1135:
To put this "release" in "1957" is revisionist history. The material was recorded and released, for the most part, by 1950. That's when it had its historical impact, and that's where it belongs in Miles Davis' history. The 1957 re-release was merely an attempt to keep up with format changes, with a few "bonus tracks" added, as is done even today with re-releases. How can we move forward with this? My attempt at fixing this yesterday was reversed. Looking up this talk page, clearly I'm not the first who has felt this way about the page.
1975:
his or hers (or their) position. Anyway! On with it. The second party's edit (which had remained, according to them for over a year here before I reverted it today) had made the release date in the infobox to claim "February or March 1957" and same in the lead, with multiple sources cited together, one claiming the March release and the other two or three claiming
February. I reduced it to one source after seeing enough sources that made it in my mind a majority claim. After a bit back and forth, much off-topic, here we are.
1250:, How does this policy apply to music created in the pre-album era? (Which is what this is.) The physical release date of the majority of this material was 1949, and 1950, because in that era, the only medium on which jazz was consumed was 78 rpm singles. And that's when these recordings were actually released. Would you like me to create a page for each of the singles released on this album, in their proper place? Would that resolve it for you?
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played in the Royal Roost band but not on the studio recordings), and one by Phil Schaap about the radio broadcasts. It seems anal to me to insist that BOTC means the eleven tracks on the original 12" LP, the CD insert says that "Darn That Dream" has been included on the album for more than thirty years. (On getting out the RVG reissue, the
Welding and Mulligan pieces are used as notes for that too, but not the Zwerin or Schaap). --
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to be placed. I'm still awaiting justification of your yanking this music way out of the context of when it was actually created. Historical impact, in the case of Miles Davis, CAN be assessed. I will resort to several hardcover books for citations of this, if I must. Which is what the "average reader" would have done, prior to
Knowledge. I find _your_ edit of this to be to be arbitary, and even POV. So we are at an impasse.
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1319:. If I were trying to learn about the progression of Miles' Davis' music, which any number of people might want to do, I would not be able to use the infobox. You seem equally obsessed with keeping the infobox "unhelpful." Why? What does it mean so much to you to yank this album out of the chronology of when it was created? Who is that helping?
1637:. They may just mean that those albums are commercially available at the time of the magazine issue's publication, and it does not negate the possibility they'd been released the month before. Especially if, as you cited, another magazine had confirmed just as much. Anyway, I've replaced it with a better source for February 1957.
1517:. They may just mean that those albums are commercially available at the time of the magazine issue's publication, and it does not negate the possibility they'd been released the month before. Especially if, as you cited, another magazine had confirmed just as much. Anyway, I've replaced it with a better source for February 1957.
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infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article (an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored). The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance." (
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released: in 1949 and 1950. It strikes me as more confusing than helpful to locate this album in 1957, which is really a matter of converting it to the new 12" format. It was a commercial consideration, and most people old enough to have a vague grasp of the history of recording formats understand this.
1162:). An encyclopedia's role is not to clean up the flaws of the past, but to record and capture them as they are, which in the case you are describing, is a messy discography. So be it. As an online encyclopedia, we present content "accurately and in context rather than as 'the truth' or 'the best view'." (
1974:
All right. Since I haven't gotten much response from the second party to this content dispute, particularly some key points, and instead gotten accusations of canvassing, I'm inviting others here in a completely unselective manner, although said party is still welcome to find further verification for
1851:
Refrain from canvassing your personal selection of editors. A simple notification here and or noticeboards if it's really that important to you will suffice. "Research" consisting of googling what you want to be the answer is not persuasive. There were three RS, one published by an academic press and
1480:
There is no forced logic at work. The title of this page is "Birth of the Cool". It's not "recordings made by Miles Davis and arranged by Gil Evans in the late 40s". Hence, the subject of this page is the compilation album "Birth of the Cool". The release date shown reflects that fact. The history of
1134:
In the case of materials recorded AND RELEASED in the pre-LP era, it makes more sense to place them in a chronology reflecting their actual time of first release. In 1949 and 1950, one would have bought a series of 78's to hear this material, and they would have filed them on their shelves together.
597:
For example: If a batch of material was released in a booklet with two 45 rpm singles in it in 1978, and finally came out as a CD in 1985 with a few bonus tracks from 1978, to my mind it would still make sense to place this in a
Knowledge timeline in 1978. And this is typically the way it is done.
2350:
RfCs are meant to start with a brief, neutral, as far as possible, simple question. You can help us if you want by pointing us to prior discussion and pointing us in the direction of sources supporting each/various positions. Reading this is a waste of my time and that of others. I suggest you close
1449:
In fact, the material was conceived as a whole in 1949, and performed as such at the time. I'm hearing you, and noticing the forced logic. Out of curiosity, have you ever held a 78 rpm record or 10" LP in your hand? I'm asking this for the sake of future discussion. You seem to find something really
1434:
In fact, the material was conceived as a whole in 1949, and performed as such at the time. I'm hearing you, and noticing the forced logic. Out of curiosity, have you ever held a 78 rpm record or 10" LP in your hand? I'm asking this for the sake of future discussion. You seem to find something really
1267:
This page, by the way, does not refer to just one album, but to at least five compilations of "Birth of the Cool." First on the page, as it should be, is the release of the singles themselves, in 1949-50. By your own arguments, one could conclude that this is the least confusing place for the page
525:
The "Complete Birth of the Cool" CD includes detailed notes by Pete
Welding about the origins and history of the nonet, which I've taken most of tonight's additions from. It also includes a shorter piece by Gerry Mulligan from 1971 in which he says Miles was the bandleader, one by Mike Zwerin (who
2220:
after you edit warred to try to force through your edit, I largely agree with you. As a matter of weight, I see no value in including a footnote about the error in the usually reliable trade journal source. I suggest withdrawing the RFC, as no-one opposes the change now that you've cited scholarly
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I appreciate your good faith desire to ensure reliable sources are cited. Your claim that it represents a synthesis is a misunderstanding of that policy: no synthesis has been produced. I maintain that "March album releases" means albums released in March, as that's the natural language meaning of
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There are multiple recording dates involved in this compilation, and in other compilations, otherwise it would not be a compilation. If you want readers to place or give a timeframe to a recording's historical impact, that information and chronological dating can be captured at the article for the
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Although the first complete compilation was released in 1957, this merely is a matter of changing formats. I would think anyone going to
Knowledge to understand the history of jazz would find it more useful to see this page where the lion's share of the material was first performed, recorded and
1215:
You are getting too focused on pimping out the infobox for specialist readers (when the majority of readers don't need such a chronology) and trying to fix something that's not broken. Please keep in mind that infoboxes are not essential to articles for a reason: "When considering any aspect of
443:, however, it was composed by Evans & Davis and merely credited to Henry. As it's officially credited to Henry, his name should stay, but we could add a note about its true origins (though some more support for this notion besides a single online article should be required first). ¦
1464:
8 of these recordings were released by 1950. Should I just make a separate sessions page for them, as i've done for other classic 78rpm-era sessions when encountering this curious lack of understanding of how 78s were consumed? so be it. I'll see you there, maybe.
2020:, because none of the sources is explicit about the exact day of release, and we have multiple sources for each month. Advertisements in music magazines are weak sources because they may precede or follow the actual release date. Point of order: it is
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two immediately contemporary to the event. They disagree on the precise month, so both were given and the sources cited. Deleting all three sources because... well you've made no attempt to justify it so I have no idea why – is not appropriate.
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1150:"In general, all albums and EPs should be placed in a single, chronological chain in order of release date. Exceptions may be appropriate for artists with very complex discographies which may warrant more than one chain." (
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1510:, the proper thing to do now is continue this discussion here, as I cautioned you at your talk page and the recent edit summary. For record's sake, and any other interested parties, I will report my comments here:
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idea, which is what I quoted. You used "or" to combine those dates into that idea; a conjuction doesn't separate words or ideas but combines them. Your entry into the released field is a synthesis.
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idea, which is what I quoted. You used "or" to combine those dates into that idea; a conjuction doesn't separate words or ideas but combines them. Your entry into the released field is a synthesis.
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as the majority claim. And I cited one of those sources. I would not object to an adjascent footnote being made to encapsulate whatever few sources there might be that say March...
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as the majority claim. And I cited one of those sources. I would not object to an adjascent footnote being made to encapsulate whatever few sources there might be that say March...
1881:: I think I justified myself to warrant a discussion and undo your original edit. And I think I pinged editors without any bias, but maybe you can enlighten me about that too ...
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Making a footnote of a minority claim (and potential error) is fine, but some quick research into Google Books' catalogue of online-available publications seems to support
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Making a footnote of a minority claim (and potential error) is fine, but some quick research into Google Books' catalogue of online-available publications seems to support
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I offered a compromise for your (so far) apparently lone source for March. And you had the audacity to defend it with a status quo argument (which doesn't even appear at
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468:...right. I don't really doubt that it's Davis and Evans, but let's not resort to basing all our information off quasi-stubs written by anonymous users. ¦
2172:, and find some sources that back up giving March any weight here. As far as the content is concerned, the March claim is overwhelmingly outnumbered here.
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I thought the same thing, but I could be wrong. I'm an idiot for not owning this CD, so when I pick it up I'll come back here and fix/add what I can.
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because he was under contract from one recording company and then had recorded for another. This is not uncommon during that time of the 40s and 50s.
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Cleo Henry is a false name given due to contractual copyright problems; it is Davis and Evans. Charlie Parker used the false name of
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I did nothing of the sort. Are you now arguing that
February and March are the same idea? This is veering into the absurd. Following
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that phrase; it's also the purpose of listings such as those in trade journals i.e. indicating to retailers newly available product.
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Go project and blame deflect onto whoever's lodged a complaint against you at ANI. See how far your pretenses get you there.
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I have already told you why. You keep asking for reasons and explanations, yet not listening or accepting what I've said.
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I don't know how "pimping" has any connection to what I am doing, and that's not a terribly kind expression to use,
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a synthesis of sources to tell the reader that one group of sources says
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the March claim with some wording that frames it as a minority claim against the many other sources listed below.
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the recordings which appear on the compilation are discussed in the body of the article. It's not rocket science.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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You're clearly a know-it-all when it comes to my ulterior or unconscious motives. Why would I stop now?
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This is accurate. I've added this and cited a respectable source (Sultanof's article on the subject).
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https://web.archive.org/web/20080924120325/http://www.jazz.com/dozens/the-dozens-the-birth-of-the-cool
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on
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Which of the sources you cited concludes it was released in "either
February or March of 1957"?
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Which of the sources you cited concludes it was released in "either February or March of 1957"?
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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wanted to play this game. Now you have your poorly sourced claim tagged up, ugly and all...
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2242::: Why would I withdraw the RfC if my point is to make this a battleground, as you say???
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this either/or release date(s) attributed to two contemporaneous trade magazine albums ads
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of talk templates. Now that you have adduced a number of scholarly sources, rather than
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article says the name is Davis's grandmother's, and he and Evans did write the tune. --
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The recording order seems to differ under the headings Recording and Recording Dates.
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Last edited at 07:33, 24 June 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 09:44, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
1952:(about a good faith effort to reach you) that frightens people off of Knowledge...
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http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1578474/a/Birth%2BOf%2BThe%2BCool.htm
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Withdrawing, and apologizing for the stupid portions of my time here. Thank you.
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http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1578474/a/Birth+Of+The+Cool.htm
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https://www.scribd.com/doc/35654619/Miles-Davis-Birth-of-the-Cool-Hal-Leonard
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http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1578474/a/Birth+Of+The+Cool.htm
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to have been recorded in 1949 and 1950, before an album was even a thought.
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Saying the album was released in one month or the other is one idea.
1927:) all to preserve your original edit, or maybe just your ego . . .
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as found at the end of the "Thornhill's influence" section, means?
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A completed infobox, including cover art and most technical details
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here, and agree with the unsigned OP (from 21:03, 7 March 2009)‎
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Which of you musical geniuses can explain to us what the oxymoron
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A track listing containing track lengths and authors for all songs
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It was released in 1957. The date is the release date. Regards.--
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on the back of my copy (2001 RVG reissue on CD). According to
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I'm pretty sure "Boplicity" is by Gil Evans and Miles Davis --
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1711:. For example, the fifth sentence at the top of that policy.
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Pinging some fellow contributors from the article's history:
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Hey. I don't know if you've been creating these speculative
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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Point of order: We don't have multiple sources for March.
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http://www.jazz.com/dozens/the-dozens-the-birth-of-the-cool
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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At least one section of prose (excluding the lead section)
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in 1950 (or 1949). Davis did not record these songs with
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A casual reader should learn something about the album.
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esoteric that i find commonplace, in all our debates.
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esoteric that i find commonplace, in all our debates.
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I sure would love it if others would weigh in on this.
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Sources that name February 1957 as the release date:
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it and if necessary open a new RfC properly framed.
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http://www.jazz.com/jazz-blog/2008/9/3/birth-of-cool
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http://www.jazz.com/jazz-blog/2008/9/3/birth-of-cool
338:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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2074:Miles Davis: The Complete Illustrated History
621:The comment(s) below were originally left at
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8:
2313:Again with the pathetic insinuations 🙄 ...
1633:dates elsewhere, but be careful when citing
1587:. For the record, the content in dispute is
1189:individual recording from the compilation. (
2221:sources giving weight to the earlier date.
545:Why under 1957 albums? Should be 1950, no?
1246:Written before your most recent comment:
698:Categorisation at least by artist and year
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1969:RfC: Which release date should be kept?
1950:This is the kind of self-deceptive crap
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598:In short, I respectfully disagree with
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2066:101 Albums That Changed Popular Music
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401:2001:18E8:2:11B7:25BE:8286:7814:C59A
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23:for discussing improvements to the
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1152:Template:Infobox album#Chronology
1000:. Please take a moment to review
878:. Please take a moment to review
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477:Ian Carr's biography, p55. --
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1742:You used two sources to cite
1726:22:04, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
1692:21:36, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
1675:21:31, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
1647:21:20, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
1625:23:03, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
1601:22:58, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
1551:22:55, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
1530:You used two sources to cite
1100:08:46, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
536:22:45, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
487:15:17, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
473:15:05, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
464:11:03, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
346:and see a list of open tasks.
42:Put new text under old text.
2405:Top-importance Jazz articles
2168:, Please stop it with these
1493:20:13, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
1475:07:17, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
1460:07:04, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
1445:07:03, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
1417:22:59, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
1379:22:58, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
1329:22:46, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
1295:22:42, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
1230:22:37, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
1203:22:33, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
1180:22:28, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
1145:19:19, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
862:05:11, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
648:All the start class criteria
612:19:12, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
589:02:15, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
409:15:31, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
265:Knowledge:WikiProject Albums
2395:WikiProject Albums articles
710:Lacks technical personnel.
268:Template:WikiProject Albums
50:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
2431:
1063:(last update: 5 June 2024)
993:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
947:(last update: 5 June 2024)
871:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
825:(last update: 5 June 2024)
735:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
568:11:03, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
521:Complete Birth of the Cool
447:03:51, 2005 July 20 (UTC)
378:project's importance scale
352:Knowledge:WikiProject Jazz
2415:WikiProject Jazz articles
2208:irrelevant policies, and
1872:I don't see any month in
984:00:26, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
720:07:33, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
636:
513:16:36, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
431:03:40, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
422:13:06, 2005 July 8 (UTC)
371:
355:Template:WikiProject Jazz
304:
233:
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80:Be welcoming to newcomers
2187:You're rather excitedly
2136:February 9 1957 trade ad
2126:Davis, John S. (2020).
2123:'s entry on Miles Davis
989:External links modified
867:External links modified
731:External links modified
2390:B-Class Album articles
2218:citing a google search
197:This article is rated
75:avoid personal attacks
2400:B-Class Jazz articles
1703:The sources are not "
1499:Release date edit war
637:Article requirements:
100:Neutral point of view
1999:but I am willing to
1610:: Cambial Yellowing
1044:regular verification
928:regular verification
806:regular verification
105:No original research
2170:stupid insinuations
2096:The MOJO Collection
1111:"unison harmonies,"
1105:Hey, Wikipedians...
1034:After February 2018
918:After February 2018
796:After February 2018
775:parameter below to
1635:sources like these
1515:sources like these
1353:The album was not
1218:MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE
1088:InternetArchiveBot
1039:InternetArchiveBot
972:InternetArchiveBot
923:InternetArchiveBot
850:InternetArchiveBot
801:InternetArchiveBot
617:Assessment comment
414:Boplicity composer
248:WikiProject Albums
203:content assessment
86:dispute resolution
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2164:Cambial Yellowing
2117:, by Jim Santella
1506:Cambial Yellowing
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19:This is the
2079:Ashley Kahn
2026:Binksternet
1991:Conclusions
1631:synthesized
1160:WP:AUDIENCE
787:Sourcecheck
420:68.5.86.167
327:Jazz portal
148:free images
31:not a forum
2384:Categories
2105:(magazine)
2090:Marc Myers
2056:Discussion
1363:this album
1168:WP:NOTPLOT
1164:WP:PILLARS
1095:Report bug
979:Report bug
857:Report bug
452:Cleo Henry
437:Cleo Henry
257:discussion
2368:Piotr Jr.
2326:Piotr Jr.
2315:Piotr Jr.
2271:Piotr Jr.
2244:Piotr Jr.
2204:, absurd
2174:Piotr Jr.
2149:Piotr Jr.
2141:Billboard
2132:, p. xxiv
2040:Piotr Jr.
2005:Piotr Jr.
1977:Piotr Jr.
1954:Piotr Jr.
1929:Piotr Jr.
1903:Piotr Jr.
1883:Piotr Jr.
1847:Piotr Jr.
1821:Piotr Jr.
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1684:Piotr Jr.
1655:Piotr Jr.
1639:Piotr Jr.
1593:Piotr Jr.
1543:Piotr Jr.
1359:conceived
1078:this tool
1071:this tool
962:this tool
955:this tool
840:this tool
833:this tool
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2353:Pincrete
2292:Cambial
2225:Cambial
2199:personal
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