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1816:), thanks for your pointers, particularly appreciated as I am a Knowledge (XXG) newcomer. Please see my response to your post regarding the alleged conflict of interest, which I refute, on my talk page. I would like to point out that your proposed content, which states that the Africanis is a breed, is not supported by secondary sources, unless I'm mistaken. My concern here is that, based on my research, the Knowledge (XXG) page would be making an unsubstantiated claim that the Africanis is a breed. As another user pointed out previously on this talk page, any derived breeds would anyway be secondary to the landrace and require a sub-topic.
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non-existent breeds. The editors need to consider precisely what the difference is between Hound and
Sighthound. Knowledge (XXG) should reflect reality, not create its own assumed "reality". In all cases where the use and function define a type, variety or breed - and that is always the case with hunting dogs or hounds - then the original use should be clearly provided and it should be verifiable. Please address these problems, such as the incongruity of having the Rhodesian Ridgeback and Podenco/Ibizan Hound in both the Scent Hound and Sighthound categories.
1590:
whether these efforts will be successful beyond local (non-independent, primary-source) breeder claims. When something like FCI, AKC, and other major kennel clubs recognize them as an established breed, then we have sufficient sourcing to consider them a breed as well as a landrace (or rather that we have two very closely topics, historical landrace and recent breed, that are probably best covered in the same article).
2054:. I wonder where the indignation comes from. To me, whether this or that kennel club chooses to create a breed standard and to name it Africanis or AfriCanis or Aeroplane for that matter, shouldn't really be an issue from the point of view of someone studying the landrace. Perhaps Ms Gallant foresees some knock-on effect... I don't have the time budget to look into it further though.
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Kennel Club (and I believe KC's of other countries) define breeds as 'unique types developed for certain specific condtions'? If this is the case, it seems unreasonable to class all domestic
African dogs, whatever their phenotype, as 'land race' when other countries are allowed specific breeds. Just my opinion of course... -Neta
1461:, and any of a zillion dog breeds developed from local landraces such as the Samoyed). If the breed is firmly established, it is the main topic, as many people will have heard of it through breed books and such; if the breed is/are not established, then treating them as anything but provisional attempts would violate
2149:
I remain very sceptical of any attempts to introduce
Gallant as a source, the author is too connected to the ASSA and further has previously attempted to promote their works on this page. The link to the ASSA at the bottom of the article is sufficient as the existence of the organisation is confirmed
2138:
Hello
Bokaapje, I am not adverse to replacing the word “breed” throughout the article, that is still consistent with the sources cited, clearly the last two sentences of the History section used to be one and someone split them. I am unsure what the FCI link above is supposed to show, but no I do not
1616:
I have been asked by the
Chairperson of the Africanis Society of Southern Africa (ASSA) to correct the statement on this Knowledge (XXG) article, to the effect that the Africanis is either a breed or a developing breed. There is currently no breed standard or developing / emerging breed standard. The
2122:
pointed out above, several secondary sources support the fact that the name
Africanis was coined to describe a landrace of dog. However, as an experienced editor of dog breed articles, how would you recommend structuring content respectively for a variety of animal and for a breed of animal with the
1899:
claims which sources did not make, or stating dubious findings as if they were a matter of fact rather than elaborating that these were possibilities e.g. Gautier p620 "attribute canid cranial remains....with some hesitation to a dog" and dated 10,000-7,000 years old being stated that this was a dog
2021:
LW tabled a curiously indignant letter from Mrs Edith
Gallant, objecting to the AfriCanis being identified as an emerging breed on the KUSA website, rather than as a landrace. On behalf of the AfriCanis Society, Mrs Gallant expressed the wish that the reference to the AfriCanis as an emerging breed
1938:
The answer is simple. There is no "breed" or "developing breed" of
Africanis. Furthermore, breeds are inherently derivative to landraces. This isn't a matter of reasonable debate, it's scientific fact. I have spoken to KUSA who have removed their erroneous "breed standard", and you'll find that the
1857:
and you have removed two reliable secondary sources that specify this is a breed developed from the landrace of dog found throughout southern Africa. The ASSA is not a reliable source for anything but their own activities, and whilst it remains published (which it does) the KUSA standard should and
1500:
I think we should have a discussion on this issue to avoid the same debate that we had on the
Boerboel article, like the Boerboel the Africanis is a declared landrace breed under act 62 of 1998 AIA and IMO should be included in the article as such. I look forward to hearing your opinions wrt to the
1452:
Definitely a landrace (or perhaps several, depending on definition). The efforts by one, possibly two, groups to establish standardized breeds from
Africanis foundation stock doesn't change that, it simply introduces new subtopics. We cover all landrace-into-breed efforts the same way: write about
1429:
May I add a thought? 'Landrace' was a new term to me when I began researching native ponies, but it's entirely fit for purpose when describing various semi-feral equine species across the globe. However I share Chrisrus' doubt about its relevance with reguard to domesticated canines. Surely the UK
1390:
Furthermore, all hounds have a local origin, a Country Of Origin, consider the Saluki, Afghan, English Greyhound, Rampur, Borzoi, Chart Polski,etc. which makes your category of "Aboriginal dog" suspect. There is no national Kennel Club that makes that distinction, it is a non-existent and spurious
1527:
Yes 100 % agree!! hence I would like to propose we edit the opening paragraph from "The Africanis is a dog breed from a landrace of dogs that occur across southern Africa." to "The Africanis is a (declared South African)landrace dog breed that occurs across southern Africa" or something similar
1589:
Nope. The present text is fine. See thread above. The gist: This is landrace (or continuum of landraces), about which quite a bit has been written. There are some very provision efforts to attempt to establish one or more standardized breeds from them as foundation stock, but we have no idea
1363:
In wikipedia, templates have a predefined list of items that you can include. The dog breeds project has a very specific list of what it considers to be the major English-language kennel clubs, which are represented in the template. If you'd like to open this dicussion again (not sure it ever
1386:
Addressed to "Elf" and TBjornstad. These dogs, Africanis etc, please note they are not "breeds", they are not Sighthounds in any sense of the classic use of gazehound, greyhound etc. This category "Sighthound" has obviously become a List Farm. Some of the names are of historic, defunct, even
1884:
From my point of view, it was never clear if the objective of this article was attempting to address a landrace, a "developing breed", or a combination of both, so I will allow you both to continue that discussion. However, I will certainly be stressing compliance with Knowledge (XXG) Policy
2234:
There is clear evidence that William Harris and Cavalryman are the same person. This indicates a lack of faith in the person’s changes to good-faith edits on this page. This may be vandalism. I request that Knowledge (XXG) editors review all edits by William Harris and Cavalryman.
2099:, on reflection I'd like to pursue our discussion of the breed vs landrace question, and its representation in this article, on two points: First, I believe the statement "These dogs are recognised as a single diverse breed" in "History" should be removed for these reasons:
1677:
This serves to advise that the Federal Council has acceded to your request and have given the KUSA Office a directive to remove the Africanis Breed Standard from the KUSA website and from the list of Breed Standards recorded in Schedule 2 Appendix A and D , as
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The information given in the article is Public Domain, but the pictures were not, so I din't upload to Commons. We may use them freely on Knowledge (XXG) though, but not elsewhere. If English Wiki have a licence they can use, go download the pictures from
1364:
entirely closed) about how to choose what to list in the breed box, feel free to do so on the talk page for the WikiProject. And note that the breed standard is already listed in the external links. If you have any questions, you can contact me on
2001:
I shall not enter into a discussion of rhetoric point by point (we both know exactly what the score is here), but I furnish the following documentation from the KUSA Fedco Meeting in support of the breed standard being withdrawn - this is a
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I have just noticed that you have removed secondary sources from the article, I ask that you restore both the sources and what was cited to them, otherwise I will revert to the last version of the page that included that information.
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I need to confirm that, by permission, you mean that it's released either into the public domain or under the Gnu Free Documentation License, which is what all Knowledge (XXG) text is licensed under. You can read more about it at
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The article claims that "There is ample evidence that no canine domestication took place in Africa" which is in fact contradicted by other articles in this category as well as by written evidence, and archaeological evidence.
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It says "These types are not "land races" as dictated by the Africanis Society, but rather unique types developed for certain specific conditions, and that do exhibit differences in type one from the other." But the article
1414:
says that "A landrace is a local variety of a domesticated animal or plant species which has developed over time, by adaptation to the natural and cultural environment in which it lives". So the sentence makes no sense.
2076:
Another interesting question this raises is what aspect of the "documentation" mentioned caused KUSA to remove the references to the breed from the website... more generally, why did they withdraw the standard?
1766:
with this article, I have left you a message on your talk page articulating what should do from here, basically you should stop make additions to the page itself and suggest amendments here on the article talk
2214:, which has been the case on this page. As has been explained to you, your edits contradict those sources and you have not introduced any new sources to verify what you claim, without doing so your claims are
1617:
breed standard previously published by the Kennel Union of South Africa (KUSA) has been retracted at the request of ASSA. I have appended the KUSA letter below. When I try to correct the article leader,
2277:, something that is taken seriously here on Knowledge (XXG). As already said, can you provide any reliable sources that corroborate your amendments to the page and justify the removal of other content?
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This earlier comment is relevant: "I'm not going to make any more contributions because it is too frustrating to have them undone arbitrarily as you have done Cavalryman and William Harris."
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believe the FCI and KUSA combined are more reliable than a very well researched secondary source, I have seen too many errors from the former to accept anything they say beyond their own
1900:
dated 7,000 years old. (Note: The accepted fossil is 5,900 years old.) The Gallant reference has no page number, and what is claimed is to be weighed in the context that this is not an
1228:(I'm just one of thousands of volunteers on this project & I'm just trying to make sure that this isn't copyrighted material that you wouldn't want propagated or used elsewhere.)
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immediately undoes my change. Even if there were an Africanis breed under development, it should be given a sub-topic and certainly not be in the leading paragraph of this article.
1939:
links to a "breed standard" at KUSA are now broken. But I'm not going to make any more contributions because it is too frustrating to have them undone arbitrarily as you have done
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the removal of correctly cited sources; I have no issue with the contrasting of differing positions taken by authors but these must be made looking from a neutral point of view
1558:
Regardless your opinion if its South African bureaucracy speak or not, It still is a declared landrace dog breed and should be included at least somewhere in the article imo.
2218:, something that is prohibited here on Knowledge (XXG). You may find Knowledge (XXG)’s standards frustrating or arbitrary, but they are applied across the encyclopedia.
2114:(KUSA is affiliated to the FCI). I hope we can agree that KUSA and the FCI together make a more reliable source than the "Dictionary of 1,000 dog breeds" book (Morris).
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same name? Sadly there doesn't seem to be a naming convention that reflects the distinction, as there is in the plant kingdom to distinguish cultivars from varieties.
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1668:
We refer to your email of the 9 September 2019 requesting the withdrawal of the AfriCanis from the KUSA list of Breed Standards under the Emerging Breed Group.
2103:
Having reviewed the Armand article, I believe it was meant to support the previous sentence (regarding ASSA), and should be moved back to that sentence.
2025:
Fedco considered the documentation and Mrs Gallant’s plea and it was decided, unanimously, to remove all references to the breed from the KUSA website.
1963:
You seem to be favouring or indeed promoting the views and products of the dog fancy hobby community over those of respected, peer-reviewed scientists
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I am afraid the above correspondence does not count for anything here on Knowledge (XXG), everything on Knowledge (XXG) should be cited to
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is but one of its many members, on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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I do not know why you claim the KUSA standard link is broken, it works very well for me, but given the above I think it can be omitted:
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If you are making edits at the behest of the ASSA you have a conflict of interest, and you have stated above that you are doing so.
1866:(Morris and Arman) that contradict your own point of view that is only supported by original research and flimsy primary sources.
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category. Please reflect on exactly what you are doing and inform yourselves with the real facts, the real history. Thank you. --
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John: An anoymous user has added text from your book to the Knowledge (XXG) online public-domain encyclopedia with this note:
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This article should place and describe a variety of dog in the Linnean taxonomy, before promoting any status as a breed
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Cadae9265, you are refusing to respond to legitimate concerns about your edits to this page, further accusations of
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There is no breed standard in existence for the Africanis, yet you keep changing this article to state that there is
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of the subject. Whilst organisations such as the ASSA can be cited for discrete aspects of the topic, they are a
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Would a separate articles for the landrace and the breed, with a disambiguation page, perhaps be a solution?
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Removing my entire edit to reinstate the two reference citations is to throw the baby out with the bathwater
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Here's his response--not clear on the public domain or GFDL, but that info is in my query, soo-----
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I would oppose that opening sentence, it has no merit outside of South African bureaucracy speak.
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We trust that this will meet with your approval and meets the AfriCanis Society’s requirements.
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You have removed several valid secondary sources (Gallant, van Schalkwyk, Coppinger and others)
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The external link 'breed standard' does not work. It leads to a page where you have to log in.
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1203:], author of the book The Story of the African Dog - University of Kwazulu-Natal Press -
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The citation of reliable secondary sources does not constitute the promotion of products
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https://www.kusa.co.za/index.php/documents/minutes-agendas/3023-2019-12-fedco-minutes
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https://www.kusa.co.za/index.php/documents/minutes-agendas/3023-2019-12-fedco-minutes
1947:. I object in particular to your edits and justifications for the following reasons:
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KUSA is the internationally recognized registry for purebred dogs in Southern Africa.
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The accusations of conflict of interest and promotion of products are unjustified
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Tom Bjornstad requested information on the Africanis from me for Knowledge (XXG).
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Apart from bordering on the paranoid, obfuscation of the topic is not helpful.
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will remain linked in the article. I suggest you familiarise yourself with
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the use of Knowledge (XXG) to promote products (books, organisations) per
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I was trying to update the info box, but my info didn't compe up. Why?
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There is no breed, or developing breed, named Africanis, as per
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cannot be reached, I encourage you both to seek a third opinion
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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject_Dog_breeds#Infobox_Dogbreed_template
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https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/William_Harris
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and commonly referred to as "dogs" and of which the domestic
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https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Cavalryman
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for full explanation of the syntax used in this template.
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Hello Jln115, these dogs were by definition a landrace.
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the landrace, cover the breed as a subtopic (see, e.g.,
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Not "land races", but rather the very definition of "
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I sent him text + photographs which may be published
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As it says at the top of the page when you edit it,
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1039:Suggested Featured Articles due for re-assessment
1573:Perhaps, but nowhere near the opening sentence.
1195:I've just sent this email to specified address:
2016:
1639:Cc: Sheila Thornberry; Kyle Farmer; Dawn Rosier
1465:policy. Most attempts to establish new breeds
215:list to be aware of improvements or vandalism.
1051:Suggested Good Articles due for re-assessment
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1642:Subject: RE: AfriCanis as an Emerging breed
1786:for information about the topic. Regards,
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1289:http://www.sa-breeders.co.za/org/africanis
1170:Per article history, history information:
808:Stub class articles in need of development
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2050:Interesting! Thank you for finding that
1853:, what you are trying to incorporate is
1201:added by permission from Johan Gallant
1174:added by permission from Johan Gallant
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390:English Toy Terrier (Black & Tan)
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1633:Sent: Monday, 09 December 2019 08:01
1285:Africanis Society of Southern Africa
626:Pastore della Lessinia e del Lagorai
95:This article is within the scope of
38:It is of interest to the following
2112:http://www.fci.be/en/Nomenclature/
2022:be removed from the KUSA website.
1274:University of Kwazulu-Natal Press
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2273:without evidence is considered a
1864:remove reliable secondary sources
1762:), thank you for disclosing your
1214:http://en.wikipedia.org/Africanis
1862:, it is highly inappropriate to
119:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Dogs
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1212:The text currently appears at
139:This article has been rated as
2006:source that other editors can
1659:Chairperson AfriCanis Society,
1144:Villanuco de Las Encartaciones
973:Romanian Mioritic Shepherd Dog
1:
2308:06:29, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
2287:01:22, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
2018:9.7. The AfriCanis Nguni dog
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1351:2:52pm January 5, 2006 (EDT)
1225:Thanks for letting us know.
1060:Cavalier King Charles Spaniel
219:Expand and improve citations:
113:and see a list of open tasks.
2330:Mid-importance Dogs articles
2263:21:40, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
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1338:21:32, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
1271:The Story of the African Dog
1221:http://en.wikipedia.org/GFDL
646:Petit Basset Griffon Vendéen
1934:00:16, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
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514:Istrian Coarse-haired Hound
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2150:in two secondary sources.
1782:and do not trump reliable
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1323:10:58, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
965:Montenegrin Mountain Hound
813:Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog
326:Central Asian Shepherd Dog
145:project's importance scale
2335:WikiProject Dogs articles
1396:15:01, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
1253:Thankls for your message.
434:German Wirehaired Pointer
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122:Template:WikiProject Dogs
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2028:Proposed JH, seconded GM
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266:Black Norwegian Elkhound
242:Basset Fauve de Bretagne
1029:Westphalian Dachsbracke
794:Westphalian Dachsbracke
694:Saint Miguel Cattle Dog
354:Czechoslovakian Wolfdog
294:Briquet Griffon Vendéen
246:Bavarian Mountain Hound
211:members can review the
196:you can do to help with
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1628:From: Pascale Midgley
1124:Segugio dell'Appennino
993:Segugio dell'Appennino
885:East European Shepherd
738:South Russian Ovcharka
582:Miniature Bull Terrier
382:English Cocker Spaniel
209:Recent changes patrol:
28:This article is rated
2325:C-Class Dogs articles
1128:St. Hubert Jura Hound
1001:St. Hubert Jura Hound
901:Grand Griffon Vendéen
642:Peruvian Hairless Dog
586:Miniature Fox Terrier
438:Glen of Imaal Terrier
410:Flat-coated Retriever
286:Braque du Bourbonnais
262:Black and Tan Terrier
32:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
2216:WP:Original research
1774:that preferably are
1764:conflict of interest
877:Córdoba fighting dog
869:Cantabrian Water Dog
845:Bulgarian Scenthound
670:Portuguese Water Dog
618:Old English Sheepdog
402:Estrela Mountain Dog
338:Colombian Fino Hound
318:Cardigan Welsh Corgi
282:Bouvier des Flandres
278:Bouvier des Ardennes
2212:WP:Reliable sources
2052:User:William Harris
1084:Briquet de Provence
790:West Siberian Laika
726:Small Münsterländer
614:Old English Bulldog
570:Large Münsterländer
510:Irish Water Spaniel
378:East Siberian Laika
2167:Edits by Cadae9265
1463:WP:NOT#CRYSTALBALL
1120:Perdigueiro Galego
1009:Tatra Shepherd Dog
985:Schweizer Laufhund
849:Ca Rater Mallorquí
817:Argentine pila dog
754:Tatra Shepherd Dog
746:Standard Schnauzer
630:Patterdale Terrier
610:Old Danish Pointer
602:Norwegian Elkhound
598:Northern Inuit Dog
566:Labrador Retriever
494:Icelandic Sheepdog
454:Griffon Bruxellois
34:content assessment
2249:comment added by
2177:comment added by
1889:. My issues are:
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1784:secondary sources
1728:comment added by
1650:Dear Mrs Gallant,
1636:To: Edith Gallant
1612:Landrace vs Breed
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1366:my user talk page
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989:Segugio Maremmano
762:Thai Bangkaew Dog
742:Spanish Water Dog
534:Karelian Bear Dog
350:Croatian Sheepdog
290:Brazilian Terrier
156:WikiProject Dogs
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1696:Yours Sincerely,
1645:Importance: High
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1136:Tibetan Kyi Apso
1079:Requested images
969:Rampur Greyhound
917:Japanese Terrier
893:Faroese Sheepdog
889:English Shepherd
857:Campeiro Bulldog
841:Bruno Jura Hound
825:Assyrian Mastiff
758:Terceira Mastiff
750:Swedish Vallhund
730:Smithfield (dog)
686:Saarloos wolfdog
662:Polish Greyhound
622:Pastor Garafiano
406:Finnish Lapphund
386:English Foxhound
370:Dogue Brasileiro
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706:Serrano Bulldog
690:Sabueso Español
678:Rajapalayam dog
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722:Slovak Cuvac
714:Skye Terrier
674:Pudelpointer
594:Mountain Cur
502:Irish Setter
498:Indian Spitz
490:Ibizan Hound
478:Havanese dog
466:Halden Hound
426:German Hound
358:Danish Spitz
346:Cretan Hound
342:Corsican Dog
306:Bull Terrier
238:Barbet (dog)
230:Artois Hound
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2118:Second, as
1909:WP:NOTPROMO
1776:independent
1595:SMcCandlish
1474:SMcCandlish
1250:Hello Ellen
1092:Erbi Txakur
1021:Treeing Cur
1017:Toy Bulldog
933:Kunming dog
913:Hygen Hound
833:Billy (dog)
782:Welsh Hound
710:Shikoku dog
698:Šarplaninac
682:Rat Terrier
658:Plott Hound
578:Magyar Agár
518:Jagdterrier
394:Erbi Txakur
222:Akita (dog)
90:Dogs portal
2319:Categories
2279:Cavalryman
2220:Cavalryman
2152:Cavalryman
2097:Cavalryman
2004:WP:PRIMARY
1941:Cavalryman
1868:Cavalryman
1837:Cavalryman
1804:Cavalryman
1788:Cavalryman
1678:requested.
1619:Cavalryman
1575:Cavalryman
1540:Cavalryman
1514:Cavalryman
1492:Declared "
1455:Aegean cat
1320:Tbjornstad
1185:Tbjornstad
981:Sarabi dog
778:Weimaraner
702:Schipperke
666:Porcelaine
446:Great Dane
2251:Cadae9265
2198:Cadae9265
2179:Cadae9265
2008:WP:VERIFY
1335:Doc Meroe
1166:Copyright
1108:Koyun dog
1056:Swift fox
957:Markiesje
929:Koyun dog
905:Gull Dong
634:Pekingese
558:Kuchi dog
462:Gull Dong
366:Dobermann
334:Chow Chow
310:Ca de Bou
254:Beauceron
2259:contribs
2247:unsigned
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2125:Bokaapje
2083:Bokaapje
2061:Bokaapje
1988:Bokaapje
1974:Bokaapje
1851:Bokaapje
1818:Bokaapje
1814:contribs
1760:contribs
1750:Bokaapje
1738:contribs
1730:Bokaapje
1726:unsigned
1496:" Breeds
1494:landrace
1459:Manx cat
1434:unsigned
1417:Chrisrus
1412:landrace
1403:landrace
1343:Info Box
1104:Kars dog
1096:Jeju dog
1070:(2009);
1066:(2009);
1062:(2009);
1058:(2008);
925:Kars dog
542:Keeshond
522:Jämthund
486:Hovawart
1904:source.
1895:WP:NPOV
1860:WP:NPOV
1528:regards
977:Sapsali
873:Chortai
853:Calupoh
774:Tornjak
718:Sloughi
590:Mongrel
526:Kai Ken
234:Azawakh
174:history
143:on the
103:Canidae
30:C-class
2304:(talk)
2039:(talk)
1930:(talk)
1887:WP:POL
1748:Hello
1560:Jln115
1530:Jln115
1503:Jln115
1268:author
1074:(2009)
1046:(2007)
1044:Beagle
1005:Taigan
953:Maneto
562:Kuvasz
554:Koolie
546:Kokoni
374:Dunker
36:scale.
2095:Dear
1920:WP:3O
1802:Dear
1767:page.
1357:See:
1183:(per
802:Xigou
362:Dingo
194:tasks
184:purge
179:watch
158:To-do
2283:talk
2255:talk
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1534:Talk
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1467:fail
1442:talk
1421:talk
1374:Talk
1318:. -
1300:Talk
1276:ISBN
1236:Talk
1205:ISBN
1178:ISBN
1013:Tazy
169:edit
116:Dogs
59:Dogs
1914:If
1604:😼
1483:😼
1370:Elf
1296:Elf
1232:Elf
135:Mid
107:dog
2321::
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