Talk:Bitola - Knowledge (XXG)

1061:

Just they can change the pronunciation according to the language of the new people, or they can be translated in the language of new people. This is not the case only with Slavs and Greeks, but everywhere. For example, the mounteen Orbelas preserved its name (losing the initial -or) Belas and gaining slavic suffix (-ica). Vardar changed its name from Axios to Velika (which mean the same), and most of the cities preserved their names (old cities). So probably Obitjal is translation for Monastir, if it is not from a form like Bouteli. That -lja (Bitol-j, Bitol-ja) might be an older suffix which has the same meaning as today's -ovo, so the name to mean 'a place where there are monasteries' etc. But it may also mean the same as the Skopje municipality Butel, for ex. It remains not very clear. And I am not a Greek. It seems to me, however that a name of a city would hardly come from monasteries.

645:. However, you can notice that this word is not directly derived from the Greek word Monastery (Obitel and Monastery as words have completely different structures). According to every source I found so far in the written literature I had, the Byzantium sources called the town Butela, Butelion, Botila, Botili, even Pelagonia as it is stated in Britannica. I believed that the naming section satisfies both sides, because it provides the description of the Slavic word Obitel, as well as the fact that the Turkish, official name of the city before 1913 was Monastiri, derived from the Greek word for monastery (although we have no source for this claim). I also tried to explain that on the 3346:

were mentioned twice. Repetitive use of the title "of Bulgaria" is clearly tendentious, as those figures are not known as "of Bulgaria" in any historiography, including the Bulgarian one (as a the matter of fact the articles on corresponding Knowledge (XXG) are never named as such, and there is no need of that whenever the article title is a unique name, especially in the case of Gavrilo Radomir). Throughout the whole article no other rulers are name "of ", which is right and in accordance with general and Wikipedias principles. I see no other reasons, except a suspicious non-NPOV motives for accentuating only one state when referring to medieval rulers.--

539:). But, please notice that in the table is described the ratio between the city population (69.251) and in the farmers (66.278), in other words, about a half of the Kumanovo municipality citizens lived in the villages. So, in that period Kumanovo had approximately 70 000 citizens. Also, notice that the city population on the census performed in 1994 dropped to 66.237 (you can see that in the same article). The cituation in municipality of Bitola is much different because the population that live in the villages is much smaller than the population that live in the town. You can also check the following data from the 1994 census (click on the picture): 846:

Monastir were Slavicised by the Bulgarians in the turn of the century. The later Slavic predominance in the region can thus be derived. I don't see we should not include that information in the article. The reason I haven't tried it so far, is because I didn't want to make provoking edits against the Slavic crowd. However, after having seen User:Bitola's arrogant persistance of not recognising the original Greek name of the city by making ludicrous statements such as "the Turkish name 'monastir' probably derives from the greek 'Monastiri'", or that 'Monastiri and Bitola don't have the same defitions", I have changed my mind.

636:. Regarding the name, it is considered that the current official name have been gradually derived from the old Slavonic word Obitel. So far, I found two different meanings for the word, the first one tells that it means a monastery, monastery place or monastery settlement and the second one tells that it means a family or house, an area of living. Very interesting fact that supports the second meaning is that the modern Serbian/Croatian word for family is Obitelj (I’m not sure for the other Slavic languages as Russian and Bulgarian): 335: 314: 345: 860:

translated it to "Monastiri"? Even if that's the case, it is still possible that Greeks preceded Slavs, who were in turn succeded by Greeks, to end to Modern Slavs. There is no end in this, unless someone can provide the complete history of the name. The debate is for who named the town after the meaning of "Monastery" first. We need to trace back in time and see which people (Greeks or Slavs) had reasons to name it as such.

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the authorities to declare "Macedonians", actually they say the truth. Because they are Macedonians indeed, although the term "Macedonian" has a different meaning for the Greeks. They are just Macedonian Greeks (like Cretan Greeks, Peloponnessian Greeks etc.). If there was freedom and democracy in the "Republic of Macedonia" we could see the actual number of the Greeks.Chrusts 09:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

1783:. At the beginning of the 18th century the Turkish population was very considerable, but since that time it has continuously decreased. A low birth rate, the exhaustion of the male population by military service, and great mortality from epidemics, against which Moslem fatalism takes no pre-cautions, have brought about a decline which has latterly been hastened by emigration 191: 250: 2934: 2821:{{Citation | last = Room | first = Adrian | title = Placenames of the world: origins and meanings of the names for 6,600 countries, cities, territories, natural features, and historic sites | place = Jefferson, N.C. | publisher = McFarland & Company, Inc. | year = 2006 | edition = 2nd edition | page = 60 | isbn = 0786422483 }}</ref: --> 2892: 1613:

that flows as well. And stylistically, I think "The Slavic names A/B/C and the Greek name D" is a little heavier; but I would not object to exchanging the order. But isn't it a little silly to be quibbling about that? As for the Ottoman name, it is "Manastir" (obviously derived from the Greek name) as the article already says. --

939:, while Monastiri was an urban one, is not redundant, because even if they settled there, they wouldn't have called it Bitola, unless they meant something of their religion relevant to the Christian monastery. If these are true, then I am covered, and the article should be reverted to the original version of Latinus. 2641:

Izmir. So the Monastiri reference should be up there next to Bitola. However, Florina had almost zero exposure as Lerin - just look at the maps; also the Lerin appelation already exists in the paragraph below. Any other choice for those two cities is, in my opinion, political (if not irredentist motivated).

2529:(which I should have done previously), and I read carefully the other side's arguments, which are logical. So, personally, I can understand the presence of the South Slavic name in Florina's article, and I hope that you'll all also can understand the presence of the Greek name in Bitola's article! Cheers!-- 2786:

This section needs a quick spelling/grammar clean up: "Children from differend countries such as EU,Russia,Ukrain,Serbia,Croatia,BiH and Macedonia participate on this event which is usually consisted of 18-22 songs. This festival is supported by the association of culture "ProMedia" from Bitola which

2082:

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on

2007:

1622:

Although I’m officially on wikibreak, I don’t want to leave the things unfinished. I agreed and still agree with the Makrakis proposal. I just made a little rewording of the section in order set up equal mentioning of two most important names for the town and in the following order: 1. official name

703:

Ok, but what is wrong then? I already left in the article that the Turkish name probably was translation of the greek word. But, why are you reverting the first paragraph where I describe the recent, official name of the city? The fact that the recent name of the city origins from the old Slavic word

629:

Finally to hear something reasonable. Because I created the recent look of the article, I'm feeling responsible what will stay in it. My actions are not done based on my personal feelings; instead, I used several different historical sources. According to almost every source I found so far, Bitola as

478:

The main evidence is the "Republic of Macedonia" policy. During the last 10 years a lot of Greeks are terrorised by the "Republic of Macedonia" police. These are described in the European Court of Hague. Greeks are not free to declare their Greek identity. Another reason is that as they are forced by

457:

The existance of Greeks in Monastiri/Bitola is not a political game. It is a fact. Greeks of Monastiri live not because of a political dispute. They live in Monastiri as their grand grand parents for over 4.000 years. I don't think they live in Monastiri only for causing political disputes. They just

2528:

You previously in an edit summary said "if you have a problem with Florina name" go there! So why now do you confuse the two issues?! Anyway, if I have to speak about the "Lerin" issue, I removed indeed the Lerin from Florina in a rushy decision, but then as 3dAlcove told me, I checked the talk page

1008:

When Slavs settled the town in the VI century (according to almost all sources on Internet and in the written literature I have), it was done in the vicinity of the ancient town of Heraclea Lyncestis which was already an important episcope centre. Archaeological excavations revealed rich presence of

3045:

I think that Hristijan Spirovski and Nikolce Noveski should be removed from "People from Bitola". Dimitar Ilievski - Murato and Georgi Hristov are more remarkable than the other two, or at least you should add them in the main list in Bitola page, if there is no limit of how many names should be in

2640:

It's a question of frequency of usage, international exposure. The city is clearly referred to as Monastiri until well after WWI, and rarely as Bitola - just look at the postcards, despaches, references. Its fame and fortune was built under the name Monastiri. Likewise for Istanbul, Alexandroupoli,

2279:

Isn't there a guideline about how wiki editors shouldn't care about OTHERSTUFFHAPPENING (yeah, like the Balkaneers would follow it anyway)? I re-added it in Florina. There REALLY should be a guideline concerning names in the Balkans. Intro, not intro? Special cases if a significant minority exists?

1633:

Your rewording is fine by me. The current name specified first is undisputably correct. Had we known better, we would include information about who named it with the meaning of the word "Monastery" first. I hope sources stating that will come up. I too, believe there are amicable solutions to every

1318:

Do you really believe that I’m so immature after all I have done on WP? Although I’m not satisfied with the current solution (I will explain why or try to edit the section in the future), I have nothing with the current edit war around the Bitola article. My edits on that article ended on 17 March

1060:

It is very unlikely the Greek word to derive from the Slavic (Monastir to come from Obitjal), because Slavs came later. The city was there already. Almost each of the significant places (whether mounteen, river, or towns) are preserved in the language of the newly came populations, it is a pattern.

1028:

I agree with you Macrakis. As for the sources from the 11th century, we have incorporated in the article that the Slavic name of the city is mentioned in one of the tsar Samoil treaties. But, do you have some source from the 11th century that the name Monastiri was used in that period? If you have,

845:

The Ottoman Census of Hilmi Pasha in the beginning of the 19th century stated that the millet of Monastir was predominantly Greek. This data is already cited in the talk page of Macedonians(ethnic group). I have a book in the Balkans (from a British) author, which states that many Greek villages of

430:

Obtielj = Bitola is the reading of original Beitola the other way around or from reverse. The present name is from Ottoma era "Beitola" which from Arabaic means the House of God. In fact, when the Ottomans conquered the city, they found it like the House of God. Given that the name of God in Arabic

3345:

Medieval history of the region is one of the least documented periods of its history. There are no direct or indirect sources of Clement's and Naum's activity in the area, and including them only by the virtue of Ohrid being geographically close to Bitola is not adequate. The medieval monasteries

2981:

BalkanFever: your edit stated, "whats the point of having three variants of the same name if they're not in english? especially since they are better treated in the etymolgoy section". I might call on your services in other articles to back me up. I leave your edit as it stands. Just one point, do

2692:

So basically what you're both saying is that you agree with examining every case separately. We have seen that in action and I'm not sure it is clear enough in the way things have to be clear in such an unproductive environment as the Balkans. In terms of previous consensus, many many times people

2448:

I entered again the Greek name of the city, which IMO is necessary for obvious reasons (and it is difficult indeed for me to understand the reaction of certain users, such as Balkan Fever). Whether we like it or not, Greek history is related to this city, where the Greeks and Byzantines flourished

2201:

The title has Greek:Monastiri, i was wondering what sources there are that have Greek as the second most spoken langauge in Bitola? Last time i checked Roma were 3,46%, albanians at 2.36%, turks - 2.1%, Aromanians- 1,34%, Serbs - .66%, Bosnians - 0,002% and others at 0,67% or 497 people. Where are

1038:

In the area of Bitola there were never ever,any Greeks.It is propostrous to think that the area of Bitola has been Greek speaking when it wasn't.It is more certain that Peloponez had Slavs,rather than Bitola to have Greeks.I think that anything has to do with the dominance of the church,whether it

2509:

It has nothing to do with offence or not believing it's a name. If I'm not mistaken you removed Lerin from the Florina lead because you didn't believe it was an alternate name. I didn't have a "reaction" to this, it's a way of avoiding problems. You very well know someone will remove the Greek at

1612:

Realek, you seem to be reading "X and the synonymous Y are attested..." to imply that Y is somehow secondary to X. I suppose you could interpret it that way, though that wasn't my intent in writing it. Would you prefer "X and Y are attested...; they are synonymous"? Stylistically, I don't think

616:

There is currently a revert war between editors claiming that the Greek name Monastiri came first and editors claiming that the synonymous Slavic name Obitel came first. Instead of just reverting back and forth, it would be more productive to provide documentation for these claims. If there are

462:

According to the latest census held in 2002, There are 95 385 people living in Bitola, 84 616 (nearly 90%) are Macedonians,followed by Albanians - 4164 (nearly 4%), Romas (2613), Turks (1160), Vlachs(1270), Serbs (541) and there are 550 citizens that declared themselves as "Other". Even if all of

2565:

Just spotted that. I have always agreed with what BF says. Can we agree once and for all (with a decision that actually binds all of us) that only the name in the country's official language will be on the lead paragraph and all the others should be at the name section? There was such a de facto

2672:

The Turkish case is different. Turkey markets its former-Hellenic cities under their Hellenic names - just look at their official brochures (admitedly, it does not recognise them as Greek, but as Helleno-Roman, Roman, Ionian, Lydian, etc). This, they believe, enhances their European credentials

1093:

At least, you could revert the page but include the corrections made by neutral users for irrelevant to the Greek origin of the name data (like Macrakis' correction of the link to the Greek wikipedia). Furthermore, the particular ip range 62.162... can be safely assumed that it evidently is the

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the Slavic arrivals. You are interpreting it the way you would like to believe it was. This is all speculation as Macrakis correctly notes. Your version is original research. In fact, Columbia says that its former name was Monastir and does not say, nor imply that it was ever called Bitola or

859:

Miskin, your sources are undisputed but refer to as late as 19th century. Is it possible that Slavs were in that city sometime between 6th and 19th century, before Greeks came and pushed them out (epecially during 11th)? Is it possible, that they established the name Bitola before the Greeks

2587:

I have no problem to agree on that if there is a consensus, although I am not 100% sure it is the correct thing to do. IMO each article should be examined separately, and if there is a basis for an additional name to be added why not. And this "de facto agreement" referred to which country?

503:

I live myself in Monastiri,and there was never Greeks around the present Republic of Macedonia.This is an attempt by Dora Bakoyanis,to trigger violence,for an apparent Greek minority in my country...I think you guys confused Greeks with Vlachs,and I'm one of them...So there you go,bye...

1019:

Greek-speaking monks in this place, but that the settlement near it was Slavic-speaking. You see this sort of thing in Britain, in Gaul, etc. In any case, all of this is speculation. Until someone comes up with better sources, I see no reason to presume that either name is original. --

1018:

The earliest source for either name is 11th century, by which time the Slavs had been christianized. Do we know whether they were christianized when they settled or named the place? I haven't seen any sources either way. Moreover, it is perfectly possible that there was a monastery of

2490:

If the Greek name is so "non-grata" for the Slav-Macedonian users, I have no problem to put the magic word "formerly" before the Greek name, or even to write in Latin "formerly Monastir"; my intention is not to offend anybody's sensitivity, but neither to conceal a part of the city's

1319:

2006 , 00:19. Since than, I didn’t make any single edit there! Actually, when I stopped with my edits on the article, I was a little bit frustrated and decided to take my “extended wikibreak” seriously, so you will not see me much around these days. Anonymous editing is not my style.

1270:

BTW, if a range block is needed (doubtful - semi-protection could suffice), a whois check reveals that the IP range is 62.162.0.0 - 62.162.255.255, so we can assume (within reason - there may be more than one user in his city) that if an IP from that range reverts, it is User:Bitola.

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is now searching a way to block me from editing. If that will satisfy you, then please, go on, maybe if we Macedonians give up from editing (I must admit that I'm considering that option seriously), you can freely write everything you want, regardless if that is true or not.

2456:, where, although there are very very few Greeks in the city, the Greek name is there. And how could it be different?! We speak about more than 2,000 years of Greek influence in the area. And the same stands for a series of other now-Greek or now-Turkish cities (see 533:, you are mixing a town with a municipality. Bitola is the second largest town in Macedonia after Skopje and third largest municipality after Kumanovo. Lets see the data presented from the census in 1991: Then the municipality of Bitola had a population of 122,173 ( 3246:

https://web.archive.org/web/20141104203728/http://emagazin.mk/%D0%B2%D0%BE-%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B0-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8-%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8-%D0%B7%D0%B0/

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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on

2449:

for centuries; this is also the case for the spreading of the Greek language. After all it is the article itself which states that until 1911 the Greek element was dominant in the region. So erasing the Greek name from the lead is historical blindness!

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have been reverted and never came back in Balkan city articles when someone told them that there is a consensus on not putting other names in the lead. Otherwise we could have repeated occurrences of mass-changing of the lead paragraph like what

1761:

and other important places. In many of these towns half or more of the population is still Turkish. A series of military colonies were subsequently established at various points of strategic importance along the principal lines of communication.

3429:

Apart from teaching in the respective languages, these schools were not owned by the Ottoman authorities, but by the respective ethno-religious and linguistic community officially recognized by the Ottomans as a separate ethnic entity.

2656:

It is not accurate Avg that such a consensus covered Greece-Turkey articles. You can see previous discussions and Baristarim's comments when Turkish names were removed from some Greek cities' leads. In any case, I agree with Politis'

3116:

According to Athenean, Edith Durham is not a reliable source when she says that there were Orthodox Albanians living in Bitola, but strangely in the same article you can find Edith Durham, but this one seems reliable to Athenean:

1335:. It is very unlikely that the constant reverts are by him. We will just have to wait and see what happens. In the mean time, all sides should be checking that the current version stays, while they search for reliable sources. 2677:, as our Turkish friends know, there is no overt or covert attempt by Greek rhetoric to appropriate those cities via their name. Also, in the west, those cities have a long history of being referred to by their ancient name. 2471:

dis article! So, are we going to pretend that all these things just do not exist?! And conceal a part of the city's history? Because that is exactly what the Greek name expresses. A part of the city's rich historical past.

3381:

Hello, I recently changed a segment of the Ottoman schools to specify that they had taught in the specific languages yet had my edit reverted and told that it is not an improvement. May I get an explanation for this,

3250:

http://emagazin.mk/%D0%B2%D0%BE-%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B0-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8-%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8-%D0%B7%D0%B0/

3120:

A former dragoman who witnessed the Balkan Wars noted in January 1914 that "hardly a year has elapsed since Monastir fell into Servian hands, and this very short period has been enough to turn it into a desert city."

2740:

Nobody (even then) said that not mentioning something in the lead means not mentioning it at all. Alternative names are important and it is undoubtedly encyclopaedic to include them, the issue here is only their

768:

the names Bitola (or variants thereof) and Monastiri are attested in the 11th century. It is perfectly possible that even then Slavic-speakers (such as Tsar Samuil) called it Bitola and Greek-speakers called it

1623:

2. former name (I think the recent look is slightly biased). I hope nobody will find offended by this and that this article will become an example of good cooperation between the Macedonian and Greek editors.

738:

That the names Bitolj (Serbian) and Bitola (Macedonian) have been used during most of the 20th century (I would guess, but am not sure, that the official name was changed to Bitolj immediately after the Balkan

1552:

It's an enquiry, not an accusation - that one at your IP, was to see if you'd respond (thereby proving that it was your IP). I suspect that this IP belongs to someone else for technical reasons - see above...

2329:

Well, it was introduced "per Florina" so OTHERCRAPEXISTS can work both ways here. As I have always said, regardless of the supposed strength (or sanity) of the arguments, names in other languages in the lead

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In any case, if those disagreeing with me want more third-party input, this is no problem of course. I support an open invitation to any third-party editors are interested in to express their views.--

783:

Until the matter is clarified, we take no position on which name came first, and simply state that Monastir(i) and Bitola are synonyms, and both are attested as names as far back as the 11th century.

2764:

Consistency's not bad, of course, but I honestly don't think it matters much if names are featured in the lede or in a separate section. At least, I don't bother moving from one place to another.

1132:. In this post, he says that he agrees to Macrakis's proposal and once he implements it, he uses a sock to revert it (while pretending to be someone else). Thus far, we have the following socks: 463:

them are Greeks, it represents 0.5 % of the total population of Bitola, so there is no evidence that there is some significant number of Greeks living in the city today. They just don't exist:)

2168:

is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Knowledge (XXG) policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

2079:

is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Knowledge (XXG) policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

2004:

is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Knowledge (XXG) policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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The relationship between Heraclea Lyncestis and Bitola/Monastiri. Had Heraclea completely disappeared? Was Bitola/Monastiri a new settlement outside the walls of Heraclea (perhaps of Slavs)?

2588:

Greece-fYROM, all the Balkans, what? And with the Greece-Turkey cities we'll have a different "de facto agreement" (because the current consensus seems to be quite the opposite there)?--

2510:

some point, and someone will remove the local Slavic (Macedonian) from Florina, and then it will have to continually be reverted, even though they are both in a "name" section anyway.

918:

As far as I know the Slavic invaders were settled in rural places, as the cities could not be penetrated. Is there an argument for a non-Christian people to name a city "Monastery"?

577:

Bitola is the name used by the people of Macedonia. Also, I think that this article has a lot of Albanian POV. Somebody with better knowledge of the city history should check this.

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It does not mention a translation - have you even read it? The Slavic names are included in certain Greek towns and cities. You can write about them being renamed when you find a

2237:

Historically important (yes, no Greeks left today at all)? Why does everyone constantly bitch about the names? Like a Slavic or Greek name is going to ruin your country's image.

3361:

Keep to the rules of Knowledge (XXG). If you disagree with some articles' names, disuss it on the corresponding articles' talk page and gain a consensus to change it. Thanks.

3170:

The name Manastir was in use in Ottoman times. The Macedonian Alphabet is in use after 1944, i.e. it is impossible the name to was written in Macedonian during Ottoman times.

1819:

The second, or central group begins on the sea-coast, a little west of the mouth of the Strymon, where a Greek population intervenes, and extends to the north-west along the

1365:

I dont think it should say its translated from one language to the other because we havent determined the direction of the translation. We should find a more neutral solution

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No its not! But it makes perfect sense! So that is what your accusation on my IP adress page was... Like I said - dont make accusations based on your subjective thoughts! --

672:

What are you talking about? If you look at what the Columbia Encyclopedia says, it does not say that it was founded by Slavs, nor does Britannica. It mentions its existance

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artefacts from the Early Christian period (see my new adds on the article) and maybe that was the reason why Slavs started to use the name related to Christianity: Obitel.

1777:. Further immigration from this region took place from time to time up to the middle of the 18th century. After the establishment of the feudal system in 1397 many of the 3473: 423:

Wasn't naming of the country solved already elsewhere? If not, then the name use by the people of Macedonia should be used and disputes left to article about the state.

391: 3287: 3283: 3269: 3255: 2820:(monastery or abode), since the city was formerly noted for its monastery. When the meaning of the name was no longer understood, it lost its prefix "o".<ref: --> 2460:

etc.). And don't tell me "raise the issue there, do not bother us here." Because all these examples indicate a certain practice, which should be taken into account.

2429:

Nice one. They still speak 'local Hellenic' in Bitola and some of the surrounding villages, but the 'local Hellenic' speakers call it Ellinika (Greek). But so what.

1575:

If you rangeblock the IP you will block 80% of the Macedonian editors. Don't block it, make a workgroup to create an article acceptable for both sides, be objective.

999:. It would be simpler to just find some maps of the Justianian era. I do have a bunch under my possession but those sources are currently physically innaccessible. 147: 3478: 367: 79: 3458: 3235: 3189:

Leasten, you Americans: Stop converting the facts about Slavish poulation in this region, in contrary we could ask from Russia to solve the problem!!!

2149:, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with 2146: 2060:, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with 2057: 1985:, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with 1982: 657:

talk pages. Unfortunately, some users don't know nothing else than mercilessly reverting what I have built not easily and in a really good faith. Even

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Actually I was referring to an overall Balkan pre-existing consensus, including Greece-Turkey articles. This also has been reversed recently. Check

358: 319: 85: 2915: 2726:, where there was no consensus, and see also, as an example, Rhodes' lead. Should we exclude from Rhodes' lead the Italian and the Turkish name?-- 2827: 2177: 2088: 2013: 1780:

Seljuk noble families came over from Asia Minor; their descendants may be recognized among the beys or Moslem landowners in southern Macedonia

3463: 2945:- ie it adds useful info about the topic that could not reasonably be incorporated into the article, and it does not appear promotional. The 780:

We do more research on the early name in good sources — Macedonian and Greek newspapers, government publications, and Web sites do not count.

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If we should include that here, we should include the slavic names of geographical places in northern greece and mention their rename.

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Which came first, the name Monastiri or the name Bitola? If we believe the references in the article (which someone should verify),

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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I believe that if pictures were put on both sides of the page, not just on the right, the article may be more pleasing to the eye.

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sockpuppet of a certain editor that has been blocked for repetitive reverts. Please stop, or there will be grounds for requesting a

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https://web.archive.org/web/20141104193400/http://www.tera.mk/index.php/vesti/aktuel/80636-zatvoren-konzulatot-na-velika-britanija

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That Monastir is derived from the Greek name Monastiri, either because of Greek dialectal phonology or the borrowing into Turkish.

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shepherds. Besides these fairly compact settlements there are numerous isolated Turkish colonies in various parts of the country.

687: 650: 603: 495: 1287:. He just told Macrakis that he agrees with his proposal and then reverts him using socks and leaves trollish edit summaries. -- 74: 263: 227: 202: 3113:

Latest revision as of 17:46, 5 January 2012 (edit) (undo) Athenean (talk | contribs) (edith durham is not a reliable source)

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is possibly derived from the many churches. This shiould be clarified, if possible, or the mention of the churches removed.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20080329085722/http://www.nbrm.gov.mk/default-en.asp?ItemID=A82826138490824E874DC0F6B8BCE3DE

3150:, namely she is 1) not a scholar, and 2) extremely biased. Thanks for pointing out the above, I will remove it as well. 3146:

Well, some of the reasons Edith Durham is not considered a reliable source are presented in...the wikipedia article on

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Hmm, Thessaloniki was formerly a Turkish city officially called "Selanik" before it became part of the Greek state.

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I agree and please, if the other editors have no objection on this, rewrite the section according to your proposal.

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The Turkish rural population is quiet, sober and orderly, presenting some of the best characteristics of the race.

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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organized this event under a different topic every year.The only award at this festival is for interpretation."

642:. Maybe the truth lies (as always) in between, probably the word means a Christian/monastery community, family: 2792: 2187: 1359:

Ok, if user Bitola agrees then I wont object for the moment. Anyway I dont object per se but I do on 2 points:

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It could be that the Turkish name comes from the Northern Greek dialect where unstressed /i/ has disappeared.

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anything similar prior to that. What is your source that says that it was called Bitola in the 6th century? --

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So you wouldn't object to it being the other way around (that's the logical conclussion of your statemant) --

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That the Ottoman name was Monastir. (Hence the Columbia Enc. statement that its "former" name was Monastir.)

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and appears to be a static one, whose else's can it be, but Bitola's. It also appears to be a dynamic IP. --

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Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's clear in the article but can I get an explanation as to why it was reverted?

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They lived the most of their life in Bitola, so I guess that is making them a notable people from Bitola.

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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The third, or southern, group is centred around Kailar, an entirely Turkish town, and extends from Lake

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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it says that they were born in the village of Avdela. Shouldn't they be removed from here or does this

1423:. Why is the slavic name a "synonym"? Concerning your remark about the renaming - I'll will look for a 1073: 70: 2068: 2040: 1993: 1965: 1331:

The current version of the article has been agreed by all editors that appear in the talk, including

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is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under

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is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under

1969:

is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under

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Is it the third largest?! Is it the second largest?! Who knows? If you can't agree, leave it out. -

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a settlement was established by the Macedonian Slavs that shifted in this area in the VI century:

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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stramota kade e tuka durlovski najdobriot makedonski operski pejac,pa i toj e bitolcanec neli?

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to relegate both of them to the name section, and others have agreed. But it's not a big deal.

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I will undo the change of Athenean, because it seems that it just directed towards Albanians.

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Both the Greek name Μοναστήρι 'monastery' and the synonymous Slavic names Obitel/Botelja/etc

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Were does Manastır name comes from ? Kailar was the big city of Manastır and Ana Britanica

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to see how often the term "Monastir" appears. And even here in Knowledge (XXG) we have a

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http://www.tera.mk/index.php/vesti/aktuel/80636-zatvoren-konzulatot-na-velika-britanija

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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is Allah, and of the Kabba "Beit-Allah", then it is clear what Beit-A(o)lla means.

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As far as i know because i come from Bitola,it is the 2nd biggest city in Macedonia.

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I more than agree to this proposed solution in order to end this mindless edit war.

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You know what's odd - their blocks have already expired. Why do they use socks? --

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The 1911 Edition of Encyclopaedia Britannica about Yuruks, Kailars and Konariotes

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good arguments on both sides, then NPOV says that both should be documented. --

3278:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 1892: 1828: 1726: 340: 245: 3240:

http://www.nbrm.gov.mk/default-en.asp?ItemID=A82826138490824E874DC0F6B8BCE3DE

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emperors before the conquest of the country. The first purely Turkish town,

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Apparently they are more abundant than the Macedonian speakers in Florina.

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wouldn't be yours by any chance would it? Hmm... sockpuppetry galore... --

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This is pure original research. No data to back Bitola being 2nd largest.

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originally comes from Kyrgizistan. Old people of Manasdır were look like

1772:, in Asia Minor, had settled in the country; their descendants are still 1707:

people,also they were poetic people and some words of them used only in

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please tell me and we could include that in the section as well. Thanks

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No such irrational argument by me. Please present your sources that

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Bulgarian, Serbian and Romanian language schools in Ottoman Bitola

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Knowledge (XXG) article constitutes fair use. In addition to the

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Knowledge (XXG) article constitutes fair use. In addition to the

1981:

Knowledge (XXG) article constitutes fair use. In addition to the

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Could someone take a look at the statement and reference above (

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The Turkish rural population is found in three principal groups:

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and is not derived from the number of churches. Rather, Obitelj

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That Bitola/Obitel and Monastir/Monastiri mean the same thing.

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If you wouldn't mind bringing it up at the new noticeboard?

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seems to confirm that it is an official tourist info site.

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We incorporate all the undisputed content into the article.

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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agreement but recently this seems to have been reversed.--

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Knowledge (XXG):Ethnic and cultural conflicts noticeboard

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Isto Mile - Kuburot da ne go zaborajte da go spomnite.

2405:). As opposed to those bizzare "local slavic dialects". 1695:

Ottoman writing: (منسطر )M-N-S-D-R in latin)drived from

3124:^ Durham, M.Edith. Twenty Years of Balkan Tangle, p255 2698: 1531: 1305: 1301: 1285: 1253: 1217: 1187: 1157: 1130: 713:. Why you always have a need to complicate the things? 2117:

Fair use rationale for Image:MKD muni flag(Bitola).png

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subject, and wish our governments thought the same...

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Historical writing of the name Manastir in Macedonian

362:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 267:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 3282:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 2176:. If you have any questions please ask them at the 2087:. If you have any questions please ask them at the 2012:. If you have any questions please ask them at the 1864:The second and third groups are mainly composed of 1460:.aren't they?there is no mention of 'translation'-- 584:According to the article, it appears that the name 174: 1764:Before 1360 large numbers of nomad shepherds, or 536:) and the municipality of Kumanovo had 135.529 ( 33:for general discussion of the article's subject. 2452:There are also other similar examples, such as 3268:This message was posted before February 2018. 2353:Agreed. Let's just leave them out, shall we? 732:Let us see what is agreed on and what is not. 8: 2294:We're trying to figure out something here - 2255:stuff. Otherwise it wouldn't be a problem.-- 2166:Knowledge (XXG):Fair use rationale guideline 2077:Knowledge (XXG):Fair use rationale guideline 2002:Knowledge (XXG):Fair use rationale guideline 2982:the Albanian Macedonians call it Manastir? 1808:, reaching the sea-coast on either side of 376:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject North Macedonia 3190: 3109:Why Edith Durham is not a reliable source? 308: 216: 3218:I have just modified 3 external links on 3474:High-importance North Macedonia articles 2463:After all, just make a quick serfing in 2028:Fair use rationale for Image:GRB201.jpg 1953:Fair use rationale for Image:GRB201.jpg 1940:Oks, that's what I wanted to know :) -- 937:Slavic invaders settled in rural places 310: 218: 188: 2543:And I do, I'm just saying it would be 2334:the arguments, and so they should go. 1419:It doesnt but it misleads towards it: 1917:mean people that have lived there? -- 7: 3479:WikiProject North Macedonia articles 1125:Actually, I think that than anon is 379:Template:WikiProject North Macedonia 356:This article is within the scope of 261:This article is within the scope of 3459:C-Class WikiProject Cities articles 2899:Please explain notability of link. 2808:According to Adrian Room, the name 1792:the most easterly extends from the 1725:The first Turkish immigration from 1456:the greek and the slavic names are 933:Slavic invaders were non-Christian. 207:It is of interest to the following 23:for discussing improvements to the 1812:, which is partly Turkish, partly 289:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Cities 14: 3222:. Please take a moment to review 50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome! 3469:C-Class North Macedonia articles 3401:These schools were not Ottoman. 2932: 2890: 2860:New portal for tourism in Bitola 2164:. Using one of the templates at 2075:. Using one of the templates at 2000:. Using one of the templates at 1308:serve any purpose whatsoever? -- 343: 333: 312: 248: 238: 220: 189: 45:Click here to start a new topic. 2305: 2303: 2301: 2262: 2260: 2258: 2130:Image:MKD muni flag(Bitola).png 1675: 1670: 1665: 1660: 1655: 1650: 1647: 1644: 1641: 1638: 1636: 1340: 1227:As I doubt that they belong to 1103: 980: 975: 970: 965: 960: 955: 952: 949: 946: 943: 941: 901: 896: 891: 886: 881: 876: 873: 870: 867: 864: 862: 830: 596:is presumably a translation of 396:This article has been rated as 2397:I would not object if it had ( 2178:Media copyright questions page 2112:19:40, 22 September 2007 (UTC) 2089:Media copyright questions page 2014:Media copyright questions page 1877:10:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)-- 1741:in 1362. After the capture of 1737:, was founded on the ruins of 1300:User:Bitola, does this recent 1039:was Bulgarian,Serb or Greek. 447:23:21, 28 September 2014 (UTC) 1: 3336:23:13, 27 November 2017 (UTC) 3082:23:09, 20 February 2010 (UTC) 2797:00:37, 9 September 2008 (UTC) 2251:That's just an answer to the 2147:boilerplate fair use template 2058:boilerplate fair use template 1983:boilerplate fair use template 1082:18:04, 25 November 2012 (UTC) 473:09:49, 23 February 2009 (UTC) 370:and see a list of open tasks. 283:and see a list of open tasks. 42:Put new text under old text. 3464:All WikiProject Cities pages 3180:19:17, 29 January 2013 (UTC) 2444:Why the Greek name is needed 2174:criteria for speedy deletion 2085:criteria for speedy deletion 2010:criteria for speedy deletion 3160:18:43, 5 January 2012 (UTC) 3140:18:39, 5 January 2012 (UTC) 3067:18:41, 9 October 2009 (UTC) 2844:17:05, 2 January 2009 (UTC) 1827:ranges in the direction of 1609:(Back to the left margin.) 359:WikiProject North Macedonia 295:WikiProject Cities articles 292:Template:WikiProject Cities 3495: 3299:(last update: 5 June 2024) 3215:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 3205:14:46, 23 March 2016 (UTC) 3103:14:22, 23 March 2010 (UTC) 3041:Notable people from Bitola 3033:01:36, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 2697:is doing with his scripts 2158:the image description page 2069:the image description page 1994:the image description page 1915:Notable people from Bitola 1684:21:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC) 1628:18:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC) 1618:15:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC) 1571:05:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC) 1558:00:33, 20 March 2006 (UTC) 1548:00:29, 20 March 2006 (UTC) 1539:00:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC) 1498:00:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC) 1465:00:10, 20 March 2006 (UTC) 1432:00:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC) 1399:23:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC) 1374:23:41, 19 March 2006 (UTC) 1347:10:15, 19 March 2006 (UTC) 1324:09:00, 19 March 2006 (UTC) 1313:00:30, 19 March 2006 (UTC) 1292:23:23, 18 March 2006 (UTC) 1276:21:03, 18 March 2006 (UTC) 1265:20:55, 18 March 2006 (UTC) 1120:20:49, 18 March 2006 (UTC) 1110:20:28, 18 March 2006 (UTC) 1055:14:30, 12 March 2010 (UTC) 1034:19:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC) 1024:18:56, 20 March 2006 (UTC) 1014:18:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC) 1004:18:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC) 989:17:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC) 923:17:08, 20 March 2006 (UTC) 910:17:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC) 851:16:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC) 837:10:07, 19 March 2006 (UTC) 817:20:45, 18 March 2006 (UTC) 807:18:06, 17 March 2006 (UTC) 793:14:57, 17 March 2006 (UTC) 718:02:19, 17 March 2006 (UTC) 691:02:12, 17 March 2006 (UTC) 682:01:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC) 667:01:23, 17 March 2006 (UTC) 622:23:21, 16 March 2006 (UTC) 546:13:21, 16 March 2006 (UTC) 402:project's importance scale 3371:03:44, 15 June 2020 (UTC) 3356:23:03, 14 June 2020 (UTC) 3015:10:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC) 2992:09:23, 30 July 2009 (UTC) 2967:05:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 2774:18:59, 18 July 2008 (UTC) 2756:11:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC) 2736:10:34, 19 July 2008 (UTC) 2716:18:52, 18 July 2008 (UTC) 2687:17:39, 18 July 2008 (UTC) 2667:17:28, 18 July 2008 (UTC) 2651:17:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC) 2621:16:36, 18 July 2008 (UTC) 2598:08:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC) 2581:21:14, 17 July 2008 (UTC) 2561:13:28, 14 June 2008 (UTC) 2539:13:25, 14 June 2008 (UTC) 2524:04:26, 14 June 2008 (UTC) 2501:17:16, 13 June 2008 (UTC) 2485:17:09, 13 June 2008 (UTC) 2439:16:12, 12 June 2008 (UTC) 2402: 2385:11:40, 12 June 2008 (UTC) 2363:11:32, 12 June 2008 (UTC) 2348:11:30, 12 June 2008 (UTC) 2318:09:40, 12 June 2008 (UTC) 2290:09:33, 12 June 2008 (UTC) 2275:09:29, 12 June 2008 (UTC) 2247:09:27, 12 June 2008 (UTC) 2231:08:07, 12 June 2008 (UTC) 2212:06:13, 12 June 2008 (UTC) 2192:13:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC) 2160:and edit it to include a 2071:and edit it to include a 1996:and edit it to include a 1582:17:53, 4 April 2007 (UTC) 607:14:03, 6 March 2006 (UTC) 427:18:20, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) 395: 328: 233: 215: 80:Be welcoming to newcomers 3440:10:07, 21 May 2021 (UTC) 3425:07:13, 21 May 2021 (UTC) 3411:06:46, 21 May 2021 (UTC) 3396:03:23, 21 May 2021 (UTC) 2997:Apparently they call it 2722:Avg, see the discussion 2415:09:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC) 2139:explanation or rationale 2098:23:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC) 2050:explanation or rationale 2023:05:01, 1 July 2007 (UTC) 1975:explanation or rationale 1945:11:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC) 1932:10:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC) 1922:10:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC) 1899:17:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC) 1882:22:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC) 565:16:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC) 520:09:18, 1 June 2010 (UTC) 382:North Macedonia articles 3211:External links modified 2943:external linking policy 2941:Makes sense to me, per 2699:in hundreds of articles 1768:, from the district of 1566:should be Realek's IP. 2834:is probably in order. 2125: 2036: 1961: 592:. If this is so, then 351:North Macedonia portal 197:This article is rated 75:avoid personal attacks 2918:) 18:23, 22 July 2009 2880:) 09:22, 22 July 2009 2854:{{editsemiprotected}} 2280:This is just tiring. 2141:as to why its use in 2124: 2052:as to why its use in 2035: 1977:as to why its use in 1960: 1909:In the article about 1729:took place under the 1284:Yes, still reverting 1089:To constant reverters 788:What do you think? -- 201:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 100:Neutral point of view 3280:regular verification 2812:is derived from the 2202:the greek speakers? 1875:Apostolos Margaritis 1699:. Because people of 105:No original research 3270:After February 2018 2977:Monastiri, Manastir 2695:User:Carlossuarez46 1775:known as Konariotes 526:Second largest city 453:Greeks in Monastiri 3324:InternetArchiveBot 3275:InternetArchiveBot 2162:fair use rationale 2126: 2073:fair use rationale 2037: 1998:fair use rationale 1962: 275:and various other 264:WikiProject Cities 203:content assessment 86:dispute resolution 47: 3300: 3207: 3195:comment added by 3093:comment added by 3070: 3053:comment added by 2965: 2920: 2908:The New Mikemoral 2906:comment added by 2882: 2868:comment added by 1304:which earned you 1085: 1068:comment added by 1045:comment added by 935:The second point 812:Count me in... -- 704:is a common fact: 510:comment added by 500: 486:comment added by 437:comment added by 416: 415: 412: 411: 408: 407: 307: 306: 303: 302: 183: 182: 66:Assume good faith 43: 3486: 3334: 3325: 3298: 3297: 3276: 3105: 3069: 3047: 3011: 3006: 2964: 2962: 2956: 2950: 2940: 2936: 2935: 2919: 2900: 2898: 2894: 2893: 2881: 2862: 2802:Slavic etymology 2753: 2752: 2751: 2750: 2713: 2712: 2711: 2710: 2618: 2617: 2616: 2615: 2578: 2577: 2576: 2575: 2557: 2552: 2520: 2515: 2404: 2381: 2376: 2344: 2339: 2314: 2313: 2311: 2309: 2271: 2270: 2268: 2266: 2227: 2222: 2137:but there is no 2103:Picture Location 2048:but there is no 2041:Image:GRB201.jpg 1973:but there is no 1966:Image:GRB201.jpg 1681: 1679: 1674: 1669: 1664: 1659: 1654: 1649: 1646: 1643: 1640: 1637: 1344: 1339: 1259: 1256: 1240: 1237: 1223: 1220: 1204: 1201: 1193: 1190: 1174: 1171: 1163: 1160: 1144: 1141: 1107: 1102: 1084: 1062: 1057: 986: 984: 979: 974: 969: 964: 959: 954: 951: 948: 945: 942: 907: 905: 900: 895: 890: 885: 880: 875: 872: 869: 866: 863: 834: 829: 562: 560: 522: 499: 480: 449: 384: 383: 380: 377: 374: 353: 348: 347: 346: 337: 330: 329: 324: 316: 309: 297: 296: 293: 290: 287: 258: 253: 252: 251: 242: 235: 234: 224: 217: 200: 194: 193: 185: 179: 178: 164: 95:Article policies 16: 3494: 3493: 3489: 3488: 3487: 3485: 3484: 3483: 3449: 3448: 3379: 3343: 3328: 3323: 3291: 3284:have permission 3274: 3228:this simple FaQ 3213: 3187: 3168: 3122: 3111: 3088: 3048: 3046:the main list 3043: 3009: 3004: 2979: 2960: 2954: 2951: 2933: 2931: 2901: 2891: 2889: 2863: 2851: 2832:reliable source 2804: 2784: 2746: 2745: 2744: 2743: 2706: 2705: 2704: 2703: 2611: 2610: 2609: 2608: 2606:role on that.-- 2571: 2570: 2569: 2568: 2555: 2550: 2518: 2513: 2446: 2427: 2379: 2374: 2342: 2337: 2307: 2264: 2225: 2220: 2199: 2119: 2105: 2030: 1955: 1907: 1905:Manaki brothers 1889: 1718: 1692: 1680: 1337: 1254: 1238: 1233: 1232: 1231:, as his IP is 1218: 1202: 1197: 1196: 1188: 1172: 1167: 1166: 1158: 1142: 1137: 1136: 1100: 1091: 1063: 1040: 985: 906: 827: 575: 558: 555: 528: 505: 481: 455: 432: 425:Pavel Vozenilek 421: 398:High-importance 381: 378: 375: 373:North Macedonia 372: 371: 364:North Macedonia 349: 344: 342: 323:High‑importance 322: 320:North Macedonia 294: 291: 288: 285: 284: 254: 249: 247: 198: 121: 116: 115: 114: 91: 61: 12: 11: 5: 3492: 3490: 3482: 3481: 3476: 3471: 3466: 3461: 3451: 3450: 3447: 3446: 3445: 3444: 3443: 3442: 3378: 3375: 3374: 3373: 3342: 3339: 3318: 3317: 3310: 3263: 3262: 3254:Added archive 3252: 3244:Added archive 3242: 3234:Added archive 3212: 3209: 3186: 3183: 3167: 3164: 3163: 3162: 3119: 3110: 3107: 3095:131.247.13.225 3042: 3039: 3038: 3037: 3036: 3035: 3018: 3017: 2978: 2975: 2974: 2973: 2972: 2971: 2970: 2969: 2924: 2923: 2922: 2921: 2884: 2883: 2850: 2847: 2824: 2823: 2803: 2800: 2789:Menrunningpast 2783: 2780: 2779: 2778: 2777: 2776: 2762: 2761: 2760: 2759: 2758: 2670: 2669: 2638: 2637: 2636: 2635: 2634: 2633: 2632: 2631: 2630: 2629: 2628: 2627: 2626: 2625: 2624: 2623: 2504: 2503: 2458:Alexandroupoli 2445: 2442: 2426: 2425:Local Hellenic 2423: 2422: 2421: 2420: 2419: 2418: 2417: 2390: 2389: 2388: 2387: 2366: 2365: 2327: 2326: 2325: 2324: 2323: 2322: 2321: 2320: 2234: 2233: 2198: 2195: 2184:BetacommandBot 2118: 2115: 2104: 2101: 2095:BetacommandBot 2029: 2026: 2020:BetacommandBot 1954: 1951: 1950: 1949: 1948: 1947: 1935: 1934: 1906: 1903: 1888: 1885: 1862: 1861: 1844: 1817: 1717: 1714: 1713: 1712: 1691: 1688: 1687: 1686: 1607: 1606: 1605: 1604: 1603: 1602: 1601: 1600: 1599: 1598: 1597: 1596: 1595: 1594: 1593: 1592: 1591: 1590: 1589: 1588: 1587: 1586: 1585: 1584: 1576: 1513: 1512: 1511: 1510: 1509: 1508: 1507: 1506: 1505: 1504: 1503: 1502: 1501: 1500: 1478: 1477: 1476: 1475: 1474: 1473: 1472: 1471: 1470: 1469: 1468: 1467: 1443: 1442: 1441: 1440: 1439: 1438: 1437: 1436: 1435: 1434: 1408: 1407: 1406: 1405: 1404: 1403: 1402: 1401: 1381: 1380: 1379: 1378: 1377: 1376: 1368: 1367: 1366: 1363: 1352: 1351: 1350: 1349: 1316: 1315: 1302:trolling spree 1297: 1296: 1295: 1294: 1279: 1278: 1225: 1224: 1194: 1164: 1139:62.162.188.223 1123: 1122: 1090: 1087: 1047:115.64.173.237 994: 993: 992: 991: 926: 925: 915: 914: 913: 912: 854: 853: 842: 841: 840: 839: 820: 819: 800: 799: 798: 797: 796: 795: 786: 785: 784: 781: 778: 772: 771: 770: 759: 758: 757: 751: 750: 749: 746: 743: 740: 733: 725: 724: 723: 722: 721: 720: 696: 695: 694: 693: 655:user:Hectorian 627: 626: 625: 624: 611: 610: 588:is older than 586:Obitelj/Bitola 574: 571: 570: 569: 568: 567: 557:/FunkyFly.talk 531:Pulvis angelus 527: 524: 512:115.64.173.237 476: 475: 454: 451: 420: 417: 414: 413: 410: 409: 406: 405: 394: 388: 387: 385: 368:the discussion 355: 354: 338: 326: 325: 317: 305: 304: 301: 300: 298: 281:the discussion 260: 259: 243: 231: 230: 225: 213: 212: 206: 195: 181: 180: 118: 117: 113: 112: 107: 102: 93: 92: 90: 89: 82: 77: 68: 62: 60: 59: 48: 39: 38: 35: 34: 28: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3491: 3480: 3477: 3475: 3472: 3470: 3467: 3465: 3462: 3460: 3457: 3456: 3454: 3441: 3437: 3433: 3428: 3427: 3426: 3422: 3418: 3414: 3413: 3412: 3408: 3404: 3400: 3399: 3398: 3397: 3393: 3389: 3385: 3376: 3372: 3368: 3364: 3360: 3359: 3358: 3357: 3353: 3349: 3340: 3338: 3337: 3332: 3327: 3326: 3315: 3311: 3308: 3304: 3303: 3302: 3295: 3289: 3285: 3281: 3277: 3271: 3266: 3261: 3257: 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