Talk:Allentown, Pennsylvania

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the archives, be sure to see where an article about Newark, NJ was cited by as a reference for Allentown. I hardly call that an NPOV. If not for my scutiny, that would still be here. Pointing out that the data you cite is in error is not grinding an axe. Can you explain why you inflate crime statistics, cite articles about other cities, and define REGION to suit your interests? Last time I posted, it was suggested we discuss things before they are put into the article. That is what I started doing here. It has been about six months snce I have posted. I have not been hiding. I finally got the time to find the article that was used after the Newark article was removed. That was replaced with an article that is not online and only avaialbe for a fee from the Morning Call. I finally got to that article and was merely pointing out, i.e discussing, that you incorrectly cited that article. After hearing no comment, I made the appropriate change to the article to accurately reflect what was stated in the article. My posting of the FBI data was not complaining. I was giving however posted the 2003 and (wrong) 2006 data a chance to clarify. I am not looking for a fight. I am looking to present an accurate picture of crime based on facts. I phoned the FBI and talk tothe analyst for the data. They chuckled at the use of the CityRatings data. For the record, Allentown does have a crime problem and I hope to accuratly portray it based on facts..

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to me that were not made by me. Please keep in mind that there are a number of active editors on this particular article, not to mention the fact that this article existed before I even started editing Knowledge (XXG) myself. I DO NOT "OWN" THIS ARTICLE. Would I personally use CityRatings.com as a source? No, I would not. I don't know what you're referring to about a Newark reference. And my usage of an article that discusses gangs in the Lehigh Valley is valid. Allentown is in the Lehigh Valley, is it not? Do you think the writer of the article meant Lehigh Valley with the exclusion of Allentown? No. Hence my usage of the terms "Allentown" and "region." By default, when one uses the term "Lehigh Valley," it is INCLUSIVE of Allentown. Anyhow, I think any editor reviewing my work on Knowledge (XXG) would note that my usage of sources is extremely thorough and detailed. And my usage of

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dream, for sure, but neither the construction nor the concept of the mall can be blamed for the downtown's demise. For example, Hamilton Mall was a partnership between the city and the owners of the city's downtown businesses, yet this section indicates that the stores fell victim to a pie-in-the-sky idea of "city planners." The city government could not have done anything without the support of the city's power structure, namely the families that owned the downtown's major business: Hess's, Leh's, The Morning Call, Bohlen Gross & Moyer, etc. And no matter what, nobody could have done anything to thwart the impact of the LV Mall. Accordingly, I've placed a Onesource template on the section.

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Northeast Metros with 100-250K population. The 100-250K is an FBI clasification and Allentown at 107K, fits that. Allentown will still show poorly relative to that but it is more accurate that CitiRatings. I will also try to remove the editorial words like "Most noteworthy" as in refering to Arson. There were only 40 Arson last years. Arson is not a problem. Regarding my "when I get to it, I do have a job and I cannot devote the time to this that others can. So, as soon as I can get to it, I will do so. Take care and thansk for feedback.

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you can infer what a writer is "thinking" You said this "Do you think the writer of the article meant Lehigh Valley with the exclusion of Allentown? " The article did not say Lehigh Valley. It said region. That could refer to alot of things. The Northeast United States is a Region as in Eastern PA. The State Police have 6 defined regions. I don't think it is fair to guess at what the writer thought. He

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include and what not to include is not inconsistent. If a highway runs through Bethlehem, it has nothing to do with the Allentown article. If a college is located in Easton, it has nothing to do with the Allentown article. If a topic is about the "region" (specifically "Allentown and/or Lehigh Valley"), it is applicable, as Allentown is the subject of this article. Common sense, really.

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now, when I welcome you to make corrections, you engage in lengthy diatribes, attacks and criticisms, and then come back with "when I have time, I'll get to it." I think enough time has been wasted. If you want to participate and make improvements to this article, you are more than welcome to do so. That is the position that I've taken with you since day one, and I stand by that.

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specifically identifying Allentown. For one, it is possible no gangs ever set foot in Allentown. For the other, the logic is akin to "All dogs have fleas. Socrates has fleas. Therefore, Socrates is a dog." That is, "The Lehigh Valley has gangs. Allentown is in the Lehigh Valley. Therefore, Allentown has gangs." That may or may not be true, but it is not proven by this quote.

224: 613: 1326:....to conclude and publish that MS-13 and other gangs are in Allentown. The quote says REGION; not CITY of ALLENTOWN. Your use of a quote like this seems inconsistent with your other discussions wherein you only allow companies and things inside the city limits to be included in the WIKI Allentown article. Why then do you make an exception for gangs? 2163: 2131: 1531:

sections, including some in the crime section, may be a couple of years old. Since you appear to have taken such an interest in this particular section of the article only, Russojar, why don't you take a stab at updating and/or improving the quality of the citations? (note, this is the same recommendation that I made to you on November 1, 2008)

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the company is relatively sparse for the majority of the company's history - a limitation due in part to A&B having been a privately-held corporation, so most material available has to do with either the founding and early history in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, or the demise of the company in the 1980s. Anyhow, thanks in advance!

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park in the area? Maybe it could fit in the Dorney Park article itself, but not here. I think a few of these should stay - especially the Joel one (as it's the only reason many people I've met around America know of my hometown) - but could be worked in more intelligently. I propose deletion of the section; any thoughts?

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CQ Press continues to provide the rankings and that is what is cited in the Allentown article. I think it is reasonable to leave the citation there but with the removal of "dangerous city" reference. I believe the wording I used for the citation is more factual and less editorial, i.e. the rankings

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could have been referencing Reading. It is moot at the moment because I did change the Wiki page to reflect region and it has stuck so far. That is a good thing. Regarding the FBI UCR crime data, my hope is to ty to get 2005-2007 trends for Allentown, the US, US Metros with 100-250K population, and

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Geek- Please keep the personal attacks to yourself, or at least, post them to my talk page. Please do not question my NPOV. Pleaase don't tell to to watch my step. You are not my father. Your other comments were totally uncalled for. I am disapppointed at your response. For those that do go back to

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I subsequently read your discussion page (Alphageek) and saw that you have decided to interpret Region as the City of Allentown. I do not think that is reasonable. The article has a later reference specifically to the City but you have chosen to ignore that. The reference is to the Region and this

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Most cities do not have a section similar to this, and I think Allentown should follow suit. Not only does it barely add to the article, but many of the examples are of questionable importance themselves. Does it really matter that the All-American rejects filmed parts of their video in an amusement

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is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! I've listed this article for peer review because it has been significantly expanded over the past week, and feedback/comments for improvement and development would be appreciated. I realize the history of

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OK. Sounds good. Lets agree to move forward. The following statements are simply disagreemnts, not attacks. In that regard, I do not agree with your logic regarding that anything said about the Lehigh Valley Applies to Allentown. The Lehgh Valley is too broad for that. I also do not agree that

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Please get your facts straight, Russojar. Now you're making accusations unsubstantiated by the facts. The last time you came around, you made an attempt to whitewash this article. When pushed by other editors, you disclosed your motives and associations. Now you're attributing actions and edits

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Ok, I just wrote this section and posted it to the article. Needs an image (a photograph of Hess's would be PERFECT). In hindsight, I also need to (somewhere) fit in the Farmer's Market at the Allentown Fairgrounds. I think it also needs a stronger lead-in sentence to establish the importance of

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Regarding this recently added section, I am surprised that one can include it without the mention of Hess' and the downtown shopping area, and the "migration" of "downtown shopping" to the suburbs. It also should be clearly noted that largest shopping areas (Lehigh Valley Mall, Whitehall Mall) are

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articles is completely fair game. (As I mentioned before, they're accessible for FREE through the Allentown Public Library's website if you're a cardholder.) As per my previous post, I welcome you to make corrections to the article. You create an awful ruckus, and then do nothing about it. Even

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Agreed. It had, at one point, grown so lengthy and unwieldy that it was broken out onto its own standalone page, which was nominated for deletion and subsequently deleted. Most of that page's content then made its way back into the main article. In is indeed mostly trivial in nature, and in my

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This section is based entirely on one source and greater balance, other viewpoints, are called for. The basic premise expressed is that Hamilton Mall killed the center city. That's simply not true. HM was an attempt to stave off the malling of America. It was too little too late and a Don Quixote

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Without further clarification, the quote should not be used to infer the presence of any gangs in Allentown. Other sources are needed that specifically identify Allentown and the gangs. I also believe it's irresponsible to continue using 2006's crime figures when we know that more recent reports

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I don't know about all the side arguments here, nor do I care to take sides, but there is one point that clearly needs to be made. A quote that identifies gang presence in the Lehigh Valley cannot be used to imply the presence of gangs in any particular part (or every part) of the Valley without

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I wholeheartedly agree that the most recent data should be used wherever possible, and verifiable. I think I speak for all editors here when I say that I welcome you to update statistics in this article, with the appropriate citations. All sections of this article warrant regular review. Some

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Flowers said that as of 2003, the Bloods, Latin Kings, Mexican Mafia, Black Dragons, Los Solidos, 18th Street, MS-13 and others have been discovered in the region. The presence of the Crips, a west-coast based gang, is increasing. Flowers said the Allentown police are also working with the city

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as an example. I'm thinking that this might be the way to go. Otherwise, I find it odd that items on the list are not incorporated into the body of the article. For example, both Civic Little Theatre and Yocco's can move up into Culture. Hess' can move up into Shopping. Etc. Honestly, the

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I am okay with the term "region" replacing "Allentown and/or Lehigh Valley" in this context. The article in question was about gangs in "Allentown and/or Lehigh Valley" region, so it's use of "region" refers to "Allentown and/or Lehigh Valley." So it's one in the same. My logic about what to

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The links certainly should not include companies or other corporate/organizational links not directly related to the city as a whole, and it's good those were removed. I thought the USAElectionPolls site included some useful, encyclopedic information from differing sources, but I do not feel

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Here is the full article. As I read it again, the article is not about Allentown, it is about the "Region". Further in the article a few specifics about Allentown are mentioned. My interpration of Region would be Berks, Lehigh, and Northampton Counties. Allreet, I agree with your

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Flowers said a crackdown by former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani drove many gang members to the Lehigh Valley in the 1990s. He said the problem is not just isolated to center city but is prevalent throughout the region, where up to 800 gang members have been identified.

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This section is valuable content, yet is quite unwieldy tacked on at the end of the article as such. I'd like to propose one or two possible ideas for the handling of this section. First, if these items warrant addition expansion, break them out onto their own page. See

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Further, the FBI, as of 2004, no longer considers crime ranking valid. "The consensus of the FBI and its advisory groups is that the Crime Index no longer served its purpose and that a more meaningful index should be developed." Please see explanation (by CQ Press)

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Police Chief Roger MacLean, who attended the session Wednesday, said residents should report graffiti to the city's Recycling Department, which photographs all graffiti for police files and removes the paint free of charge. The "Graffiti Busters" can be reached at

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Personally I think it's a trivia section of junk and anecdotes that doesn't belong in an encyclopedic article. Billy Joel's "Allentown" should be in a section of it's own, however the rest of what is in that section needs to be deleted.

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are merely a compilation of the actual crime data as reported to the FBI in UCR and that is what we are stating. There is consensus among CQ Press and the FBI that inferring "danger" or "safety" from the rankings is editorial/opinion.

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for their supposed "negative spin" against either the city, the mayor, his administration, or all of the above. Perhaps you just hid for six months, hoping that we'd forget the last attempt you made to whitewash this article?

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The infobox image is a compilation of images already found in the article. Duplicate images are irrelevant and should be removed. Should the infobox image be replaced, or should the duplicate images be removed from the

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you may have before doing so. Other readers may wish to look in the archives for this talk page (particularly that of late 2008), where you disclosed you are "working on a volunter committee called Allentown Ahead"

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Alpha - Using your logic, then you should update all the other cities articles, Bethlehem, Easton, Whitehall, etc to include the same gang references. I will post the text of the article when I get home. Others can

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I can understand noting that Allentown can receive some NYC stations in the copy, but isn't including the whole "Television Stations in the greater New York City area" box in this article a tad bit of an

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Flowers said some gangs may control a single block or corner, and drug transactions will take place quietly until -- either because of territorial disputes or personal animosity -- violence erupts.

1507:. The article is currently saying that 2006 was more than 7,000 with no direct citation. Where did the rest of the article's crime data come from? This entire section should be looked at. 1185:

I was also on the fence about removing the 2 other links to the Morning Call: current news isn't encyclopedic, the newpaper is referenced in the media section, and there an appropriate EL at

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The citation refers to CQ Press rankings. CQ Press has stated that as of 2008 they no longer use the terms "safe' or "dangerous" with regard to their rankings. Their explanation is here:

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Current trouble spots in the city include the intersections of Seventh and Gordon streets and Ninth and Tilghman. There is some Latin Kings presence in the 1100 block of Turner, he said.

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Members of the Old Town group, which covers Eighth Street to 12th Street between Linden and Liberty streets, viewed photos offered by Flowers showing gang symbols found in area graffiti.

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More than 20 members of the Old Town Neighborhood Watch listened in St. Michael's Church on Turner Street as Lt. Ron Flowers detailed the signs that indicate a potential gang presence.

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I noticed the table of contents was located in the demographics section. In other articles, however, they are located at the top of the page. Could you fix that? Thank you.

2208: 1805:"When we started this group we said "This is our neighborhood and we're not going to be intimidated,"' member Anne Crothers said. "We've got to get involved even more." 1279:. Each of these are not substantiated by the citation I previously provided in support of the list of gangs presented in this section. A search of the archives of the 567: 435: 342: 1322:"Flowers said that as of 2003, the Bloods, Latin Kings, Mexican Mafia, Black Dragons, Los Solidos, 18th Street, MS-13 and others have been discovered in the region." 1394:

show a markedly different picture. If we're going to insist on practicing journalism, then we also have the dual obligation of being not only accurate but current.

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The region's street gang problem is worse now than it was a decade ago, a seasoned Allentown police officer told a concerned neighborhood watch group Wednesday.

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The graffiti is not stylized street art, but made up of simple words, numbers, phrases or letters used by gangs to show their presence or territory.

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Can someone in Allentown take a good photo of the Center Square Soldier's and Sailor's Monument that can be used here on Knowledge (XXG) ?

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Allreet - I agree. Actually, the citiation uses 2003 data and it is highly skewed. When I get time I will pull 2007 data of the FBI site (

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I accessed your citation, the Jan 31, 2008 article in the Morning call from my local library archives. You are using this sentence...

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.

74: 1440:) Note that the FBI issues a warning about sites like CityRating.com. Using 2003 data from CityRating.com is highly suspect. 747: 626: 590: 235: 1783:"It's not a local phenomenon; they don't have borders," Flowers said. "These knuckleheads travel anywhere they want to go." 65: 1534:

Doesn't do any good to keep complaining, if you're not going to do anything about it. Just watch your step with the whole

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usaelectionpolls.com: A 2nd hand reprint of demographic information from The US Census bureau (which is already linked to).

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Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places#List of historic places in Allentown, Pennsylvania

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Given no support or rationalization provided in the two weeks since I posted the above, I've since removed said box.

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I've removed the following gangs from the paragraph in the Crimes section related to gang presence: Cash Money Boys,

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.

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until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.

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I wholeheartedly agree with trimming down this linkfarm. Please take a look at larger cities, like

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which somehow involved PR and the mayor of Allentown, and that you had an axe to grind with the

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ustravelweather.com: current weather isn't encyclopedic, even if the link actually worked.

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linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

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when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an

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Conversations and postings dated September 2007 to November 2008 have been archived

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Knowledge (XXG):Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 September 7#Allentown, Pennsylva.

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The following is in regard to removing the reference to "86th most dangerous city"

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I will take a stab at it when I have time to do a proper analysis of the FBI data.

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Hess's. Anyhow, as always, I welcome comments and edits to improve this addition.

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Allentown is the gymnastics capital of Pennsylvania, that is where the elite gym

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Knowledge (XXG):Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 April 9#Allentown, Pennsylva.

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National Register of Historic Places listings in Lehigh County, Pennsylvania

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List of city parks and recreation facilities of Allentown, Pennsylvania

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yields not a single article mentioning Gangster Disciples, NETA, or

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The 2006 FBI UCR Data shows property crime for Allentown at 6,059

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An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect

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That this article is linked to from the image description page.

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is located. Texas is still the world's center of gymnastics.

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on the image's description page for the use in this article.

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Knowledge (XXG):Peer review/Arbogast & Bastian/archive1

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Condense "Popular culture" and "Notable Residents" sections

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Image copyright problem with File:Allentown Billy Joel.jpg

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Create and write section on City government and governance

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What hours are the Philly drivers license centers open?

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http://os.cqpress.com/citycrime/2009/Purpose_of_Book.pdf

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Most sections require additional sources and citations

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A discussion is taking place to address the redirect

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be removed? The airport is not located in Allentown.

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Never mind. I didn't mean to ask that question here.

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http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_08_pa.html

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http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_08_pa.html

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Television Stations in the greater New York City area

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http://os.cqpress.com/citycrime/2009/Methodology.pdf

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school district to detect gang activity in schools.

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lehighvalleylive.com: This is a news aggregate blog.

778:"History of Minor League Baseball" onto its own page 630:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 303:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 174: 2209:List of historic places in Allentown, Pennsylvania 1476:http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/rankingmessage.htm 1968:Knowledge (XXG):Manual of Style (trivia sections) 2278:B-Class United States articles of Low-importance 33:for general discussion of the article's subject. 2199:Please consider participating in discussion at 1295:are mentioned in regards to a 1998 incident in 881:. For assistance on the image use policy, see 1344:quote should be moved the Lehign Valley page. 1147:Parkettes National Gymnastics Training Center 8: 1237:strongly one way or the other necessarily. 2103:) does not appear significant or relevant. 1438:http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/index.html 742:Here are some tasks awaiting attention: 579: 447: 354: 249: 1063:was updated with a fact from the article 935:List of sites of interest in Philadelphia 883:Knowledge (XXG):Media copyright questions 846:is used in this article under a claim of 542:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject United States 410:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Lehigh Valley 317:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Pennsylvania 581: 449: 356: 251: 221: 2298:Knowledge (XXG) pages with to-do lists 1538:issue, and be certain to disclose any 2273:Low-importance United States articles 2258:Top-importance Lehigh Valley articles 2248:High-importance Pennsylvania articles 1255:Update to gangs list in Crime section 815:Archiving of discussion page material 7: 1754:"Copyright Morning Call Jan 31, 2008 624:This article is within the scope of 495:This article is within the scope of 386:This article is within the scope of 297:This article is within the scope of 2288:B-Class WikiProject Cities articles 2091:Lehigh Valley International Airport 938:solution might be both. Thoughts? 240:It is of interest to the following 23:for discussing improvements to the 2283:WikiProject United States articles 2263:WikiProject Lehigh Valley articles 2154:"Allentown, Pennsylva." listed at 2122:"Allentown, Pennsylva." listed at 1950:opinion, fair game for deletion. 1824:Hamilton Mall - Onesource Template 1183:blogs.mcall.com/allentown: a blog. 652:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Cities 545:Template:WikiProject United States 413:Template:WikiProject Lehigh Valley 14: 320:Template:WikiProject Pennsylvania 50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome! 2174:. This discussion will occur at 2161: 2129: 1090: 733: 683: 611: 601: 583: 482: 472: 451: 379: 358: 284: 274: 253: 222: 45:Click here to start a new topic. 2138:. 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Ref: 1960:12:10, 14 July 2010 (UTC) 1945:18:54, 13 July 2010 (UTC) 1929:17:44, 13 July 2010 (UTC) 1165:20:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC) 1044:21:55, 9 March 2009 (UTC) 1012:21:32, 8 March 2009 (UTC) 596: 561: 498:WikiProject United States 467: 429: 389:WikiProject Lehigh Valley 374: 336: 269: 248: 80:Be welcoming to newcomers 2156:Redirects for discussion 2124:Redirects for discussion 2089:Should the image of the 1819:21:59, 14 May 2009 (UTC) 1718:17:17, 13 May 2009 (UTC) 1690:21:37, 14 May 2009 (UTC) 1660:09:51, 13 May 2009 (UTC) 1622:01:57, 13 May 2009 (UTC) 1594:01:57, 13 May 2009 (UTC) 1563:01:09, 13 May 2009 (UTC) 1517:18:23, 12 May 2009 (UTC) 1487:13:28, 12 May 2009 (UTC) 1457:Here is the FBI Warning: 503:United States of America 300:WikiProject Pennsylvania 2205:Allentown, Pennsylvania 2170:and has thus listed it 1404:12:26, 8 May 2009 (UTC) 1377:09:35, 8 May 2009 (UTC) 1354:10:40, 7 May 2009 (UTC) 1336:15:37, 5 May 2009 (UTC) 766:Needs better photograph 694:Allentown, Pennsylvania 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