1006:
this clarification, relying on context often, but when capitalization is used like this, it is almost always referring to a government entity). The three terms "Nation" (the people), "State" (the government), and "Country" (the territorially bounded land associated with a Nation and/or State) often get sloppily confused. France is a State governing a Nation living in its
Country. The US is a State composed of a federal union of individual member States who have joined that union over a couple centuries. The EU, too, is a State composed of a confederate union of individual member States (the EU is a confederation bordering on federation, while the US is a federation bordering on being a confederationâthe difference between these is the level of sovereignty the member states can exercise inside and outside of the union).
1555:
personally could not be completely certain that a "wool sweater" necessarily has more wool content than a "nylon jacket" of the same size, since I was considering the (epistemic) possibility that e.g. regardless of how much wool a jacket contains, as long as it contains of nylon, it'd be called a "nylon jacket", in which case it is logically possible for it to contain a greater mass of wool than a "wool sweater" of the same size. In fact, note the ambiguity as to what is meant by "wool content" â does it refer to the percentage or the mass? If it refers to the mass, then it seems quite plausible that some really thick nylon jacket does contain more wool than a really thin wool sweater of the same size.
1707:
just as much in need of justification as the conclusion. The fallacy is informal because a circular argument is formally valid. The most extreme case of a circular argument is "P; therefore P". There is nothing wrong with the logic; P does indeed have P as its logical consequence. But the argument has no epistemic value since we would not accept the premise if we did not already accept the conclusion. Question-begging is concerned with a failure to supply reasons or grounds for the conclusion, not a fault in the logic. Your examples seem to be cases of unstated or hidden premises.
616:
question', and if you can substitute this phrase, it has been used wrongly." claims that usage 2 is wrong, but confirms that usage 2 is applied, just wrongly. There would be no point in discussing whether usage 2 is correct or wrong if it was never applied. Maybe we are misunderstanding each other? Maybe you talk about "disputing that using 'beg the question' in the sense of 'raise the question' is a correct usage", while I talk about "disputing that the phrase 'beg the question' is used in the sense of 'raise the question' at all"; could that be a source of misunderstanding?
1363:(note I'm not the above IP poster) IMHO that line of thought falls to pieces considering the choice to use the exact phrase âbegs the questionâ (or any close misrecollection that was intended to be such,) rather than any other phrasing with the words âbegâ or âquestion.â That is a clear indication such speakers are (dimly) aware of and struggling to refer to the specific logical fallacy, typically to lend a âhighfalutinâ air to their own speech, rather than innocently mashing together words in an arrangement that resembles the fallacy's name by coincidence.
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the absurd putting-words-in-my-mouth claim that I'm arguing that etymology is not what etymology is defined to be; I of course am doing no such thing. Yeah, etymology includes study of historical usage. Again, that tells us nothing about "correct usage". The very fact that there is such a thing as "the evolution of a word's meaning" should make that clear. Etymology is an area of scientific investigation, not a normative arbiter ... science never tells us what is "correct" behavior. --
959:"the State" is just a specific case of a community here; one could replace the word "community" with "State" and it would be the same argument. But it's not circular because the conclusion differs from the premise. It is however invalid, because there is a hidden and erroneous premise that what is highly conducive to the interests of a community must always be, on the whole, advantageous to it ... not so, as there could be other competing interests of the community. --
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agree that's true in the majority of cases but think that usage is more elastic: "I am thirsty. I beg water of you." You could argue that it is more proper to phrase it differently but this seems idiomatic enough, though a little old fashioned. The question of the correctness of the use is really overshadowed by the obvious need in today's world for the modern meaning.
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referring to the people subject to that State. One could rewrite it as, "Freedom of speech is an advantage to the government because the individuals among the people can freely express their feelings." (Basically, turned into a question : How is the government going to correctly govern if its people can not freely tell it what things are going wrong?) â
918:
which is not the case. The writer stated "something must be real for it to be experienced" as a part of his explanation, but the statement is of nothing more than the reason that a person who thinks he has experienced paranormal activity can logically infer that paranormal activity is real. I have decided to delete this example from the page.
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water.") but the first example seems idiomatic enough, though a little old fashioned. In the first, "water" is the direct object while in the second "a man" is the direct object. Perhaps more examples of parallel usages to "begs the question" from published works could be provided to fill out the picture. If I find any I'll post them.
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I was under the impression that "begging the question", as commonly used, refers to someone making a statement which will prompt or require the response the speaker desires. For example, an employee being asked by a supervisor, "Doesn't our company have a great leadership team?" If the employee wants
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The question of the correctness of the use is really overshadowed by the obvious need in today's world for the modern meaning. There would be literally tens of thousands of examples if one were so inclined to comb through media transcripts. That part does not seem arguable at all. It means today what
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The example relating to paranormal activity is clearly erroneous in my opinion as the writer of the passage assumed that a person needs to assume that paranormal activity is real in order to conclude that he has experienced a paranormal activity (and therefore infer that paranormal activity is real),
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Agreed. The question seems best answered by examples of modern ("incorrect") usage, which I hear just about every day on news programs, juxtaposed to former usages in rhetoric and argumentation which were in fact correct by the understanding of those users. As far as the transitive form of the verb I
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There are two usages of "begging the question": 1. fallacy uage, 2. "raise the question"-usage. My points are these: a) The article does not "dispute" anything. What it does it says, "Most of the time the usage 2 is applied, rarely the usage 1, so don't make a fuss if someone uses 2." This is still a
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The sentence doesn't beg the question, but the argument given by prescriptivists does: The "modern" sense is incorrect because the classic sense is correct. As for "it's pretty common within etymology" -- etymology is not meaning, and has nothing to say about what is "correct usage". P.S. Gotta love
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For myself though, I would really like to see an etymological breakdown of the contemporary usage, and see if those early examples did involve people incorrectly using the existing phrase, or if it was said by people who had never heard the original phrase. Because that would indicate whether or not
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state, such as Israel, may decide to end negotiations." Both have the same meaning, referring to the government of Israel.) In the quote in question, however, it is differentiated by the use of capitalization which means here it refers to a government entity (capitalization isn't always used to make
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is disputed. Is it the fact that "beg the question" is used in a certain way or whether this way of usage is valid? So, what the
Knowledge article should say is "..., although the validity of such usage is sometimes disputed." Additionally, most of the article is making the point that using "beg the
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I don't agree with your assessment. Question begging, as the article states, is usually understood to mean the informal fallacy of assuming the conclusion within the premises. This may be because the argument is circular, or somewhat more generally that the argument assumes a premise that is itself
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implies that "wool sweaters are superior to nylon jackets" if and only if e.g. one assumes that "wool sweaters" necessarily have higher wool content than "nylon jackets". I suppose this assumption is true by common sense for many people, but just from the names "wool sweaters" and "nylon jackets" I
1343:
As far as whether the transitive form of the verb does NOT encompass begging a thing, I agree that it is true in the majority of cases but think that the usage can be more elastic: "I am thirsty. I beg water of you." You could argue that it is more proper to phrase it differently ("I beg a man for
977:
The second part is trickier. Yes, there can be competing interests, but there can also be competing situations of advantage. Something can advantage one party or group within a community and disadvantage others - but that is covered in the wording and you kind of glossed over that. Even your use of
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Can you quote the exact passage in the The
Guardian article, which does this mentioning? I do not find it. It mentions that some people in a comment section (which seems to be the least credible source, Knowledge could be quoting in my opinion), corrected an author of yet another article, when that
943:
is a fallacy because the second clause is just a restatement of the first clause. I don't agree. The first clause talks about the the advantage to the State, while the second clause talks about advantage to the community. A state is not the same thing as a community. There is, to be sure, a hidden
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applied, even if - as the commenters believe - it was a false usage. A false usage is still a usage. For example "begs the question is best avoided as it is almost invariably misused: it means assuming a proposition that, in reality, involves the conclusion ... What it does not mean is 'raises the
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People so often misuse this phrase, I think it would be helpful to have a: "Not to be confused with 'raising/prompting the question' at the start. However, the existing notice is there because of a template, and there is no article for "raising the question" but there is this article's section on
1283:
That etymology is not the end-all-be-all of definition or usage is certainly true. But to say etymology is neither meaning nor has anything to say about correct usage is bordering on absurd. Etymology is the study of the historical origin, usage and evolution of a word's meaning. You're basically
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question" as "raise the question" is fine. I think it is not a fair representation-wise to use the article to support the opposite point of view. Thus, I would simply add, "However, some argue that the usage in the sense of "raise the question" is in fact more common and should not be rejected."
521:
Currently, the article claims "The phrase "begs the question" is also commonly used in an entirely unrelated way to mean "prompts a question" or "raises a question", although such usage is sometimes disputed." This sounds like the cited reference from The
Guardian provides evidence that "begs the
1245:
That said, it's pretty common within etymology to treat the first definition in history as the "correct" one, especially if it was in use for many years (centuries) before the secondary or modern usage. And that's doubly true if early examples of contemporary usage all appear to be the result of
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In the quote, it is talking about this meaning of "State" (a government entity), while the word "community" takes the place of "Nation" (both refer to the people governed by the State). "State" and "community" are not the same thing as one is referring to the government entity and "community" is
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by another editor was reverted with the explanation "POV". Quite by coincidence, I made almost the same edit. The original edit was correct and should have stood. The "POV" comment is bizarre. Anyone with any powers of observation can be in no doubt that in everyday
English "beg the question" is
973:
Agreed on the first part. The OP here is confusing "a state" with "the state." The former just refers to a mid-level form of organization and government, generally somewhere between a city/town/village and a nation/country/republic. The latter is a broad term to refer to the governing body of a
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Particularly risible is the closing paragraph of the article, incoherently dribbling that prescriptivists object to such abuses because we âhold them to be incorrect.â Uh, yeah, anyone who doesn't believe in categorization of âcorrectâ and âincorrectâ language as worthwhile, is by definition a
729:
I agree with 92.22.149.83's 12/9/20 removal of the bad example about "Hero Man". The problem is that it is germane to the paragraph (and
Herrick quote) following it, which made no sense after this less than ideal example was removed and not replaced with a better one. And I find that following
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can only be true in some specific contexts, but since no specification of the context has been made for this statement, it would be weird to assume the context to be one of the particular contexts under which the statement is true, instead of a general context. Hence regardless of whether the
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Strictly speaking, the misused form "beg the question" is grammatically incorrect, because in the intransitive form of "beg", it should be "beg for the question". The transitive form of "beg" has the target of begging as the object of the verb, e.g. "I beg you", "he begged the passer-by for
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About the only thing I get out of this article is that no-one can explain what "begging the question" actually means. The examples are painfully unclear, the writing muddy, and the writers/editors of this article seem absolutely determined to expound on their arcane knowledge
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to remain employed, they are forced to say yes, if not to make a more flattering comment in praise of corporate leadership. I grew up in the New York City metropolitan area, perhaps this was just a local idiom. I am curious if anyone else hs a similar interpretation.
940:"To allow every man an unbounded freedom of speech must always be, on the whole, advantageous to the State, for it is highly conducive to the interests of the community that each individual should enjoy a liberty perfectly unlimited of expressing his sentiments."
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question" is NOT used as "raise the question". However, the reference provides evidence, that "begs the question" is only rarely used as a fallacy and MOSTLY used as "raise the question". Thus, the change 20:26, 29 November 2023â is correct. Why was it reverted?
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This article probably needs to be blown up and restarted from scratch. At the very least, someone needs to come up with a simple, clear set of examples for what this phrase meant in its classic sense. I mean, it sure beats me. I read the article, and I
1340:: It seems best answered by examples of modern (so-called "incorrect") usage, which I hear just about every day on news programs, juxtaposed to former usages in rhetoric and argumentation which were in fact correct by the understanding of those users.
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I just found and added what I think is a reasonable example to support the paragraph that follows it that is an example listed in
Fallacies and Pitfalls of Language: The Language Trap. Came upon the exmaple via a nice ThoughtCo article on the subject.
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application of usage 1. However, the
Wikpedia-article says "The phrase "begs the question" is also commonly used in an entirely unrelated way to mean "prompts a question" or "raises a question", although such usage is sometimes disputed." The
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city/town/state/county/nation/republic/etc. It's a reference to the interests of the body in charge, that makes legislation and has an obligation to defend "the state's interest" in any law which restricts activities of anyone it applies to.
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A lengthy criminal record is indeed bound to contain some sort of mention of the accused being in conflict with the law. However, it is not formerly stated as a premise that such a record exists, and the conclusion is false if it doesn't.
1306:
The ânewâ usage does not arise from any fresh approach to rhetoric, but sheer ignorance, the misapplication of a precise term due to faulty understanding, or lazy learning. Like using âproblematicalâ to mean âdifficultâ or âtroublesomeâ.
1310:âIâm like really hungry and thirsty and stuff but I like left my wallet at home, so, yeah, that like begs the question of how Iâm like gonna pay to eat and stuff. So, yeaahhhhhhhhâŚâ is a current misusage couched in a knucklehead idiom. --
1426:'For example, the statement that "wool sweaters are superior to nylon jackets because wool sweaters have higher wool content" begs the question because this statement assumes that higher wool content implies being a superior material.'
1221:"Prescriptivist grammarians and people versed in philosophy, logic, and law object to such usage as incorrect or, at best, unclear. This is because, it is claimed, the classical sense of Aristotelian logic is the correct one."
944:
premise: that things which are advantageous to communities are also advantageous to states, and one could quibble about that. But if the listener accepts that premise as plausible, then there is no fallacy in the statement.
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in all situations - it's the same thing as saying, "generally," "in most cases," "for the most part," etc. It's specifically clarifying that, while it is true more often than not, it is not going to be true in every single
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people misunderstanding the existing definition. So, their argument isn't exactly saying it's the correct one because it's correct, so much as it's the correct one because it's usage far predates the contemporary usage.
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This sentence is correct if the existence of a number N is granted. However, it is not stated as a premise but implied within the sentence. Should such a number not exist (and it doesn't), the conclusion is false.
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paragraph quite helpful, and completely confusing the way it was left incorrectly referencing what was meant to be a valid counterexample to begging the question (and incidentally unnecessary in my opinion.)
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No, the sentence does not beg the question, the passage describes people engaged in an argument that could be considered begging the question, in the
Aristotelian fashion. Hence the "it is claimed" in the
1613:
How about, "the premises do not provide independent grounds or reasons for accepting the conclusion"? Or, "the premises assume the conclusion without supporting it with independent grounds or reasons"?
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I agree that the article needs a better explanation and example of something that "begs the question" in the older, formal sense of the term. I'm adding an example section to the top of the article.
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denote the statement "for every wool sweater and every nylon jacket, if the wool sweater has higher wool content than the nylon jacket, then the wool sweater is superior to the nylon jacket".
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In the following examples, the premises indeed seem to "support" or agree with the conclusions. So for the layperson, can the definition be sharpened? Can counterexamples/fixes be added?
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To be most effective, the "question" of the example should be something that the reader has no way to know whether it is true or false; and the argument should have three or four steps.
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people think it means. It would, however, make everybody a little better informed if we understood the where the modern usage came from and how our ancestors spoke and thought.
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Knowledge is based on reliable sources, not the original thoughts of editors. If you can find some RS that uses that language, then it can be incorporated into the article. --
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It being grammatically incorrect really has no bearing on the question at hand here, which is whether it is meaningful to deem as "incorrect" the most common usage of a phrase.
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Rather than perpetuating the mistake, shouldn't this article be titled "assuming the initial point" with a note that it is often mistranslated as "begging the question"?
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on
Knowledge. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the
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wool sweaters), since no context has been given. In order for this statement to be begging the question, the underlying context must not contain a justification of
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The article itself does not dispute usage 2, but it does mention that some people dispute it, therefore it supports the claim that usage 2 is sometimes disputed.
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2. Can we have something at the head of the article noting a "not to be confused with" the "raising the question", even if it's not using that template. -
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Sorry, I donât see the contradiction? The article supports that it is âcommonly used to mean âraises a questionââŻâ but that it âis sometimes disputedâ.
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Being able to factorize the positive natural number N into two unique sets of prime numbers proves that the Fundamental Theorem of Arithmetic is false.
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The "modern" meaning is very clear, but mostly thanks to the example given. Why not give a couple of examples for the "classical" one too,
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I read this and was very confused by what we are trying to demonstrate here. The conclusion follows from the hypothesis. I'm removing it
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I agree with IP on "Coca Cola is the most popular soft drink in the world. Therefore, no other soft drink is as popular as Coca Cola."
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don't know. No wonder the modern meaning is completely trouncing the older one -- even its defenders can't coherently explain it!
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is true â since in general the quality of the sweaters is not solely determined by how good the material is, we can only infer from
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author applied usage 2. However, this does not dispute the fact that usage 2 is applied. If anything, it confirms that usage 2
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I think my experience is a bit different than yours, but really what is needed her is some source which says what you assert.
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The description of the "classical" meaning is so confusig that now I wonder whether even Aristotle knew what he meant for it.
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begs the question, because begging the question is the problem of an attempted justification of a statement by another
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statement is begging the question, the explanation in the article of why it is begging the question is problematic.
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The article of alternative usages of "Begging the question" provides evidence to the contrary of the article's claim
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denote the statement "wool sweaters are superior to nylon jackets because wool sweaters have higher wool content".
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Again, this is just deduction. If the first sentence is untrue then it's a false premise, but the logic is sound.
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Coca Cola is the most popular soft drink in the world. Therefore, no other soft drink is as popular as Coca Cola.
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Can "supporting it" be replaced by another verb or extended and made more specific via "supporting it by. . ."?
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is obviously not a part of general knowledge, and in fact most people would assume it to be in general false).
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1472:(Note that this statement is weaker than the analogous statement with "wool sweater" replaced by "sweater".)
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is referring to usage 2 - in contrast to the The Guardian article. Was I able to express myself more clearly?
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1. Can "Vernacular" be changed to something more meaningful, e.g., "Vernacular for 'raising the question'".
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To ensure we don't mislead the reader into thinking "begging the question" necessarily means false premise.
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This is just deduction. If the first sentence is untrue then it's a false premise, but the logic is sound.
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has not been (independently) justified in the context of concern (where we are limited to considering only
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articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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denote the statement "this statement assumes that higher wool content implies being a superior material".
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In the second paragraph of the first section of the current version of the article, it is written that:
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Oh! That is indeed what I mean by âdisputedâ. Would âcontestedâ be clearer then? Or maybe âobjected toâ?
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Glancing into the lengthy criminal record of the accused will reveal a history of conflict with the law.
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This article begs the question: if I'm using "beg the question" incorrectly, how could I possibly tell?
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trying to explain the concept in abstract and full generality? That is a basic teaching technique...
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People have known for thousands of years that the earth is round. Therefore, the earth is round.
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One can assume Asia is not the smallest without therefore assuming the it has the largest area.
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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All birds that are black are ravens; therefore, all birds that are not ravens are not black.
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used with the "incorrect" meaning. Most people have no knowledge of the "correct" meaning.
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assuming the initial premise to be correct also means assuming the conclusion is correct.
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I do not think that the word "disputed" is the issue in itself, but that it is ambiguous
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Does this sentence at the end of the article beg the question, or am I just confused?
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God possesses all the virtues. Benevolence is a virtue. Therefore, God is benevolent.
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Asia is the largest continent; therefore, Asia has the largest area of any continent.
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Asia is not the smallest continent because it has the largest area of any continent.
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it's a misusage or a dual evolution of the phrase - which is certainly plausible.
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. â
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Deleting the erroneous or at best very confusing example in the first paragraph
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Examples are related to circular reasoning which is a related fallacy.
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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
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The way the example is now stated doesn't really fit. The line is now:
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I've updated the example to use the same wording as the reference.
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The following would be better examples of begging the question:
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The examples currently posted in first paragraph are incorrect.
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Problematic example about sweaters and jackets at the beginning
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arguing that etymology is not what etymology is defined to be.
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We should also include an example which has a *true* premise:
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How about "pretends to demonstrate what it already assumes"?
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This is appeal to popularity, not begging the question.
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You might be thinking of a loaded or leading question.
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Regarding the question of whether it is correct to say
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The description of the "classical" meaning is confusing
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Please see my comment in the "Incorrect" post above.
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Deleted "Hero Man" example broke following paragraphs
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1507:Regarding whether the statement begs the question:
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1115:But this does not align with the conclusion:
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