742:(in particular the "Ma." column, or "B" where "Ma." isn't present), the guide linked in the lede for the IPA transcription. I've myself had conflicts in the past over using the symbol a particular help guide prescribes, rather than ones which seemed to logically represent the word, but I think this case may just be one of the helpful IP editor using the symbols of Central/Western Catalan IPA rather than Balearic (and specifically Mallorcan), rather than a dispute of pronunciation. To wit, the guide for Balearic Catalan specifically gives surnames ending -ch as an example for /x/, while the distinction between /ɔ/ and /o/ relates to open/closed of the same sound. Can't ping IP editor but here if discussion is wanted.
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used symbols that are present in the
Spanish IPA table but to represent a different kind of sound (maybe even just closed vs open) than the table said, even though in practical usage it was correct. The symbols I used in this article, are based on which type of sound the table says they are, ironically done because I didn't want to have a debate with the editors who focus on IPA maintaining about using their tables correctly.
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to make users reveal personal information. I don’t know why you continued doing so after it was established as irrelevant to discussion and I advised you against speculating, so I will AGF that it’s just because you rambled off topic - but this means you could do it again out of habit, so I’ll warn you that you should not do so in future unless it’s actually necessary. I won’t give you a
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specifically cited the articles (in both this wiki and the
Catalan one) mentioning it, and I'm sorry they weren't sourced with works or cited correctly. This is why I cited other famous people with -ch at the end of their name that included their pronunciations in their article, to show how its more commonplace than people would think, since
1394:) (the first one is really generalist for all Catalan dialects, there is really nothing not written already here but the second is really really thorough and I can't genuinely recommend enough if you are interested in Majorcan particularly, I assume you don't know about their existance since you're probably American (eyeballing here)).
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Frankly I don't know if citing
Wiktionary is considered original research, I'm fairly knew to Knowledge (XXG). What I do know is that Wiktionary entries cite many other dictionaries, although I don't know if that counts (???). By that I meant to say that words whose pronunciation isn't in the IPA and
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Thanks for the reply. One last reminder (I am not
American, please, this information is known) - it’s not good form to be speculating on any user’s nationality (or knowledge) in general, especially in basically every comment. It’s, upfront, unnecessary, and can be seen as discriminatory or an attempt
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And for the third one, if it was centralized it would be /ʉ/ anyways before /y/, but again it seems a really faint distrinction that I've never heard or seen in my life (I've been more shocked about how
Majorcans pronounce /l/ in comparison to how Catalans do) and neither is documented (especially in
1141:
Reminder: we are debating the agreement of symbols in the
Balearic Catalan help table, and this article. Let's focus on that. If you can drop the OR, and we can go symbol by symbol if necessary. You seem to have done that for /k/ (Lluch), so I'm happy for that change to be made. Shall we do the rest?
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I'm in the process of a comment explaining, but I didn't just blindly apply the table. The OR thing is more like, saying "I know how these words are said" and "the history of this word means it's said like this" and similar, is not considered sufficient. I have even had someone disagree with me on a
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I don't really understand if the point of contention is that the
Catalan/Valencian and Insular Catalan tables mismatch a bit, they obviously do, since the vowel qualities change, and you seem to state that people use "symbols" in the IPA tables for different articles where they should not, (I do not
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I'm sorry if my initial post sounded really hostile/patronizing, my idea was more of really going into detail/elaborating on the topic because I assumed you had little knowledge for your reverts and comment, but yeah then I found out and learned more about how IPA tables work, even though my feeling
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however is with an open (therefore it should be ɔ, or rather more correct ɔ̞~ɒ even though those symbols aren't in the table so we should refrain from using them (?)), though you initially marked it as closed in the IPA transcription. I'm confused because you've said you pronounced it, and to you it
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as you have stated is wrong, it is not a dialectical difference, the sound is absolutely different and it is in no way an allophone and must not be mistaken as such, stressed ⟨o⟩'s are actually one of the few things where all
Catalan variants almost unanimously agree on always pronuncing it the same
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Right! And that is why I mentioned dictionaries which include IPA transcriptions for words that might not be in that table. I also understand that IPA tables go so far, that is why I questioned your choices on the "o"'s and "u", the felling I got is that you just chose whatever fit best the table,
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As I said, this is not about pronunciation, but about which table is used. This is because I have, as I mentioned, run into editing disputes before where I used correct symbols like you want, but they conflicted with the table guide, and basically it gets taken very seriously. I am not disagreeing
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Sorry, I'm typing out a comment (fairly slowly I suppose) - I can see why you're confused. And my hesitation is based on my experiences, which you won't have, generally in handling
Spanish IPA with non-Spanish speakers who follow the Spanish table sound-by-sound. That in an article or two, I have
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And yes, the basis of my edits is DCVB (as is
Wiktionary), and I always check them beforehand. The notes are kinda clear, except for the open vowels one, that honestly left me shocked, I've never heard any difference. I know your attemps were in good faith, however I would refrain from making any
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Yeah, this whole discussion seems confusing. If I can be honest to you, for me IPA templates work to thoroughly transcribe the article name (or whatever, obviously following the IPA template and not using any weird symbols), and then if you want to know more you click on the link to the Help:IPA
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For /o/ I'm puzzled with your comment. First off, yes, open vowels (and since you've lived in Majorca I think you can attest to it, especially comparing it to how Catalans or Valencians speak) in Majorcan are way more open that in any other variant of Catalan. In DCVB (and in Catalan sources) we
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Right, so I said I follow your explanation for /k/ in Lluch - note, I follow based on the Diccionari Català-Valencià-Balear. And while I think the help tables reserve the right to use different symbols (e.g. /x/ in the Latin American Spanish guide being "h"), the /k/ is of course present in the
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About your comment about the surnames, I'm glad you backed down on it, because honestly I'm shocked you never ran into any personally and knew this. It is common knowledge in all Catalan speaking territories, and again, saying it like this would sound like I'm making stuff up and that is why I
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Yes, we can go case by case if you want. But what I meant to say is that the table can't include all instances, as it is understandable. And both stressed ⟨o⟩'s and ⟨e⟩'s can be pronounced differently, even in words spelled the same (diacritical marks go so far). This is what I meant by using
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For the second point yeah, refer to DCVB (I would trust it with my life), especially if you are not a native speaker, not to sound pedantic, but eyeballing phonemes probably is not the best idea, especially if you are not fluent in the language currently. If you are interested, there is some
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I'm not so sure you are a native Catalan speaker (I am, and I know Majorcan Catalan as well), but as for final -ch goes, the thing is: it depends. I see you are trying to religiously follow the IPA table for Insular Catalan, which by the way, it doesn't differ as much from the normal
1338:, by the way). I was reading the source of such quote (Recasens Vives (1996:66, 141)), particularly page 141, and it states that it presents the same opening in Majorcan as Central Catalan, Valencian, all being more open than Spanish. Stating that open vowels are "a little bit" (
808:. Obviously nowadays they do know how to make that sound, but the point still stands, and it still is a consonant that does not natively exist in Catalan and is not used in unless referring to Spanish names/surnames or German/foreign ones, this is why it's under that section
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For the /y/, does more "open" mean more "fronted"? Aren't those totally diferent things?? I've never heard of any Catalan assimilation or whatnot creating /y/ sounds. Lluch to me pronuncing it is /ʎuk/, and DCVB states the same (which was created and mainly compiled by a
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1. The guide (and note, unless I've read it wrong) seem to be attesting /æ/ as wholesale Majorcan, not only Felanitx, so perhaps that needs updating. 2. IDK 3. As said, the note confused me somewhat based on the description of being open, but I was focused more on
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So again, it is the IPA table failing to show those examples, but in any way, the fact that it is under the "Marginal consonants" means that it is not a rule for those specific examples, but rather an exception to the rule. And it must be applied as such.
1715:, the IPA table was certainly made using original research, and IPA transcriptions are in this thin line where they require people transcribing something whose IPA transcription might not have been published in an article or something that can be cited.
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Yeah, don't worry, your experience and mine in terms of Knowledge (XXG) IPA editing are obviously different. Let's put it this way, your version is probably going to stay and the discussion is here if anyone stumbles across the article and objects.
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That is to say, I would not have issue with your edits, but so far your explanations aren't really in reference to the table the IPA has to agree with... and I don't know why I'm questioning it really, except being used to debating the IPA.
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dictionary, which includes IPA transcriptions for almost all Catalan words in all its variants, note that the dictionary is from a century ago). The existance of the ⟨ch⟩ digraph for /k/ is also attested in this Knowledge (XXG), see
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Tables can never include all examples, but that isn't really the main point of them (though helpful, the idea is to check which sound is being used - e.g. "a" and "æ" under the Ma. column both wikilink to slightly different sounds).
1401:, however that dialect is moribund nowadays, and that has more to do with the vowel being palatalized by /c/ /ɟ/ preceding sounds. In any case, casa is still pronunced with an /a/, nor an /æ/ or /ɛ/, so its safe to assume its only
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Do you think maybe we should/or could add an example under /k/ for any of those surnames in both Insular Catalan and Catalan/Valencian IPA pages to clear any doubt for future curious people? I mean, they are really commonplace.
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innovative "assimilations" or assumptions (as a native speaker honestly I wouldn't dare either lol) and whatnot and just sticking to what DCVB says, as well as the audio pronunciation (it is provided and is really clear).
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template, where you may know more, but just for general knowledge and whatnot. This is why I'm confused about following the IPA template and why in my original comment I mentioned you following "religiously" the table.
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at all, it's origins are the Catalan word and that is why I cited it as such, again I didn't want to sound condescending or anything like that, I just meant to clear any doubts around that specifically citing sources.
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suffered a fully fledged vowel shift, which did not happen in the rest of Majorca, and as such we should refer to , which is the commonplace in the rest of the island and specifically where the person in question is
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attests as well), and the list would go on for all Catalan words that end in a final /k/ sound. And in no way would those words be pronounced /x/, neither in Majorcan Catalan. (This can be attested as well with the
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pronounced /x/. This is why in the Help:IPA table it is under the "Marginal consonants" section, i.e. the non-native sounds that speakers might be able to make (which by the way also exists in the Catalan/Valencian
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That said, I will ask if your view is the notes are unclear or (my view) they didn't give a straight 'answer' in these cases and my attempts to use them to decide which sound it seemed the table advised didn't
820:). This is because before Catalan orthography was standardized in the 20th century, it was commonplace (as an unwritten rule) to write final /k/ sounds as ⟨ch⟩ instead of just ⟨c⟩, thus people would write
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Now, in Catalan, ⟨ch⟩ also exists (which the table fails to show, this however does not negate its existance) word-finally in surnames as a fosillized spelling of a final /k/ sound (you can see that in
804:. Because Catalan speakers a couple centuries ago did not know how to make a /x/ sound because many did not know Spanish, they turned it into the closest sound they knew, which was a /k/, thus coining
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tell you how it is correctly pronounced, however you can't extrapolate that to all instances and affirm that Coll is /o/ rather than /ɔ/. And just to be clear, the distinction in stressed quality is
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with you on the pronunciation, so I feel like a long comment discussing that is rather irrelevant. You also insisting that dictionaries be used (for what? - not that it matters) is an invocation of
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is pronounced /y/. This sound does not exist in Catalan or Spanish/speakers do not know how to make such sound. The Insular Catalan/Catalan IPA table does not even show that vowel (except for
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that you (as you've said) might have had doubts about should probably be looked up to ensure that they are correct, instead of just outright applying the table as seems the case with
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to me too, this is why I made such comment. But I obviously checked sources beforehand, this is why I was weirded out about you reversing that change and doubling down on the table.
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Just because I might as well /æ/ is also up to discussion, as the table shows it can also be pronounced /a/ in Majorcan Catalan, so I don't know why you specifically chose /æ/.
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I hope this clears things up, I think I have been comprehensive enough, however I can clear up any more doubts or curiosities of Catalan/Majorcan that you may have as well.
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For /æ/, as you have mentioned in Majorcan it is further fronted that in Valencian/Catalonia Catalan, so instead of being it is , note here that , as I mentioned (and as
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I mention in a comment below that the vowel/semi-vowels I put in the IPA originally were based on the sounds the table says each represents. These ultimately link to
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1342:) more open in Valencian, Majorcan and Minorcan than the rest. And stating that /u/ is more closed in the rest. I fail to see how that justifies an outright /y/.
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Fair enough! And that's why I explained that it was a foreign name that should be treated differently and rules should not be applied to it similarly to others.
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Again, it's not about knowledge, Domenech is incredibly common for example, but there was a surname ending -ch as an example in the tables, so I went with it.
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know which symbol I used that does not exist in Insular Catalan). However my initial edits did not conflate with the initial table, this is why I'm confused?
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1215:(Old Catalan orthography and an unsourced sentence about surnames may be the general context for your reasoning, but that would still foundationally be OR).
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31:) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
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led me to question the transformation of /u/, so I again tested saying the word. Assimilation of the "u" into "Llu" produced the frontal sound described.
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The /x/ sound does not exist natively in Catalan, we know it by virtue of being a sound in Spanish and in foreign languages, such is the case for
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Anyways, the latter one talks about /a/ sometimes having a palatalized character and ending up being pronunced /ɛ/, this is particularly true in
947:'s are pronounced /o/. This is why in the Insular Catalan table it differs between Ma., Mi., and Ib., with some pronouncing unstressed <o: -->
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In Catalan ch represents final sound. In the past it was widely used, but nowadays it is only present in some surnames (e.g. Domènech, Albiach).
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sounded as closed? In DCVB and Wiktionary it states it's open, the audio also sounds clearly open. (Also wouldn't sounding it off be considered
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Finally, it isn't actually relevant, but I have used Catalan over a decade and lived in the Balearics, and your apparent attempts to demean(?)
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it shows both /ɔ/ and /o/ in the Insular Catalan table, because we pronounce them differently despite using the same grapheme ⟨o⟩), please
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On the other point, Catalan is extremely regular in those instances, even where they are in isolation. And this is why I mentioned
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unwritten phonotactic rules about the quality/distribution of open and closed vowels (influenced by the consonants following it),
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In Catalan orthography however we don't always show how a stressed vowel might be pronounced. For instance you would not know if
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is we kept on having a circular argument here, especially with the tables-to-real IPA Catch-22, not that it matters anymore.
681:-speaking countries on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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That's why my initial doubts about your knowledge of Catalan were about, sorry if I sounded patronizing or condescending.
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Also I didn't mean to be passive aggressive with that comment but rather that I think I elaborated too much on the topic.
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refer to a dictionary that includes IPA transcriptions, even more if you are not a native speaker (as it seems the case).
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Catalan IPA transcription when it was the same as that published by esAdir, because of sounds apparently not matching.
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IPA transcription) nor is present in the current table, so I would refrain from such innovations for the time being.
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Don't worry about reverts if we're discussing, as long as there's good faith to find the ideal solution, it's good.
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usually annotate them as rather than but whatever, it's probably more correct the latter way. The word
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for stressed vowel qualities (⟨o⟩'s and ⟨e⟩'s in this case) if you do not know (since even for <o: -->
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Wiktionary. And I do not understand how exactly you made the decision to choose one "o" over another.
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42:. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
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Oh! You meant for instance transcribing elles in transcriptions where yeísmo is present I suppose?
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one without excluding the more commonplace other, regardless, I was skimming through my books both
872:" This is why I included those surname examples in my edit summaries, among many others, such as
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is a great source and more than enough for what you will need, but I also can't recommend enough
963:(very) is pronounced with /ɔ/ and /o/ unless you knew that word pronunciation, the same goes for
46:.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see
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Anyways, I'm glad we had a civil conversion and I hope we both learned from each other (I did!).
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are not helpful or productive. If the issue was pronunciation, it may be fair to mention that
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states /a/ is in Majorcan ( in most Catalan dialects), while is only found in the town of
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Yes! Sorry I reversed your edits I didn't see this response! But I'm happy to debate.
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1080:- I didn't say that anywhere? Do you mean Lluch? If so, based on the preceding sound.
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in all places I managed to check was with an open o sound, and that way sounded odd
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I trust DCVB, so if that's the basis of your edits, I think we can agree on that.
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ll), the difference is closed (/o/) or open (/ɔ/), and the only directive is that
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I do not know how you came up with the idea that the ⟨u⟩ in Buch is pronounced /y/
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because of how comprehensive it is with transcriptions for all Catalan varieties.
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I think I have been comprehensive enough, however I can clear up any more doubts
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In Valencian and most Balearic dialects /i, u/ are further open and centralized
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https://mascaro-uab.weebly.com/uploads/4/0/9/2/40925737/efectes_accentuals.pdf
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In Majorcan the distinction between /ɔ/ and /o/ exists and is the same as in
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Now for the Coll part, it is without a doubt an open /ɔ/. As it is stated in
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The open-mid /ɛ/ and /ɔ/ are lower in Majorcan, Minorcan and Valencian.
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Excuse my ignorance, but can't I just outright edit the Help:IPA pages?
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and discounts that dictionaries were used to create the tables' guides.
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Also, I do not know how you came up with the idea that the ⟨u⟩ in
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And finishing up, no, you should not be using the tables symbols
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from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
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To me the fact that it shows both means that it includes the
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ch), the difference is frontal (/y/) or back (/u/). The note
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warning template, but now that you know, take it seriously.
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between /ɔ/ and /o/ relates to open/closed of the same sound
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Hi! I think you are talking about me! I've just seen you've
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If you want to suggest making that addition, you can go to
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The vowel /a/ is further fronted and closed in Majorcan.
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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Catalan-speaking countries
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Low-importance biography (sports and games) articles
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1895:Women's football task force articles
1850:Sports and games work group articles
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301:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Football
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140:This article is within the scope of
1830:Biography articles of living people
967:. The IPA table in those instances
697:Catalan-speaking countries articles
619:Women's association football portal
378:Women's association football portal
80:It is of interest to the following
1870:C-Class football in Spain articles
1298:Balearic Catalan#Phonetic_features
1049:Balearic Catalan#Phonetic features
569:Template:WikiProject Women's sport
14:
1885:C-Class Women's football articles
998:Diccionari Català-Valencià-Balear
923:Diccionari Català-Valencià-Balear
861:Diccionari Català-Valencià-Balear
470:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Spain
1865:Low-importance football articles
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767:IPA table for Catalan/Valencian
711:This article has been rated as
586:This article has been rated as
490:This article has been rated as
386:the women's football task force
346:the Spanish football task force
321:This article has been rated as
207:the sports and games work group
1920:C-Class Women's sport articles
1855:WikiProject Biography articles
1263:I then tested saying the word.
1100:Oh yeah sorry, I meant Lluch.
866:Ch_(digraph)#Romance_languages
167:Template:WikiProject Biography
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1900:WikiProject Football articles
1304:dialect of Majorcan Catalan (
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685:and see a list of open tasks.
624:This article is supported by
464:and see a list of open tasks.
383:This article is supported by
343:This article is supported by
304:Template:WikiProject Football
295:and see a list of open tasks.
204:This article is supported by
24:biographies of living persons
1249:ta), I referred to the note
1084:/æ/ is also up to discussion
798:), which comes from Spanish
152:contribute to the discussion
1915:All WikiProject Spain pages
921:and the very comprehensive
276:Association football portal
36:must be removed immediately
1961:
1930:WikiProject Women articles
1835:C-Class biography articles
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651:Catalan-speaking countries
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