528:"Under pressure from western organizations and due to some religious violence in Muslim dominated towns of Ethiopia, the government of Prime Minister Meles Zenawi has reportedly began a new indoctrination program to persuade some Ethiopian Muslims to accept the moderate Abhash ideology. While the intention of the Meles government is to reduce violence and regulate foreign extremist ideologies, many Muslims are blaming the government for its interference. In Jimma city and Bahir Dar, there are already rumors of government harassment of Muslims who oppose the Abhash. In a country where media is suppressed and false rumors spread like wildfire, mistrust is expected to grow further between government officials and the Muslim community."
1171:
Sunnah and Al-Ahbash. As usual, the CSM article was INSERTED by you - replacing the
Reuters' article - to highlight the "moderate" part on the forefront of this article. The same strategy which you have used over and over again in the main Al-Ahbash article. You are making the Wikipeda a battleground for Al-Ahbash vs. Wahabis. Anything which goes remotely against the Al-Ahbash must be related to Wahabis or "terrorism". And all those who don't follow the Al-Ahbash agenda must be "inciting" terrorism or "Wahabis." You keep on cherry-picking the sources. I have invited other editors to look at this article and if needed, I will take this article to NPOV noticeboard.
539:"Critics also accuse the Meles government for ignoring radical evangelism imposed on Ethiopians by western Christian groups. Political analyst Kemal Abdisa told Jimma Times that the Meles government’s favoritism and undemocratic policies contribute to the existing problem. “In a democratic society where traditional media flourishes, facts would have won over gossips and rumors. But the one-party Meles regime has de facto outlawed independent media,” according to Mr. Abdisa. He said Ethiopian Muslims are already moderate and the government should not impose another version of Islam on Sunni Muslims in Ethiopia."
1511:, please use ~~~~ (four tildas) and not ~~~ (three tildas) to sign your posts on talk pages. You lose credibility when editors cannot see when your posts were made. In the process of reviewing this dispute I found it very difficult to judge your motives without the date attached to your signature. I had to rely on the edit history of talk pages to compare your article edits to your posts to determine if your edits were motivated by edit warring or actual concern about content. This is very difficult compared to having dates in the text of talk pages.
671:"The Ministry of Federal Affairs is said to have allocated more than 11,000,000 Ethiopian Birr, or 800,000 USD, to the programme, bringing in trainers from the Al-Ahbash headquarters in Beirut. The continued public engagement of the Ministry of Federal Affairs in promoting Al-Ahbash, at the expense of the prevailing schools of jurisprudence of Sunni Islam such as Hannafi and Maliki is not only a clear contravention of the constitutional principle of secularism, but has also turned out to be unacceptable to the Muslim community."
769:*"Medias such as Al-Jazeera and ESAT have also been covering the peaceful protest of the hundreds of thousands of Ethiopian Muslims. For the last three months, they have been protesting throughout the country, demanding an end to the government’s meddling in their religious affairs. The protesters have remained peaceful although the government has completely disregarded their constitutional rights by forcefully imposing the “Ahbash” sect on the Muslim population."
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1141:"Those on trial say the state is leading a coercive campaign, pushing the nation’s 31 million Muslims towards identifying with a more moderate strain of Islam called Al Ahbash. They allege the government is fearful of a perceived new radical Islamic impulse and is attempting to strengthen its control of Ethiopia’s main Islamic national council."
1183:
arose when i was trying to site the csm article and it was displaced but the reuters quote is still in the article..& ever since i entered discussions regarding ahbash you have given me wahabi websites so thats your own doing..the people are on trial for terrorism you can take a look at the csm article yourself if you dont believe me.
462:"Since the beginning of the year, demonstrations have taken place on an almost weekly basis in mosques throughout the capital, and more are expected. The London-based Control Risks group said this week Ethiopia's security forces might come down hard on any further protests, based on the government's past responses to unrest."
1127:) have the history of pushing Ahbash POVs and promoting Ahbash in all the the Ahbash related pages. The Ahbash being "moderate" is debatable and countered by several verifiable sources. In any case, this article is about a campaign against Ahbashism, thus, the protesters part must be in the lede as well.
1155:
no the protestors part must be in the section where its headlined "Protests"..what is the point of a section named protestors if its not used?? your anti ahbash spewing is irrelevant to this article seeing we had extensive discussions all to no avail on article ahbash..it really doesnt matter if your
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I'd say that the
Reuters source is sufficiently reliable to restore the lead text to the version before Baboon43 came along. I'll wait for objections before reverting Baboon's changes, but I think that, in the end, the version I had written (after cleaning up the original, blatantly POV article) was
2568:
It is NOT only about RS but it is also about the essence of
Knowledge (XXG) which aspires to be NPOV and your edits - under the light of your own edit history - does not come across as NPOV specially when you keep on cherry-picking the sources and continue to insert favorable POVs to the subject of
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or AICP is NOT part of mainstream
Muslims' Islamic Shura Council here in the United States nor in Australia where the mainstream Australian National Imams Council accused the Muslim Community Radio Incorporated as being associated with Al-Ahbash and made public announcement for government officials
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If so what statements would each of you like to be included and what are the best sources for that statement. That way other NPOV editors can evaluate their reliability and best placement in either article. In my humble opinion, if the statements are included in the form "According to X, ..." then
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and for the onislam article i didnt say it unreliable but there is no actual proof that the government installed several ahbash leaders that onislam article is taking the word of protesters so if its included it should say protesters claim that ahbash leaders were installed or something like that.
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As usual you keep on beating around the bush. You have NOT answered any of my questions either. I have no "personal issues" with the Al-Ahbash. All I want to to make sure that the
Knowledge (XXG) readers know what Al-Ahbash is all about and what are the differences between mainstream Jamat Aha Wa
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If you are going to quote Meles Zenawi then it seems fair that you should also quote the people who claim to represent thousands of protesters who have been protesting against the
Government for the past several months. This version is still not NPOV but I think you have made a good effort. Thank
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personal attacks, accusations & going off topic is typical behaviour which you have not adjusted..so basically if i dont have your approval or blessings then i shouldn't edit? why are you dictating to me what i should have done regarding my edits to this article..it is the anniversary of our
1182:
really you have no personal issues? so now you are a neutral editor is that what your saying? admit the fact that you were not neutral before if you cant admit that then there is a serious problem..ahbash is mainstream its time you understood that..i didnt replace the reuters article some issues
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aside from the mumbo jumbo you wrote..sticking to the edits, it basically wouldn't make any difference if i added "moderate strain" rather then just moderate or if i had added coercive campaign..my input just sums up what was reported..i brought it to the top because it sums up the campaign, it
2540:) nor I support the insertion of such an unsubstantiated statement in this article. Since the subject is extremely controversial and you and I don't see eye to eye, thus, we need a Third Opinion. In the meantime, it is only fair that the article remain being tagged. Thank you.
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which is categorically against the
Knowledge (XXG) policies and that's exactly why I put those tags which you removed claiming that they are "stale." What exactly do you want? Do you want the free-hand to insert whatever and however and whenever you want to all the
746:*"The First Hijrah Ethiopian-American Muslim community in the Washington metropolitan area is gravely concerned about the Ethiopian government’s forceful imposition of a religious sect which violates the constitutional rights of its citizens freedom of worship."
451:"The protesters accuse Meles' government of interfering by seeking to impose the beliefs of a little-known sect as doctrine. They say the government is promoting the Al Ahbash, an Islamic movement that opposes ultra-conservative ideology and rejects violence."
517:"Followers of Abhash say they practice the original Islam that promotes tolerance and protects Muslim youth from harmful radical and political Islam. But critics of Abhash say it is anti-Islam, a blasphemy and it weakens the empowerment of Muslims worldwide."
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movement and sometimes a movement which was banned by the
Western governments thus a "militant" or "terrorist" in nature), had street battles with Hezbollah, has been opposed by the mainstream Sunnis in Australia (It is VERY IMPORTANT to note that the
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So, according to your perception and POV, Knowledge (XXG) readers should ignore the sentiments of the protesters and simply take Ahbash as "moderate" because you or other say so. You are simply cherry-picking the source again as per you own history.
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your paranoia of every edit possibly becoming POV of "ahbash" has made you a POV editor..how are you neutral?? when you revert edits under "discuss before making changes"..this constitutes wp:own behaviour as previously discussed by other editors.
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The quote I have added from Zenawi actually supports the protestor's claim that the government is acting against the
Muslims. I have presented information that can be cited that presents both sides of the argument, without (I believe) giving
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your the one with the history of disruption not me..so its better to take your own advice. everything that has to do with protests must belong in the protest section and the article says ahbash is moderate so its not my original research
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the two articles. This one is short already and seems related to the movement's spread. The main Ahbash article needs a lot of work as it is, and a lot of the material there could be trimmed down, making a merge even more appropriate.
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you don't need to edit an article to be considered non neutral...all you did was censor edits on all ahbash related articles for close to 9 years..your statement about me commenting on another article talk page is in itself frivolous.
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as well as its opponents (i.e. "Wahabis", "Anit-Ahbash", "Kafirs", "Infidels") objectively. I don't agree with your "rearrangement" (As I indicated above, you succeeded to highlight the "Saudi funding" and intentionally reduced
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related pages, my comments doesn't and shouldn't come across as "personal attacks" or "accusations." Having said that - as usual - you haven't answered any of my questions at all. Thus, I am still waiting for the answers.
473:"According to Abubeker Ahmed, an Ethiopian Muslim activist and head of an independent Islamic arbitration committee, the protesters are lamenting what they see as efforts to impose the sect, rather than the sect itself."
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Lead rewritten using chiefly the
Reuters source. Clarifications made to indicate that any government campaign is alleged by the protestors and denied by the government. Can we call that particular discussion closed?
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Who has replaced the Reuters' article with CSM article? It is you. Why would you do that without even discussing it? And the CSM article has not used the word "moderate" for Ahbash. Here is the complete paragraph:
440:"Also known as the Association of Islamic Charitable Projects, Al Ahbash was founded in the early 1980s by Sheikh Abdullah al Harrari, an Ethiopian cleric who was forced to leave his country for Lebanon in 1950."
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not to renew its broadcasting license.) and just recently has been protested against by the Ethiopian protesters. I regret to say - in the light of my extensive and long discussions with you - when it comes to
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Those are all speculations unless there's a reliable source that states the government admitted bringing in ahbash it should be regarded as hearsay accusation etc..the major RS reuters says government denies.
2201:, what "rationale" are you referring to? You replaced the source, inserted your favorite statement and when I opened the RfC you didn't even participate in that. Please, feel welcome to elaborate. Thank you.
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These ARE reliable and verifiable sources as per the Knowledge (XXG) guidelines and must be incorporated with-in this article in order to keep the essence of NPOV otherwise this article should be deleted.
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fairly neutral and properly sourced (given that the OnIslam article presented the facts pretty much the same as the Reuters article). However, given its better reputation, I'll uses the Reuters article.
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as well as its opponents objectively under the light of pertinent academic sources and Knowledge (XXG)'s NPOV guidelines would be really great and helpful. Please, feel welcome to read the Talk pages of
1068:) is at it again. In the name of "rearrangement", he has deliberately replaced Reuters source with another source and brought the "moderate" Ahbash on the top. Given the history, any changes done by
2326:"Currently, 29 leaders of a Muslim protest movement, and representatives of two Islamic charities are on trial in Addis Ababa, facing charges of plotting violence to create an Islamic state"
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its all RS and thats what wikipedia accepts if you want original research inserted then wikipedia is not the place to do it..if you make your own blog you can rant about anything you like.
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if you have not done so then please feel welcome to do so as it will greatly help to understand what are the main NPOV issues with these pages. Is this RFC only for "help with a version of
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is categorically frivolous. Quite the contrary, I am NOT the one who has "Al-Ahbash vs. Wahabish" mindset and yet "present" myself to others as an "expert" on Wahabism just to prop up the
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is not part of mainstream Sunnis otherwise mainstream Sunnis would not be having differences with them all the way from Australia to North America. Let the RfC decide the fate of this and
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as well as its opponents objectively under the light of pertinent academic sources and Knowledge (XXG)'s NPOV guidelines. Once again, please, feel welcome to read the Talk pages of
2355:), Why did you have to insert the CSM source in the first place? Is it because that the CSM article is using the word / term "moderate"? Why didn't you also include the terms like
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meeting on wikipedia, have some courtesy..why are you going off topic about topic merger and how i edit other articles on wikipedia??..either stick to the topic or close the rfc.
597:"Protestors accuse" must be added or it shouldnt be put in the article because the government has denied enforcing ahbashism on the population as stated in the article in reuters
341:. He does not shy at all from misrepresenting and/or even twisting the sources and a stretch of his imagination in order to propagate his agenda of sanitizing and marketing the
2322:"Those on trial say the state is leading a coercive campaign, pushing the nation’s 31 million Muslims towards identifying with a more moderate strain of Islam called Al Ahbash"
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related pages presenting the information written by the Ahbash as well as its opponents objectively under the light of pertinent sources and Knowledge (XXG)'s NPOV guidelines.
2452:), You always tend to forget that your own edits speak volume about your own editing behavior. Given I have had very long and extensive discussions with you on almost all the
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must include the information written by the Ahbash as well as its opponents objectively under the light of pertinent sources and Knowledge (XXG)'s NPOV guidelines. Thank you.
1518:. Can I get either one of you or both or three to list what is actually still in dispute. Please use a list format to detail what about these two articles you disagree with.
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at OnIslam.net) is not reliable. Would Babboon43 (or any other editor) care to comment on the reliability of this source? What exactly about this source is unreliable?
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why do you have to confuse editors by opening an rfc thats so broad..you have listed two articles al ahbash and this one..my advice is you stick to an issue at a time.
367:-related pages as he considers it necessary to bring "Wahabis vs. Al-Ahbash" fight to the Knowledge (XXG) pages and thus all that information which is critical to the
1614:, I sincerely hope that there will be no conflict of interest and you will be able to remain neutral. Having said that I hope that you have already gone through the
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Jimma Times, "an international independent news media outlet run by reporters both in Ethiopia and the Ethiopian Diaspora," reports the following it its news story,
1263:: indulged into the "war of mosques" with the Muslim Brotherhood (As per your convenience, perception and discretion, sometimes you consider Muslim Brotherhood a
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or the Wahabis. He further claims that "there is no actual proof that the government installed several ahbash" WITHOUT providing ANY source at all.
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319:) since the day he showed up on Wikipeda and have had quite lengthy and extensive discussions with him. Under the light of his own edits,
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Let me remind you that one of the purpose of this RFC and my extensive and lengthy conversations with you is to help with a version of
2614:- I'm a randomly-selected-to-comment editor, and based on a quick look the Ahbashism campaign article looks like a good candidate for
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2328:. ..last time i checked using violence in politics is considered terrorism..so my input is not NPOV thats what the article says.
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by hook or crook and I am certainly not the one who, in the name of "cooperation" with other editors, is inserting POVs like
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ex wife married an ahbash..dont bring your personal issues to wikipedia..csm has used the word moderate you even quoted it.
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It is about time that some Neutral Knowledge (XXG) editors get involved who will help with a version of this page and other
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Ahmed told Reuters. He said the government wanted to prevent a vote to elect a new council and replace the decade-old one.
2573:(and its related pages), which is extremely controversial. I am NOT interested in blogging. Thank you for the suggestion.
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Thus, I cannot stress enough that we need few Neutral Knowledge (XXG) editors who would kindly help with a version of
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But first we must determine if the sources can be relied upon to present the statements accurately without influence
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page which presents the information written by the Al-Ahbash as well as its opponents objectively"? Indeed, it is.
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the actual POV of the statements are inconsequential. The goal should be to reach a NPOV by including varies POV.
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from abroad to take positions in the Supreme Council of Islamic Affairs, the ruling body over Islam in Ethiopia."
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from abroad to take positions in the Supreme Council of Islamic Affairs, the ruling body over Islam in Ethiopia."
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related articles. Should you like then you are more than welcome to participate in the following RfC. Thank you.
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Given the votes for merger, I will be merging these two articles together along-with migrating this RfC to the
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is extremely controversial, thus, few Neutral Knowledge (XXG) editors who would kindly help with a version of
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For the record, I have NOT written the version of this page either, thus, your accusation of "paranoia" about
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2534:"Those currently on trial for inciting terrorism, accuse the state of driving muslims towards the moderate
2293:"Those currently on trial for inciting terrorism, accuse the state of driving muslims towards the moderate
2096:"Those currently on trial for inciting terrorism, accuse the state of driving muslims towards the moderate
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do you actually think ahbash can get away with stealing mosques when there is a government in the country?"
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a few technical issues did arise but reuters quote remains in the article thats all that really matters.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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page which presents the information written by the Al-Ahbash as well as its opponents objectively".
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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.
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as mentioned in the above discussion no source was removed all i did was insert a new source.
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719:"USA/Ethiopia: Ethiopian-American Muslims to protest against Zenawi government on May 31"
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You have not posted the RFC as yet, would you like me to do so if you are unsure how?
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McKhan, it's helpful if you talk about the content, rather than use the talkpage as a
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as the initial process. I admit that this is the first time I am using this process.
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reuters has nothing to do with that input..the csm article says the following
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I have always been a NEUTRAL editor as I have NOT written a single version of
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related page should be discussed on the Talk page first. Thank you.
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This RfC (along-with the above comments) has been migrated to the
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1564:), Thank you very much for kindly coming forward to help with the
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Ethiopia's Muslims in row over Ahbash ideology's link with Meles
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Why don't you support the merger of this article with the main
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I would like to thank both of you for your recent adherence to
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related pages) which presents the information written by the
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considered to be part of the Government?) in bringing in the
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and that the involvement of Ethiopian Government (Isn't the
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related page should be discussed on the Talk page first.
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is not NPOV nor it is substantiated FULLY by the the
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417:Some sources about Ahbashism campaign in Ethiopia
2472:certainly doesnt belong in the protest section.
1520:Or is this RFC only for "help with a version of
1590:but based in Canada and actively contribute to
948:"should be regarded as hearsay accusation etc."
32:does not require a rating on Knowledge (XXG)'s
2007: (sufi not sunni Undid revision 516894894 by
558:"Ethiopian Muslims and the Ahbash controversy"
1572:pages. First thing first, since you are from
333:) can be and will be found on almost all the
8:
2391:page? You know exactly that this subject is
549:"Ethiopia Muslims Reject Gov’t Interference"
1255:considered as a sect) or trying to portray
283:actually i said this source is unreliable
207:
115:
47:
928:"Ahbash doesnt take any mosques by force
724:International Islamic News Agency (IINA)
214:Text and/or other creative content from
2365:pushing the nation’s 31 million Muslims
117:
49:
1446:Actually before this RfC starts, was
1247:(the very same tactic you used on the
160:This redirect is within the scope of
76:This redirect is within the scope of
19:
7:
2637:
1685:). Please, feel welcome to compare
180:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Politics
96:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Ethiopia
1497:Sure. Please, go ahead. Thank you.
930:they are SUPPORTED by governments..
38:It is of interest to the following
2397:and yet you keep on marketing the
2385:Why would you bring it to the top?
2197:), :With reference to your recent
1598:related pages)] and the leader of
920:not in the so distant past, (See
337:related pages pushing the POVs of
14:
2636:Thank you for your kind comment.
1201:page or its pertinent pages. The
726:reports the following (Excerpts):
2777:Redirect-Class politics articles
2762:Redirect-Class Ethiopia articles
2638:
1663:Regarding this particular page,
1620:Talk pages of Ahbashism_campaign
429:highlights the following facts (
147:
137:
119:
69:
51:
20:
2782:NA-importance politics articles
2767:NA-importance Ethiopia articles
2728:as it falls under the scope of
2379:? Why would you use the term "
1:
2787:WikiProject Politics articles
2772:WikiProject Ethiopia articles
2165:01:57, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
1545:00:31, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
1493:09:42, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
1460:07:32, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
1448:Knowledge (XXG):Third opinion
1442:06:23, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
1432:Has the RfC been opened yet?
1334:02:00, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
1307:00:05, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
1231:20:04, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
1193:02:38, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
1166:01:35, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
1109:00:03, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
183:Template:WikiProject Politics
174:and see a list of open tasks.
99:Template:WikiProject Ethiopia
90:and see a list of open tasks.
1821: (re-arrange + recent news)
936:"Those are all speculations"
940:Ministry of Federal Affairs
716:According to a news story,
305:, I have been dealing with
2803:
2746:15:43, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
2709:04:11, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
1985: (no mention of tear gas)
1960:
1930:
1900:
2690:14:49, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
2672:23:10, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
2658:23:24, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
2648:as do others. Thank you.
2628:17:49, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
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2564:13:24, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
2550:13:10, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
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2273:00:22, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
2226:20:58, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
2211:20:42, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
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611:22:18, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
589:11:32, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
297:20:29, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
276:12:23, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
220:was copied or moved into
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2371:which identifies itself
1843: (this is what it says)
934:AND now you are saying,
403:08:02, 11 Jun 2012 (UTC)
2528:and cherry-picking the
2394:extremely controversial
2090:and cherry-picking the
1937:04:08, 30 November 2012
1907:05:11, 30 November 2012
1877:05:13, 30 November 2012
1825:20:20, 14 February 2013
1803:20:51, 14 February 2013
1773:00:02, 16 February 2013
1616:Talk pages of Al-Ahbash
1277:or anything related to
1259:as "moderate" when the
2373:"with a more moderate
1847:04:32, 27 January 2013
1379:With reference to the
1372:, I would like to use
243:Reliability of sources
1989:21:46, 9 October 2012
1967:21:58, 9 October 2012
1671:which was written by
946:from Beirut, Lebanon
2514:(by propping up the
2494:page (and all other
2076:(by propping up the
1735:)'s following edits:
1033:Any changes done by
228:. The former page's
163:WikiProject Politics
79:WikiProject Ethiopia
2734:Al-Ahbash talk page
2726:Al-Ahbash talk page
2302:neither by the the
1721:under the light of
1466:Knowledge (XXG):RFC
1374:Knowledge (XXG):RFC
722:, published by the
363:should be added to
234:provide attribution
2750:
2646:support the merger
2492:Ahbashism campaign
2381:moderate Al-Ahbash
2153:Ahbashism_campaign
2141:Ahbashism_campaign
2005:Ahbashism campaign
1983:Ahbashism campaign
1953:Ahbashism campaign
1923:Ahbashism campaign
1893:Ahbashism campaign
1863:Ahbashism campaign
1841:Ahbashism campaign
1819:Ahbashism campaign
1789:Ahbashism campaign
1665:Ahbashism_campaign
1628:Ahbashism campaign
1604:Abdullah_al-Harari
1570:Ahbashism_campaign
1526:Ahbashism campaign
1418:Ahbashism_campaign
1405:Ahbashism_campaign
1385:Ahbashism_campaign
217:Ahbashism_campaign
34:content assessment
2721:
2359:coercive campaign
1472:page. Thank you.
693:Another article,
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2291:This statement
2257:Reuters' source
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2664:Baboon43
2616:WP:MERGE
2556:Baboon43
2474:Baboon43
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2440:Baboon43
2427:Baboon43
2408:Wahabism
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2241:contribs
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1961:Protests
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623:ReadMe!!
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