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the
Gregorian calendar came into effect. Until that time they were on the Julian calendar which was 11 days behind the Gregorian calendar. The article also quotes a stone plaque beneath the center of St. Paul's Cathedral that alledgedly says, "SUBTUS CONDITUR HUIUS ECCLESIÆ ET VRBIS CONDITOR CHRISTOPHORUS WREN, QUI VIXIT ANNOS ULTRA NONAGINTA, NON SIBI SED BONO PUBLICO. LECTOR SI MONUMENTUM REQUIRIS CIRCUMSPICE Obijt XXV Feb: An°: MDCCXXIII Æt: XCI." Somebody please provide a photo of that plaque, because if it really does say 1723 in Roman numerals, that means he was 92, not 91, when he died. This has been discussed many a time on this talk page until sometime recently when it was removed. Until such time as it is fixed to the proper dates and protected from being changed by some idiot who doesn't know a damn thing about history and how things worked in the England of the middle ages to Rennaisance period and thinks January 1st has always been New Years Day since time immemorial.
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2447:- An architect is a visual artist, and like any other visual artist, their most notable works should be adequately presented in the article about them. Not only does the altered version remove significant works from the gallery, but it's formatting is very poor, and does not afford the reader a good look at the buildings. This is a grave disservice to the reader. In addition, some of the replacement images, although they may be technically better, are visually inferior to the current images. In all, the current gallery serves the reader much better than the altered version, and is a more rounded representation of Wren's work.
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article and can be viewed by users who are so inclined, or on the pages that are devoted in their entirety to each of these structures. The included images should also note the dates of construction and be ordered chronologically, as I had so thoroughly done. I also (can’t believe I have to say this)
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Fewer buildings: If a building is already featured elsewhere in the article, I'd agree it doesn't need to go in the gallery as well. However, I don't think we need to limit the number of buildings featured in the gallery and I think doing so is likely to cause future conflict as to which buildings to
3570:
What is the problem here people? His date of death is listed as 8 March 1723 . WRONG! Old style should state 25 February 1722! Again for those who don't know or don't care about actual history, England started the new year on 25 March starting from around the 12th or 13th century until 1753 when
3062:, it's about the sweeping changes made by one editor to the gallery without prior discussion. Separate discussions can be held regarding which images are best to represent which buildings outside the scope of the RfC, but the size and formatting of the galleries is what is being considered here.
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further undermines the argument for any more than, say, 25 images within a single gallery. Any reader, so inclined, can simply visit the aforementioned page and view 85+ images of Wren's work in chronological order. As for the images that are selected, in accordance with what is quite clearly
3234:
St Bride's, noted as "one of Wren's finest churches" is known for the "significant development" of "the provision of side galleries." Which of these two images better captures this important work and its place in Wren's architectural practice? Note that the second image has been selected as a
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to explicitly allow encyclopediac galleries said that they were not opposed to galleries within articles but would delete the same content in standalone articles. Putting the gallery into list form reduces the probability of deletion, but it also reduces the visual appeal of the images. —
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Specific images: We can definitely still explore which are the best images to use for each building separately. Beyond My Ken says this isn't a discussion about the specific images, but if there are featured images of some of the buildings, I imagine those are very likely the best ones to
2781:: NOTAGALLERY is about images without context. In an article about an architect, the context for the images is provided by the text of the article, and the images provide visual context for the ideas and descriptions in the writing. In short, there is no violation of NOTAGALLERY.
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I would lastly like to stress (again kind of at a loss here) that the content of galleries should accurately reflect their titles. Obviously, neither the Blue Plaque nor
Bankside House are Wren’s works. BMKs reversion thus not only violates Knowledge (XXG)’s clear rules regarding
2487:- The images in the current gallery are much prettier. That sounds dumb, but in an aesthetic pursuit like architecture, I guess that must count for something. As BMK says, they give a better look at the buildings. As for how representative they are, I can't comment.
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In order to discourage indiscriminate growth, should we limit images to one per building? Or, where appropriate, two per building (interior and exterior)? Should we avoid illustrating a building in the gallery if it has already been illustrated in the body of the
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The duplication of images that are already on this page above and the poor formatting of this comment are the fault of
Filetime, who refused to allow me to correct them. As with their image choices for the article, their judgment in this matter is extremely poor.
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believe that when available, images evaluated as quality and featured images should be used. Many of the images that BMK reverted back into the article are of abject technical quality (blurry, over or under exposed, not corrected for perspective distortion.)
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No, I did not "duplicate an entire discussion". I replaced a discussion that you started and invited your friends to participate in with a formal RfC in which everyone in multiple WikiProjects was provided a neutral pointer to. Them's different animals.
2731:, which requires that collections of images have encyclopediac value and does not mandate any limit to the number of images. If we think 57 images is too many, we should do that based on the needs of the article rather than based on a misreading of
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seems to believe that a gallery of 57 images, many of which do not even depict Wren’s work, is appropriate for the ‘’’Gallery of architectural work’’’ section. The gallery by BMK includes as many as 3 images of the same building as well as many
3300:
has pointed out, there are actually a number of different questions at issue, and it would be helpful to separate them out. To my mind, they are as follows (and I will refrain from offering my own opinions on any of them at this stage):
3516:
From the point of view of the best organisation of this material, I might prefer to have separate articles with galleries of his work, but such articles have often been taken to AfD again and again until they are deleted. See, e.g.,
3206:, if someone asked you for a representative image of the interior of a building, which of these would you show them? Note that the painting on the ceiling is not original (1708, by William Snow) and was unpainted as Wren designed it.
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I would add that the replacement of individual images can certainly be discussed outside the scope of this RfC, which seeks only to deal with the wholesale changes to the gallery made -- without discussion -- by one editor.
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2604:- I agree that a gallery of an artist's work should be restricted to those works and not include images like the plaque photos (I really don't think they're informative to include in an encyclopaedia article anyway).
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This RFC is about whether images of architectural works should be ordered chronologically and whether featured and quality images should be included in place of those which are as few as 600 px wide.
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The article should contain some detailed reference to the attitude to Wren in the
Victorian era, and to the fact that many of his churches in the City of London were demolished in the 19th century.
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Once again, these comments are not relevant to the question which has been asked here, which goes to the format and size of the gallery, and does not inquire about the choice of individual images.
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2611:- having multiple photos of one building (e.g. five of the exterior of St Paul's) is less desirable on the architect's page than it would be on, say, an article about that particular building.
2618:- the default gallery mode in the second gallery shrinks the images to similar sizes and makes it much easier (for me anyway) to look through (which might be why it's the default appearance).
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given that they are "Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics)" and are all pinged regardless of their opinions.
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2641:, using the second gallery in chronological order, with up to one exterior and one interior image per building, but including all of the buildings from the first gallery?
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3462:. A few of the images in question could reasonably be relocated to appropriate places in the body of this article, which at present is a bit text-heavy.
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3175:'s intention wasn't to inappropriately canvas, just to get the input from some other editors who have recently been discussing a very similar topic. --
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Is it preferable to format the gallery in default "gallery" mode (as the alternative version does), or in "packed" mode (as the current version does)?
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Would anyone else like to contribute before I remove the gallery and add 3-5 inline images in accordance with the current majority opinion?
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we shouldn't try to reduplicate the list article by having a gallery on this page at all, and only have the images used alongside the text.
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You literally duplicated an entire discussion. If you are so worried about repeated content, engage with the thorough discussion above.
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have a lot of enthusiasm and passion for this issue but I sense things are getting a little heated. I'd like to remind everyone of the
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The formatting of the first gallery is better but because 57 images is too many I'm leaning yes for the more reasonable image count.
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Interior/exterior: Where there are interior images in the second gallery, I think it would be informative to also have an exterior.
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who have similarly expressed preferences regarding images relating to Wren’s work (explicitly permitted in the rules laid out at
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3454:: the gallery is unnecessary. This article is primarily about the man rather than his works: for the latter, we have not only
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has done, or perhaps thematically (separating religious from secular, for example)? Or do we want to maintain a random order?
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or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the
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content on
Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the
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guidance, particularly the advice to disengage, rest, and revisit, which I have personally found very helpful in the past!
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I was not aware there was a separate List of works by
Christopher Wren. Following the precedent set by other pages (e.g.
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Should we set a limit on the size of the gallery, with a view to avoiding an indiscriminate collection of images (per
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Should the gallery include images that relate to Wren, but do not illustrate his buildings (e.g. plaques)?
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No, as the number of images is way too many. It certainly needs reworking, but not with a similar number.
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Neutral pointers to this discussion have been placed on the talk pages of the WikiProjects listed above.
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Images evaluated as quality and featured images are such. Furthermore, 57 images is a gross violation of
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Once we've reached a consensus on those points, we can perhaps turn to the merits of individual images.
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on
Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on
Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on
Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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3369:, with regards to question 1 (a limit on the size of the gallery), I think that the newly created
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Should the gallery in this article be changed from the current version to the altered version?
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Is it helpful to arrange the images systematically in some way – e.g. chronologically, as
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asked for comment on the format of the gallery, and not about the specific images used. --
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featured images, meaning it is "considered one of the finest images" on Commons.
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for which quality and even featured images exist. I am of the opinion that given
2663:- The current images provides a better view and representation of the buildings.
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I think this is actually asking several questions, so I'm going to break it down.
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Wren Library, Trinity College, Cambridge University, from the river
592:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
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Thank you for that clarification as to what the "question" is,
3110:
am the editor asking the question, so its about that question.
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Having thought about it some more, I'm inclined to agree with
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Just a reminder to neutral participants here that this RfC is
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3028:: I'd here like to ping major editors as well as editors to
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Knowledge (XXG) talk:What Knowledge (XXG) is not/galleries
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Christopher Wren's house plaque, its claims disproved by
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this thorough explanation that BMK conveniently left out
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Ah yes, time immemorial. I've forgotten when that was.
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Automatically assessed University of Oxford articles
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3683:Knowledge (XXG) level-4 vital articles in People
349:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject University of Oxford
33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
1936:Sir John Moore Church of England Primary School
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481:History of Science Collaboration of the Month
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3673:Knowledge (XXG) vital articles in People
3593:... bit like spelling ('center' .... ?)
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3420:...) I would go further and suggest
2727:- either gallery is consistent with
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2621:but with the following caveats...
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2171:Wren Library, Lincoln Cathedral
1938:, Appleby Magna, Leicestershire
1880:Wren Library, Lincoln Cathedral
1851:The Royal Observatory Greenwich
1320:The nave of St Paul's Cathedral
1152:This article has been rated as
1047:This article has been rated as
945:This article has been rated as
834:This article has been rated as
729:This article has been rated as
510:This article has been rated as
369:This article has been rated as
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3678:B-Class level-4 vital articles
2537:unless good reasons are given.
2299:(1680–82), City of Westminster
1728:St Magnus-the-Martyr, interior
1030:Template:WikiProject Wiltshire
605:Template:WikiProject Biography
478:. You can also help with the
463:History of Science WikiProject
1:
3758:B-Class Architecture articles
3587:07:34, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
2813:undeniably low quality photos
2407:(1711), Westminster (altered)
1768:St James Piccadilly, interior
1126:and see a list of open tasks.
1021:and see a list of open tasks.
960:This article is supported by
919:and see a list of open tasks.
808:and see a list of open tasks.
703:and see a list of open tasks.
626:This article is supported by
355:University of Oxford articles
343:and see a list of open tasks.
42:Put new text under old text.
3798:Physics biographies articles
3768:B-Class mathematics articles
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1700:Christchurch, Newgate Street
928:Template:WikiProject Physics
590:contribute to the discussion
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2007:Pembroke College, Cambridge
1910:Pembroke College, Cambridge
1836:Emmanuel College, Cambridge
1135:Template:WikiProject London
496:history of science articles
324:University of Oxford portal
3834:
3803:B-Class Wiltshire articles
3733:B-Class biography articles
3628:Victorian attitude to Wren
2637:So, I'd like to suggest a
2391:Greenwich Hospital, London
2238:Trinity College, Cambridge
1794:St Clement Danes, interior
1363:Trinity College, Cambridge
1158:project's importance scale
1053:project's importance scale
951:project's importance scale
735:project's importance scale
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3104:want it to be about, but
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3138:18:11, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
3120:06:55, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
3090:06:26, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
3072:06:01, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
3058:about individual images
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1191:03:56, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
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692:WikiProject Architecture
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1673:St Stephen's, Walbrook
1659:St Peter upon Cornhill
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3566:Date of Death, AGAIN!
3098:Perhaps that is what
2756:Old one looks better.
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2111:St Vedast Foster Lane
1953:, Hampton Court Green
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1244:Christ Church, Oxford
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3357:Omnipaedistaz
3354:
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3333:
3329:
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3321:
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3294:Beyond My Ken
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3150:
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3112:Beyond My Ken
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3064:Beyond My Ken
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3034:WP:CANVASSING
3031:
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2983:
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2951:Beyond My Ken
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52:Learn to edit
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3640:82.40.43.135
3634:— Preceding
3631:
3619:p.s. here's
3595:82.40.43.135
3573:— Preceding
3569:
3532:
3421:
3374:outlined at
3233:
3144:
3130:Secretlondon
3106:
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2758:Thelostone41
2753:
2737:
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2608:
2601:
2600:Works only:
2594:
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2512:
2484:
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2433:
2413:
2234:Wren Library
1990:
1989:
1987:
1908:The Chapel,
1894:Winslow Hall
1838:, the Chapel
1359:Wren Library
1260:, west front
1197:
1196:
1194:
1180:
1177:RfC: Gallery
1173:
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1048:
1008:
961:
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906:
836:Low-priority
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761:Low‑priority
730:
706:Architecture
697:Architecture
690:
653:Architecture
627:
579:
511:
479:
472:project page
461:
370:
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267:WikiProjects
250:
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184:
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144:
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132:
122:
94:
19:This is the
3458:, but also
2314:(1681–82),
2236:(1676–95),
2173:(1674–76),
1951:Blue plaque
868:Biographies
811:Mathematics
802:mathematics
758:Mathematics
148:free images
31:not a forum
3657:Categories
3376:WP:GALLERY
3306:WP:GALLERY
3198:Xxanthippe
2922:'s choices
2872:'s choices
2798:Xxanthippe
2777:Regarding
2772:Discussion
2561:Xxanthippe
2541:Xxanthippe
2051:Temple Bar
1675:, exterior
476:discussion
403:parameter.
3418:1911-1920
3167:I'm sure
2802:Apaugasma
2492:Apaugasma
2312:Tom Tower
2191:(1675–76)
2128:(1671–77)
2113:(1670–97)
1716:, steeple
1565:, steeple
1240:Tom Tower
1024:Wiltshire
1015:Wiltshire
987:Wiltshire
599:Biography
539:Biography
255:is rated
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
3636:unsigned
3621:an image
3575:unsigned
3548:Filetime
3492:Filetime
3490:Agreed.
3464:GrindtXX
3380:Filetime
3349:GrindtXX
3332:GrindtXX
3320:Filetime
3312:article?
3237:Filetime
3171:Filetime
3149:Filetime
3082:Filetime
3038:Filetime
3008:GrindtXX
2972:Filetime
2936:Filetime
2712:Spudlace
2625:include.
2570:Filetime
2521:Filetime
1967:Bankside
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
3363:, and
3200:, and
3194:Sea Ane
3145:Comment
3022:, and
2708:Neither
2683:Sea Ane
2678:Comment
2665:Sea Ane
1550:, spire
1156:on the
1051:on the
949:on the
922:Physics
913:Physics
863:Physics
838:on the
733:on the
514:on the
373:on the
257:B-class
203:90 days
154:WP refs
142:scholar
3538:(talk)
3527:WP:NOT
3365:Ham II
3060:per se
3024:Ham II
2932:WP:NOT
2743:(talk)
2733:WP:NOT
2439:Survey
1129:London
1120:London
1076:London
401:|auto=
263:scale.
126:Google
3452:JCrue
3426:JCrue
3353:JCrue
3298:JCrue
3202:JCrue
3177:JCrue
3012:JCrue
2693:JCrue
2646:JCrue
2565:See:
395:by a
244:This
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
3644:talk
3613:talk
3599:talk
3583:talk
3552:talk
3496:talk
3468:talk
3430:talk
3412:and
3404:and
3384:talk
3336:talk
3280:talk
3241:talk
3181:talk
3151:and
3134:talk
3116:talk
3086:talk
3068:talk
3042:talk
2991:talk
2976:talk
2955:talk
2940:talk
2800:and
2787:talk
2762:talk
2735:. —
2716:talk
2697:talk
2669:talk
2650:talk
2574:talk
2545:talk
2525:talk
2498:talk
2472:talk
2453:talk
2425:talk
1820:The
1187:talk
1043:High
588:and
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
3101:you
3055:not
2616:Yes
2609:Yes
2602:Yes
2595:Yes
2513:Yes
1148:Top
941:Mid
830:Low
725:Top
506:Low
397:bot
365:Mid
176:TWL
3659::
3646:)
3615:)
3601:)
3585:)
3554:)
3498:)
3470:)
3432:)
3424:--
3416:,
3408:,
3386:)
3359:,
3355:,
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3243:)
3196:,
3183:)
3136:)
3118:)
3088:)
3070:)
3044:)
3018:,
3014:,
3010:,
2993:)
2978:)
2957:)
2942:)
2806::
2789:)
2764:)
2754:No
2725:No
2718:)
2699:)
2671:)
2661:No
2652:)
2644:--
2576:)
2547:)
2535:No
2527:)
2519:.
2489:☿
2485:No
2474:)
2455:)
2445:No
2427:)
1361:,
1242:,
1189:)
866::
542::
201::
193:,
156:)
54:;
3642:(
3611:(
3597:(
3581:(
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2502:☉
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2470:(
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1160:.
1055:.
966:.
953:.
842:.
737:.
632:.
596:.
518:.
484:.
377:.
269::
195:2
191:1
188::
172:·
166:·
158:·
151:·
145:·
139:·
133:·
128:(
58:.
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