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1877:, if you can, drop me a quick line here to let me know when you're done or taking a break from your current edits. I'm drafting some additions and further changes to the "Society" section, but I'll wait til you're done in order to make sure our edits don't conflict. Take your time though, no hurry. Thanks. (PS: I agree that the "Reforms of Almanzor" section should be merged somehow with the political history section. Even if we end up with an uneven history section in terms of some topics being covered more heavily, this can be fixed by expanding other topics later.)
1292:"Umayyad state of Córdoba" is fine too, though it seems less common and recognizable. I'd prefer "Umayyads of Córdoba" for that reason, but don't take this as a strong objection; "Umayyad state of Córdoba" would be my second choice among our suggestions so far. (Though be sure to use lowercase for "state".) Both are clearer than "Umayyad Cordoba" I think, and either would suit our immediate purposes for merging. There's still time to wait before this discussion should close, so maybe we'll see what others think. Thanks,
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1449:, I'm good with you both taking charge on the merge whenever since you're both much more experienced with that and implementing Islamic history on Knowledge then I am. I'll still work with you both on it though. I guess I do have a couple questions/add-on statements though about the merges to begin our disscussion of how to do it.
2118:"Ummayud state of Cordoba", which gives only 199 hits on Google books compared to "Caliphate of Cordoba", which gives over 5,000 hits. There are other articles which cover a subject that has undergone a name change at some point in its time, but they usually opt to use the later name as the article title, such as
1766:
Another issue of importance. I did not move this
Wikimedia Commons file seen to the right onto this page. The obvious issue is that there's a black sploch obscuring the top of the Emirate, ruining the map. This seems to be some recent issue as I swear I don't remember seeing it there a few weeks ago.
1065:; mirroring a bit the current name formats but making it clearer that it's about the regime, not the city. "Umayyad al-Andalus" would be precise as well, but might feel less natural for unfamiliar readers? I would prefer to avoid a title with "Spain" as it would run into many of the same arguments as
1651:
I'm adding various items that'll need to be addressed later after the merge is done, that I may have trouble with. Firstly, here are the older Arabic/native names listed in the template and lede respectivally. Someone proficent with Arabic and other langauges will likely need to add a new version of
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because we have no overall article for the entire period/state of the
Umayyads in al-Andalus, which makes it annoying when trying to link to that full topic because you have to either link both or semi-arbitrarily pick one of two subdivisions. Neither article is very long, so it would be easy enough
1785:
Yeah I'm noticing that now too. You're right, it looked fine until recently. Hmm. Maybe the data in the image is dependent on some other data linked to it elsewhere, but I'm not familiar with what that would be. In the meantime, keep the
Caliphate-era map for the infobox, and I was going to suggest
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recommends a week or more before closing the discussion (so let's say no sooner than July 16 to be safe, or longer if we need more time to discuss). If no one else comments, then yes we can simply wrap up by confirming the final details between the three of us and then proceeding. I'm also happy to
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Whatever name we settle on, I think it must inevitably pivot around the dynasty's name, since what defines this political period is the
Umayyad dynasty. So "Umayyad al-Andalus", "Umayyads of Córdoba", etc all seem like better options to me. (PS: keep in mind there are no "official" names available
2117:
I think we should move this to the
Caliphate of Cordoba as it is the indisputable common name used in sources. I've noticed a concern regarding its usage as it was the official name for the later period, however I would consider the title to be much better than the rarely used awkward construct of
2001:
I did another round of fusing info together and bits of copyediting in the politcal history section. I made sure not to remove any claims or citations mentioned in the various paragraphs. I did add a few tags though. A few minor grammatical issues might've slipped my notice as I was trying to cut
1971:
In my editing, there was a section I cut out which mentioned "Black slaves" being amoung the portions of the
Cordoban army. I cut out that section because it was largely a rephrasing of a later and better written section. I attached the only citation on that section to that other one. This was the
2098:
Yeah that was our concern for "Umayyad al-Andalus". On the other hand, if there is indeed more support for that, we can still pick that and simply ensure that the scope of the article is made clear in the lead (e.g. opening sentence already states "756 to 1031"). One can reasonably argue that the
1912:
Alright, I'm done for now with formatting edits and making the writing less sloppy. The
Reforms section should make an easier read. I did find one sentence however, that made so little sense to me that I didn't know how to rewrite it without guessing on some facts. If you want to look at it, it's
1461:
4) After the merge is complete, I'm also going to add an
Archive for the talk page, and set up some automated archiving. I'm doing it because even though the talks are pretty small at the moment, they take up space in the content section. I'd appreciate if you'd let me do that so I can get some
1942:
Update: Mostly finished on my end as well, aside from any further copy-editing. As a non-urgent task, I'd also like to convert more of the citations to sfn format (at least for sources where we cite multiple different pages at different points), so we can keep a little more consistency in this
1033:
A merger makes sense to me. The polities are identical, just with the technical distinction of proclaiming itself a caliphate. I'm not sure about "Umayyad
Cordoba" though. If the title is going to go descriptive, I think just "Umayyad Spain" would be better. It's more recognisable, and better
2162:
In this case, I think that's a very non-ideal scenario. The literature really only uses caliphate/caliph/caliphal to refer to the 10th century, and using this name for the entire topic would lead to confusion, especially among unfamiliar readers/editors who are likely to start using the term
2221:
About "Umayyads of
Cordoba", I'll repeat a general point one last time, but it's fine if no one else is convinced: in this context, the idea that the "dynasty" and the "state" are different topics is a Knowledge contrivance. This is a dynastic state and reliable sources (including scholarly
2260:, no? It seems every title has a problem ("Umayyad al-Andalus", "Umayyad Córdoba", "Emirate/Caliphate of Córdoba") if we are looking to describe the more-or-less unified single state that ruled al-Andalus in defiance of the Abbasids from the mid-8th century until its 11th-century collapse.
1139:
The trouble with switching to a "dynasty" title is that it is less natural when describing the state, as opposed to the dynasty specifically. It is usually the title of a dynasty article spun off from the state to which they are attached. I actually think it might be better to sit at
1719:
Honestly, these and many of other "Arabic" names you see in similar articles appear to just be direct translations of the modern names and/or English titles used on Knowledge, rather than the contemporary Arabic names of the states in question. (We also discussed a similar issue at
1017:
doesn't give clear instructions on which talk page to use when there isn't a clear merge destination. Since this article has more visitors and page watchers, it seems best to host the discussion here for maximum visibility. If there are any problems with this, let me
1820:
Should all of the categories for the two previous titles be merged under the new title? For example, both former articles have architecture categories associated with their distinct periods – should this be merged into a single architecture category for the "state"?
2181:"Ummayads of Cordoba" would change the scope of this article to revolve around the dynasty rather than the kingdom itself, while article is currently centred on the kingdom. I would suggest "Ummayad Còrdoba" here, which is a construct similar to other articles like
930:
The result of this discussion was that a merge should be followed through, with items and information moved from the Emirate of Córdoba to Caliphate of Córdoba page, with the latter page renamed. Consensus determined the best name for the new page would be
982:. Alongside that, both the Emirate and Caliphate share significant cultural, societal, and political characteristics that should be explained at once in one article. It would also help boost the Emirate as a topic on Knowledge. I noticed that the
2048:
That thought (about proliferation) has occurred to me as well, but the title is more or less provisional. I don't think we can stick with the former "Caliphate of Córdoba" in this fuller scope, but I'm sure there are better titles we can choose.
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However, looking at it also made me notice an underlying issue. There's no clue as to what it's date is supposed to be. On the Emirate's Knowledge page, it said the map depicts 929. However, that can't be right, because in the upper right the
2032:
I dont't like it. It is going to cause the proliferation of the exact phrase "Umayyad state of Córdoba" everywhere. Moreover, it creates an ugly lead paragraph. In my opinion, there was no need to move the page regardless of the merger.
1892:
I'm working on the Reforms of Almanzor section. I moved it up to the "Politcal history" section. Right now I'm focused on trimming the Almanzor section down, because there's a lot of run-on's, unnessesary wordage, and repeated info. I'm
1183:) exemplify that "Umayyad Cordoba" might indeed be primarily understood as the city specifically. It's common on Knowledge and even more so in scholarly sources to refer to medieval Islamic states/periods primarily by dynasty (e.g.
2063:
I like the merger to be honest, because the division always felt artificial, especially since it fell in the reign of the same person. On the name, perhaps 'Umayyad al-Andalus' or 'Al-Andalus under the Umayyads' would be better?
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1927:
Ok, thanks! Yes, I imagine there are many details here and there that will need another look at some point. I'm focusing on the Society/Culture sections for now. Maybe in the future I'll try to improve the history section.
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article already that deals with the ruling family, I think we're good here with any reasonable title that could only refer to the relevant Andalusi period/polity. So, although it feels unimaginative, "Umayyads of Córdoba"
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focused on fact-checking or source-checking the statments, just b/c a lot of the writing makes it hard exactly what is even being said. As well I'm moving stuff from that section to other portions on Politcal history.
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As we discussed in the merge talk above, when we looked at the sources, "Umayyad Cordoba" is more likely to refer to the city itself and its own historical period. "Umayyad al-Andalus" would work better again in this
1458:
3) After an article is moved/renamed, do links to the previous two articles on other pages automatically change, are they done by bots, or do they need to be changed manually? Same question about redirects?
1986:
They were indeed purchased and used in the army. This was a detail I was going to add in the Society section as well (where other slaves are mentioned), but I needed another source, which I've now found.
1455:
2) I imagine this article will need to be reevaluated on its content assessment scale, especially because it's Level 4. Does one of us need to notify a more experienced editor to re-review the page?
1350:) about the best way to merge two articles into a new title, as we're proposing here. Maybe one of you already knows, but I figured it was worth getting some community recommendations in advance.
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recently.) In my view, these are not worth retaining unless the article discusses the names actually used in historical Arabic sources; though this can be discussed another time too, if needed.
1591:
and I'm going to start the work with the merging of the articles today. I'll be doing it the way we agreed to (moving the items from Emirate to Caliphate), but I'll just take it a bit slowly.
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I'm going to do a bit more with the Almonzor section, mainly just more copyediting and more making the general writing less sloppy. I noticed inconsistencies with how numbers are displayed.
1526:
Emirate of Córdoba here, then move this article to the desired new name, and then do some basic clean up of the content (i.e. integrate the two texts, update the lead, etc). Any links to
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As others said above, these two things are the same state/dynasty. The current split between the two has been mostly workable, but it's awkward for Knowledge's encyclopedic structure and
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only mention of that, so I'm not sure how true it is, but it might be worth looking into to see how true it is. I'm writing this as a note for me as well, in case I forget.
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delineates the geography as country-level, unlike "Cordoba", which outside of the context of "emirate of" or "caliphate of" could be readily confused with the city name.
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works as a catch-all that can have both the other terms redirecting in. I think the advantages of having a common term probably outweigh the minor city confusion issue.
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Yeah I thought about the same thing (i.e. confusion with the post-711 years) after I wrote that, and I agree. "Umayyads of Córdoba" is slightly better in terms of
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I'm good with that. Imo I have nothing really to contribute to a future discusssion since I only know English unfortunately. I'll trust your take on it.
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I'm fine with that. I also get the sense that Umayyad Cordoba would be fine on second reference when referring to the polity. What do you both think?
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I'm happy to perform the merge if you want, either tomorrow night or on the weekend. Essentially, we more or less bluntly copy all the content from
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1) Should we create a separate discussion on this talk page to discuss how to merge? If so, feel free to answer my below questions there.
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I guess the last thing to do before the merge now is to finalize the choice of name for the merged article before we perform the move.
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and left a message there directing editors here instead, so we can have a single discussion where consensus can be determined.
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is significant, it should be noted that the state was ruled by a contiguous dynasty up to its collapse. For a comparion, the
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for a title like "Umayyad al-Andalus" would still be the Umayyads of Cordoba rather than the brief period right after 711.
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as the base name, with the technical renaming of itself as a caliphate being simply covered in the text, lead and infobox.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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I'm more referring to the letter rating for how good the article looks. Here, it's a B, but Emirate is a Start-Class.
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Your bolded name suggestion makes the most sense because the new article should begin the polity at its founding by
375:-related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Note: This was a discussion originally present on the Emirate of Córdoba's talk page moved as a part of a merger.
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And, after you're done with the merge just tell us so we can look over it and I can set up the archive pages.
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who all agree that a merge is necessary. How long should we wait for others to respond before doing anything?
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It probably wouldn't be a major issue. Any confusion with the city could be resolved readily with a hatnote.
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to consolidate them into one and hopefully encourage more integrated improvements to the whole topic.
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Since the proposal is to merge to this page, the vital article status shouldn't really be affected.
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Yeah, there may not be a perfectly satisfying option. I think that the results in that last link (
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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all the run-on sentences, but other than that, it should read better now than it did before.
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Ideally I think yes, unless there's a logical reason for specific cases to be kept separate.
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into one article, titled Umayyad Cordoba, or something similar. While holding the title of
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is labeled, which was gone by that year. The Commons' file doesn't list a date either.
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than "Umayyad dynasty of Córdoba", but otherwise I have no preference between the two.
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here, to my knowledge, all of the options are merely historiographical designations.)
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I wouldn't worry too much about the rating shown on the talk page; unless it's a
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inserting the Emirate-era map (once fixed) in the relevant history section.
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experience with it. I only say that in case either of you had the same idea.
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I agree that copying into the more edited and more viewed page makes sense.
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That was my instinct as well. Thank you for your quick and clear response!
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as another good title with similar connotations to the one you suggested.
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To avoid a split discussion, I've removed the copy of this proposal at
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Talk:Caliphate of Córdoba#Proposing merger on Umayyad Cordoba articles
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PS: It's happening to the other versions of this file too, e.g. the
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with me. I guess I'm not reading the right history works. Ok, maybe
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is still one article despite the fact its rulers took the title of
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is edited rarely, with discussions on its talk page even rarer.
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of sources for that are specifically talking about the city.
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My recommendation for the new name would be something like
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The one issue to keep in mind with those titles is we are
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should still go into the background. I might also suggest
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for discussion of a proposed merger of this article with
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Yes, I think you're right. It means the city often. Try
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will be redirected here, so it shouldn't be a problem.
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A fact from this article was featured on Knowledge's
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
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1342:By the way, I posted a quick technical question at
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980:Ottoman-Mamluk War (1516-1517)
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