that Ido made is the stressed syllable of words. In Esperanto, it's easy and perfectly predictable where the stress is. In Ido, it's not as easy: usually it's on the penultimate syllable, but if the word ends with
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Esperanto has no digraphs (multiple letters corresponds to one sound), but has diphtongs like oj, aj (multiple sounds are somewhat merged into one sequence when pronounced, but they still consist from multiple sounds).
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is a father, not a parent. There is now no systematic way of knowing whether an unmarked noun is intended to be male-only or generic as it depends on the word and on how conservative the speaker's dialect is.
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278:, doesn't that destroy the morphological argument for Ido? How can the part of speech of the root be transparent if it can be used as either a noun or a verb without a suffix, like the Esperanto example of
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Internationality isn't supposed to mean the number of languages that supply some token cognates, which doesn't buy a speaker of any of them much, but rather how widespread all the chosen cognates are. --
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free. I always read about rich people from Hungary, Brazil and Japan pitching in for Esperanto though. Also how many people actually make a living just working for Espo? That would be interesting to add.
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544:"Adolesko" is a bad example. It doesn't mean "teenager". That's "adoleskanto". It's a verbal root, which does not mean "to grow up", but "to be an adolescent", so "adolesko" means "adolescence".
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is male, or at least not female). This situation is not stable, and part of a process which can lead to multiple outcomes. One example for this instability is the internal tension between, e.g.
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The chart makes it look like Ido is more international because its more Latin-like, whereas Eo has words from Germanic and Slavic languages, so it seems that Eo is more international to me.
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prefix might become obsolete in the future). I might also add that "gender-neutrality by default with exceptions" is the rule that is taught in the Duolingo Esperanto course. See also
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I also just realized that there is currently no orthography section. Since Esperanto's diacritics are a favorite object of criticism among Idists, there probably should be one. --
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The article itself cites no one that directly uses 'utrum' to refer to common gender, leading me to believe it was a Swedish editor that didn't know the English equivalent.
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Personally, I don't have a problem with moderately complex stress assignment. Because it's reinforced with every word you hear or say, it quickly becomes second nature.
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I was confused about what 'utrum' meant and why is was used 11 times throughout the article, so I searched it up. It's an obscure term that derives from Swedish
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Over time, such blatant sexism became less acceptable. Esperantists started adopting the male term as the generic term, so that a female lawyer could be an
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Yes, according to the Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto , it is a religious term. Although I do not know whether this is intentional or simply an error.
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consideration. Also a higher number of roots, being them also romance-like makes it less neutral, that's one of the reasons it is an important fact. --
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Exactly. Then please explain why that "internationality" concept is a difference between the two languages, and neutrality and number of roots is not.
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No. As described by other articles and grammar references (even here on Knowledge (XXG)), virtually all words are now (lexically) gender-neutral,
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Is Esperanto masculine by default or gender-neutral by default? The overview table originally described it as masculine by default, but an IP has
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they trend to be pronounced as single unit (but actually there is no strict rule on it - it's up to the reader how to pronounce such segments).
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by itself just signifies a person one is married to, male or female, and the addition of -ul- makes it clear that we're referring to a man.
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We already use Latin in taxonomy, so the Esperanto word for it is the closest to Latin, making it more memorized and more practical.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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Okay, this is the first bit of the article. Not sure if the url for the Fundamento is the best one so replace as you all see fit.
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It's important to add Latin language in the comparison. I feel that the claim that Esperanto deformed the root of words, such as
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That's nice, but the article should not be "Esperanto vs. Ido" but rather one that simply lists the differences between the two.
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would be regular, because it's only the high vowels /i/ and /u/ that are spelled the same as the semivowels /j/ and /w/. (But
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are not exceptions, since they're not compounds. (Espo also has many inherited compounds that aren't true compounds in Espo.)
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By the way, it is interesting how "internationality" is mentioned here as something more important than neutrality but in
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Maybe whenever there's another vowel available, -CiV and -CuV are counted as one final syllable and so don't take stress?
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by itself does just mean "spouse" but I don't think there are any derivations from that, except for awkward ones like
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But Esperanto does have digraphs. oj, aj, aux, etc. It even says there are digraphs on the Esperanto wiki page. --
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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Traditionally, there was no way of referring to a lawyer (for example) without referring to their gender. An
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I didn't say Ido was more international. I said some might make that argument, and both would be equally POV.
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The same applied to all professions, all people, all animals. If your neighbour's cat was male, it was
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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734:" or something like that...hmm.. I'm not english speaker, don't know if there is a more precise word...
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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397:-- It seemed a perfecte rule to me until i found this (under "stress", or search for "rendévuo"):
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that refers to common gender (i.e., masculine and feminine genders, but not neuter gender). The
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The question is somewhat open to debate, and it depends to an extent on the speaker and context.
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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Somone made the chart where you can't read the Ido and Esperanto. I don't know how to fix it.
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Do these these issues deserve mentioning on the page? And what do Esperantists think of them?
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You're most likely right. It really doesn't seem like a real linguistic term in English. -
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1639:, Äi estas religia vorto. Kvankam mi ne scias, Äu tio estas dezirata, au simple eraro.
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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was explicitly a female lawyer. The most gender inclusive way of including both was
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Okay, I reworded it and removed 'internationality' as a section. How's it look now?
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which probably sounds about as good as "spousify" for marriage, which is just
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1495:(both forms are now read as gender-neutral, leading some to suggest that the
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https://web.archive.org/web/20111125103925/http://idomondo.org/skolo.1.6.pdf
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a masculine/third-gender reading when contrasted with a female word, as in
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Adjectives can precede the noun as in English, or follow the noun as in
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advantages of Ido without thinking of the advantages of Esperanto. --
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EÄ guto malgranda, konstante frapante, traboras la monton granitan.
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veteran about: on PLATO keyboards, double-quote is shift-comma. â
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Would the stress rule be "last vowel before the last consonant"?
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Linguists use angle brackets when exhibiting orthography, as in
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it to gender-neutral, stating it to be well-sourced. They gave
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considers that "diphtongs" as vowel+semivowel segments, while
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There is a new site about Esperanto1894 live online by now:
564:(From this Knowledge (XXG) article in Morphology section) --
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might be an exception because it's a compound, and the word
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977:"buffalo" is biased. In fact, the origin is Latin and it's
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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more neutral, as neutrality is supposed to mean, as in
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In at least some articles âčâș is preferred to <: -->
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Ido word order is generally the same as Esperanto (
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1278:while the mandatory accusative would occur in
1170:This message was posted before February 2018.
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1249:https://sites.google.com/site/esperanto1894/
851:(not sound) correspondence, since Esperanto
726:That's better, thanks. I'd also change the "
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303:in Ido. Is that what you meant? The word
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461:as semivowels very ofen ;-) --
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1137:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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1450:
1404:
1276:me lakto drinkas
1236:
1227:
1200:
1199:
1178:
1068:
988:
826:
744:statement, yes.
732:more "romancish"
596:Internationality
282:? Just curious.
270:Mithradates, if
266:optional affixes
164:
163:
160:
157:
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133:
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59:
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44:
23:
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1529:
1507:
1299:
1271:
1245:
1230:
1225:
1193:
1186:have permission
1176:
1150:this simple FaQ
1135:
1090:
985:
971:
969:Comparison bias
876:
845:
809:
787:
777:Cameron Nedland
773:
631:Cameron Nedland
602:Cameron Nedland
598:
502:
351:
333:
331:History section
268:
253:
243:211.240.138.197
239:
161:
158:
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152:
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129:
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98:
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12:
11:
5:
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1384:
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1307:an explanation
1298:
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1156:Added archive
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835:98.203.152.242
832:
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582:217.109.85.156
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439:
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178:Mid-importance
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96:Midâimportance
84:
72:
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65:
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40:
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32:the discussion
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1196:source check
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953:
899:
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861:91.185.63.25
857:phonetically
856:
852:
848:
846:
830:diphthongs.
828:
806:
792:
788:
774:
736:80.174.65.68
731:
727:
700:80.174.65.68
682:80.174.65.68
660:80.174.65.68
646:80.174.65.68
599:
560:
558:
527:
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480:
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458:
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177:
137:
68:WikiProjects
36:No consensus
35:
1652:TucanHolmes
1508:TucanHolmes
1071:Mahmudmasri
991:Mahmudmasri
898:When I saw
881:stands for
810:âPreceding
746:Mithridates
719:Mithridates
710:Mithridates
691:Mithridates
669:Mithridates
309:Mithridates
280:krono/kroni
258:Mithridates
1670:Categories
1342:advokatino
1233:Report bug
1088:word order
880:<Ä: -->
785:Vocabulary
500:unasenceso
1635:Lau PIV,
1550:Kosinvita
1419:debatable
1256:Jansegers
1216:this tool
1209:this tool
853:phonology
613:Dissident
475:etc. the
92:Esperanto
1620:âTamfang
1606:emphasis
1596:contribs
1575:contribs
1492:geamikoj
1433:contribs
1400:Kahastok
1368:advokato
1338:advokato
1322:contribs
1222:Cheers.â
1104:. Thus,
1057:caballus
1041:kabbalah
812:unsigned
473:-ia, -ua
301:mariajar
297:spozigar
251:Finances
28:deletion
1645:transl.
1587:Munmula
1566:Munmula
1424:Munmula
1376:man-cat
1372:virkato
1313:Munmula
1303:changed
1284:KVenzke
1146:my edit
1120:Tamfang
1102:Spanish
1019:Tamfang
979:bubalus
939:Tamfang
925:Tamfang
908:Tamfang
849:phoneme
429:egĂłismo
413:OmnadĂa
272:spozulo
180:on the
58:B-class
1486:amikoj
1459:eunuch
1454:eĆnuko
1380:katiÄo
1359:katino
1297:Gender
1065:koruso
1053:cheval
1049:Kavala
1045:Kavalo
1037:kabalo
1015:kavalo
1011:kabalo
1007:Äevalo
975:bubalo
463:Yuu en
403:Yuu en
379:Yuu en
64:scale.
1614:manuo
1533:utrum
1480:amiko
1461:, or
1448:frato
1393:patro
1389:frato
1378:, or
1374:i.e.
904:PLATO
771:Chart
566:Naytz
531:Naytz
520:kwami
491:kwami
433:kwami
425:Muzéo
389:kwami
367:radio
323:kwami
305:spozo
293:spozo
284:kwami
276:spozo
1657:talk
1624:talk
1592:talk
1571:talk
1554:talk
1513:talk
1489:and
1469:gain
1464:damo
1457:, a
1429:talk
1407:talk
1355:kato
1318:talk
1288:talk
1260:talk
1124:talk
1075:talk
1061:Ä„oro
1043:and
1023:talk
995:talk
960:talk
943:talk
929:talk
912:talk
889:talk
865:talk
839:talk
820:talk
799:talk
617:Talk
586:talk
570:talk
550:talk
535:talk
509:Alih
479:and
457:and
449:and
373:and
361:and
319:-ulo
237:Note
34:was
1637:jes
1612:Äu
1498:ge-
1190:RfC
1160:to
1017:. â
1013:or
956:N-k
923:. â
885:N-k
417:dia
338:Jon
172:Mid
1672::
1659:)
1626:)
1598:)
1594:·
1577:)
1573:·
1556:)
1543:.
1515:)
1505:.
1435:)
1431:·
1324:)
1320:·
1290:)
1282:.
1262:)
1203:.
1198:}}
1194:{{
1126:)
1077:)
1069:--
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989:--
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401:--
90::
1655:(
1622:(
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1258:(
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1122:(
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837:(
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548:(
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481:u
477:i
459:u
455:i
451:w
447:y
421:i
375:w
371:y
363:u
359:i
355:r
222:.
204:.
184:.
70::
38:.
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