Talk:Cigarette holder - Knowledge (XXG)

1407:. Structurally, there's some powerful similarities: "Tutankhamum's tomb possessed gold fans with ostrich feathers" our article says; "Tutankhamen's...tomb contained gold fans with ostrich feathers" the book says. From there, the book goes on to the Americas and then to Greeks, Romans and Etruscrans, just like the article. It then moves to China, just like the article, and then to Japan, talking about the invention of the folding fan and their usage by Shinto priests, just like our article. Our article says, "They are used today by Shinto priests in formal costume and in the formal costume of the Japanese court". The book says, "In the modern era, Shinto priests still use fans as part of formal costume attire, as does the royal family of Japan." Moves on to the Ming dynasty, check. "Hangzhou was a center of folding fan production" says our article; "the city of Hangzhou was the center of the folding fan industry" says the book. "The management of the fan became a highly regarded feminine art. " says our article. "The stylized usage of fans during this period was a highly regarded feminine art" says the book. Moves to Europe, check, and, like our article, talks about rigid fans. From there, it deviates, as our article goes on to mechanical fans. 1896:). I agree that the claim should not be in the article without a reliable source; it is not, however, a hoax. It's merely an unsourced claim that doesn't belong in the article. What truly scares me, however, is that the emails have been sent to me and I presume several others and the emails contain evidence of a comprehensive attempt to link a user with their real world identity, yet I'm the one who's the subject of an ANI posting (in which KC9TV asked for my immediate block) and am warned by an administrator to redact comments because I quoted a sentence from an email that I received through the media wiki interface. I'm sincerely glad that my username cannot be connected to my real-world identity; others are not so lucky. 591:, male or female; the vast majority of women smokers did not use them either. For my part, I've noticed cigarette holders in the hands of so many men in photographs and films of the era that I can place little credence in the notion that it was primarily a female phenomenon. It was a louche, leisure-class affectation for both genders. The significant gender difference was in the length of the holder: women's were longer - see the citation I added (the only citation in this article from an even half-way scholarly or non-biased source, by the way). Still - without a reference, the article shouldn't be made to represent cigarette holders 2470:

statistics support that they do, though at only half to a third the rate of men), I also disagree with Kintetsubuffalo, because I've never once seen anyone, male or female, use a cigarette holder here. Of course, my opinion and observations aren't particularly relevant, but since it's a pretty extraordinary claim, we'll need a pretty good reference to verify it. Moonriddengirl, since it seems like the only objector to removal has acquiesed until RS become available, would you be wiling to remove the info? Now that I think about it, some might argue that I'm

1953:(also for public view), I believe, might (or might not) be allowed on Knowledge (XXG), at least at the talk-page, for it is not, as far as I believe, directly associated (linked) personally with any of the editors of the article. The latter is a Blog, in the Japanese language. From my elementary and most basic knowledge of Japanese and Japan, no (obvious) real names, or names that remotely resemble (obvious) typical names in Japan, are used (unless "煙の魔女" were one, for which is doubtful, for it roughly means " 2355:(Do you seriously think that an entire state, one that is within 15% of the size of your entire country in area, is totally rural?). For the last time, I never made any claim that Japanese women use cigarette holders because they are fashionable; I came here because you repeatedly stated that Kintetsbuffalo was trying to introduce a hoax into the article and those accusations started a spiral of incivility. Your claim that no Japanese women smoke cigarettes is demonstrably false; 243: 222: 191: 253: 1999: 1991: 2195:

find evidence of a conspiracy (or to make the somewhat ridiculous claim that no woman in Japan smokes cigarettes). Your position here about the removal has been correct, it's your methods that people are finding bizarre. No reliable source=the claim stays out. There's no need for you to ask a book author to contact a Knowledge (XXG) editor.

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email also includes a summary of what KC9TV thinks is the real name and occupation of Kintetsbuffalo. He finishes with a vague accusation that Kintetsbuffalo is making the additions to the article to satisfy personal fantasies about women and smoking and calls for a full site ban. I have no idea how close this comes to

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five years now, and yet it's still largely an unsourced joke. For example, if you live in Japan, can't you provide a citation to support the claim that cigarette holders are an important part of Japanese fashion today? It appears that you are the one who is propping up dubious original research, my friend.

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I am already involved in this topic, and so can't act administratively; I'm also not currently blocking individuals per my own choice. Having said that, I will find an admin to block the next person who makes a single bloody comment about other editors. Cut it out. Now. Look, the more important point

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Ideally, the list of notable users should be expanded to include as many historical personalities and celebrities with reliable sources as possible; and after a reasonable number of such sources have been added, we could prune off all the unsourced names. It will be difficult though, as the cigarette

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Having said that, I haven't looked this whole thing over, but as I see it, we have an anon trying to include a source for a claim. Kinetsubuffalo appears to have a concern about this. As a strictly neutral observer, I am inclined to allow the referenced claim to stand, unless there is a good reason

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Oh, I of course would accept the information being in the article if it's reliably sourced (and it would have to be a current source, not one from the 1970s), though it probably doesn't belong in the lead. I also live in Japan, and while I disagree with KC9TV that women in Japan don't smoke (and the

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is it so hard for you to believe that most women in Japan do not usually smoke? Most in Japan definitely do not (dare to) smoke pot, weed, whatever, if that is what you are getting at. The women in England obviously do, though. Anyway, I do sympathise (sympathize). I too live in a boring part of the

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I think you keep misunderstanding everyone. So far, the consensus is that the claim that cigarette holders are popular among women in Japan will not be returned to the article because there is no reliable source that supports such a claim. That's all that needs to be done; there's no need to try to

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I've just received a lengthy email at the email address linked to my account from KC9TV which consists of a series of links to social networks (Twitter, Okcupid, Linkedin, and Flickr) alleging that they are all social media posts by Kintetsbuffalo on other networks about Japanese women smoking. The

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Kintetsubuffalo, I don't see any prior 'discussion' about that commercial source: I only see one user stating his assertion that he thinks it's informative and useful. No one responded to that person so it doesn't look like much of a discussion to me. However, as more than one person seems to think

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I elaborated on the practical use portion. I have been using a cigarette holder for 20+ yrs, and have lots of knowledge, but some idiot keeps trying to delete it. He wants me to cite the portion, when I am in fact an informed person on this matter--therefore no citations are needed. I have a degree

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Howdy folks ... I just happened to be waltzing by here and noticed one of them there edit wars brewing up. I would like to take a moment and remind all editors equally that it is very much in the best interests of everyone in the project to not spend time commenting about editors. If you feel an

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I provided some sourced information regarding this aspect of the history of cigarette holders. The user "Kintetsubuffalo" has removed this source three times now without giving explanation. If he regards it as a dubious source, that is ironic in view of the fact that 75 percent of this article is

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Ignoring your personal comments and the assertion that women in Japan do not smoke cigarettes, what further are you seeking here? It's unlikely that you're going to have Kintetsbuffalo blocked based on your internet investigation and what I perceive to be your goal (that the claim about cigarette

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However, with regards to the topic of this thread, "hoax" is clearly the wrong template to use here, because that word has a very specific meaning in Knowledge (XXG). That being said, the sentence from the article should be removed immediately, since it seems fairly clear that it copied Knowledge

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Whether you realize it or not (and personally I think you do and are merely trying to ruffle his feathers), you're accusing Kintetsbuffalo of bad faith. If you stop saying that Kintetsbuffalo is trying to introduce a hoax in the encyclopedia, I'm pretty sure that this can be discussed rationally.

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Also, regarding your rudeness to me on this article's history page. You wrote that my legitimately-sourced contribution was 'dubious and unnecessary' and that I should 'go do something else'. Well, glancing down the article's history page, I can see that you've been lording over this article for

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We've been over this, y'all. External links *of value* are an enrichment, not a detriment. The commercial site has some nifty information including history (if and when I can get some verification for some of it I'll add it to the article, actually) and the "fetish" site has some amazing period

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I've just added references for most of the men and women examples of Notable Users, and added a few more names. Most of the references verify the celebrities as being regular users; some of them are only photographs of the person using a cigarette holder. I think the latter are acceptable until

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KC9TV, I think a more productive suggestion to de-escalate things would be for you to refrain from using the word "hoax." You have asserted that your understanding of the word does not imply malice; realize that that is very different from other editors' understanding of the term. Read the lede

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for almost everyone on the list. So even though the Vladimir Horowitz reference I added is only a photograph in a book, it is a much better reference than nothing at all. (Please note that the Terry Thomas reference is more than just a photograph - his cigarette holder usage is also explicitly

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As for me, I'm not aware of 'pushing' anything. There was a citation to a volume on men's fashion history that I provided, which I provided in the hope of increasing the amount of reliable information in this article, yet you've removed it repeatedly without explanation. I invite you to explain

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No need for my post on the meaning of hoax. :) I'll just add to this that the word hoax means a deliberate deception - the OED Shorter would suggest this is true on both side of the pond. Deliberately deceiving is contrary to policy and an act of bad faith in the general definition: "intent to

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I've already recommend to kC9TV that conversations about WP, articles, and users, should generally remain on wiki. If he has been trying to claim that he knows who you are and is using this in a threatening manner (note, I have not seen any such emails, so I have no knowledge if that claim is

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will continue to assist, and to lift protection when she felt it was needed. There is too much drama all around ANI, RFPP and and here regarding this article. Everyone go have a cup of tea and just discuss the article and sources, and keep personal observations out of it please. But if the

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I noted at least one instance where the reference was a picture. Is this confirmation that they were regualr users, or were they using it only once. It would seem to me that in order for anyone to be on this list they would need to be referenced, and the reference needs to be a

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I was just about to notify Moonriddengirl about this on her talk page, but I noticed that she has the same notification from KC9TV that he has sent her the same email; I'm guessing that the contents of the email are also identical. This is getting weirder and weirder.

372:, and have asked him to explain on the talk page first why these are "simply unacceptable". Nothing is ever so "simple" as to warrant unexplained deletions. If, as he maintains "a free image to illustrate this article would be trivial to locate", then he should do so. 1015:

now completely unsourced and the rest of it is sourced only by commercial links. So if there is some reason why you think the article should lose of its only serious source, maybe you will explain here. I won't restore the source until you've had your say. Thanks

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to remove it (in which case, it should be removed). For the moment, if I may recommend to avoid slipping further into an edit war, I would recommend keeping things status quo, and discuss issues here. I am volunteering myself as an impartial third party.

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I'm not telling anyone what to do, but I think leaving things status quo is eventually going to lead to more problems, with the minial problem being an uninvolved editor swooping in and clearing the list, and touching off an unintentional edit war.

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There is a nowiki warning not to make the list exhaustive, but there is no imposed limit. Wat what point do editors start removing earlier edits and replacing them with their own, if other editors kick out their edits for making the list "too

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is not helpful. This comes down to one thing: we either find a reliable source to support the contention in this article, or it is removed or emended to support the sources we do find. The state of the article on Japanese fashion (actually

577:" from the text as it is becoming too male-centric. If anything, this is primarily a female phenomenon and the males are more the exception to the rule. If someone wants to compile a list of notables that smoke using holders, please do so. 1086:

editor is out of line, it is a good thing to engage in discussion. It is not a good thing to be denouncing their work without justification. It is also not a good thing to be making accusations or labeling people rude, no matter what.

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The picture of Cleo Trumbo is under copyright, and the fair use rationale for its appearance in this article rests on the bizarre claim that "cigarette holder" is a deceased person. Its use is perfectly well-justified in the

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along with an aggressive accusation that I've outed him by revealing some of the contents of the previous email. I'm on the verge of disconnecting my email address from my user account. Please, Moonriddengirl, step in here.

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I would think that it would probably be more accurate to say mid-1910's, since public cigarette-smoking amongst ladies was not popular or condoned until after the Great War began(though some Edwardian socialites had smoked

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67.166.42.66, my issue was not that you were trying to improve the article, but that you were both rude and removing important information. I can live with the wording, but I'm glad they've not made you an admin either.

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Cigarette holders, constructed of every conceivable element, but mostly usually plastic, wood, ivory, ebony, teak, gold, silver, platinum, amber, tortoiseshell, Bakelite or horn ... Cigarette holders were considered an

1849:. Specifically, it says, "You should not post the email itself on the wiki without permission (although you can describe briefly in summary what it contains or shows). " You may want to redact part of your message. 1158:

discussed in the referenced web article). If nothing more than a photographic reference can be found for many of the notable users - and this is very likely - then perhaps they could be listed in a separate section.

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policy allows for suppression of evidence (but not E-mails or other private correspondence) as such, which can only be a mis-interpretation and a misuse of the policy. This is all academic though, and anyway,

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Fair questions. To the first one: I can't say I even see the need for having a limit to the list of notable users on the list. There's no reason for the list to not be as informative and interesting as

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Short of a full retraction and a full apology, would it be acceptable if I were to contact, by telephone, by Facebook or by E-mail, (short of lobbying him directly, in person) the author of that book,

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Other than for fashion, does a cigarette holder filter or anything? Does it make it safer to smoke the cigarette? (Though inhaling any amount of smoke and such into the body isn't healthy overall.)

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We need a reliable source, obviously, or the material needs to be removed, as with all contentious content. If it is removed and you find a reliable source later, it can certainly be restored. --

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Chris, it would interesting to see some citation to support that assertion. I believe a much more accurate assertion would be that the use of cigarette holders was an exception to the norm for

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I've copied this comment here because there does seem to be something to the claim of circularity. The book was published after the article, at a time when the article said (emphasis mine):

1594:, putting his case of defence or defense and rebuttal across, upon the table (other than this miserly, feeble and admittedly-rather-pathetic two-liner)? Well, perhaps because this probably 346:

The top link doesn't come up dead for me, and the bottom link was originally spammed by someone, but it was discussed to leave it as it seems to grow into a forom for those interested.

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Certainly. Removed and protection removed as well. I have never been to Japan and have no opinion on the state of smoking or user of cigarette holders there, male or female. :) --

1965:, with an actual cigarette holder. Some sort of a fantasy role-play by some sort of a "bad girl". I wonder why? Too ashamed even to use their real names, even? Is this considered 1183:

better citations can be found. There are few names left still uncited. I would be in favour of removing them, but I'll hold off on that, in case someone wants to have their say.

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holders in Japan is removed) has been accomplished. After this kerfuffle, I strongly doubt that Kintetsbuffalo will try to reintroduce the content into the article without an

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There was a commercial website linked as a source. I have removed this content, as sources affiliated with the subject of an article are not acceptable per wikipedia rules.

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but even that had died out by the latter years of the Second World War, and has never been revived, having been finally and formally proscribed (outlawed, prohibited) since.

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I would support the replacement of the contentiously worded tag with {{cn}}, but I warn KC9TV to desist violating WP:POINT and trolling multiple users, including myself.--

424:. Please don't re-add them. If you'd like to take an image yourself, feel free to upload it to commons and display it proudly on this page, free of legal complications. -- 147: 1877:(XXG), and thus there is no real source for the claim for them being fashion accessories in Japan. The claim is too fantastic to warrant inclusion without a good source. 2729: 2725: 2711: 2619: 2615: 2601: 1322:

became a hoax, even if it originally started out as an un-intentional error. Still, I nevertheless support, and would not dispute, the renaming of this discussion. —

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Qwyrxian, I've modified my post above so as not to directly quote the email but have merely provided a summary (because I respect the copyright concern element of

1683:. You seem to want to debate semantics in the parsing of "deliberate" there; the commonly accepted understanding is a deliberate attempt to include disinformation 2347:

I'm going to ask you, respectfully, to stop making (ill-informed) assumptions about my character and behavior because I have a userbox that states I attended the

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on too many points to list. Throwing around the phrases "troll" and "vandal" for starters. I have no intention of getting involved in the discussion, and hope

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I've been looking for a source, because I'd love to settle this with one. :) Unfortunately, while I've found plenty of sources to verify that cigarette holders

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is this: is there even 1 person who thinks the sentence should remain? If I see no objections in about 48 hours, I will remove it from the article. Alright?

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While it may be the definition from where you sit, it should be pretty clear now that your definition is not universal, and it's certainly not embraced on

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In addition to the bolded sections, note the similarity of the two lists. On this basis, I move to strike the book as a reliable source for the article. -

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really lies upon and with him, and not us), if only he were not ranting by employing such reproachful, intemperate and immoderate language as the word "

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Most frequently made of silver, jade or bakelite (popular in the past but now wholly replaced by modern plastics), cigarette holders were considered an

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update: as Kintetsubuffalo has made it clear both here and on his talk page that he is not interested in discussion, I will go ahead and restore this.

708:) the actors who portrayed the apes would use long cigarette holders to smoke between takes, so as not to disturb their make-up (or set it on fire). 2796: 299: 44: 2012:(and sometimes "their" women, in whatever "capacity"), in brothels, bordellos, whore-houses or other "disorderly", "infamous" or "immoral houses", 85: 2507:

I've fully protected the article for a week, other admins are free to reverse without permission, just drop me a note afterwards. I would warn

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All rather 19th Century, I am afraid. Just because they keep on selling them, that doesn't actually make them any more "fashionable", is it? —

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book which mentions specific manufacturers in first half of the century), I haven't been able to find anything specific about the usage now. --

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Why would a chap in England ever wish to threaten a person from the Deep South? I did no such thing, and don't be so silly, my dear chap! —

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I think that you might have been misunderstanding me. I have always been arguing FOR the removal, and NOT for a new citation as such. —

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Jarry, the more I look at this book, the more I think you must be right. I'm comparing the section on fans (pp. 53-54) to our article

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

2185:, and suggest him to contact you (and how should I go about in doing this)? Or would you rather prefer to do it yourself instead? — 878:

The term "quellazaire" was referenced to Urban Dictionary; Dictionary.com doesn't know the word. (Does a better reference exist?) -

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Fixed. Not great, but honest and I think it should pass muster. I think the first go-round was just oversight on my part. Sorry. --

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Do you have any sources to support your counter-theory? Otherwise, it is of no use to us on Knowledge (XXG). We do not permit

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I have to agree and support the removal of this source. I don't believe for a minute there's any "hoax" involved here, but we

202: 1565:(who had edited this article, as evidenced with his presence upon this talk-page), wrongfully tagged with "sockpuppet" (with 1443: 693: 689: 135: 2001:(Smoking is still, and has always been, considered unwomanly, in a socially very-conservative Country, a Country where even 1225:". No citation was ever given, and if I were to engage the services of the "Google" Internet search engine, with the words " 65: 1247: 1266:. Cigarette holders range from a few inches to over a foot in length and from the simplest single material constructs to 1213: 2772: 2662: 1270:. Rarer examples of these can be found in enamel, horn, tortoise shell, or more precious materials like amber and ivory. 1719:

is definitely out-of-date in this respect. Language changes, and languages change. Now, the word, at least from where

814:, since you're so scholarly. "therefore no citations are needed" may work in the outside world, here we need cites. -- 784:

in Political Science and History, and am scholarly by nature. I wrote the section under my username: rocketpeacock.

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The counter-theory is not helpful. It has no bearing. We either find sources for the assertion here or we do not. --

445:, then it should be fair use here, as they are both using it to show the sort of people who use cigarette holders. 893:

Update: the term does seem to exist, and doesn't seem to be found in any online dictionary (with the exception of

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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I know nothing about Japanese cigarette fashion as I don't smoke and don't pay attention to it. Perhaps ask at

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tattoos, even by men, are verboten in society, except by members of the criminal fraternity and under-world.)

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allow these disputed words to be taken down, without any further ado, let, hindrance, contest or disputation

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I've been prowling around a bit, and see a potential issue with listing people as they are in this article.

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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need a source that we know wasn't drawn from our own article. Otherwise, it could simply be an error. --

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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Chillllls, you're coming very close up against our rules about revealing emails, which you can see at

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Certainly, he should stop accusing you of bad faith. There's no sign that I see at all of that. :/ --

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from the early to the mid-twentieth century and are sometimes of quite simple design; or they may be

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https://web.archive.org/web/20110927144128/http://www.moviemaidens.com/photos/full/4-1091-jayne6.jpg

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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This will be my last post on the talkpage as it seems the the original issue has been resolved.

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Country where I live. Definitely not London, and no "swinging". Not yet rural, but definitely "

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who is in fact a pastor of a church in the Episcopal Church in the United States, at Wilmot, in

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It is also a little unreasonable to expect me to be able to prove that something does not exist

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Or, you could actually read the article.... Go on, I don't want to spoil the surprise for you.

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Or, more likely, it will be removed from both, thanks to you for drawing attention to that. :(

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and nowhere else. The other: "However, it is believed that the use of this work in the article

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if there is evidence, even circumstantial ones, of bad faith, and I am no aware that that the

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who has now reverted my "dubious" tag, at the possibly-restored version back in the year 2006

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boring in Virginia/West Virginia? And how do you even know that this is ridiculous? Have you

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https://archive.is/20150118103304/http://www.lighthouseshoppe.com/LongCigaretteHolders.html

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Your anecdotal evidence from your three trips to Japan has no bearing on article content.

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The link theholderlady.com leads to a dead site. Please don't continue to reinsert it.

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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from the movie "Chinatown"? She smoked out of a cigarette holder in several scenes.

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incivility in summaries and other venues continues, sanctions are likely to follow.

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Not on talk-pages, no, I don't think that we need evidence for the counter-theories

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I have restored it per previous discussion, and am watching your own OR-pushing.--

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article, but someone needs to produce a legitimate rationale if it's to remain in

475: 1287:. Today cigarette holders are still widely popular on the Japanese fashion scene. 566: 554: 425: 2285: 2282: 657: 242: 221: 2720:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 2610:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 2386: 2325: 1728: 248: 1826:

And now I've received another email from KC9TV consisting of a copy-paste of

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and are still widely popular accessories in many aspects of Japanese fashion

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an attempt to trick an audience into believing that something false is real

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I would respectfully suggest that you might wish to have a look at what

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Commercial link affiliated with the subject used as a source - removed

917:

I agree - lacking a citation, the term should definitely be removed.

1948: 1264:

still widely popular accessories in many aspects of Japanese fashion

1961:

one would get to see a Japanese, least of all a woman, who smokes,

1268:

incredibly ornate styles with complex inlays of metal and gemstones

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a "hoax" after all. A hoax, is a hoax, is a hoax. Instead of this

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P.S.: He has even vandalised, or vandalized, the user-page of the

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During the production of the original Planet of the Apes movies (

2181: 2078:. (with or without sanctions against the re-posting of them.) — 1966: 1739:". In my defence, or defense, anyway, he, amongst other things, 1680: 1332: 1318:

But an error that was allowed to be repeated in print, surely,

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photographs. I think both are more than reasonably valuable.

401:. The Breakfast at Tiffany's one has a fair use rationale for 184: 15: 1550:

this discussion had started? Even his talk-page resembles an

1164:

holder is a fairly abstruse and little-discussed phenomenon.

489:

Information, not advertising (or yellow advertising) please.

2577:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the

1467:

Associated discussion, use of the term "hoax", &c., etc.

1229:", only some sixty-one (61) results would had been returned 2287:), back in the 19th Century, which were probably models. — 2217:

to Japan? Probably not. I? At least trice (three times). —

2209:

She is an administrator, for goodness sake! Is life really

1380:"). Putting things upon Knowledge (XXG) has to be itself a 899:

quellazaire dictionary -"Urban Dictionary" -Knowledge (XXG)

2692:

for additional information. I made the following changes:

2562:

for additional information. I made the following changes:

2123:

article. You're welcome to work on that one over there. --

2054:" as being part of Western, Trans-Atlantic fashion (as in 1534:

halted himself and stopped in his calling at me, a quote "

1285:

incredibly ornate, with gemstone or mother-of-pearl inlays

1217:

There appears to be a wilful hoax at the article for the "

2702:

http://www.lighthouseshoppe.com/LongCigaretteHolders.html

2572:

http://www.moviemaidens.com/photos/full/4-1091-jayne6.jpg

2363:, indicates that just over 10% of Japanese women smoke. 2246:. Is there anything else that you would like to address? 2028:

article, you would find that the whole article had been

1983:

actually use cigarette holders (now considered unmanly);

1911:

accurate), then the best thing you can do is to contact

1606:

part, why can he not just back down and climb down, and

1514:

talk-page, since the year 2006. For a moment, I thought

1348:

Now, with all due and the greatest possible of respect,

983:

it's worth keeping, I'm willing to let it slide through.

481:

Comes up with "forum removed...possible TOS violation".

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I'm okay with that, and thanks for being levelheaded.--

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and I have a userbox that identifies me as a member of

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have a problem with though, is the fact that there are

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has yielded only nine hits, none of them relevant. -

2024:

Furthermore, if we attempt to go onto the so-called

897:, which isn't a reliable source). Google search for 716:

The article should be editted to reflect this fact.

416:

If you haven't noticed, Cigarette holder is neither

270:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 2724:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 2614:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 512:Please feel free, that's the best cite I've heard. 174: 1262:from the mid-1910s through the mid-1960s, and are 712:http://www.theforbidden-zone.com/info/trivia.shtml 2065:Moreover, the presumption of good faith, surely, 2316:use a smoking implement, probably at home: — a " 1915:, and send them copies of the emails privately. 33:for general discussion of the article's subject. 2119:) has no bearing here. This talk page is about 1614:. I am not a Japanese, and I am most certainly 476:http://holderfetishforum.jconserv.net/index.php 2710:This message was posted before February 2018. 2600:This message was posted before February 2018. 1685:while aware that the information is falsehood. 1538:" unquote, at his edit-summary boxes, has he? 399:are not covered under fair use on this article 2048:(sous-culture). We do NOT e.g. call or term " 1010:traditional length of men's cigarette holders 595:as being predominately masculine or feminine. 8: 658:http://smokingsides.com/asfs/G/Goodyear.html 2331:" (煙管), which is yet another type of pipe. 2044:"; but rather, the article is describing a 1335:. Mistakes happen. Hoaxes are committed in 188: 2680:I have just modified one external link on 2550:I have just modified one external link on 1232:. The hoax appears to had been started by 216: 1786:but this is clearly beyond my pay grade. 1350:you might in fact be guilty of just doing 2327:(1877) They have another thing, called " 2312:(daan)), Japanese for "men") do in fact 2305:Upon further research, the men in Japan 1649:", both as a verb and as a noun. He is 1526:", with a small letter? And as of yet, 1510:might have been up to, as evidenced by 1499:), — (continues after insertion below.) 1376:") (for that would simply be called a " 987:yourself in the section below. Thanks 666:http://smokingsides.com/asfs/index.html 218: 2173:New Rochelle, in the State of New York 1990:really used cigarette holders either; 2589:to let others know (documentation at 2036:", or at least, the use of the word " 1969:, the same as pornography, in Japan? 1356:" yourself! In the English language, 7: 2178:the Reverend Rayner W. Hesse, Junior 1123:confirming they were a routine user. 264:This article is within the scope of 2095:. The presumption of good faith is 2042:la Mode (habillement) vestimentaire 1618:looking for an, or his, apology. — 1275:and the book read (emphasis mine): 553:I am temporarily removing " actors 284:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Fashion 207:It is of interest to the following 23:for discussing improvements to the 1610:? He has very little case, and he 702:Conquest of the Planet of the Apes 698:Escape from the Planet of the Apes 368:I am again reverting deletions by 14: 2684:. Please take a moment to review 2554:. Please take a moment to review 1281:essential part of women's fashion 1260:essential part of ladies' fashion 1009: 706:Battle for the Planet of the Apes 50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome! 1590:say or write anything very much 1106:People who use cigarette holders 251: 241: 220: 189: 45:Click here to start a new topic. 2797:Mid-importance fashion articles 1715:for the last 30 years, and the 304:This article has been rated as 824:11:53, 15 September 2010 (UTC) 800:18:03, 13 September 2010 (UTC) 694:Beneath the Planet of the Apes 690:Planet of the Apes (1968 film) 436:18:35, 24 September 2006 (UTC) 377:17:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC) 1: 2308:(notice the "character" "男" ( 2110:circumstantial evidence. The 1768:, where a hoax is defined as 1518:(the rest of this page) were 743:02:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC) 678:08:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC) 528:21:49, 24 December 2006 (UTC) 517:21:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC) 504:21:35, 24 December 2006 (UTC) 278:and see a list of open tasks. 42:Put new text under old text. 2792:Start-Class fashion articles 2668:17:38, 1 December 2016 (UTC) 2503:Full protection for one week 2320:" (喫煙具), which is in fact a 911:08:37, 25 October 2010 (UTC) 888:19:46, 24 October 2010 (UTC) 621:list of ladies using holders 287:Template:WikiProject Fashion 1661:for others, does he not? — 1641:He "probably" "could" (the 1405:it existed in December 2006 1364:" does not have to mean an 648:21:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC) 449:19:24, 28 April 2007 (UTC) 2813: 2778:19:51, 7 August 2017 (UTC) 2741:(last update: 5 June 2024) 2677:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 2631:(last update: 5 June 2024) 2547:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 2106:(emphasis in original) -- 2016:, used cigarette holders, 1794:) 20:15, 7 June 2012 (UTC) 1414:exist in Japan (including 1358:as it is spoken in England 1193:02:14, 6 August 2011 (UTC) 1174:18:52, 5 August 2011 (UTC) 1138:07:44, 5 August 2011 (UTC) 1100:20:26, 2 August 2011 (UTC) 1074:20:07, 2 August 2011 (UTC) 1053:07:03, 1 August 2011 (UTC) 1031:05:58, 1 August 2011 (UTC) 1003:06:06, 1 August 2011 (UTC) 933:06:15, 1 August 2011 (UTC) 464:23:48, 28 April 2007 (UTC) 454:21:47, 28 April 2007 (UTC) 397:The images you are adding 337:19:40, 24 March 2006 (UTC) 310:project's importance scale 2493:13:03, 10 June 2012 (UTC) 2484:01:20, 10 June 2012 (UTC) 1957:"). This is probably the 1955:the Devil-girl who smokes 1950:(for public view) and at 1573:"! This is unheard of! — 1540:Knowledge (XXG):BOOMERANG 1227:Japanese cigarette holder 1221:", concerning the words " 976:11:48, 31 July 2011 (UTC) 960:04:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC) 868:03:44, 25 June 2010 (UTC) 853:15:08, 24 June 2010 (UTC) 778:18:28, 14 June 2009 (UTC) 763:18:21, 13 June 2009 (UTC) 728:08:12, 24 June 2008 (UTC) 668:would be a good resource 549:equal time for the ladies 542:16:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC) 351:02:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC) 303: 236: 215: 80:Be welcoming to newcomers 2538:23:47, 7 June 2012 (UTC) 2465:18:37, 9 June 2012 (UTC) 2449:18:31, 9 June 2012 (UTC) 2440:18:27, 9 June 2012 (UTC) 2422:01:02, 9 June 2012 (UTC) 2398:19:44, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 2377:19:02, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 2339:18:11, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 2292:18:29, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 2277:18:13, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 2263:No comment. And anyway, 2256:15:17, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 2222:14:53, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 2205:13:10, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 2190:12:39, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 2163:12:04, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 2154:11:46, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 2145:11:42, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 2128:11:35, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 2083:11:13, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 1934:11:33, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 1925:10:39, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 1906:02:48, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 1887:02:26, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 1859:02:26, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 1841:20:50, 7 June 2012 (UTC) 1822:20:17, 7 June 2012 (UTC) 1806:02:48, 8 June 2012 (UTC) 1777:18:18, 7 June 2012 (UTC) 1760:17:10, 7 June 2012 (UTC) 1708:15:01, 7 June 2012 (UTC) 1698:14:43, 7 June 2012 (UTC) 1666:14:24, 7 June 2012 (UTC) 1623:13:53, 7 June 2012 (UTC) 1578:14:15, 7 June 2012 (UTC) 1546:changing the tags, even 1542:! And why does he still 1497:02:29, 7 June 2012 (UTC) 1482:02:21, 7 June 2012 (UTC) 1461:05:03, 7 June 2012 (UTC) 1423:02:29, 7 June 2012 (UTC) 1389:13:17, 7 June 2012 (UTC) 1344:01:58, 7 June 2012 (UTC) 1327:20:10, 6 June 2012 (UTC) 1314:18:10, 6 June 2012 (UTC) 1297:17:58, 6 June 2012 (UTC) 1244:16:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC) 582:00:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC) 2673:External links modified 2543:External links modified 2117:Japanese street fashion 1571:unspecified sock-puppet 1201:Japanese fashion "hoax" 2349:University of Virginia 2112:battleground mentality 2071:Knowledge (XXG):OUTING 1976:My counter-theory is, 1971:I think it probably is 1751:calling me a "troll", 1360:, at least, the word " 418:Breakfast at Tiffany's 403:Breakfast at Tiffany's 197:This article is rated 75:avoid personal attacks 2381:Calm down, dear! See 2032:, as some sort of a " 1370:malice of forethought 733:What's stopping you? 441:If it is fair use on 201:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 100:Neutral point of view 2722:regular verification 2612:regular verification 2509:User:Kintetsubuffalo 2062:probably do, though. 1986:That women in Japan 1963:in the present tense 1657:, is he not? He has 1569:parameters), as an " 1155:no references at all 523:I thank you again.-- 485:Ad paragraph removal 409:: To illustrate the 105:No original research 2712:After February 2018 2602:After February 2018 2581:parameter below to 2517:User:Moonriddengirl 2014:or such like places 1723:sit, is now also a 860:Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) 770:Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) 267:WikiProject Fashion 2766:InternetArchiveBot 2717:InternetArchiveBot 2656:InternetArchiveBot 2607:InternetArchiveBot 2513:User:99801155KC9TV 1979:That men in Japan 1563:user:76.210.67.137 1205:(copied from ANI) 816:Chris (クリス • フィッチ) 735:Chris (クリス • フィッチ) 684:Planet of the Apes 670:Chris (クリス • フィッチ) 422:Tennessee Williams 411:person in question 407:Tennessee Williams 203:content assessment 86:dispute resolution 47: 2742: 2632: 2535: 2530: 2100:"unless there is 2093:original research 2076:the words are out 2067:no longer applies 1808: 1659:a lot of contempt 1612:probably knows it 1528:that other person 1501: 1459: 1252: 1251: 1080:Trouble a brewing 1064:comment added by 1043:comment added by 1021:comment added by 993:comment added by 950:comment added by 923:comment added by 806:You need to read 790:comment added by 650: 638:comment added by 616: 602:comment added by 559:Rudolph Valentino 324: 323: 320: 319: 316: 315: 183: 182: 66:Assume good faith 43: 2804: 2776: 2767: 2740: 2739: 2718: 2682:Cigarette holder 2666: 2657: 2630: 2629: 2608: 2596: 2552:Cigarette holder 2533: 2528: 2524: 2383:Midsomer Murders 2359:article, from a 2281:We do have two ( 2104:to the contrary" 2026:Japanese fashion 1795: 1500: 1493: 1487: 1456: 1450:Talk to Nihonjoe 1446: 1442: 1439: 1331:Not at all. See 1219:Cigarette holder 1211: 1076: 1055: 1033: 1005: 962: 935: 895:Urban Dictionary 808:personal attacks 802: 633: 615: 596: 492: 434: 292: 291: 290:fashion articles 288: 285: 282: 261: 256: 255: 254: 245: 238: 237: 232: 224: 217: 200: 194: 193: 185: 179: 178: 164: 95:Article policies 25:Cigarette holder 16: 2812: 2811: 2807: 2806: 2805: 2803: 2802: 2801: 2782: 2781: 2770: 2765: 2733: 2726:have permission 2716: 2690:this simple FaQ 2675: 2660: 2655: 2623: 2616:have permission 2606: 2590: 2560:this simple FaQ 2545: 2522: 2505: 2457:Kintetsubuffalo 2432:Kintetsubuffalo 2361:reliable source 1766:Knowledge (XXG) 1653:using it, upon 1491: 1488: 1474:Kintetsubuffalo 1469: 1454: 1444: 1437: 1234:the same person 1203: 1121:reliable source 1108: 1082: 1059: 1038: 1016: 1012: 988: 968:Kintetsubuffalo 945: 942: 918: 876: 832: 785: 751: 686: 623: 597: 571:Laurence Harvey 551: 536: 495: 487: 472: 443:smoking culture 428: 366: 344: 329: 289: 286: 283: 280: 279: 257: 252: 250: 230: 198: 121: 116: 115: 114: 91: 61: 12: 11: 5: 2810: 2808: 2800: 2799: 2794: 2784: 2783: 2760: 2759: 2752: 2705: 2704: 2696:Added archive 2674: 2671: 2650: 2649: 2642: 2575: 2574: 2566:Added archive 2544: 2541: 2504: 2501: 2500: 2499: 2498: 2497: 2496: 2495: 2490:Moonriddengirl 2453: 2452: 2451: 2446:Moonriddengirl 2428:There is, I do 2409: 2408: 2407: 2406: 2405: 2404: 2403: 2402: 2401: 2400: 2391:Ballykissangel 2301: 2299: 2298: 2297: 2296: 2295: 2294: 2239: 2238: 2237: 2236: 2235: 2234: 2233: 2232: 2231: 2230: 2229: 2228: 2227: 2226: 2225: 2224: 2151:Moonriddengirl 2125:Moonriddengirl 2102:clear evidence 2086: 2085: 2063: 2022: 2021: 2020: 2006: 1984: 1974: 1943: 1941: 1940: 1939: 1938: 1937: 1936: 1874: 1873: 1872: 1871: 1870: 1869: 1868: 1867: 1866: 1865: 1864: 1863: 1862: 1861: 1809: 1774:Moonriddengirl 1705:Moonriddengirl 1675: 1674: 1673: 1672: 1671: 1670: 1669: 1668: 1632: 1631: 1630: 1629: 1628: 1627: 1626: 1625: 1583: 1582: 1581: 1580: 1556: 1555: 1508:the other chap 1492:Moonriddengirl 1468: 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