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did partially convince me there that there's enough recognition of these as subgenres that should be accepted here (and I think that, as the biggest advocates of such view, they should partake in this discussion as well). And if they are treated as subgenres rather than mere ideological movements,
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but also I think anyone who even knows that listing five of the most entry level black metal bands ("Gorgoroth, Bathory, Darkthrone, Satyricon, Bathory and Burzum) and calling them "raw" is absolutely ridiculous. It does nothing to illustrate this section. Simply put: those bands are not raw black
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I noticed when I tried to improve this sections examples by swapping out
Bathory (out of all the bad examples listed there they are undeniably the stupidest) with a band that is undeniably raw like Mütiilation it kind of provoked a a brief edit war between two other editors, mostly because one of
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I don't see any evidence in the sources that this ideologically heterodox strain of Black Metal (edit: referring to RABM) is stylistically different, so presenting the content about this subtopic as a stylistically diverging subgenre appears to be original research. Despite RABM being called a
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I honestly don't remember that discussion, they can go under ideologies. Some genres are lyrically rather than musically distinct. Of those three, the only one that could be seen as musically distinct would be RABM, but even that is just typical, not always. if there's going to be an ideology
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First, it over-highlights these tiny groups of Nazi or
Anarchist or Christian bands. Why should these minority movements have two sections each? Surely it makes more sense to deal with these groups in the one place, instead of having the content broken up and 'scattered' over the article?
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subgenres. It's been suggested that RABM might be different because it tends to include crust punk elements or overlap with the crust scene. But as 3family6 points out, not all RABM bands have crust influences, and it isn't what defines "RABM". So I think the best thing is to go back to
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and have no basis in third-party sources. Also, you removed more sources than the contentious one, and even the contentious one use direct language, it's just that the term "raw" seems to be ambiguous itself, that's why I think that the tagging should be enough, no removal
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them insisted I had a point. Ultimately Mütiilation was removed due to the source not being reliable, but here's the thing; I think all "examples" are just better off kept off not only in accordance with how the source used seems to fail
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wrongly implies that they're distinct musical styles. Most sources don't treat them as such, and even the sources that call them "subgenres" (a vague term) don't say that they're musically distinct. In a
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Well, the great majority of the sources state that Black metal originated as a style from Thrash metal, emerging alongside Death metal. And as a term, most agree that it's mostly associated with
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I was the one who added a lot of the sources for these parts of the article, but as I haven't paid enough attention to the article for a couple of years, this change flew under my radar. –
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I think "subgenre" is a vague term. Usually it means a distinct musical style, but sometimes it's used for groups of bands who're only distinguished by their lyrics or imagery (such as '
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claiming that they actually are. All of them have to agree on the matter, either being or not being subgenres, otherwise it would be confusing for the reader.
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for this matter throughout
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that they shoud be cited on the subgenre section, and more effort should be put on distinguishing them from the broader ideological scope.
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Black metal as a term and arguably as a cohesive style predates thrash and death metal. This quote feels innacurate.
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Again, the statement that they aren't part of this subgenre and that their incluison is "stupid" are your own
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While I still agree with you that these should be considered ideologies rather than a subgenre, both
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on
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Also, you don't need to create another discussion on the matter when there's already one open.
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section. The content was split, so now these movements are discussed twice, under both
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Some of the sources do claim that RABM bands draw inspirations from
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section, it makes sense for those three styles to go there.-
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It seems most of us agree that these should be considered
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I'm okay with any resolution, as long as we mantain
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Knowledge:WikiProject Music/Music genres task force
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