Knowledge

Talk:Balloon boy hoax

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2222:(Changing "Hoax" to "Incident") and to abide by Knowledge's neutrality rules as an attack on their accuracy, when it simply isn't. Just as we shouldn't be siting Internet Historian as a valid source, neither should the arguements of the news outlets that jumped on the story to take a single statement and stretched it into a story as gospel truth, nor the rulings of the US Legal System, which has been shown to be just as fallible. Analysing the evidence from an outside perspective, without either the bias of IH or the general news, it has to be admitted that there is ambiguity on whether this was a malicious hoax, or a genuine accident. 2150: 2049: 2032: 1428:, which may include reliable news sources. Unfortunately in this case the balloon boy incident is pretty low stakes, so I doubt any reliable news source is interested in revisiting it. I do agree that a lot of news sources are not very thorough about what & how they report, but to be honest Internet Historian is a far worse source than what's used now, even if the video is entertaining and/or informative. And what would you have, Knowledge make up its own stories? It's really just not Knowledge's job (the editors' jobs) to determine "truth". 2218:
calling him the "source" here is a mistake. Internet Historian is not the source of any of the evidence he cites to make his arguement. That would likely be fabricating evidence, or show bias by direct collaboration with the Heenes in obtaining otherwise unavailable evidence, that may have in and of itself been fabricated, however, all the evidence he shows is available from other avenues. The only new content he provides is his particular arguement towards the Heenes innocence. This point is not my main point here however.
267: 1061: 1034: 933: 736: 631: 1071: 350: 377: 1247: 954: 815: 1164: 621: 600: 1176: 2106: 1989: 232: 1294: 569: 1951:. When reporters Google the Balloon Boy incident, the first result that comes up is the Knowledge article "Balloon Boy Hoax." This is as close to an official name for the incident as they can find, so they repeat the Knowledge title in their article (or headline). These articles, subsequently, are used within Knowledge as justification for not changing the title. 288: 726: 705: 1508:, so I guess you can make the argument that the word "Hoax" is essential. I won't go into that argument as that is hard to argue, but I will say search up "Balloon Boy" and most media would refer it to 'Balloon Boy' in quotations and the word Hoax off to the side; I doubt anyone will not recognize "Balloon Boy" without the word "Hoax" 1733:“If a name is widely used in reliable source…and is therefore likely to be well recognized by readers it may be used” -- the wording clearly supposes recognition on wide usage. Therefore proof of widespread (or overwhelmingly widespread as a quick Google search can show) use is all that is needed, not a discussion of whether it will 2282:
In truth, I do not necessarily believe the Heenes ARE innocent in all of this. I certainly used to, but recent developments regarding IH have caused me to rethink siding with his position uncritically, and the unfortunate fact is that the media did very much take a side here and that makes attempting
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My main point is that I believe that the editors of this page have made a decision about the guilt of the Heenes, and, although they have been presented with evidence (admittedly compiled by a notably fallible secondary source), are falsely taking a request to represent the ambiguity of the situation
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Sorry, not exactly sure what you are saying here. We of course must include the media's point of view, but as you said, that does not mean we can edit the title to include their point of view. I'm only arguing about the title, the unofficial essay you linked seems to be more about the actual content.
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Anyway, there's not really anything unusual or surprising happening here. Consider that it's not actually unusual for a convicted criminal to tell a good story that conflicts with all other sources. That's pretty standard and mundane. Readers can almost take it as given that if a person is convicted
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And Knowledge shouldn't find the truth, but Knowledge has held that they hold a Neutral Point of View. Calling the title "Balloon Boy Incident" or just "Balloon Boy" does not detract from the truth, does not suggest anything, in fact it is the literal definition of neutrality. From there on, the user
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This will probably be ignored/deleted or something, but I just want to get my opinion out. I've never seen Knowledge as just a regurgitation of what the news says, especially with how news is now trending towards a path of less reliability for more views. With that, I'm scared some event will happen,
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Knowledge does not shy away from euphemisms, and on whatever side you are on, I think you can agree that "incident" is a neutral word that still means the same thing. Knowledge can present the sources inside the article, show the media's explanation, and the user can make their own opinion on whether
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Nobody is saying that the Heenes are definitely innocent here. People are not arguing that "Hoax" be flipped entirely to "Accident". We (people arguing for the change of wording) are only frustrated that the editors of this page seem to not be listening to reasoned arguements to alter the wording to
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The original did argue for just “Balloon Boy”, but the main point is that “hoax” breaks the neutrality, and it should only be broken if it is well recognizable. It should be replaced with a neutral “incident,” dropped completely, or any form of neutral title. In fact, I actually prefer just “Balloon
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If you truly think that “Balloon Boy” and “Balloon Boy Hoax” are not interchangeable and removing the word Hoax does harm the recognizability of the article, I can’t really argue that. All I can say is that compared to the examples given like Jack the Ripper and Boston Massacre, adding Hoax does not
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As you pointed out, you're not here to pass judgement on the Heenes, which is why I (and most of the people throughout this talk page's history, hence my hyperbolic final comment in the prior post) am asking you to change the wording here. Because "Hoax" does pass judgement, and "Incident" doesn't.
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My main point is that, just as there is ambiguity to their innocence, there is also notable ambiguity towards their guilt, and given this, I believe that using the wording "Hoax" is innapropriate, but "Accident" would not be the right term either. The only correct term, and the one I am arguing for
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Also the reason for pardon, according to the governors’ own words, was that they were pardoned because she thought that they had they had suffered enough with no mention of any issue with the prosecution. In other words, the pardon that doesn’t even mention the prosecution can’t be used as evidence
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Using the word Hoax forces Knowledge to take a side when in reality it should be neutral and say the truth: The police claims it is a hoax, Richard Heene claims it is not, and here are the first hand sources. Knowledge does not need to make up a story or use an unreliable Youtube video, but it also
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Knowledge is in no formal obligation to include the word "hoax", it is already commonly referred to as "Balloon Boy". In fact, look at the sources listed in references and few say the entire name of "Balloon Boy Hoax". There is no formal statement that the name of this incident is the full "Balloon
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I did not ask you to analyse the evidence from an outside perspective in my arguement. I stated my opinion that, doing so makes it clear that the actions of the prosecution and police during this case have permanently made the waters around this case muddy, and ignoring that would be foolish; but
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The rule is not "well recognized", it's "widely used", as I've explained before. Furthermore, your argument was to change the title to "Balloon boy incident", not "Balloon boy", so I fail to see the utility in comparing the two. CNN source was clear in calling it a 'hoax' and as I already linked
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I'm not arguing we should use Knowledge as the start of some movement, absolutely not. I am not arguing that the title should be "Misunderstanding" - I'm saying that it should be a neutral word between both sides. "Incident". Or a common suggestion - drop it and have "Balloon Boy." It is already
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Yes, people should bother news instead, but search for balloon boy on any search engine. The first link that shows up is Knowledge, it will display Knowledge on the side, and most search engines trust Knowledge as a neutral source to display to the user. Knowledge is important, the start of any
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Firstly: I will admit that Internet Historian, were he the source of the information provided, would be incredibly flawed. His past content doesn't indicate a non-biased perspective, and recent revelations regarding his plagirism have caused me to lose faith in him for providing the truth, but
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I read through the many arguments, debates, and requests on this topic and acknowledge both sides. I understand that Knowledge should follow verified sources, and news is one. However, at the same time, many people see Knowledge as a neutral and objective website and a foundation for their own
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According to Knowledge's guidelines, 'neutrality' is reporting on things the same way sources do. Without changing the message or tone. We don't always achieve it, but that is the type of neutrality Knowledge strives for. 'Neutrality' does not necessarily mean presenting both sides equally or
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well recognized" - i.e. if it is widely used, it is well recognized. I did miss the argument for just "Balloon Boy", but 1. they did argue for the "incident" wording as well, and 2. it's not about the boy, but the event. I would much prefer "incident" over just "Balloon Boy" for that reason.
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Again, most articles including the ones you mentioned put “Balloon Boy” in quotations, inferring that the incident name is called “Balloon Boy” and their opinion of it is a hoax (Though admittedly 2/14 of your examples do put the whole “Balloon Boy
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reflect the actual ambiguity of the situation. I'd argue no further information even needs to be provided, as analysing evidence from the investigation to determine guilt could in and of itself be seen as bias in the other direction.
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If you say those 2 articles are enough to show it is widely used enough to justify a biased name, then I can't really argue. But with no official, media, nor population consensus, I would argue that "well recognized" rule is not met.
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In this case I think media is using "hoax", and in cases they aren't they are carefully avoiding taking a "side". It seems fair for Knowledge to continue using the current title and to mention any controversies in the text itself.
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Backread some of the previous topics. That really does seem like bias, especially after the Heenes were officially pardoned, and there’s clear evidence of police lying on transcripts, illegally questioning children, etc.
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I agree. You're not here to pass judgement on the Heenes, which makes your continued refusal to change a single part of the wording in the article to make the aforementioned ambiguity all the more frustrating.
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There is no official, news, or population agreed upon the name - searching only “Balloon Boy” in search engines returns many examples of news using only Balloon Boy with no concern of their incorrect naming.
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states, " If a name is widely used in reliable sources (particularly those written in English) and is therefore likely to be well recognized by readers, it may be used even though some may regard it as
1657:"Vital" is a loaded word here. It's about choosing the best name. It's not about changing to your preferred name unless the current one is absolutely "vital". That's the wrong standard to apply here. 2255:
As for your final thought about making one change and then everyone would be happy with the article forever.... I'm sorry, but I'm afraid there is a zero percent chance that you're right about that.
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before plenty others just call it "... hoax". And to top that all off, replacing your flawed query reveals that the "hoax" wording is more common than "incident" in all states with data (
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Even if you don't believe there is any ambiguity here, you have to admit that the ammount of people in this talk page alone who've bought up the topic should warrant you to consider it.
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Regardless, it seems to me that the "Hoax" wording is indeed common and therefore likely to be recognized, but if you want more eyes on this, I would recommend starting a discussion at
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What you're really arguing is that it is not a hoax. Or that there is some serious doubt. That discussion has happened many times, and you're not bringing anything new to the table.
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News is a valid secondary source here, and my intention was not to fully discredit it, but to point out that using news semi-exclusively here reflects its bias onto the article.
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it may be used” I doubt that adding “Hoax” makes it more recognizable - both the news emphasizing “Balloon Boy” and the general populace see that Balloon Boy is distinct enough.
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A lot of people already pointed this out, and I doubt this will convince anyone, but Knowledge adding the word Hoax in the title is pretty unique for this article. Going to the
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opinions. News sources are verified, but that does not mean they are objective. They will use more powerful imagery for views at the time, and the strong word "hoax" is one.
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that support the change you want to be made. Polis did not say they were innocent when he issued the pardon. It looks like the only source for this is their own statements.
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Boy Hoax", a lot simply call the incident itself "Balloon Boy" and say it is a "Hoax". Therefore, it's their claim and not an official name for the incident.
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We don't need to debate whether we personally think it was really a hoax or what our opinion of the Internet Historian is. We're certainly not supposed to
1350:"Pardoned" means the crime still happened according to official record but they waived the consequence. It doesn't mean innocence. Nothing was overturned. 1108: 1016: 1006: 687: 677: 536:) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or 1671:
Not quite sure what you mean. Are you saying that we should generally just leave inaccuracies in any article because they're not absolutely vital to fix?
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It isn't widely used, even the names in their example mostly (12/14) use "Balloon Boy" as the name of the incident and calling it a hoax, formatted as
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The official guidelines on Naming says that, for Article Titles, opinion-based words like "Hoax" should only be used when it is more recognizable with
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Presenting it as though the name should obviously be changed unless the current one is "absolutely vital" is a biased framing of the question at hand.
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Nobody here is asking you to debate what you personally believe here, nor was I, and I apologise that my wording could be misinterpreted in that way.
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We should change this to the Balloon Boy incident, not hoax. They were innocent and victims of malicious persecution. The guy was even pardoned.
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We're not here to pass judgement on the Heenes, we're here to summarize notable sources. Which news reports are, and a youtube videos is not.
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here, is "Incident". I garauntee that doing so would likely silence this talkpage long into the future, and finally end this back-and-forth.
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be recognized. The use is the deciding factor. The policy is clear that even seemingly biased titles may be used under these circumstances.
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In Popular Culture: the Balloon boy hoax is mentioned in the Fallout Boy rendition of Billy Joel's Hit Single We didn't start the fire
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The rules clearly state that biased Article Titles have only be used when "widely used...and therefore likely to be well recognized"
1424:- Unfortunately this is almost by definition what Knowledge is and aims to be. Of course it's not just "news", it's supposed to be 1567: 1562: 961: 938: 758: 644: 605: 397:
at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be
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of a crime, the convicted person claims they shouldn't have been. That's not nearly enough to rename all crimes as "incidents".
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Re-Opening the topic of changing the wording ("Hoax" to "Incident"), discussing potential editor biases and source validity.
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understanding of this subject, not the news. And the first step to anyone's research would be a giant title saying "Hoax."
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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As evidence of this, the exact words "Balloon Boy Hoax," in that order, seem to mostly appear in more recent articles.
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Even during current times, in the past year it outnumbered 31 to 1 despite the Article name being "Balloon Boy hoax"
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The most recognizable name is "Balloon Boy", outnumbering "Balloon Boy Hoax" 100 to 7 during the peak according to
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related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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WaPo: "Parents of ‘Balloon Boy,’ the hoax that captivated and confused the nation, pardoned by Colorado governor"
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Denver 7: "Ten years later: The truth comes out behind family's viral 'Balloon Boy' stunt in Fort Collins"
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to look back at this incident from an unbiased perspective nigh impossible. But that doesn't matter here.
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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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again, the point of this article should not be about whether or not the Heene's are innocent
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the news writes a wrong story on it, and Knowledge is forced to forever stick to its story.
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it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a
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Furthermore, with the addition of the alternative name you suggested in the lead (as per
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Deadline: "‘Wife Swap’ Couple Pardoned By Colorado Governor For 2009 “Balloon Boy” Hoax"
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Vulture: "Wife Swap Couple Pardoned by Colorado Governor for 2009’s ‘Balloon Boy’ Hoax"
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USA Today: "‘Balunacy’: Colorado’s ‘balloon boy’ hoax is still a talker 10 years later"
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No. I'm saying that we should use the best, most recognizable name for the article.
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To view an explanation to the answer, click the link to the right of the question.
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CPR News: "Colorado ‘Balloon Boy’ Parents Pardoned, But They Don’t Admit To Hoax"
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NBC News: "Parents convicted in 'balloon boy' hoax pardoned by Colorado governor"
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The content should absolutely include the full story the same way the media says.
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As you say and in the guidelines, “If a name is widely used in reliable source…
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It's an attempt to bait people into arguing against an impossible standard.
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The Guardian: "Couple behind 2009 'balloon boy' hoax in US granted pardons"
1271:) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other 1088:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the 2296: 2264: 2239: 2202: 2187: 2169: 2142: 2089: 2068: 2025: 1963: 1932: 1913: 1886: 1862: 1837: 1809: 1789: 1757: 1722: 1702: 1682: 1666: 1652: 1623: 1517: 1496: 1471: 1441: 1415: 1376: 1359: 1344: 1588:
FOX31: "What did dad of ‘Balloon Boy’ tell 911 dispatchers 13 years ago?"
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NY Times: "Parents of ‘Balloon Boy’ Are Pardoned by Colorado’s Governor"
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I've never seen Knowledge as just a regurgitation of what the news says
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After November 2014, searches for "Balloon Boy" will be dominated by
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unique enough, and from there, the user can make their own decision.
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Per Knowledge's guidelines, self-published YouTube videos are not a
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about the video, this has been established on here several times.
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The rule specifically states “widely used” by reliable sources
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can read the sources and determine whether it is a hoax or not.
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Q1: Why can't the Internet Historian video be used as a source?
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from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
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I want to note that this is, very likely, a minor example of
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Talk:Balloon boy hoax/Archive 4#Requested move 4 March 2021
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BBC News: "'Balloon boy hoax' parents pardoned in Colorado"
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that the prosecution was malicious for obvious reasons.--
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Reuters: "Mom admits to "Balloon Boy" hoax: court record"
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and is therefore likely to be well recognized by readers
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It does not "break neutrality" to call a hoax a hoax.
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CNN: "Authorities: 'Balloon boy' incident was a hoax"
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of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
1462:should not use a influenceable word in it's title. 1193:, our collaboration to improve, create, and update 2250:"analyze the evidence from an outside perspective" 2379:B-Class United States articles of Low-importance 1214:For questions about, or to make suggestions for 46:for general discussion of the article's subject. 2059:that support the change you want to be made. 362:. Please read recent comments and review the 187: 8: 2404:Knowledge articles that use American English 1818:related content. It's better to limit it to 2097:Semi-protected edit request on 23 June 2024 1980:Semi-protected edit request on 12 July 2023 2075: 1367:"pardon" wipes the actual crime as well. 1292: 1259:, which has its own spelling conventions ( 1208:To comment about this article, select the 1028: 927: 822:Here are some tasks awaiting attention: 800: 699: 594: 412: 371: 389:Social sciences and society good articles 1364:that is not true; that is "commutation". 1299:Text and/or other creative content from 1956:2600:8806:6101:1700:DCA7:F9B7:8AA6:1C23 1337:2600:6C5E:447F:AEC2:50B9:3795:D697:FE2E 1030: 929: 701: 596: 566: 1421: 1369:2601:19C:527F:A660:1C7B:D57F:1D8B:C1CD 2374:Low-importance United States articles 2135:2001:569:BD51:1600:BC27:73BB:C19A:447 2082:2001:FB1:15D:9BBB:7DE5:28F7:659E:A953 1279:, this should not be changed without 7: 1538:5280: "The Balloon Boy Hoax—Solved!" 1082:This article is within the scope of 959:This article is within the scope of 747:This article is within the scope of 642:This article is within the scope of 2319:Biography articles of living people 1129:Knowledge:WikiProject United States 36:for discussing improvements to the 2399:WikiProject United States articles 2359:Low-importance Skepticism articles 2329:Low-importance Journalism articles 1385:The use of neutrality in Knowledge 1132:Template:WikiProject United States 14: 1769:. 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Since the 309:right a great wrong 1824:cut it off at 2014 1797:Google Trends Data 1794:Further evidence: 1767:"Balloon Boy" hoax 1710:Google Trends Data 1195:Knowledge articles 1168: 851:Video game culture 581:content assessment 416:Article milestones 366:before commenting. 361: 319:material which is 99:dispute resolution 60: 2131: 2130: 2092: 2080:comment added by 2014: 2013: 1529:"Hoax" mentions: 1325: 1324: 1287: 1286: 1240: 1239: 1236: 1235: 1232: 1231: 1216:Colorado articles 1203:State of Colorado 1027: 1026: 1023: 1022: 926: 925: 922: 921: 918: 917: 914: 913: 885:Alternative media 750:WikiProject Media 742:Journalism portal 698: 697: 694: 693: 637:Journalism portal 561: 560: 519: 518: 515: 514: 370: 369: 356: 343: 342: 280: 255: 254: 79:Assume good faith 56: 27: 26: 2411: 2158:reliable sources 2152: 2151: 2122: 2118: 2108: 2107: 2101: 2057:reliable sources 2051: 2050: 2046:if appropriate. 2034: 2033: 2005: 2001: 1991: 1990: 1984: 1912: 1907: 1861: 1856: 1836: 1756: 1751: 1681: 1622: 1617: 1440: 1435: 1426:reliable sources 1304: 1296: 1295: 1289: 1256:American English 1252:This article is 1249: 1242: 1228: 1211: 1206: 1184: 1179: 1178: 1177: 1137: 1136: 1133: 1130: 1127: 1079: 1074: 1073: 1072: 1063: 1056: 1055: 1050: 1047: 1036: 1029: 999: 998: 995: 992: 989: 956: 949: 948: 943: 935: 928: 828:Article requests 817: 810: 809: 801: 775: 774: 771: 768: 765: 744: 739: 738: 737: 728: 721: 720: 715: 707: 700: 670: 669: 666: 663: 660: 639: 634: 633: 632: 623: 616: 615: 610: 602: 595: 578: 572: 571: 563: 549:this noticeboard 521: 508:Current status: 493: 474: 472:October 23, 2009 455: 453:October 18, 2009 436: 434:October 18, 2009 413: 383:Balloon boy hoax 379: 372: 352: 351: 345: 333:first discussion 290: 270: 269: 257: 249: 235: 234: 225: 192: 191: 177: 108:Article policies 38:Balloon boy hoax 29: 16: 2419: 2418: 2414: 2413: 2412: 2410: 2409: 2408: 2304: 2303: 2215: 2156:please provide 2149: 2120: 2116: 2105: 2099: 2055:please provide 2048: 2044:reliable source 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