Talk:Black metal/Archive 2

5186:

which has for a large part shaped modern black metal. Also, the 1990 promo of Arcturus, before Darkthrone ever made black metal slow paced. Also, you have actually included a lot of bands there which most feel that they are fringe. (Venom, Celtic Frost and Dimmu Borgir), many agree that those bands are not black metal due to either just the proto-form. Or simply in the case of Dimmu Borgir because it's too much 'gothic metal-like'. The argument is still that if you would slow down any fast paced black metal track by a factor of four. Anyone would still count it as black metal. Which is not the case on death metal. Alluding to the phrase 'Doom metal is just death metal slowed down.' And how does Burzum Thrive on speed in the first place? He has made his fast paced and mid paced tracks to his slow paced ambient and to say that because he has fast paced work he thrives on speed is a bit ludicrous to me. We have already established that fast paced is more common than slow paced or mid paced in black metal. But for it to be a characteristic of it something could not be black metal without fast paced, or at least it should be avant-garde. Saying that it is a characteristic of black metal to be fast paced is again saying that it is a characteristic of music to be in a 4/4 time signature or a characteristic of a species of life to be unicellular.

5063:

felt it ceased to be black metal because of the slow tempo. 'Characteristic' according to Wiktionary is a 'distinctive feature'. Even in typical black metal it isn't and never was. 1990 demo's that started the genre featured medium or slow-paced tracks on it which were still recognized as black metal. I think it is sensible to say that if it were a characteristic feature people would at least comment in reviews of Satyricon phrases like 'The unusual feel of the slow tempo that it brings..' or something in that vein. They will mostly just make a note of it but see it as nothing particularly avant-garde. I agree that it is common in black metal to be fast paced but saying that that is a characteristic of it would be the same as saying that a 4/4 time signature is a characteristic of music, no?

3126:

lacking neutrality. That is obvious bias in what is allowed, and its sickening. Where as my POV is more well rounded and looks at the big picture. Im also in my mid 30s, Ive activly listened to and created Metal music since the 80s. My research is also based on EVERY available documentary on Black Metal, as well as real time interactions with several fairly well known musicians, which ive used to write 4 articles on Black metal, which is more than most have contributed to the scene. The statements I made above, are what has also been said by members of Mayhem, Burzum, Immortal, Satryicon, Darkthrone, Gorgoroth, and others. I have proof of everything Im saying, and with the joke of resources used to pen you BM article its no wonder everyone is indoctrinated to believe more garbage.

3977:

However, on top of this, your understanding of the LLN is flawed. Firstly, you state many of the bands have Knowledge pages; whilst this in itself just not confer notability, the number is in fact five at last count... hardly 'many'. Secondly, you state most of the bands released about 3 albums then disappeared. That again is patently untrue. the vast majority of the bands (and I've trimmed the list on the LLN page but there are still twenty or so) released precisely no albums over the course of their careers. Seemingly, the exception to this rule is Mutiilation. Bottom line is, the article needs improving. if you'd like to help me do that, that would be great, because what we really need are sources. If material cannot be sourced, then it cannot be included on Knowledge as per

121:

similar to the early Norwegian scene where each band had its own look and sound, unlike the later frozen ideals which go against everything Black metal Stands for. If someone actualy things BM is about Corpse paint or Lo Fi recording, they have missed the point and are part of the problem not part of the solution. BM is about Free will, and not following the herd and express this with a very specific ideology. Thus the USA scene as it emerges over the next 5 -10 years, is going to greatly contribute to the evolution of the Genre. Im willing to write articles ont the USBM, but wont waste my time, until I know the info will be respected and not removed every 5 minutes by a European simply because they dont like the US. User: FromByond Dec 2007

1884:

responding sporadically, causing an edit war while continuing to ask the same questions that were already answered; not to learn, but to antagonize. Despite being warned not to personally offend (after calling me a “pedophile” in one edit summary), he goes on to call Scskowron and others “tits” and “untermensch” above. Finally, completely aware of his wrongfulness (but still unaware of Knowledge policies, proper grammar, anti-defamation, or simply how to write an informative article clearly and concisely), he admits in one edit summary to changing his IP consistently in order to return for no other purpose but to raise conflict with users and impose illogical bias, which recently forced an admin lock on the article. ‘’IPs used so far:

2653:

who raised such claims first. The removal of the addition of the comic book edit (which I explored after you post) seemed like much of a stretch and didn't hold strong ties to actual black metal music. Your header adjustment to "Dead's suicide" was fine; I merely took it a little more literal by referencing Ohlin by his birthname. Also, you make a good point about the sentence at the end of the section regarding Bard, and quite frankly, I don't know how that one got reverted in the midst of things. If it seemed like a personal smearing against your edits, I apologize, I just didn't want any details to get lost. As mentioned eariler, I'll restore your efforts put forth with the cite tags. Thanks.

695:

less agressive now, as would be obvious.) I just remembered a quote that I thought would be interesting to add. My friend says that somebody tried to kill Burzum, and defending himself, he killed the person. My friend said that in an interview, he said, completely casually and nonchalantly, something along the lines of, "He tried to kill me, and he failed miserably, so I killed him." Does anybody have any information on this, or know if there was a quote like this at all? From reading the history, I could see where some of it may have been misinterpreted or something somewhere, by my friend, but I'd like to know for sure and have it clarified.

3045:

Each Scene adds to the evolution of the genre and should contribute - I would saying proving this lagisticaly is the hard part. The USA black metal scene has a differant sound to the Norwegian scene for example, as not only have the bands been influenced by Venom, Bathory and others, but also Thrash, Speed, and Death metal, as well as the early Norwegian scene, and other Extreme metal bands that are on the borderline of Black Metal. The early Norwegian scene has obvious Motorhead influences, Venom, Bathory, and Death metal, as most of the early bands were playing Death metal first, and have no influence from the bands postdating themselves.

3581:

awkward (or stupid) that may be understood. As for it being an entire paragraph, I would think it'd be difficult to condense that one. Better then to find a source which takes issue with him. As for Dunn's statement, that is his opinion. An opinion doesn't have to be verified the way you suggest. It is. as I wrote, a spiffy line, and his notability on the subject should be well established. Again, I suggest rather to insert opposing commentary from other reliable sources than removing this. I hope there is a climate here which does not condone the biased editing by BM fans to the detriment of doing unbiased encyclopedic work. __

902:"It garnered criticism from mainstream media because black metal supposedly embraces anti-Christianity, misanthropy, nihilism and sometimes racism and nationalism though not all musicians considered black metal necessarily support these ideologies, especially not the latter two (they are almost exclusive to the sub-genre of National Socialist black metal), perhaps because standard black metal ideology is influenced by anti-idealist philosophers who often regarded racism as a form of idealism or philanthropy." This is a very long sentence. I think this could be more readable. 1460:

Metal". It was also somehow lost that the usage of Dead's pictures on "Dawn of the Black Hearts" was never done by the band itself, at least not officially, and the photographs were in fact stolen to make this cover. Aarseth also didn't actually eat the brains, and the scan of the interview linked there shows this. It should also be noted that, even though one of my source links leads to a Yahoo! Music page, all biographical info on that page is actually from the All Music Guide (AMG, which probably hightens the credibility in some people's eyes).

1867:(*) First of all, to the anonymous IP: it was totally unnecessary to copy/paste our conversation from my talk page to this discussion page. You could have raised the issues in another manner. Granted you did this out of bitterness to smear me, however, the result disfavored you, as the conversation shows that I tried to inform and reason with you; someone who instead replied with antagonizing statements and invalid points with no other intention but to argue. Please find an external forum on another site where such behavior is commonly regarded. 3068:

First he is asked "if in his opinion that the term "Black Metal" is bastardised these days" - his responce is that "many people are using the term Black metal WHO SHOULDNT be". he states "Like the NORWEGIANS. They are not black metal. They should call themselves "Corpse Paint Metal" or "Norwegian Metal" but not Black Metal, as Black Metal ~IS~ Venom. " He further elaborates and states " Black Metal is Venoms style of music. It includes ALL the Extreme metal styles like Death metal, Thrash metal, Speed Metal ect. Its an experiment in heaviness"

3933:

can't do that, it's a real genre! It exists! It doesn't matter that it has no sources!" I'm not kidding and guess who won? They did. The LLN may not have had as much notability but they are a big deal. They were more underground than Norway's scene. They also were not around as long. But mostly, the reason there aren't as many sources about the movement is because (besides being way, way underground) most of the bands in the movement released about 3 albums within a short time span then totally disappeared. They

1636:

thing, it just seems to me that it brings a level of discredit to the page to have that many "citation needed" things all over the page, and the thing is this is all true, not debateable. It just looks bad, and doesn't seem necessary for some of the stuff you tagged since a lot of it is so blatantly verifiable for anyone who just listens to a mere sample on Amazon, let alone a whole record. Citation claims should be reserved for controversial statements, or least so it seems. I know you mean well though.

481::Oriental metal, neoclassical metal and symphonic metal are all real genres not just stylistic descriptions. However pagan metal usually refers to metal bands who have a similar style to viking metal or folk metal (sometimes black metal) but cannot call themselves viking metal because they are not from scandinavia. So it's not really a real genre. Oriental metal is on the border as well, actually. Symphonic and neoclassical are definite well established genres, though. 4555:

second wave distinction and they didn't get their info from wikipedia or Ian Christe. Yes, some do say there is a third wave, but it is not well defined so there's not much written about it and so it stays out of this article. This supposed "third wave" is generally considered to consist of more symphonic black metal bands, but there is not much agreement on the issue. Some people would consider this "3rd wave" to just be almost all bm bands after the mid 90's or so.

4914:, which is true, but are there rules about this? Has some-one written a set of rules? Does this mean that we'll have to clean up the list of BM-acts who don't follow the rules by adding keyboards in their musical arrangments? If the majority feels like deleting "keyboards" from the article, I will no longer object to this, no problem. Still, I disagree, but I prefer to settle it in a democratic way (which sometimes is a strange phenomena at Knowledge, I know). 3513:" Apart from the token display of "due respect" this again reveals arrogance and prejudice in assessing the qualifications of other editors to make reasoned edits, and the attitude that these are rather encroaching on someone else's legitimate turf. The substance part about "bastardizing content" and "removing vital historical info" are assertions that have to be explained. What changes do these characterizations refer to? This is not self-evident. 5206: 31: 2649:, via the Norwegian press. Your citation tag, however, was accidentally reverted in the group of things and I hadn't noticed until now; I'll fix that, along with the Headbanger's Journey cite tag, which at first appeared absent because it only appeared at the end of the paragraph (when fixing, I'll post twice to avoid potential third-party speculation; and trust me, it's happened). So first off, sorry about that, it wasn't intentional. 4926:," then what's the problem? Seems pretty clear to me that if most black metal bands do not use keyboards, then keyboards are not typical of black metal and hence should not be included in the infobox as a typical instrument. Or are you suggesting that typical instruments should include just about any instruments performed by the prominent representatives of the genre? That's a pretty strange way of looking at typical, if you ask me. -- 3135:

facism here and that you help exhibit, is going to make myself and many others run in the opposite direction, which is your loss. And really this place could use some more intelligent people to contribute to articles, IF the collective of thumb twittlers, would stop banding together and blockade something just because they dont agree(Even if there is real time proof)or they dont want to be showed up. How disappointing!Byondthis

2451:

not, he was either inspired by punk and hard rock or the biggest Venom plagiarist ever. Thrash was never in the early equation. I think some bands just took some of the occult topics present in the NWOBHM to the extreme, and subsequent bands expanded on that. Were many later black metal bands inspired by thrash or coming out of thrash backgrounds? You bet. But saying black metal was born of thrash is iffy.

2536:

obviously is Rock and roll. Its modernized Rock and Rock, and never branched off to become "metal", as it lacks the defining characteristics musicaly. Cradle of Filth, is defined by some as black metal, and NOT black metal by others. So which fans are correct? or Which independent resources are correct? Well lets allows COF to define themselves "Were not black metal. Weve moved past that. We are Extreme metal".

3192: 2815:'s forty most important black metal albums from their black metal special and note the US vs Asian albums included), what we are actually looking for is evidence of popularity. I would guess something appropriate would be album chart placings in the various areas, total album sales figures or possibly appearances in mainstream music magazines in different countries. At present the information is 2515:

are an illusion. For example BLackmetal.com is independent resource right? Wrong. They own a record label and have vested interests, as do almost every resource site available on the BM. Even if its only a fan site, supporting their own bias. Most Independent sources are only parroting what they heard or were told by the artists anyway, and again supporting their own bias with cherry picking

1226:

from groups such as Enslaved, Satyricon and Dimmu Borgir suggest a much different sound than what they were 10 years ago. I personally feel, from my own observation, that black metal groups that are embracing more commercial or accessible sounds, or prog-oriented sounds (such as in Enslaved) or avant garde/ambient sounds (such as Blut Aus Nord) should be considered part of a third wave.

3079:

needed corspe paint to be "true' were rediculous. Several commented on the absurdity of thinking one had to use Lo Fi recording to be "true' and were actualy called "Traitors to the genre". Thus as the early scene, had everyone looking and sounding unique, they than continued to evolve and still sound unique, while fans have tried to freeze things in time and space to the early period.

653:

stated that there was no large organization as many of them didn't stay in the same city (Euro - Oslo, Varg - Bergen, Emperor - Notodden), it could be noted however that the term is used. I also think the NSBM section could be shortened to one sentence as there is already an article about it and the 'War metal' section could be added as a separate page or a page could be made for

4877:, to which I have to say, "What the hell does that have to do with anything?" Gothic metal isn't related to black metal in the slightest. I apologize if you were just making a passing reference with that comment, though, and not actually trying to compare the two genres (which should not be compared anyways). But other genres hardly matter. Keyboards are a common element in 5153:

which every band demonstrated every single characteristic of that genre? The sentence needs to be removed. The "usually" word from the first sentence is also redundant because it says "typically" right before it in the same sentence! The "typically" is the antecedent for both parts of that phrase. Obviously if something like that "typically" it's also like that "usually".

2076:, and they didn't form until 1983, and even then, that was one recognized band that had no influence on black metal as a single entity. The first wave of black metal already had its start building of thrash in the late 70s/early 80s, with Venom, Bathory, and so forth. If you would like facts, feel free to explore this very website... Thanks. 5027:

metal. And there are tonnes of black metal projects which operate on such tempos, take: Trist, Nortt, Vinterriket, Wyrd, Amesoeurs, Xasthur, Life is Pain, Ekstasis. The latter three having had a great portion of their tracks with no drums at all still clearly black metal with the last not having made any tracks with drums as of yet.

930:: I agree that the article should cover the origins of the second wave wore widely, but except for Bathory (which is already covered in the article), the Swedish black metal scene was very small in the late-80's / early-90's and the bigger Swedish bands only started after black metal was already "popular". Claiming bands such as 5122:

proclaiming to be BM, which are not bounded by these stereotypes (which is why I added the link above as illustration). People will still feel the urge to attach labels onto music, which by definition is subjective, while every musical group (either within the BM-genre or in avantgarde techno) will have it's own characterics.

5166:

NWOHBM, Speed Metal, and Thrash Metal, and each of these genres have speed as one of their main characteristics. It is certainly possible to deviate from an ancestral genre by eliminating a certain characteristic as speed, but there is no evidence to suggest that this is the general path within the black metal community.

1725:

majority of black metal embraces a sort of anti-religious and hateful ideology. Yet this does not belong in the introductory sentence. The purpose of the encyclopedia page on black metal is to explain to people who are not familiar with the subject what black metal is. Therefore, when people read it, they should know

3851::The LLN is a big deal and it shouldn't be deleted. It was a real movement. It doesn't matter if it has no sources. There are plenty of articles on wikipedia that don't have sources but cannot be deleted because people will say "it's real and existed" and it will be kept, even without sources. Also, the LLN 1810:

all seem intent on giving black metal a disservice by simply labelling it as angry music. if you cared about the genre, you wouldnt. and LOL at thinking burzum has no ideology, if you are the kind of person that thinks that then you don't know enough to edit this article (the problem with 80% of wikipedia)

5026:

All true except for the tempo? That's just a stereotype outsiders have of black metal. Whether something is black metal is pretty much irrelevant of the tempo. If you show even the fastest projects like Sethereal down to an eight of their original tempo it would still be clearly recognizable as black

4823:

The listing of instruments does clearly mention that they are used "often", not "always". I admit that keyboards are mostly used in symphonic-, industrial- or avantgarde-influenced BM, but nevertheless, they can be regarded as typical in some sub-genres of BM. Even more, the use of keyboards in BM is

4649:

Why can't we include keyboards as part of the black metal instrumentation section of the infobox? Keyboards aren't just for goth pseudo-black metal bands like CoF and lame Russian bands. Respectable BM bands that use keyboards include: Abigor, Arcturus, Blut Aus Nord, Borknagar, Burzum, Dimmu Borgir,

4117:

used as a derogatory term. But it also implies that a band basically plays blast beats throughout their music and have an emphasis on the raw bm sound. Grindcore may not be technically the extreme of death metal, but many consider it as such seeing as how they are highly influenced by dm but try to

4031:

a real genre and should be recognized. Just as grindcore is the extreme of death metal (pretty much), norsecore is the extreme of black metal. One of the defining elements in norsecore is the usage of blast beats (almost constantly) and usually (though not always) even shittier production and rawer

3976:

I apologise if you are not new to Knowledge... my mistake was based on your lack of contributions and your misunderstandings of Knowledge policy. Obviously, we can all recognise that the AfD policy is flawed, as although it shouldn't rely on a democratic vote, in reality that is broadly what happens.

3612:

might not be the best idea even with an "According to...". Alice Cooper's article does not mention black metal at all, and it is not like he is a notable critic of black metal whose views on the subject are often reported (and thus should be reported here too). Also, genres aren't capitalized and I'm

2775:

are about as well known as it gets. I mean, I know there's more USBM bands than that (I've listened to and studied the USBM scene) but most are not well known (or known at all) worldwide. However, i can point to many SA and Asian BM bands that are or were well known on the BM underground. Sorry but

2450:

In any case, the problem with this faulty blanket statement ("black metal came from thrash metal") is that it totally negates several bands, most notably Hellhammer and Bathory. What "thrash" was Tom Warrior listening to in 1982? How about Quorthon? Depending on whether to choose to believe him or

2045:

It's a great addition to the page and I think it's at the best place possible, without adding another boldface segment. A few of the other bm veterans here and I have been trying to keep things compact without disregarding informative details; I think you wrote that perfectly and it's probably at the

1463:

I'm a huge music and metal fan in general (not just black metal), and I feel black metal is still not getting its story told cohesively or with credit. That's why I all did all this and hopefully, upon inspection, you will all agree the page is much better now. Thanks. -- 15 February 2007 68.5.56.205

1132:

Beside the Finnish and Greek scenes, the German and Dutch ones should be considered to some extent, especially with bands like Funeral Winds, Bestial Summoning, Lacerated Gods, Martyrium (ie pre- Secrets of the Moon), ABSURD to be considered as all having some influence or mark on the scene. Bestial

718:

Exactly. He's consistently (well, consistently for Varg) claimed that the murder was in self-defence, however it's subject to endless dispute whether that meant Aarseth actually made an attempt on his life or that Varg simply felt threatened by him and decided to kill him first. The details are vague

120:

I added for the first time USBM into the Black Metal page entry, and had several people removing it and the bands I added, simply because of their opinion. Finaly the basic entry has stayed, yet people are now fighting over what bands are included. The USBM is a legitamate musical scene, that is more

5062:

I have read, and typical black metal is nowhere characterized by fast pace either. It says 'characterized', not 'is commonly', The most noteable bands synonymous with the genre such as Satyricon, Darkthrone, Thorns and Ulver have all created slow paced black metal at one point or another. And no one

4587:

genres. The only way these few bands differ from "traditonal" black metal is lyrically. Even then, "traditional" black metal bands hold many different ideologies. Both this article and their own articles agree that there is no method of playing black metal in a Christian/Nazi way. Therefore, I would

4273:

as black for "Extreme Metal or Heavy Metal subgenres". It is 100% allowed to do it. But some people (unlogged) just have a problem with it and delete it unreasonably as a POV making pure edit war, what is POV by itself. So I would collect some people that want black for "Extreme Metal or Heavy Metal

3044:

As to countries with Black metal, while that doesnt consitute a Genre it is a "Scene", and each Scene, has its own look, sound, influences, and end product, and deserves its own entry, if their is enough bands and fans to consitute a "Scene". So not every country or area would have its own BM Scene.

2973:

Will someone please tell FromByond to stop editing the black metal article and adding "combat metal" and American black metal as subgenres. Combat metal doesn't exist as far as I know and American black metal is not an actual subgenre. There are tons of countries with black metal and they all have

2473:

I have an idea. Lets allow Cronos to tell us what Venom is. In the 2007 documentary Black MEtal by Bill Zebub, he states Venom is Black Metal. And Black Metal is all the extreme metals put together. Its Death metal, Thrash Metal, Speed Metal ect. All the metals. Its an experiment in Heaviness" User:

2286:

I agree with most of your sentiments except for the fact that you limit the thrash metal scene to "largely" America. I think that is an insult to great bands like Sodom and Kreator. True most of the attention is focused on the American scene, but European thrash (and also South American if I may say

1733:

To someone who is a non-listener, the fact that black metal has an uncompromising ideology is rather useless as a description. Some of my favorite bands, like Shining and Abyssic Hate and Burzum don't even use vocals in many of their songs, so it would be difficult to recognize an ideology simply by

1635:

I have in fact put the First and Second wave portions through major revisions, now that you brought that aspect to my intention (so thanks). And by striking, I mean noticeable. Corpsepaint does in fact strike you as a black metal thing, nobody else does it. So that's what I meant. As far as the tags

1447:

I hope nobody here thinks I'm a jackass for doing this, but I put the page through dozens of edits (many of which could have been done at one time had I thought of them). HOWEVER, it should be realized that, despite the long list of edits on the history page, no information was lost or vandalized in

1083:

I wanted to emphasize the significnce of Dead's suicide to second wave of black metal as after the attention black metal got through it, death metal bands started to be more interested in BM. These bands include Thou Shalt Suffer (pre-Emperor), Black Death (pre-Darkthrone), Amputation (pre-Immortal)

891:

I think some reference to "extreme metal" is useful, however since that's a term created after the fact to describe black metal, death metal, grindcore, swedish chef metal etc etc etc (and not a real genre at all, just an umbrella term) I think at best one could say it's considered a form of extreme

642:

I agree and will try and rewrite the article in the next few weeks, there is also alot of repetition most notably "Venom (the original line up being Cronos, Mantas & Abbadon)." which occurs twice. Also the start of the "History" section and the "First Wave" scetion both add exactly the same info

104:

The lead is filled with fluff. There's no reason to include a (false) spiel about how black metal is supposedly anti-idealist, especially given that black metal is rooted in Romanticism, which is arguably a form of idealism itself. Also, perhaps someone should cite a source for the idea that black

4808:

I would not regard two negatives (atypical instruments = not keyboards) as a positive (typical instruments = keyboards). The infobox indicates typical not common. I have the impression that symphonic black metal bands are more prevalent and prominent than other bands in the genre but that would not

3731:

Quite simply, that page needs referencing to hell and back and back again then returning once more. From the looks of the content, much of the needed references will be in french. Currently, to be honest, the article has no sources whatsoever, and so would deservedly fail an AfD. It is this lack of

2652:

Additionally, under the NSBM section, it was important to keep a universal perspective regarding some of the generalization that befalls all black metal acts, besides just Burzum. The wording regarding Aarseth and Dead's brain was phrased the way it was because it wasn't Aarseth himself necessarily

2514:

IF artists aren't a good source for their bands genre, than EVERY referance, in this article, has no weight, as almost every referance, is sourced back to a documentary, with the muscians speaking for themselves about themselves as well as on the Death or Black Metal genre. Also Independent sources

1809:

what it sounds like: it has highly-distorted guitars, shrieking vocals, etc" - but what defines black metal apart from other forms of music that ALSO use distortion and screaming? punk rock and indie may well have ideologies, but black metals different values are easily identifiable and unique. you

1729:

what it sounds like: it has highly-distorted guitars, shrieking vocals, etc. That is what separates black metal from every other genre of music. No other genre of music can be classified in the way that it is described in the second sentence. Afterward, the ideology of black metal can be noted, and

1250:

I think you could include this in the Aesthetics section. Although you could rewrite the part about drum machines and ambient samples as not fit for live show as it has been done by for example Mysticum. Also you could add something about the stage show (many bands using flesh and blood to throw to

1225:

I'm not hugely familiar with modern black metal, but to me it seems like releases from bands starting in the late 90's and early 2000's differ greatly from early to mid 90's black metal. Bands such as Wykked Wytch (sp?) and others are being lumped into the black metal category, and recent releases

694:

Not sure where else to post this. I remember a friend telling me of a metal artist, who if I recall correctly was Burzum, which would seem right, as I remember him telling me of him being in prison (Though he said he synthesizes music from inside the prison now, and let me hear a clip of it. Much

257:

I worry that some of these bands shouldn't be mentioned at all; if a band bring in industrial elements, can they still be considered BM? There is a big rift in the BM bands that are emerging now- some are rigidly sticking to classic styles and some are being much more experimental. Fans have strong

115:

2. Genrebox - Pages need to be made for US Black Metal and Eastern Europe Black Metal, other than that seems ok. We might want to add something about Scandavian Black Metal as a regional scene? Or rather might move Viking to Regional, and retitle it Scandavian, though this leaves the beginings of

4955:

that misperception? Many people in the so-called "outside world" also think that heavy metal fans, goths and devil worshippers are all one and the same thing. Or that nu-metal and glam metal are somehow representative of heavy metal as a whole. Or that the Tower Bridge is London Bridge. Et cetera.

4909:

I don't have any intention to force my opinion onto the article. If the majority feels that keyboards are a-typical, then so be it. However, I would like to point out some misunderstandings. Indeed I mentioned that that keyboards are typical in some sub-genres and bands who are influenced by other

4137:

As a derogatory term, it really has no place in an encyclopedia. Similarly, we wouldn't create a page for 'mallcore' or 'faggoth'. Secondly, much grindcore has no metal influence whatsoever, although grindcore often does contain thrash or death metal elements. Thirdly, comments like 'anything else

3937:

to be underground as much as possible. They limited their copies to very small numbers. It was basically like they didn't want to be known. They were so knee deep in the super undergound type philosophy that they just wanted to quickly release a few great albums and then never be seen again. Or

3899:

be mentioned in the main Black Metal article is again POV, and you will need to find a reliable source to justify its notability. Finally, to say it is 'just as much a movement' as the Norwegian scene is simply to state that both existed. No arguments from me there. If you are claiming the LLN has

3828:

have been or can be found. A reliable source in this case would be a book or commercially published music magazine. If anyone can find such sources, please add them to the article. If they cannot be found, the article may well need to be deleted. Either way, if people could offer their opinions on

3580:

In retrospect I agree that that redlink isn't warranted. As for the other points you make, I am not so convinced that someone like Alice Cooper should not be quoted extensively when he basically divests the Norwegian BM scene wholesale of their integrity. That should be considered notable, however

3067:

This article is written from a Bias point of view almost exclusivly from a Norwegian standpoint. Anyone that doesnt agree, need only watch Bill Zebubs new documentary on black metal called "The Black Metal Documentary". This interesting interview with Cronos, will shock many of the Norwegian fans.

2923:

Now that's a good point you are making. Heavy metal is certainly known to be more popular in Europe in general and Germany does have a pretty strong BM scene but nothing like those other places. As for your worry that the popularity section may become worthless, I get what you're saying, but IDK

2571:

Yes, well allowing fans, who mostly are not even muscians to define the genre is an even worse idea. If we did that NOTHING would ever be solved or properly documented. For an exampe - 50% say Cradle of Filth is BM, and 50% say they are not. If we let Cradle speak for themselves they clearly state

1743:

Regarding the ideology section, you cut out some details that made the paragraph flow nicely. You may have kept the crux of the ideology, but the way it reads is very wordy and seems to be a bunch of "ism's" all stringed together. The ideology section is the most controversial section of the black

1372:

to the first wave section. There is also some inconsistency between the opening paragraph and the first wave section. The opening paragraph states that Venom only had an influence because they influenced Celtic Frost. The First Wave section makes it seem like Venom had a huge influence and doesn't

1319:

Most black metal bands don't play live? Nonsense. Impaled Nazarene, Dimmu Borgir, Emperor, Immortal, Marduk, Dark Funeral, Satyricon, 1349, Enslaved, Destroyer 666, Gorgoroth, Goatwhore, Dodheimsgard, Dissection, Borknagar, Carpathian Forest, Mutiilation, Mayhem, and Hell-Born all are or were live

857:

So are we going to delete "war metal" or make a minor movement group as suggested in the archives? I personally lean towards deletion of War Metal, it strikes me a poseur subgenre. Google gives Black War Metal 303, just plain War Metal is 128.000 but most do not seem relevant to the music scene.

419:

There's a lot of useless genres here. Pagan Metal is not a genre, is a stylistic description. Oriental Metal is similarly dumb, and doesn't exist. No one outside of Knowledge references 'Oriental Metal'. Also, Neoclassical Metal or Symphonic Metal are, like Pagan Metal, stylistic descriptions,

180:

I corrected some grammar here, but you're right, this needs major re-writing, especially since at the end it goes off on a tangent about the future of the genre! Maybe this should be moved; it needs some serious thought. Many fans have very strong feelings about what can be/can't be considered BM,

164:

As "black metal" refers to the occult in the first place, the lyrical content is as important as the musical content in defining something as "black metal." Thus, there is no such thing as "Christian black metal," as while they may musically style themselves as such, their lyrics are far and away

151:

I am not sure where you think it is saying can in any form, the direct quote from the page is is that of "Lyrics that take the form of pessimistic, Satanic, Pagan, or occult themes which blaspheme Christianity. And its not just christian black metal that exsists, Wolves in the Throne Room have no

5165:

on speed. Perhaps speed does not define nearly all or even most of their songs, but it is fair to say that without speed those bands would not be where they are, and they would likely be considered fringe black metal if black metal at all. Additionally, it is agreed that black metal stemmed from

5160:

may lay claim having black metal characteristics, but I would hardly classify him as a typical black metal artist; he is more fringe BM. All his songs are slow, and there is something missing from his music that enables it to be placed wholeheartedly in the BM category. (I love Nortt by the way).

5121:

Indeed, for one time I fully agree with you that it is hard to pinpoint the exact definition. Keyboards or not. How many bbp. WHether or not a double bassdrum is used. Shrieking vocals. Lyrical themes. Lofi production. Corpsepaint. If one thinks there are guidelines, there will be a lot of bands,

4775:

I believe the reason why Skyforger would write something like that is because they are a folk metal band and use authentic folk instruments instead of keyboards. I don't think that has anything to do with black metal. You say a lot of bands do use keyboards but you also say a lot of bands do not.

4318:

Uh, just out of curiosity, why the hell is the unblack metal article almost as long as the black metal article? It used to be a lot shorter. It just seems wierd that they would be even close to the same length. I think the people over on the unblack metal page have been going more in depth and

3932:

I'm not new to wikipedia. I'm glad the LLN page will be kept. I realize what I was saying was POV, but that doesn't make it false. I was only making a point. In the past some shitty genres have been put up for AFD because they had no sources but people wouldn't let the pages be deleted. "You

3134:

I have had issues learning how to work within the Wiki framework because of all the guidelines. But than I finaly start getting the hang of it, and i get discouraging posts like: "you are so just totally filled up by your own POV that it's frustrating." - Well good. We frustrate each other as the

3125:

You suggested I show proof of why I have my POV, I have repeatedly done so to substantiate the truth , and I still experiance Wikifacism at its finest. The differance between me and most of the editors on this page, is the editors on this page have a POV that is not well rounded, and is completly

2678:

I agree. South America, North America, and Asia all, have their own unique scenes that are very popular, though North Americas is by far the youngest, and least developed. But that is changing. Each has differant focus as well as visual presentation. Now while this doesnt consitute its own unique

2091:

Yet Venom and cronos clearly state that Venom is Black Metal, and Black Metal is ALL the extreme metals which include Death Metal, Thrash Metal, Speed Metal ect. So If according to him, Death Metal is one of the components used to create Black Metal, than he is saying that Death came first as did

1770:

I did not appreciate all the edit war you created, 86.149.59.252. If you are so serious about improving this page, please register a username and discuss all controversial topics in the Talk page first. You are welcome to help us make this entry great, but insisting upon undiscussed controversial

1455:

I also removed redundant information. A lot of stuff, like definitions on what corpse paint was, was repeated upwards three times. I defined it once, using much of what was already here, and put it where it belonged. Some stuff in the opening section was merged as well (why repeat things and draw

652:

Another thing of note is that there was no recording studio in Euronymous' basement, I think the writer is reffering to the 'Griegenhallen' (Greig Memorial Hall)? which is a general purpose studio, not limited to BM. Another thing would be the 'Inner Circle' reference as Varg and many others have

289:

Seriously, there's no section in Country Music about racist Country Music--it's a useless distinction regarding an infinitesimal minority of Black Metal Bands, and including it here both overstates its importance and needlessly smears the greater community, who have no interest in this silliness.

5185:

I would not agree with that every single major black metal list. It appears as if you have selectively compiled it to suit your point. The Trilogy of Ulver does not necessarily thrive on speed. And Satyricon's work never did. Not to mention the very early but extremely influential work of Thorns

5152:

This new sentence, "It is prone to experimentation and certain elements typical to black metal are not always used by every band within the subgenre" is pretty redundant. You can say that about ANY type of music. Have you ever heard of a type of music that was not prone to experimentation and in

4629:. At first this made me think even more that there should be something about war metal in this article at the very least, but then I saw there black metal article. Not a very well done article with some inaccuracies I could see right away. So we won't be making that war metal article, I guess. 3078:

Black Metal is about free will and individuality, not following what others are doing or trying to sound like a band from 20 years ago. Thus anyone trying to freeze a style and sound to BM goes against what ALL the creators and evolvers of the genre stand for. Each commented on how thinking one

1451:

I simplified the "History" section (renamed it) and split up all the information for an easier read. All the info from before is still there (and more, actually, like the Faust incident), but I made it an overall easier read for anyone who wants to learn about black metal's history for the first

681:

Downplaying the importance of the early Norwegian scene seems foolish, as this was the scene that basically defined the second wave of black metal and its varieties. The history of early black metal is a primarily Norwegian one, unless anyone wants to point out similarly influential groups from

125:

3. Characteristics - My main problem with Characteristics is the listing of "Lyrics that take the form of pessimistic, Satanic, Pagan, or occult themes which blaspheme Christianity. Bands such as Slayer, Venom, Deicide, and Immolation overlap lyrically with black metal somewhat but are musically

4603:

I'm not so sure. I agree that those genres don't really differ, other than lyrically. But they have their own names and have therefore become some sort of subgenre. To put them in "scenes" would most likely be a misnomer, and other topics would just seem weird to me for a number of reasons.

4554:

Look, I respect your opinion but there are plenty of sources supporting the first/second wave of bm arguement and it is accpeted by everyone I know in the black metal community. I know this is POV, but everyone I know who likes black metal (and I know quite a few of them) know of the first and

3033:

Yes I agree. Its taken me awile to get used to the thinking here, but im gradualy becoming aclamated to it. Learning how to work within the system! I see how Combat Black Metal is like War Black Metal and is debatable. A band can consider what they do something specific yet that doesnt define a

1396:

I've analysed some black metal recently and I think there should be a section on the tonality and harmony used in black metal, i.e. uses the Diminished scale, often rather than using diminished and minor chords it uses ambiguous parallel minor thirds to create a very dark and grim atmosphere. A

1055:

I deleted Dark Funeral and Abruptum as influences from Swedish scene as Abruptum isn't black metal at all and Dark Funeral wasn't found until 1993. Dissection hasn't really ever stated themselves as black metal but "metal of death", but I suppose it can stay there. I also added Finnish scene as

942:

as a major influence or originator is just a factual inaccuracy and blatant fanboyism, as these formed in 1993/1994. If you want to make the section to cover some important non-Norwegian bands too, please do so, but don't only add your favourite bands from your own country and make it look like

736:

This talk page is getting excessively long (133 kilobytes, the recommended maximum being 32). Would someone like to archive some of the old discussions? It's getting kind of a pain to read and edit, not to mention that some particularly old browsers (if they still exist) might have difficulties

4660:

bm, keyboards are not an instrument used. It's just not widely used enough in black metal. If you put that in there it's like saying, "almost all black metal bands with some exceptions use keyboards," which is not true. If it was for a genre like power metal, yeah. But not for black metal.

4536:

Ian Christe's book isn't enough. I read "Metal Hammer", "Rock Hard", "Kerrang!" and many other magazines, nobody has talked about those waves of black metal. Some critics labeled bands such as Celtic Frost and Bathory black metal, that's true, but IMHO the waves are only invented by few (for

3699:

I'm not sure that even within black metal circles LLN could ever be regarded as "important". There may be a large number of bands, although there is some controversy as to how many of them exist as anything more than a name. Either way, very little music was released, making most of the claims

2535:

Additionaly fans are typicaly not a good resource for determining what a genre is or isnt as everyone is bias. I would say the band playing the music has more ability to define what they do based on their influences. Who am I to tell ACDC they are not playing Rock n roll? And really, to me, it

2374:

unconventional song structures, which is one of the defining features of black metal. I mean, thrash metal and NWOBHM bands mostly have that intro-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus formula in almost every song, whereas that was not so much evident in Venom's songs. (Admittedly some songs

1459:

A picture of the stave church was also added for visual effect, as well as a picture depicting Dead and Euronymous to help demonstrate corpse paint. A link to an interview with Mayhem shortly after Dead's suicide has been added as well in one of the paragraphs under "Historical Events in Black

2880:

all underground. It seem to me people are agreeing with what I'm saying. Everyone knows BM is more popular in parts of Scandinavia and it looks as if people agree that the same is true of South America and, yes, parts of Asia. There should be no argument that BM is all underground in North

1724:

A couple of things I'd like to mention to you, 86.149.59.252 who started the edit war. You seem to think that the ideology of black metal is its most defining feature. This is highly debatable, and I do not think that most fans/scholars of black metal would agree with you. It is true that the

1883:

That aside, to everyone else: The edit history speaks for itself; the record shows this anonymous user demonstrates ignorance beyond negotiation. Unable to read and comprehend the responses users have given him (explaining why his silliness merits reversion), he jumps ahead without thinking,

1533:

Yes, the "First Wave" is basically "blackened thrash metal", as black metal builds off thrash itself! But the term "blackened thrash metal" was coined AFTER black metal, and became useful only after the "second wave" took the genre in a different direction, what with punk-like drums and even

1212:

I'm not sure there really is a third wave, but there are definately modern BM bands which are not second wave. Compare bands like Negura Bunget, Nokturnal Mortem or Arcturus with Transylvanian Hunger... Huge difference. I think something needs to be said about modern/"third wave" BM bands.

1056:

influence, namely Beherit and Impaled Nazarene. Ofcourse there could be a long list of the smaller bands which have later become famous and somewhat influental from these two countries (Sweden: The Black, Azhubham Haani etc., Finland: Archgoat, Unholy etc.), but it's getting rather trivial.

4477:

article has music clips and so do most of the metal subgenres. We should probabaly put at least a few different clips in to the article. One or two from the First Wave and one or two from the Second Wave. Then maybe one or two more modern bm bands. This will improve the article greatly.

3881:

Welcome to Knowledge. It looks as if the LLN page will be kept, but will need serious re-writing. In light of this, several of your comments are incorrect and unwelcome of an encyclopedia. Firstly to say that the LLN is/was a big deal is POV and hence unacceptable to Knowledge. You need an

2616:

You reverted basically everything I did so I'll just try to go through things one at at a time. First of all, why did you re-add this sentence: "Bård was interviewed for a black metal mini-documentary that accompanied the DVD release of Metal: A Headbanger's Journey."? I'm sure he's been

1087:

Also I wanted to ask if anybody here considers the Black War (the so-called "BM war" between Norway & Finland in the c. 92-93) worth of a mention? I could write about the incident. After all it had a effect on Finnish black metal scene (espescially Impaled Nazarene & Beherit).

993:

from Sweden). Sweden was also a prominent inspiration in the second wave of black metal. Regarding Bathory, that band was one of the big influences during the first wave. I think we could cover more band's that wore important during theese years than just Norwegian and Swedish, like

5042:

You might learn a lot from the above conversations. The article is meant to talk about what is typical of the subject (black metal in this case). I realize their are many black metals out of the norm as many are prone to experimentation, but this article is talking about what is

4604:

They're probably best off where they are now (in the subgenres section). But I do agree they don't differ except lyrically. There may be some small differences, though. I wouldn't know enough about this as I have never listened to any NSBM and only very little unblack metal.

1429:

and I thought I'd mention it in case you guys wanted to add it to the list or something. I wrote an article for Payasage d'Hiver and I might do one for Darkspace as well. I am not an expert on the Ambient side of Black Metal but if anybody wants to help me then by all means.

1232:

there are some who belive that any band past 1995 is the third wave. but since many bands choose to sound raw like second wave black metal its har to say... maybe bands like dimmu borgir could be considerd third wave. but genre conflictions could prove otherwise...(malacath)

175:

4. History - What is in our history section after the third paragraph goes on a tangent about Norweigan NSBM (one that is repeated on about four pages), Additioanlly, the entire section seems to lack sources (or they are at least not cited), and to me needs to be rewritten.

3553:

I don't endorse the tone of Logical Defense's edit summaries in this case, or the reference reverts, but I do agree with the removal of some of the content you added. A whole paragraph dedicated to what Alice Cooper said in a documentary seems a bit silly and is not really

798:

What the hell is War Metal? And why is it included on the Black Metal page? If it would be included any black metal subgenre it would be NSBM or Viking Metal. War metal it's just a stupid tag that some stupid fuck invented in order to earn some status. It's just stupid.

4893:

as well (I might be stretching it a bit with those last two genres, I admit). It means nothing in this issue, though. Most black metal is supposed to be raw, etc. and most bm bands shun the use of keyboards. Not all, I know, but it's still not a typical instrument.

2446:

It's somewhat ridiculous to try and draw up some kind of organized chronological history of metal sub-genres, as there wasn't a straight line of evolution across the board, and in the early '80s everything was a giant melting pot of bands in embryonic stages anyway.

2974:

their own style, should we add every single country's style as a subgenre? I mean war metal doesn't even have a section on this article (war metal actually redirects to black metal) and it is arguably a real subgenre...more so than the two FromByond wants to add.

2667:

In the genrebox it states that the mainstream popularity "varies in Scandanavia," which is correct but I have also added South America to that statement as Black Metal is actually extremely popular on the underground in countries like Brazil. Hope everyone agrees.

1537:

I agree with the Venom statement, the individual who wrote that must be comparing them to Norwegian styles, so it does seem confusing. But they did in fact coin the term "black metal", and introduced the heavy emphasis on anti-Right Hand Path sentiment in music.

1109:

Well, I added the Dark War into the history section. You can check pretty much the same shit from Finnish 'zine Isten #8 (I can also send scans). And although the "conflict" can sound hilariously funny now, it was far more serious back then when people were being

2500:

Artists aren't always a good source for their band's genres, though. Lemmy, AC/DC and Guns N' Roses (to name just a few) all call their music rock and roll, when it obviously isn't... It's better to use an independent source than just what the artist says it is.

1416:

It's needed references about Mercyful Fate on the article, even if some radicals don't see the band as a influence for the entire style, but think about the tributes to Mercryful Fate/King Diamond and the presence of bands like Emperor, Dark Funeral and others.

1909:

Without drawing theories about why he behaves like this, I will simply conclude he is beyond reasoning with at this point. Therefore, all users should avoid giving him the confrontation he enjoys and simply report to an administrator upon further disruption.

3241:

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on

2433:

Just because a band came out before its genre doesn't mean it still can't be classified as its genre. Case in point - Black Sabbath. They are doom metal, but doom metal didn't really emerge as a viable genre until 1986, 16 years after Sabbath's first album.

3477:" Apart from the attitude inherent in this comment itself which in my opinion suggests that this editor has a marginal capacity to function on a collaborative, consensus-driven project like Knowledge, several changes also attest to bad or lacking judgment: 2375:

followed that formula, but not many). How many truly black metal bands can you think of that employ that standard (and boring) formula? Practically none. Combine that revolutionary method with some dark lyrics, and yes, you have the first black metal band.

3656:

I'm satisfied that several editors who appear balanced and reasoned share in their assessment of the redacting-centered issue at hand. I would still make for a dissenting opinion, but I fully respect what appears to be a differing majority consensus.

447:

Yo, I got redirected here when I clicked on a link for 'troll metal'. I can't see why Troll Metal is more similar to Black Metal than it is Folk Metal or even Heavy Metal - Finntroll, Korpiklaani, TrollfesT - they don't sound very black metal to me.

1133:

Summoning, while despised by the Swedish and Norwegian scenes still made a valuable contribution that was imitated to some extent by some in the scene at the time, and their name is still quoted a lot today by many chaotic BM bands and projects.

1320:

acts, and most of these bands actively tour or did at some point. Also, that thing about bands throwing flesh and blood at concert-goers isn't very common as far as I know. I know Mayhem did it and, though not black metal, Deicide used to do it.

591:

It is misleading to have the section labeled History start off with the Norweigian DRA.MA. I would suggest to either start off the history section with Venom, Bathory, ect or to rename the History to Early Norweigan Scene or something similar.

4699:

article. Although it is true that a lot of BM bands do not use keyboards, a lot of them actually use this instrument, mostly for atmospheric reasons. I am aware that the use of keyboards is often frowned upon by some fans and acts (for example

4343:

page name drops like crazy! It basically talks about every record company in existence that released a unblack metal album and it talks about every single unblack metal band ever and all their releases. Something needs to be done about this.

4676:

I don't massively care either way, but the previous edit said 'often use keyboards' (which is true) rather than 'majority use keyboards' (which is untrue, but would be unverifiable in reality anyway). Many of the biggest names in black metal

4650:

Emperor, Illnath, Ishtar, Limbonic Art, Obsidian Gate, Opera IX, Samael, Satyricon, Windir, Xasthur....just to name a few. I know some of those bands are crossover, but if you can't consider most of those as BM, then I don't know what BM is.

1529:

No, there is not enough evidence to claim there is a "third wave" per say, despite the fact that the genre still remains somewhat alive today. Saying there is a "Third wave" is pretty a profound statement and we have yet to see that happen.

1571:

What is your problem against tagging facts? This article does need references. Tagging where it does need so is helpful. Instead of removing them, consider providing actual citations for these statements. Those aren't of "the is blue" type.

3333:

does not argue the actual changes which these edits constitute, merely that they "bastardized content and removed vital historical info." I'd like to have these assertions expounded. But first I shall list the changes inherent in my edits:

141:

display" (emph. mine) before the listing itself. That, and "Unblack" has no real importance/influence in Black Metal. It could perhaps be changed to say that there's also something as Christian Black Metal, and then a link to that page...

3451:, 'cause each band is trying to be more wicked and evil than the other band And you know these guys when you meet them and their mother 'Hello mr. Cooper. Nice to meet you. My mother is right over there. Could she have your autograph?' ( 2875:

I realize the original research part. I was just saying that. It's interesting to note, though, that what we are talking about is ironic. What exactly constitutes popular? Sales? Media coverage? I will say this for sure: the NABM

2754:

belong as does south american and of course scandinavia. But north america? The fact that you say their scene is important is not only POV and debateable, but just wrong. Yes, they have an established scene and much USBM does have a

1491:

Characteristics is full of vague and sometimes confusing or contradictory terms ("Relatively thin or thick guitar tone", "an uneasy atmosphere", ""evil" sound", "Fast, repetitive, aggressive drums" and then "the drums can take a slower

1162:

Just a quick note; something I noticed, but didn't Dead's suicide note read "Sorry for all the blood" and not "Excuse all the blood"? Or is this just due to different translation (as I'm not sure if it was written in English or not).

3613:

pretty sure Cooper says "...like Satans...", not "...like Satanists..." in the short interview. That's just not an encyclopedic comment, in my opinion. Besides, neutrality comes into play as Cooper is a devout Christian and stated in

1541:

And lastly, I myself am "casually interested", and am in no way trying to make things complicated. In fact, I've been the one grouping and simplifying things on this page for the sake of the uneducated for weeks now! -- 68.4.207.20

643:

about Venom. I also think it would be better to leave out the large section about the Euronymous/Varg episode as I'm pretty sure there will be info about it on either the Mayhem, Burzum, Euronymous or Varg (or all four) pages already.

3074:

Further more, during the entire documentary which includes interviews with not only Enslaved, Venom, Gloomy Grim, Gorgoroth and others, everyone agrees on several core points, that MOST Black Metal fans have completly lost sight of.

4437:"Raw" black metal is just a description. I hear many bm fans call bands "atmospheric" black metal, "depressive" black metal and so on. It's not an actual genre, though. Just a description. Raw black metal would be something like 152:

lyrical base in pessesism, but are black metal. There mere fact that you can have these lyrics without it being black metal, makes me question the revelance of this, as you can say the same thing about other forms of extreme metal.

3886:

to attest this, such as a book or commercially published magazine. To say it doesn't matter if it had no sources is simply on the basis that 'people will say it existed' is simply moronic; two of the major pillars of Knowledge are

3274:

I just noticed that the section on church burnings starts about church burnings, then halfway moves straight onto euronymous' murder, which makes no sense at all. Could someone sort this out, because i dont know that much about it

4422:. Come up some something better if you want to claim legitimacy as a 'real' subgenre. I think you will struggle though... simply attaching the adjective raw to a description of the band doesn't imply a legitimate genre or scene. 1655:? i've already added them to the first wave section (now deleted), as they played BM in the late 80s (and later, even without knowing about the Norwegian scene). Several bands (from early second wave) stated them as influence. 1525:

lol, as far as your last comment... yes! Well, okay, I'm kidding, it's not entirely about looks, but yes, looks must be emphasized, as in black metal image perhaps exceeds music (let's be honest here) than any other subgenre.

2924:

what to say. You may be right. I wouldn't worry too much about it. I never found the popularity section that meaningful in the first place. It's just very general and meant to be. It's too hard to get specific with it.

2369:

I think I can agree with you on that. Venom is pretty hard to classify, in my opinion. They exhibit characteristics of thrash, NWOBHM/heavy metal and black metal. However I think their greatest contribution was their use of

1241:

Unless anyone objects, I am going to add a brief section about performance, saying how most black metal bands do not play live. It's rather critical to black metal, which I don't think you'd get from reading the article. --

868:

At the very least, it would seem from it would be better to place this with Thrash or Death metal, most of the bands listed as influance are death/thrash and in the section description it is listed as a Death/Thrash fusion.

2617:

interviewed many times over the years so why is this worth noting? How does it enhance the reader's understanding understanding of black metal at all, let alone enough to justify writing it in this article rather than in

1710:

would like some third opinions on the current version of the article made by me, and also some criticism from LD. what needs to stay in the idealogy section (give me quotes followed by the reason) that i have removed, and

1678:

Hi all, I noticed a couple of redirects to www.metalreview.com in the main text. I have removed this, as this is blatant advertising. Instead, since it seems to be a genuine metal site, I have moved it to external links.

4918:

07:14, 17 April 2008 (UTC) PS: I indeed mentioned goth metal as passing reference, not in direct relation to BM. I could also mention symphonic metal or anything else, but it was just an example that first came to mind.

3324:

It is good that editors are compassionate about the quality of articles about subjects close to their heart, or topics they in other ways are passionate about, as long as this doesn't begin to manifest as sentiments of

2991:

I think he understands now from our discussions on his page (I know you wrote this before then anyway), so it shouldn't be an issue anymore. I explained in depth what was wrong with those additions on his page already.

5169:

Therefore, I am suggesting we remove any references that suggest that high-tempos in BM are not the standard, though make mention that songs are not exclusively performed at high tempo. Well-argued responses welcomed.

126:

defined as death metal (Deicide, Immolation) or thrash metal (Slayer, Venom), however, Venom coined the term "Black Metal" and laid the foundations for later Black Metal alongsides Bathory and Celtic Frost." As there

1730:

it is, in the third introductory paragraph. Other genres of music have "uncompromising" ideologies, like punk rock and indie, so it is the description of the actual music that is most significant to the non-listener.

2032:

Looks good Zouavman. Do you have the initial article by any chance? I wanted to see if you left anything out when you merged it. I also miss the band listing :....( Would have been cool to have as a link to another

1558:, as well as unsourced. I did some cleaning up and tagged issues that would require sourcing. And for my last statement I was half-joking. BTW consider registering an account - it makes communication a bit easier. 105:

metal bands consider racism "a form of philanthropy" (??). No one is ever going to agree about what black metal is and is not, so perhaps it's just best to avoid any generalist statement about ideology whatsoever.

4910:

musical genres (industrial, avantgarde, etc), but still they are considered as branches of the BM-tree. But some of the major regular BM-acts actually use keyboards, as some have pointed out already. You say that

4418:, owing to being user-edited. It has been pointed out that the editors keep a tight control over genre changes, but that simply makes that aspect of the site a self-published source, and hence not reliable as per 3527:

I'm sure it can be argued that Cooper is silly and that Dunn's characterization if way off the mark. That is irrelevant. We are not here to argue views presented in our articles but present notable opinions from

3732:

strong references which has resulted in the poor style of many of the statements within the article. Many of the links provided fail to add value aside from directing the reader to forums on the subject matter.

2904:

Also, limiting European popularity to 'parts of Scandinavia' seems a little strange. What about, say, Germany? I have a worry that the popularity section may devolve into a list that is effectively meaningless.

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I know what your problem is...you can't read. I never said Burzum had no ideology, ever, anywhere. I said it is difficult to recognize Burzum's ideology simply by listening to one of his albums. That's not even

2954:. Lots of people are listing this site as a source for various articles, but time and time again it gives invalid information. Please weigh in to make sure wikipedia does not get filled with false information. 1836:

And you want to know why the fact that black metal's ideology is useless for a description? It's because it doesn't describe how the music sounds. Ideology is not music. I didn't say they didn't want to know.

1119:

There also could be some mention about the murder commited by Bard in the history section and in general the article should handle also Finnish and Greek scenes as they were the two big scenes with Norwegian

1084:

and partly Old Funeral (Varg Vikernes used to play in the band before Burzum). Ofcourse some of the bands changed their name already before the suicide, but their style suddenly turned into more BM after it.

2412:- and rightly so." Wait... Venom isnt black metal, either. Because Venom came around before thrash, and black metal came from thrash metal. So how can Venom be part of a genre that didnt exist at that time? 3716:

Incidentally, does anyone have any ideas how we could actually improve that page. At the moment it's terrible. But given the near impossibility of finding reliable sources, it's getting close to AfD level.

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I actually didn't check your second diff well enough and missed the context of the wikilink. The feature might meet our notability guidelines. Considering the documentary's inaccuracies, like claiming that

3082:

Also fans completly misinterpret the idiology of Satanism, but this is a differant discussion completly. Suffice it to say, true Satanism has nothing to do with Anton Le Vey, Black Magic or Devil Worship.

3006:

Yeah, that last comment of mine was old. I already talked to him about it a while ago and he seems to be on the right path. Good luck with proving "combat metal" is a subgenre of black metal, though.

366:). Strangely enough, I cannot find the article or section that was up for deletion. Would someone like to create this section? Or at least tell me why it shouldn't be (re?)created, if that's the case. 1034:

etc. This shouldn't be hard to do as the section is still pretty short. I still think the article should keep the usual consensus of Norway as the most notable scene, as otherwise it might fall under

1661:) that Mayhem chose Attila for 'De Mysteriis..' _becouse_ Tormentor was one of Dead's favourite bands. I think this kind of fact has much more to do with black metal (the music) then bone fragments. 883:"Black metal is a sub-genre of extreme metal" Extreme metal? I never heard of this as being a real genre. BM is a kind of extreme metal but I don't think extreme metal by itself is a genre. And the 3511:

With all do respect, we've been guarding this page for months before you stumbled upon it. If anything, your so called "good faith" edits have bastardized content and removed vital historical info.

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Let me guess, you're Norwegian, right? If not, you obviously haven't been reading your zines lately. But no, none of the above mentioned bands need a mention as they haven't had any big influence.

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be more "extreme" sounding (i.e. blast beats, cookie monster vocals that are usually super fucked up, repetitive simplistic playing at high speeds, etc). Just for the record I'm not a fan of any

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Then we need a source to back that up. I added a 'citation needed' tag but it appears to have been removed. I've listened to and 'studied' (I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this) constitutes

1929:

What the hell is pendulum strumming? No other article mentions it. And the part about characteristics is in more than one way hard to digest for people without Ph.d.'s in music science..! Please!

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Same thing with Bethlehem. On the other hand, every single major black metal band (Immortal, Burzum, Mayhem, Darkthrone, Celtic Frost, Venom, Bathory, 1349, Dimmu Borgir, Gorgoroth, Samael), all

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for Norsecore (which I confess I have only ever heard used in a pejorative sense) and include it. I'd start with books and commercially published magazines though, rather than a Google search...

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While we are discussing the possible deletion of some minor subgenres, there is one that seems to me to be sadly ignored, pagan metal. There are a number of relatively well known bands such as

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I am aware of that. However, some bands, f.e. Moonblood, are by far more essental than, some of the mentioned bands, like Blut Aus Nord, Arkhon Infaustus, Anorexia Nervosa, Antaeus or Ofermod.

1975:

What do you need an explanation of? Whether or not it's "brutal" is not something an encyclopedia needs to discuss, and maybe you should actually listen to the music to find out for yourself.

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Your own words therefore indicate that keyboards are not a typical instrument of the genre even if it is commonly used among some of the more prominent bands. That's what the infobox is for:

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which didn't make a lot of sense in the first place. Black ambient is a type of ambient music (dark ambient to be specific) and is definitely not a sub genre of black metal or metal at all.

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Alrighty, while I intend to do some of these, I think it would do us good to get a list going of what We think needs to be done to get Black Metal into 1.0 standards (it is as of today a B-)

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I have changed 'usually characterised by the use of fast tempos' to 'usually makes use of fast tempos', as the first phrase is a bit strange. Something is characterised by something or not.

4836:. You can delete it from the article, but you cannot ignore this fact. In general they can be considered typical for BM (and goth metal for that matter), compared to other metallic genres. 2631:

After looking at this closer, I think you really just need to go through this more carefully and decide which of my edits you actually have a problem with. You're reverting like 10 things

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I'd like to see some comments on the specifics of this post as well as the general issue of how this article is edited in a collaborative way and not by a select clique of über-editors. __

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I agree, there's been lots of talk about French band recently, I'd like to see some more development on the paragraph about these "third wave" bands and the similiarities and differences.

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use keyboards... Emperor, Dimmu Borgir, Burzum, Satyricon etc. It doesn't seem such a big deal to include that in the instruments section. But if you feel strongly about it, fair enough.

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They're seperate sections. We tried to put them in as close to chronological order as possible. And it doesn't even unfold as abruptly as you're saying so again, what's the confusion (.)

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is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Knowledge policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

1996:

is certainly not death! And their scene mates Grotesque??? Altought they are best known as a leaders of the Sweden's black metal scene along with godfathers Bathory in the end of 1980.

908:"Standard tuned guitars (In contrast to death metal which is typically dropped D and down-tuned.)" In Death it's not common to play in dropped D. Downtuning is common, 'dropped D' isn't. 4768:, to name but a few, are using keyboards. Of course, one can debate the "blackness" of some of these acts, but it is a mere fact that keyboards are frequently incorporated in BM-music. 2759:

sound all its own (though its arguable whther or not that sound is good; too much ambience and copycats and unoriginality, etc.) but that doesn't make them important. Tell me a single

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how can "Some black metal songs" be a characteristic? I expect here something that would generally describe black metal not list all kinds of possibilities. Similar "Certain bands... "

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Fair enough, but one must concede that the live experience is not central to black metal. Black metal is an recording-oriented genre, not a performance-oriented or media-oriented one.

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I agree that a lot of emphasis is made on the Norwegian history, and that's not all there is to it. This seems like a decent proposal to me, there's a lot about history in the intro.

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I cleaned up this whole section (First Wave), but it could use a total rewrite by someone intricately familiar with the history of black metal. I just cleaned up the language a bit.

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came during the same time between 1992-1993. I'm not trying to put down the fact that Norway was a big influence during theese years, but they are not the single one (just like with

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There are (as of March 12, 2008) 443 bands in Encyclopaedia Metallum described as some sort of "raw black metal". Why isn't that subgenre of raw black metal mentioned in this page?

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America, though. Besides, pseudo "bm" bands like COF and Dimmu Borgir (both of which are not really bm) almost no one even knows about BM. However, in those other places, people

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The line between the genres of black-, death-, thrash/speed-metal were (and still is as fare as I consider) rather blurry during this time (late 80's/early 90's). Best regards -

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black metal. It just seems to be the whole question about what is typical and common of black metal. It's prone to experimentation, though. So it's hard to pinpoint sometimes.

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implicitally (and proudly) writes in some album sleeves that no keyboards have been used), but a fact is that the some of the most well-known BM-acts frequently use keyboards.

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Bands part of a genre in its infancy are often labeled differently in retrospect. Metallica where regarded as power metal in the beginning. Nowadays a lot of bands are seen as

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If the "outside world" only know the "major players" and erroneously think that keyboards are typical instruments because of that, should not this encyclopedia do its duty to

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Don't be confused. It says that most bands indeed shun keyboards, but it is also a fact that a lot of the major players (which is not equal to "most") in this league actually

2724:

I agree with you about the inclusion of Asia, but have added North America. Regardless of your POV, the scene is important, both historically and particularly at present.

2463:. Metalcore was referred to as post-hardcore by many in the late 90ies. Venom is black metal (amongst other genres like NWOBHM) in retrospect (they even coined the term). 1476:

Haha, thanks for the compliments. Your initial skepticism is understandable. I imagine this page gets defiled a lot by uneducated youths. -- 15 February 2007 68.5.56.205

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I believe he also apologized for firing the shotgun in the house, said goodbyes, etc, but I'm certain that he said, somewhere in the note, "please excuse all the blood".

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Looking at it more closely, I think we can delete the history and subforms, rename First/Second wave Black Metal to History, and it would clean it up really well, imo. --

5077:

You're actually right. I didn't really read the sentence. My bad. It would be more accurate to say "usually" before "charcterized" or to say something to that effect.

1513:"One of the most striking features in black metal is the use of facial corpsepaint" is confusing and vague: So it really isn't about music afterall but all about looks? 4944:

use them. To the outside world (who may solely know Dimmu Borgir, Emperor, Mayhem, Marduk, Immortal, etc) therefore keyboards can be regarded as typical instruments.

3558:. I also don't think this documentary (Sam Dunn) should be used as a source for controversial assertions not verified by other (more reliable) sources. A wikilink to 2811:. Whilst my initial response was to defend the notability of US black metal bands as opposed to, say, Asian black metal (easy to do... an example would be to look at 5156:

Furthermore, I wish to claim that black metal IS typically characterized by fast-tempos. I have not heard of any black metal bands that use exclusively slow tempos.

4855:. And just because it is more typical to be in bm genre than other genres means nothing. It still does not mean it is typical of the bm genre. You also say that, 4517:

well known to fans of bm. There's plenty of sources including Ian Christe's book (which is used all over wikipedia as a source for absolutely everything metal; see

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writing a lot more stuff. Perhaps the black metal page should go more in depth and add some info in the spirit of competition? Also, the fact that there should be

3532:. A feature length documentary on Heavy Metal which is widely referred to in Knowledge's articles on this subject area cannot be dismissed at any one editor's whim. 1456:

them out?). I also fixed some grammar issues, such as "LaVey-satanism", which is actually written as "LeVayen Satanism" (I'm sure the originaly scribe meant well).

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might be considerd atmospheric black metal. Just an adjective, not a genre. Some fans are idiots. I've seen plenty of stupid crap on MA. People call bands like

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but only complaining about one of them; some of those edits you've restored and some you haven't. Maybe you're still in the process of fixing things, I don't know.

1818:"To someone who is a non-listener, the fact that black metal has an uncompromising ideology is rather useless as a description" - why? wouldn't they want to know? 2697:

Agreed. I just added Asia, because in certain parts (such as Singapore) black metal can get pretty popular. As far as the USBM scene goes...most of it sucks. My

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There should be a short section on face painting (from kiss to mayhem and then it many bands gave it up etc.) and on clothing (black clothes, bullets, pikes etc.)

2072:

What debate? Death metal didn't become a formidable genre until - at the very earliest - 1984/1985. The first band you could consider actual true death metal was

2645:

The mention of speculation regarding whether or not Varg took the picture alludes to the conspiracy that surrounded that very question at the time of release of

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The work is good. At first I was about to flip out when I saw all those edits but they were all well-done and verifiable. They make a good addition to the page.

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My bad, I meant "releases" not "albums". I agree that there needs to be a lot of improving, though. We'll see what happens. I don't plan on getting on much.

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Be weary, naming too many bands can lead to edit wars. People will delete or add band names just because they feel like it. I saw this happen on several pages.

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colour for infobox. It isn't very important, but I think most of people would agree, that it looks much more apposite. Why? Heavy Metal includes bands such as

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genre (as others have helped me see), it still deserves recognition, in that these geographic areas, have their own influences, sound, look, and development.

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I have put a paragraph concerning "black ambient" in the "modern black metal" section. If I have not put it in the right place, feel free to move it. ^^

195:

There are many more important bands that should be mentioned, such as: ildjarn, havohej, mütiilation, vlad tepes, vatain, nargaroth, behexen, 1349, etc.

3219:, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with 2012: 349:

that fit into this category, but no section! Pagan metal presently redirects to Black Metal. There are about 20 articles that link to pagan metal (

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I think it is counterproductive to turn characteristics into a section of prose. I like it better in list form, and it is easier to read that way.

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If you want to add it, go ahead, just make sure you provide specifics and can back it up with a song. Maybe "Funeral Fog" would be a good one?

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that's gay' is unhelpful and puerile, even on a talk page. Regardless, this is not the place to discuss your personal tastes in muisc or push

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concerning LLN unverifiable. It might be worth mentioning it in a sentence but beyond that they don't meet Knowledge notability requirements.

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is a bad idea, because if we ever have an article titled like that it is likely to be an essay or a POV fork and end up deleted very quickly.

1501:"...This wave included the British band Venom..." contradicts with "Venom cannot be credited as a true black metal band" a few paragraphs down 3150: 3172: 1258: 214: 3744:

may be of some use in polishing the article up and referencing statements. Ideally we need a major music magazine's coverage to be found.

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I agree the section is too Norway-centric and should cover influential bands from other countries, like the ones you mentioned along with

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My friend, you are so just totally filled up by your own POV that it's frustrating. Stop making edits based on your own interpretations.

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Please look up the word 'striking'. Corpsepaint being striking does not mean that it is important, it means that it is highly noticeable.

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genre, unless their are many differant musicians from a wide geographic sampling, partisipating in forming it, into a legitamate genre.

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The use of the phrases 'some songs' and 'some bands' is important to distinguish that a certain characteristic is not all-encompassing.

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I removed the ridiculous claim that a "SIZABLE portion of black metal bands employ drum machines," changing it to the neutral "some."

607: 5021:, high-pitched electric guitars often played with tremolo picking, high-pitched shrieking vocals, and unconventional song structures. 4414:

Because it is far from obvious that it is a legitimate musical subgenre. Metal Archives, despite people claiming otherwise, is not a

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Somehow, at some point, with the temporary absense of the most rational contributors of this article... this page got totally raped.

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be mentioned in the black metal aticle. It was a movement just as much as the early Norwegian scene had it's "black metal mafia."

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So according to the founder of the term "Black Metal", the Norwegian bands are not Black metal nor should they even use the term.

2203:! I mean, these guys had HUGE egos... they would never diss themselves. (Just for the record: back in the day they did tours with 1452:

time. Before, it was mashed together and who was who became impossible to tell for anyone who doesn't know their stuff already.

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Footnotes are converted to the cumbersome format of duplicating identical footnotes instead of applying the <ref name="": -->

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I've been involved with the black metal scene for well over a decade, and I have heard of exactly ONE of those bands (1349). --

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The First and Second wave of black metal are only an original research described by few references. They should be deleted. --

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which I will not argue, but you are talking about sub-genres and not the main genre, which is what this article is about.

4237: 4190: 2422: 1962: 3455:). And I say, 'I thought you guys were like Satanists or something?' You know, it's like 'well.. yeah.. we are, but..' ( 2017: 4269:. These bands are musically pretty really very different, so these subgenres should have another colour. I added it to 4378:

page has too much redundant information and requires a clean-up, I suggest to feel free to leave your comments on the

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Knowledge is not about a competition which article should be the longest, but an encyclopedia. If you think that the

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This branch, by many considered a unique genre within the scape of heavy metal, is often called Norwegian Black Metal

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Most bands that don't play live only do so because there is only one member writing the music so it usually ends up

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equivalent notability, then you are demonstrably wrong, as a lack of sources or even record releases will attest.

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interview that "I have totally preached against the whole satanic movement. Not preached but warned against it."

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for a google search. Now not all of those pages are right, but I'm sure once could find sources for norsecore.

3329:. Blanket reverts of some contributions I have made over the past few days appear to me not to be reasonable as 577:

That's fine as long as it's encyclopedic and verifiable. Whatever was put up yesterday on this subject was not.

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is much more common and is used elsewhere in the article, so please be consistent and use the latter spelling.

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suggest they be regarded as black metal "scenes", or put in the "other topics" section instead. Opinions? ...

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bm band from NA. I mean, I'm not saying popular, just well known on the bm underground. There aren't any.

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quite typical when you consider that this instrument is indeed mostly absent in other metal genres, such as

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underground. At least in Scandinavia and certain areas or South American and Asia is can get more popular.

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Characteristics has lots of musicological terms which in itself isn't a bad thing but makes it hard to read

4729: 3789: 3733: 3442:, stating, "I love going to Norway and Denmark, because I love picking up the Black Metal magazines. It's 1821:

also nice to see the page locked. go listen to cradle of filth you complete tits, you're all untermensch

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Sweden was a key scene together with Norway. Most sources agree the second wave originated from Norway.

427: 3895:. Maintaining the article as a stub may be the only way forward unless sources are found. That the LLN 3673: 1321: 696: 599: 364: 166: 5123: 5096: 4945: 4915: 4837: 4769: 4383: 3488:

Accentuated "main page" in the first sub-section of the "Historical events in black metal" sections ("

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Right now the word "shrieking" needs to be fixed in the second sentence. Request permission to change.

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genres or anything else that's gay that masquerades as anything even closely associated with metal.

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The paragraph presenting Alice Cooper's critical comments about Norwegian black metallers is removed.

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is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under

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as a whole. Do you see where I'm coming from? Also, you mentioned that keyboards are typical for

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I don't think that the exact text matters, the gist of it is that he apologized for all the blood.

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1. Lead - Seems mostly ok, a bit ambigious already got a better wording for the parts I find so.

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This branch, by many considered a unique genre within the scape of heavy metal, is often called

822:

Woah I can't believe "war metal" is still there... There were lots of discussions about it (see

522:

I redirected Pagan Metal to point to Folk Metal, as it isn't strictly a type of Black Metal. --

181:

and talking about bands that bring in elements of industrial etc. could cause some controversy.

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something similar to that. Many of the bands in the movement have articles here on wikipedia.

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Then User:Logical Defense in a change of heart decides to allow the "main article" referral to

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Haha fanboyism? First of all they are not my favorite bands and second of all most bands. Both

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Once again a discussion about what is and what is not BM. I suggest that everyone reads this:

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and most reports & interviews on the subject contradict one another in a number of ways.

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Both are real genres but I can understand the argument with war metal. Norsecore, though,

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Which one came first? There seems to be a debate about this. Any facts to support either???

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Combined the numerous footnotes that were identical using the formula <ref name="": -->

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Is black metal brutal at all? Since many death metal fans disses black metal and thinking

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Most black metal is supposed to be raw, etc. and most bm bands shun the use of keyboards.

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Aside that it is largely unsourced, I ran across the following issues with this article:

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most black metal is supposed to be raw, etc. and most bm bands shun the use of keyboards

4656:

This is true, but when talking about instruments we are aiming for generalities, and in

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I've heard the term used in relation to black metal, but I have no idea what it means.

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I wonder why in hell Tiamat and their precedessor Treblinka is not a mentioned? Because

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symphonic elements, so the term "blackened thrash" then became somewhat of a necessity.

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even mention hellhammer/celtic frost (I just added one line that needs to be expanded).

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post-black metal. At least their newer stuff. But there's no such genre. It's just

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No one knows the truth for sure except Mr Vikernes and we can't take his word for it.

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And for those of you who still aren't convinced, I'd say you're probably infected by

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But conversely, you wouldn't regard keyboards as atypical, given their prevalence.

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is a little blunt but the guy knows what he's talking about. His edits are good.

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Your work is much appreciated. Most metal articles are very messy, like including

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Totally unecessary copy/paste from my talk page removed. I explain why below (*).

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I'd like to know why the Norwegians hated Beherit so much to spawn a band called

504:

i havent heard of oreintal metal, but neoclassical i hear mentioned quite often--

5221:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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The reverting of a cleanup of duplicating footnotes is just plain destructive.

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and go against the few semi-reliable sources that there are about this subject.

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In what sense are Moonblood "essential"? And specifically, can you source that?

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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Allowing bands to define their own genre by what they say is a terrible idea.

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page is a low quality page. Refering to extreme metal is not a good idea imo.

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7. Misc - Can we take the NSBM section out? as a subgenre with its own page?--

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Black metal is an extreme heavy metal subgenre. It is typically abrasive and

2849:- Sorry, I didn't really make a point. My point is that the popularity does 1403:

Although this sort of things is a common feature, it is not a universal one.

657:

as "It is generally accepted that Blasphemy were the first "War Metal" band".

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Upon this I revert User:Logical Defense, leaving this in the edit summary: "

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Use talk page instead of blanket reversal of constructive good faith edits.

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Back in December there was an AfD for pagan metal, the result of which was

3171:

who is permanently blocked from editing Knowledge and can be disregarded.

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so myself) has contributed a great deal, often which is underrepresented.

1488:

Characteristics is a huge list that needs to be reworked into proper prose

1167:

It was written in Swedish or Norwegian, not that it matters because there

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to do with this article but is shameless self promotion and pure idiocy.

3357: 2165: 1369: 1096:. I've never saw anything about them othe rthan the Metal-Archives page. 958: 3457:

same parodic voice–Cooper bursts into laugher)"<ref name="Dunn"/: -->

2199:) compilation? Listen to the last track, "Radio Venom": they're dissing 2768: 2304: 970: 566:

Someone should explain why they all wear black and white face paint...

1869:(the archive of this conversation is in available this page's history) 1171:

more on it than just those words as the media would have you believe.

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Yes, that's funny but we're hardly arguing about what is and what is

4725: 4442: 2392: 2335: 2208: 2169: 2130: 1003: 2262:", that someone is actually limiting the extent of their influence. 1843:

Try reading what people write; maybe you'll be able to write better.

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I created a userbox related to black metal.(highlight to read text)

396:- dunno if it fits well in this article. It also has close ties to 116:

NSBM out and implies that their bands were part of the same scene.

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There seems to be no mention of LLN and the bands involved, viz.,

3149:

I removed the Neutrality warning. The editor is just Pov pushing.

2554: 2326:, of course). These three were putting out their first records in 4922:

I'm confused. If you agree with Blizzard Beast that it is true "

3892: 2944: 2331: 2327: 2196: 5200: 4139: 3509:" This spurs User:Logical Defense to revert back commenting: " 2816: 2557:

defines itself as love metal. Think we should listen to that?

1397:

progression typical of the styl would go something like this:

25: 4625:

I saw that the portuguese wikipedia had a war metal article:

3485:

Sam Dunn's spiffy characterization of Black Metal is removed.

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i've heard people referencing oriental metal. Like Loudness.

4857:"they can be regarded as typical in some sub-genres of BM," 3215:

Knowledge article constitutes fair use. In addition to the

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I've only ever heard norsecore used as a derogatory term.

1613:

Yes, the First wave is essentially blackened thrash metal.

666:

I'd like to know what others think of these ideas first?--

4724:

does not have clean hands. But also other bands, such as

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User:Logical Defense leaves the following edit summary: "

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significance, and should deserve a section at the least.

137:

I think it's good the way it is, as it says "Black metal

3430:

Alice Cooper makes a commentary on his appraisal of the

2311:. I fully agree on that. But weren't they influenced by 4695:

I have reverted the deletion of the "keyboards" in the

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The Venom thing is real annoying and needs to be fixed.

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in their music but that doesn't means it's typical of

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Are you all too lazy to respond about this business?!

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It seems to me that "The First Wave" basically equals

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Yes, the "Teutonic Thrash" trio are truly important:

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okay.....i was just throwing it out there. where do

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from the occult and from any sort of "black"ness. --

130:Christian black metal bands by actual music styles 3608:is Norwegian black metal, using it as a source for 3246:. If you have any questions please ask them at the 2586:Would it help to call them blackend thrash metal? 2092:thrash and speed metal. User:FromByond - Dec 2007 4521:) talking about the first and second wave of bm. 1658:One also deleted the entry (with a linked source 560:BTW, The Origins of Black Metal Publication : --> 892:metal. Definitely not a subgenre thereof though. 765:Ok I archived it. It was getting much too long. 310:Yeah, i agree there should be some samples IMO. 4537:Metalstorm.ee there's also the third wave!). -- 4469:To all editors of the black metal article-music 3829:the deletion page that would be really useful. 2459:bands; a few years ago they were simply called 1281:for live performance. Most bands do play live. 3187:Fair use rationale for Image:Gorgorothvid.jpg 1510:Modern Black Metal does reflect a third wave? 875:Deleted War Metal due to lack of objectives. 562:The Origins of Black Metal is a "dead" link. 8: 4274:subgenres", which would help to keep it...-- 3824:The page is currently up for deletion as no 2334:; that's 1-2 years later than the debuts of 1604:Some of the descriptions are vague, I agree. 1229:This is post-black, rather than a new wave. 542:Indeed. The only one related to it would be 3167:the above from IP 209.X is an anon sock of 2353:? Does anybody else agree that they're not 4271:Knowledge:WikiProject Music genres/Colours 4809:make them typical of the genre either. -- 4441:(or at least the earlier stuff) whereas 5019:characterized by the use of fast tempos 4323:more info on black metal than unblack. 2776:NA's small scene just doesn't cut it. 682:other countries around the same time.-- 5219:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3438:of the Norwegian Black Metal bands in 3236:Knowledge:Fair use rationale guideline 2885:about BM whether they want to or not. 89:Archive from June 2006 to April 2008. 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3802:...cult...don't ever use that term... 7: 4166: 2572:"we are not BM, but extreme Metal". 965:if you want) came before bands like 737:showing or editing such long pages. 4473:The article needs music. Even the 3524:which is a redirect to the former. 2349:But... that's that. And what about 2125:Sorry, but that's a glaring error. 4204:What the fuck. That not only has 3453:parodizes in a feeble, timid voice 1589:In response to the initial issues: 274:6. Samples - We need to get some. 24: 4627:http://pt.wikipedia.org/War_metal 4290:I made it so it now rediredts to 4032:sound. Just look at the results 3518:Early Norwegian black metal scene 3492:Early Norwegian black metal scene 2947:as black metal is a bad source... 2180:be a part of something that came 2056:Black metal or Death metal first? 5204: 4494:First/second wave of black metal 3501:Inline YouTube link is restored. 3234:. Using one of the templates at 2612:Logical Defense, your reversions 191:5. Artists - Seems good to me. 29: 4847:. As for your latest comment, 998:for Switzerland and maybe even 4581:National Socialist black metal 4513:Wrong. They are well sourced 4296:black metal#modern black metal 3248:Media copyright questions page 2943:If you agree a source listing 2081:17:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC) 1980:18:27, 23 September 2007 (UTC) 1967:17:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC) 1947:, can i have an explanation? 1651:Where should i place the band 913:03:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC) 826:), but nothing was ever done. 687:08:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC) 587:Merging the intro with History 236:03:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC) 157:16:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC) 147:21:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC) 110:06:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC) 1: 4309:23:46, 12 February 2008 (UTC) 3774:What the heck does kvlt mean? 3627:23:09, 29 December 2007 (UTC) 3591:23:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC) 3572:22:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC) 3548:20:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC) 3440:Metal: A Headbanger's Journey 3360:characterizes this genre as " 3353:Metal: A Headbanger's Journey 3309:18:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC) 3285:19:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC) 3262:23:40, 22 December 2007 (UTC) 3217:boilerplate fair use template 3145:01:38, 29 December 2007 (UTC) 3113:18:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC) 3093:00:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC) 3055:00:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC) 3017:23:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC) 3002:18:37, 28 November 2007 (UTC) 2984:22:10, 27 November 2007 (UTC) 2964:04:44, 17 November 2007 (UTC) 2853:vary in North America. It's 2689:00:36, 22 December 2007 (UTC) 2582:01:27, 29 December 2007 (UTC) 2567:04:17, 22 December 2007 (UTC) 2546:00:55, 22 December 2007 (UTC) 2525:00:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC) 2506:23:09, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 2494:23:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 2112:23:00, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 2065:19:06, 9 September 2007 (UTC) 2051:22:21, 8 September 2007 (UTC) 2038:18:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC) 2025:15:20, 8 September 2007 (UTC) 1945:ball pinced bitches screaming 1472:21:15, 15 February 2007 (UTC) 1412:06:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC) 1378:18:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC) 1286:21:14, 17 December 2006 (UTC) 1267:16:05, 17 December 2006 (UTC) 1221:12:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC) 1072:15:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC) 582:14:18, 23 February 2007 (UTC) 315:09:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC) 300:00:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC) 263:21:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC) 186:21:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC) 170:08:14, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 4575:I'm not sure we should have 4281:11:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 4240:15:00, 5 February 2008 (UTC) 4218:21:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC) 4193:15:25, 4 February 2008 (UTC) 4173:This user likes black metal. 4152:14:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC) 4132:21:33, 4 February 2008 (UTC) 4109:01:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC) 4092:00:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC) 4067:00:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC) 4046:00:04, 1 February 2008 (UTC) 4018:21:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC) 3991:00:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC) 3948:00:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC) 3910:23:43, 31 January 2008 (UTC) 3865:23:26, 31 January 2008 (UTC) 3839:16:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC) 3812:23:18, 31 January 2008 (UTC) 3794:02:21, 20 January 2008 (UTC) 3244:criteria for speedy deletion 2935:23:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 2915:23:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 2896:23:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 2868:23:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 2833:23:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 2787:23:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC) 2734:01:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 2712:23:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC) 2673:18:51, 29 October 2007 (UTC) 2658:05:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC) 2640:01:20, 14 October 2007 (UTC) 2626:01:10, 14 October 2007 (UTC) 2468:10:52, 19 October 2007 (UTC) 2439:03:47, 19 October 2007 (UTC) 2426:22:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC) 2318:from the start? (Except for 2242:- or even newer stuff like " 2168:... They are the product of 1839:It's in the article already. 1350:02:07, 24 January 2007 (UTC) 1325:01:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC) 1246:09:41 15 December 2006(UTC) 1189:18:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC) 1176:17:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC) 1149:06:31, 16 October 2007 (UTC) 1101:00:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC) 1043:21:13, 10 October 2006 (UTC) 710:16:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC) 700:09:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC) 491:23:15, 31 January 2008 (UTC) 253:21:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC) 5099:20:17, 24 April 2008 (UTC) 4948:11:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC) 4840:14:07, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 4772:08:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 3754:00:56, 6 January 2008 (UTC) 3727:00:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC) 3710:17:04, 5 January 2008 (UTC) 3694:10:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC) 3667:10:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC) 3651:06:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC) 3465:In a remarkable display of 3181:22:44, 1 January 2008 (UTC) 3159:20:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC) 2380:20:08, 1 October 2007 (UTC) 2362:18:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC) 2292:15:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC) 2279:14:35, 1 October 2007 (UTC) 1757:is an acceptable spelling, 1691:Intro and ideology sections 1435:16:12, 3 January 2007 (UTC) 1387:13:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC) 1303:10:59, 1 January 2007 (UTC) 1014:19:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC) 948:18:53, 4 October 2006 (UTC) 223:23:28, 1 January 2007 (UTC) 203:22:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC) 5275: 5196:21:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC) 5180:14:01, 25 April 2008 (UTC) 5141:21:19, 26 April 2008 (UTC) 5126:06:48, 25 April 2008 (UTC) 5117:21:27, 24 April 2008 (UTC) 5088:17:05, 24 April 2008 (UTC) 5073:00:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC) 5058:20:57, 21 April 2008 (UTC) 5037:00:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC) 4981:20:55, 21 April 2008 (UTC) 4966:11:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC) 4936:07:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC) 4905:20:13, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 4819:13:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 4804:13:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 4790:13:11, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 4691:00:01, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 4672:23:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC) 4640:22:29, 14 April 2008 (UTC) 4615:22:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC) 4598:02:20, 13 April 2008 (UTC) 4566:19:53, 27 March 2008 (UTC) 4547:15:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC) 4532:22:58, 24 March 2008 (UTC) 4508:10:56, 21 March 2008 (UTC) 4489:20:44, 15 March 2008 (UTC) 4464:19:41, 14 March 2008 (UTC) 4432:01:40, 13 March 2008 (UTC) 4409:01:27, 13 March 2008 (UTC) 4292:dark ambient#black ambient 4249:There is one thing. It is 3560:True Norwegian Black Metal 3407:True Norwegian Black Metal 3400:.<ref name="Dunn"/: --> 3356:, Canadian anthropologist 3228:the image description page 2144:article as reference, but 1621:23:10, 13 March 2007 (UTC) 1577:23:07, 13 March 2007 (UTC) 1563:23:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC) 1521:21:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC) 409:08:48, 30 April 2006 (UTC) 389:23:54, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 4386:08:39, 5 March 2008 (UTC) 4370:22:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC) 4355:21:18, 3 March 2008 (UTC) 4334:20:41, 3 March 2008 (UTC) 3770:These guys need mention. 3230:and edit it to include a 2750:I'm sorry but, no. Asia 2342:(and I'm not counting on 2187:Anyone of you ever heard 2121:Venom... Thrash Metal???? 1934:03:17, 31 July 2007 (UTC) 1915:22:37, 18 June 2007 (UTC) 1850:19:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC) 1793:00:57, 18 June 2007 (UTC) 1704:22:37, 18 June 2007 (UTC) 1443:Several Edits/Merged Info 897:16:53, 11 June 2007 (UTC) 849:21:19, 17 June 2006 (UTC) 724:16:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC) 671:19:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC) 527:18:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC) 331:16:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC) 282:16:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC) 4863:is known to incorporate 4843:I agree completely with 4722:Grand Declaration of War 3882:independant thrid party 3820:Les Legions Noires again 3522:Black Metal Inner Circle 3422:link, same day, I added: 3405:Added a red wikilink to 3209:explanation or rationale 2140:. Also: I hate citing a 1686:11:58, 9 June 2007 (UTC) 1669:01:57, 19 May 2007 (UTC) 1480:Issues with this article 788:17:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC) 570:Corpse painting/clothing 509:22:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC) 465:02:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC) 4023:War metal and norsecore 3342:edit of Dec 25, I added 3317:Guarding of article vs 2606:21:57, 1 May 2008 (UTC) 2258:. By calling the band " 2193:Skeletons in the Closet 1198:01:10, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 1158:Sorry for all the blood 760:03:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC) 638:03:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC) 93:Wikiproject improvments 4716:for example. And even 3200:Image:Gorgorothvid.jpg 3195: 2951:Please speak out here 1771:edits is not welcomed. 1734:listening to a record. 1506:blackened thrash metal 1425:I found an article on 352:), so it must to have 5217:of past discussions. 4861:Technical death metal 4621:War metal (hilarious) 4339:Wow, no wonder! The 4053:Then Be Bold! Find a 3398:Norwegian Black Metal 3384:edit the same day, I: 3211:as to why its use in 3194: 1368:I added a note about 1257:comment was added by 1062:comment was added by 805:comment was added by 598:comment was added by 426:comment was added by 213:comment was added by 42:of past discussions. 5094:What is Black Metal? 4229:suggest it belongs? 3638:User:Logical Defense 3411:Removed YouTube link 3331:User:Logical Defense 2474:FromByond Dec 2007 1674:Advertising, removed 4233:the juggreserection 4186:the juggreserection 3350:In the documentary 2402:." Later, you say " 1925:Pendulum strumming? 991:Melodic Death Metal 862:16:25, June 23 2006 420:not actual genres. 363:(3 keep, 2 delete, 5020: 4380:talk:unblack metal 3674:Les Légions Noires 3232:fair use rationale 3196: 2254:have something of 1805:"they should know 258:opinions on this. 5262: 5261: 5229: 5228: 5223:current talk page 5115: 5086: 5056: 5018: 4979: 4903: 4891:avant garde metal 4887:progressive metal 4670: 4638: 4613: 4564: 4530: 4487: 4462: 4407: 4368: 4353: 4332: 4307: 4177: 4176: 3981:. Simple really. 3796: 3784:comment added by 3649: 3490:See main article 3467:article ownership 3327:article ownership 3015: 2933: 2894: 2866: 2809:original research 2785: 2710: 2608: 2592:comment added by 2496: 2480:comment added by 2395:, which happened 2133:, which happened 2114: 2098:comment added by 1969: 1953:comment added by 1753:Moreover, though 1270: 1151: 1139:comment added by 1075: 1036:original research 818: 611: 439: 226: 87: 86: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 5266: 5243: 5231: 5230: 5208: 5207: 5201: 5124:User:Brynnar/sig 5114: 5111: 5097:User:Brynnar/sig 5085: 5082: 5055: 5052: 5047:of black metal. 4978: 4975: 4946:User:Brynnar/sig 4916:User:Brynnar/sig 4902: 4899: 4838:User:Brynnar/sig 4770:User:Brynnar/sig 4669: 4666: 4637: 4634: 4612: 4609: 4563: 4560: 4529: 4526: 4486: 4483: 4461: 4458: 4403: 4384:User:Brynnar/sig 4367: 4364: 4352: 4349: 4331: 4328: 4306: 4303: 4279: 4235: 4188: 4167: 4082:for the record. 3826:reliable sources 3779: 3766:Tiamat/Treblinka 3691: 3648: 3645: 3530:reliable sources 3207:but there is no 3014: 3011: 2932: 2929: 2893: 2890: 2865: 2862: 2784: 2781: 2709: 2706: 2587: 2475: 2391:are part of the 2359:Musicaindustrial 2276:Musicaindustrial 2129:are part of the 2093: 2022: 2020: 2015: 2010: 1988:Tiamat/Treblinka 1948: 1252: 1134: 1057: 879:Some weird stuff 837: 800: 776: 748: 626: 593: 421: 377: 208: 68: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 18:Talk:Black metal 5274: 5273: 5269: 5268: 5267: 5265: 5264: 5263: 5239: 5205: 5109: 5080: 5050: 5013: 4973: 4970:A-fuckin'-men. 4897: 4883:symphonic metal 4780:instruments. -- 4664: 4647: 4632: 4623: 4607: 4573: 4558: 4524: 4496: 4481: 4471: 4456: 4416:reliable source 4397: 4395:Raw Black Metal 4362: 4347: 4326: 4316: 4301: 4288: 4275: 4247: 4231: 4184: 4178: 4160: 4078:the extreme of 4055:reliable source 4025: 3884:reliable source 3822: 3776: 3768: 3689: 3677: 3643: 3606:Cradle of Filth 3322: 3301:Logical Defense 3272: 3270:church burnings 3189: 3151:209.107.117.197 3105:Logical Defense 3065: 3063:Need Neutrality 3009: 2994:Logical Defense 2971: 2949: 2927: 2888: 2860: 2779: 2704: 2665: 2655:Logical Defense 2614: 2123: 2078:Logical Defense 2058: 2048:Logical Defense 2046:best location. 2018: 2013: 2008: 2006: 2002: 1990: 1941: 1927: 1912:Logical Defense 1701:Logical Defense 1693: 1676: 1649: 1482: 1445: 1432:Lord of nothing 1423: 1394: 1366: 1253:—The preceding 1251:the audience). 1239: 1210: 1160: 1058:—The preceding 1024:Master's Hammer 920: 918:The second wave 881: 833: 801:—The preceding 796: 772: 744: 734: 622: 594:—The preceding 589: 572: 544:Blackened Pagan 422:—The preceding 373: 339: 209:—The preceding 132:Christian Black 95: 64: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 5272: 5270: 5260: 5259: 5254: 5249: 5244: 5237: 5227: 5226: 5209: 5199: 5198: 5150: 5149: 5148: 5147: 5146: 5145: 5144: 5143: 5129: 5128: 5127: 5110:Blizzard Beast 5081:Blizzard Beast 5075: 5051:Blizzard Beast 5012: 5009: 5008: 5007: 5006: 5005: 5004: 5003: 5002: 5001: 5000: 4999: 4998: 4997: 4996: 4995: 4994: 4993: 4992: 4991: 4990: 4989: 4988: 4987: 4986: 4985: 4984: 4983: 4974:Blizzard Beast 4898:Blizzard Beast 4674: 4665:Blizzard Beast 4646: 4643: 4633:Blizzard Beast 4622: 4619: 4618: 4617: 4608:Blizzard Beast 4572: 4569: 4559:Blizzard Beast 4552: 4551: 4550: 4549: 4525:Blizzard Beast 4495: 4492: 4482:Blizzard Beast 4470: 4467: 4457:Blizzard Beast 4435: 4434: 4396: 4393: 4392: 4391: 4390: 4389: 4388: 4387: 4363:Blizzard Beast 4348:Blizzard Beast 4327:Blizzard Beast 4315: 4312: 4302:Blizzard Beast 4287: 4284: 4246: 4243: 4223: 4222: 4221: 4220: 4198: 4197: 4180: 4175: 4174: 4171: 4165: 4163: 4159: 4156: 4155: 4154: 4097: 4096: 4095: 4094: 4069: 4024: 4021: 4006: 4005: 4004: 4003: 4002: 4001: 4000: 3999: 3998: 3997: 3996: 3995: 3994: 3993: 3961: 3960: 3959: 3958: 3957: 3956: 3955: 3954: 3953: 3952: 3951: 3950: 3919: 3918: 3917: 3916: 3915: 3914: 3913: 3912: 3872: 3871: 3870: 3869: 3868: 3867: 3821: 3818: 3817: 3816: 3815: 3814: 3775: 3772: 3767: 3764: 3763: 3762: 3761: 3760: 3759: 3758: 3757: 3756: 3676: 3671: 3670: 3669: 3644:Blizzard Beast 3634: 3633: 3632: 3631: 3630: 3629: 3596: 3595: 3594: 3593: 3575: 3574: 3503: 3502: 3499: 3496: 3495:") is removed. 3486: 3483: 3463: 3462: 3461: 3460: 3424: 3423: 3415: 3414: 3413: 3412: 3409: 3403: 3392: 3386: 3385: 3377: 3376: 3375: 3374: 3344: 3343: 3321: 3315: 3314: 3313: 3312: 3311: 3297: 3296:the confusion? 3271: 3268: 3266: 3254:BetacommandBot 3188: 3185: 3184: 3183: 3173:156.34.239.197 3132: 3131: 3130: 3129: 3128: 3127: 3118: 3117: 3116: 3115: 3097: 3064: 3061: 3059: 3042: 3041: 3040: 3039: 3038: 3037: 3036: 3035: 3024: 3023: 3022: 3021: 3020: 3019: 3010:Blizzard Beast 2970: 2967: 2948: 2941: 2940: 2939: 2938: 2937: 2928:Blizzard Beast 2918: 2917: 2901: 2900: 2899: 2898: 2889:Blizzard Beast 2861:Blizzard Beast 2844: 2843: 2842: 2841: 2840: 2839: 2838: 2837: 2836: 2835: 2796: 2795: 2794: 2793: 2792: 2791: 2790: 2789: 2780:Blizzard Beast 2773:Judas Iscariot 2741: 2740: 2739: 2738: 2737: 2736: 2717: 2716: 2715: 2714: 2705:Blizzard Beast 2692: 2691: 2664: 2661: 2643: 2642: 2613: 2610: 2551: 2550: 2549: 2548: 2530: 2529: 2528: 2527: 2509: 2508: 2471: 2470: 2444: 2443: 2442: 2441: 2385: 2384: 2383: 2382: 2297: 2296: 2295: 2294: 2176:; so, how can 2148:is largely an 2122: 2119: 2118: 2117: 2116: 2115: 2086: 2085: 2084: 2083: 2057: 2054: 2043: 2042: 2041: 2040: 2001: 1998: 1989: 1986: 1985: 1984: 1983: 1982: 1940: 1937: 1926: 1923: 1922: 1921: 1920: 1919: 1918: 1917: 1902: 1901: 1900: 1899: 1898: 1897: 1886:86.154.174.199 1876: 1875: 1874: 1873: 1872: 1871: 1859: 1857: 1856: 1855: 1854: 1853: 1852: 1844: 1841: 1834: 1823:86.154.174.199 1816: 1815: 1814: 1813: 1812: 1811: 1798: 1797: 1796: 1795: 1784: 1783: 1782: 1781: 1775: 1774: 1773: 1772: 1765: 1764: 1763: 1762: 1748: 1747: 1746: 1745: 1738: 1737: 1736: 1735: 1731: 1718: 1708: 1692: 1689: 1675: 1672: 1648: 1645: 1644: 1643: 1642: 1641: 1640: 1639: 1638: 1637: 1625: 1615: 1614: 1611: 1608: 1605: 1602: 1599: 1595: 1594: 1593: 1592: 1591: 1590: 1582: 1581: 1580: 1579: 1566: 1565: 1515: 1514: 1511: 1508: 1502: 1499: 1496: 1493: 1489: 1481: 1478: 1444: 1441: 1439: 1422: 1419: 1406: 1400:I-II-I-IV-III 1393: 1390: 1365: 1362: 1361: 1360: 1359: 1358: 1357: 1356: 1355: 1354: 1353: 1352: 1334: 1333: 1332: 1331: 1330: 1329: 1328: 1327: 1310: 1309: 1308: 1307: 1306: 1305: 1291: 1290: 1289: 1288: 1272: 1271: 1259:62.165.128.200 1238: 1235: 1209: 1206: 1205: 1204: 1203: 1202: 1201: 1200: 1195:68.107.196.211 1186:Spartacusprime 1179: 1178: 1159: 1156: 1155: 1154: 1153: 1152: 1126: 1124: 1123: 1122: 1121: 1114: 1113: 1112: 1111: 1104: 1103: 1081: 1080: 1079: 1078: 1077: 1076: 1048: 1047: 1046: 1045: 1017: 1016: 1007: 919: 916: 900: 899: 880: 877: 866: 865: 864: 863: 852: 851: 795: 792: 791: 790: 733: 730: 729: 728: 727: 726: 713: 712: 692: 691: 690: 689: 676: 675: 674: 673: 661: 660: 659: 658: 647: 646: 645: 644: 588: 585: 571: 568: 565: 561:Articles : --> 558: 557: 556: 555: 554: 553: 552: 551: 550: 549: 548: 547: 520: 519: 518: 517: 516: 515: 514: 513: 512: 511: 479:Important Note 476: 475: 474: 473: 472: 471: 470: 469: 468: 467: 445: 444: 443: 442: 441: 440: 412: 411: 338: 335: 334: 333: 322: 320: 319: 318: 317: 305: 304: 303: 302: 272: 271: 270: 269: 268: 267: 266: 265: 255: 229: 228: 227: 215:62.165.128.200 189: 188: 174: 162: 161: 160: 159: 144:81.240.173.147 123: 122: 113: 112: 94: 91: 85: 84: 79: 74: 69: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 5271: 5258: 5255: 5253: 5250: 5248: 5245: 5242: 5238: 5236: 5233: 5232: 5224: 5220: 5216: 5215: 5210: 5203: 5202: 5197: 5193: 5189: 5184: 5183: 5182: 5181: 5177: 5173: 5167: 5164: 5159: 5154: 5142: 5138: 5134: 5130: 5125: 5120: 5119: 5118: 5113: 5112: 5105: 5101: 5100: 5098: 5095: 5091: 5090: 5089: 5084: 5083: 5076: 5074: 5070: 5066: 5061: 5060: 5059: 5054: 5053: 5046: 5041: 5040: 5039: 5038: 5034: 5030: 5024: 5022: 5011:"Fast tempo?" 5010: 4982: 4977: 4976: 4969: 4968: 4967: 4963: 4959: 4954: 4950: 4949: 4947: 4943: 4939: 4938: 4937: 4933: 4929: 4925: 4921: 4920: 4917: 4913: 4908: 4907: 4906: 4901: 4900: 4892: 4888: 4884: 4880: 4876: 4875: 4870: 4866: 4862: 4858: 4854: 4850: 4846: 4842: 4841: 4839: 4835: 4831: 4827: 4822: 4821: 4820: 4816: 4812: 4807: 4806: 4805: 4801: 4797: 4796:Blackmetalbaz 4793: 4792: 4791: 4787: 4783: 4779: 4774: 4773: 4771: 4767: 4763: 4759: 4755: 4751: 4747: 4743: 4739: 4735: 4731: 4727: 4723: 4720:on the album 4719: 4715: 4711: 4707: 4703: 4698: 4694: 4693: 4692: 4688: 4684: 4683:Blackmetalbaz 4680: 4675: 4673: 4668: 4667: 4659: 4655: 4654: 4653: 4652: 4651: 4644: 4642: 4641: 4636: 4635: 4628: 4620: 4616: 4611: 4610: 4602: 4601: 4600: 4599: 4595: 4591: 4586: 4582: 4578: 4577:Unblack metal 4570: 4568: 4567: 4562: 4561: 4548: 4544: 4540: 4539:Born Again 83 4535: 4534: 4533: 4528: 4527: 4520: 4516: 4512: 4511: 4510: 4509: 4505: 4501: 4500:Born Again 83 4493: 4491: 4490: 4485: 4484: 4476: 4475:unblack metal 4468: 4466: 4465: 4460: 4459: 4453:black metal. 4452: 4448: 4444: 4440: 4433: 4429: 4425: 4424:Blackmetalbaz 4421: 4417: 4413: 4412: 4411: 4410: 4406: 4402: 4394: 4385: 4381: 4377: 4376:unblack metal 4373: 4372: 4371: 4366: 4365: 4358: 4357: 4356: 4351: 4350: 4342: 4341:unblack metal 4338: 4337: 4336: 4335: 4330: 4329: 4322: 4314:Unblack metal 4313: 4311: 4310: 4305: 4304: 4297: 4293: 4286:Black ambient 4285: 4283: 4282: 4278: 4272: 4268: 4264: 4260: 4256: 4252: 4244: 4242: 4241: 4238: 4236: 4234: 4228: 4219: 4215: 4211: 4207: 4203: 4202: 4201: 4200: 4199: 4195: 4194: 4191: 4189: 4187: 4181: 4172: 4169: 4168: 4164: 4157: 4153: 4149: 4145: 4144:Blackmetalbaz 4142:. Thank you. 4141: 4136: 4135: 4134: 4133: 4129: 4125: 4121: 4116: 4111: 4110: 4106: 4102: 4093: 4089: 4085: 4084:Blackmetalbaz 4081: 4077: 4074: 4070: 4068: 4064: 4060: 4059:Blackmetalbaz 4056: 4052: 4051: 4050: 4049: 4048: 4047: 4043: 4039: 4035: 4030: 4022: 4020: 4019: 4015: 4011: 3992: 3988: 3984: 3983:Blackmetalbaz 3980: 3975: 3974: 3973: 3972: 3971: 3970: 3969: 3968: 3967: 3966: 3965: 3964: 3963: 3962: 3949: 3945: 3941: 3936: 3931: 3930: 3929: 3928: 3927: 3926: 3925: 3924: 3923: 3922: 3921: 3920: 3911: 3907: 3903: 3902:Blackmetalbaz 3898: 3894: 3890: 3889:verifiability 3885: 3880: 3879: 3878: 3877: 3876: 3875: 3874: 3873: 3866: 3862: 3858: 3854: 3850: 3847: 3846: 3845: 3844: 3843: 3842: 3841: 3840: 3836: 3832: 3831:Blackmetalbaz 3827: 3819: 3813: 3809: 3805: 3801: 3800: 3799: 3798: 3797: 3795: 3791: 3787: 3783: 3773: 3771: 3765: 3755: 3751: 3747: 3743: 3740: 3737: 3734: 3730: 3729: 3728: 3724: 3720: 3719:Blackmetalbaz 3715: 3714: 3713: 3712: 3711: 3707: 3703: 3702:Blackmetalbaz 3698: 3697: 3696: 3695: 3692: 3686: 3682: 3675: 3672: 3668: 3664: 3660: 3655: 3654: 3653: 3652: 3647: 3646: 3639: 3628: 3624: 3620: 3616: 3611: 3607: 3602: 3601: 3600: 3599: 3598: 3597: 3592: 3588: 3584: 3579: 3578: 3577: 3576: 3573: 3569: 3565: 3561: 3557: 3552: 3551: 3550: 3549: 3545: 3541: 3536: 3533: 3531: 3525: 3523: 3519: 3514: 3512: 3508: 3500: 3497: 3494: 3493: 3487: 3484: 3480: 3479: 3478: 3476: 3472: 3468: 3459: 3456: 3452: 3449: 3446: 3443: 3439: 3437: 3433: 3428: 3427: 3426: 3425: 3421: 3417: 3416: 3410: 3408: 3404: 3401: 3399: 3393: 3390: 3389: 3388: 3387: 3383: 3379: 3378: 3373: 3371: 3368:, dressed as 3367: 3363: 3359: 3354: 3351: 3348: 3347: 3346: 3345: 3341: 3337: 3336: 3335: 3332: 3328: 3320: 3316: 3310: 3306: 3302: 3298: 3295: 3292:I'm sorry... 3291: 3290: 3289: 3288: 3287: 3286: 3282: 3278: 3269: 3267: 3264: 3263: 3259: 3255: 3251: 3250:. Thank you. 3249: 3245: 3239: 3237: 3233: 3229: 3226:Please go to 3224: 3222: 3218: 3214: 3210: 3206: 3202: 3201: 3193: 3186: 3182: 3178: 3174: 3170: 3166: 3163: 3162: 3161: 3160: 3156: 3152: 3147: 3146: 3142: 3138: 3137:69.47.128.166 3124: 3123: 3122: 3121: 3120: 3119: 3114: 3110: 3106: 3102: 3101: 3100: 3099: 3098: 3095: 3094: 3090: 3086: 3080: 3076: 3072: 3069: 3062: 3060: 3057: 3056: 3052: 3048: 3032: 3031: 3030: 3029: 3028: 3027: 3026: 3025: 3018: 3013: 3012: 3005: 3004: 3003: 2999: 2995: 2990: 2989: 2988: 2987: 2986: 2985: 2981: 2977: 2969:Need opinions 2968: 2966: 2965: 2961: 2957: 2953: 2946: 2942: 2936: 2931: 2930: 2922: 2921: 2920: 2919: 2916: 2912: 2908: 2907:Blackmetalbaz 2903: 2902: 2897: 2892: 2891: 2884: 2879: 2874: 2873: 2872: 2871: 2870: 2869: 2864: 2863: 2856: 2852: 2848: 2834: 2830: 2826: 2825:Blackmetalbaz 2822: 2818: 2814: 2810: 2806: 2805: 2804: 2803: 2802: 2801: 2800: 2799: 2798: 2797: 2788: 2783: 2782: 2774: 2770: 2766: 2762: 2758: 2753: 2749: 2748: 2747: 2746: 2745: 2744: 2743: 2742: 2735: 2731: 2727: 2726:Blackmetalbaz 2723: 2722: 2721: 2720: 2719: 2718: 2713: 2708: 2707: 2700: 2696: 2695: 2694: 2693: 2690: 2686: 2682: 2677: 2676: 2675: 2674: 2671: 2663:South America 2662: 2660: 2659: 2656: 2650: 2648: 2641: 2638: 2634: 2630: 2629: 2628: 2627: 2624: 2620: 2611: 2609: 2607: 2603: 2599: 2595: 2591: 2584: 2583: 2579: 2575: 2574:69.47.128.166 2569: 2568: 2564: 2560: 2556: 2547: 2543: 2539: 2534: 2533: 2532: 2531: 2526: 2522: 2518: 2513: 2512: 2511: 2510: 2507: 2504: 2499: 2498: 2497: 2495: 2491: 2487: 2483: 2479: 2469: 2466: 2462: 2458: 2454: 2453: 2452: 2448: 2440: 2437: 2432: 2431: 2430: 2429: 2428: 2427: 2424: 2421: 2418: 2415: 2411: 2408: 2405: 2401: 2398: 2394: 2390: 2381: 2378: 2373: 2368: 2367: 2366: 2365: 2364: 2363: 2360: 2356: 2352: 2347: 2345: 2341: 2337: 2333: 2329: 2325: 2321: 2317: 2314: 2310: 2306: 2302: 2293: 2290: 2285: 2284: 2283: 2282: 2281: 2280: 2277: 2273: 2270: 2267: 2263: 2261: 2257: 2253: 2249: 2245: 2241: 2237: 2233: 2229: 2228:Extreme Metal 2225: 2221: 2216: 2214: 2210: 2206: 2202: 2198: 2194: 2190: 2185: 2183: 2179: 2175: 2174:Hardcore punk 2171: 2167: 2163: 2159: 2155: 2151: 2147: 2143: 2139: 2136: 2132: 2128: 2120: 2113: 2109: 2105: 2101: 2097: 2090: 2089: 2088: 2087: 2082: 2079: 2075: 2071: 2070: 2069: 2068: 2067: 2066: 2063: 2055: 2053: 2052: 2049: 2039: 2036: 2031: 2030: 2029: 2028: 2027: 2026: 2023: 2021: 2016: 2011: 2000:Black ambient 1999: 1997: 1995: 1987: 1981: 1978: 1974: 1973: 1972: 1971: 1970: 1968: 1964: 1960: 1956: 1952: 1946: 1939:the brutality 1938: 1936: 1935: 1932: 1924: 1916: 1913: 1908: 1907: 1906: 1905: 1904: 1903: 1895: 1894:86.145.249.81 1891: 1890:86.149.59.252 1887: 1882: 1881: 1880: 1879: 1878: 1877: 1870: 1866: 1865: 1864: 1863: 1862: 1861: 1860: 1851: 1848: 1845: 1842: 1840: 1835: 1831: 1830: 1829: 1828: 1827: 1826: 1825: 1824: 1819: 1808: 1804: 1803: 1802: 1801: 1800: 1799: 1794: 1791: 1788: 1787: 1786: 1785: 1779: 1778: 1777: 1776: 1769: 1768: 1767: 1766: 1760: 1756: 1752: 1751: 1750: 1749: 1742: 1741: 1740: 1739: 1732: 1728: 1723: 1722: 1721: 1720: 1719: 1716: 1715: 1714:86.149.59.252 1712: 1706: 1705: 1702: 1699: 1698: 1690: 1688: 1687: 1684: 1680: 1673: 1671: 1670: 1667: 1662: 1660: 1656: 1654: 1646: 1634: 1633: 1632: 1631: 1630: 1629: 1628: 1627: 1626: 1623: 1622: 1619: 1612: 1609: 1606: 1603: 1600: 1597: 1596: 1588: 1587: 1586: 1585: 1584: 1583: 1578: 1575: 1570: 1569: 1568: 1567: 1564: 1561: 1557: 1553: 1549: 1545: 1544: 1543: 1539: 1535: 1531: 1527: 1523: 1522: 1519: 1512: 1509: 1507: 1503: 1500: 1497: 1494: 1490: 1487: 1486: 1485: 1479: 1477: 1474: 1473: 1470: 1465: 1461: 1457: 1453: 1449: 1442: 1440: 1437: 1436: 1433: 1428: 1427:Black ambient 1421:Black Ambient 1420: 1418: 1414: 1413: 1410: 1404: 1401: 1398: 1391: 1389: 1388: 1385: 1380: 1379: 1376: 1371: 1363: 1351: 1348: 1344: 1343: 1342: 1341: 1340: 1339: 1338: 1337: 1336: 1335: 1326: 1323: 1318: 1317: 1316: 1315: 1314: 1313: 1312: 1311: 1304: 1301: 1297: 1296: 1295: 1294: 1293: 1292: 1287: 1284: 1280: 1276: 1275: 1274: 1273: 1268: 1264: 1260: 1256: 1249: 1248: 1247: 1245: 1236: 1234: 1230: 1227: 1223: 1222: 1219: 1214: 1207: 1199: 1196: 1192: 1191: 1190: 1187: 1183: 1182: 1181: 1180: 1177: 1174: 1170: 1166: 1165: 1164: 1157: 1150: 1146: 1142: 1141:202.1.168.129 1138: 1131: 1130: 1129: 1128: 1127: 1118: 1117: 1116: 1115: 1108: 1107: 1106: 1105: 1102: 1099: 1095: 1091: 1090: 1089: 1085: 1073: 1069: 1065: 1064:130.234.5.136 1061: 1054: 1053: 1052: 1051: 1050: 1049: 1044: 1041: 1037: 1033: 1029: 1025: 1021: 1020: 1019: 1018: 1015: 1012: 1008: 1005: 1001: 997: 992: 988: 984: 980: 976: 972: 968: 964: 960: 956: 952: 951: 950: 949: 946: 941: 937: 933: 929: 925: 917: 915: 914: 911: 906: 903: 898: 895: 890: 889: 888: 886: 885:Extreme metal 878: 876: 873: 872: 861: 856: 855: 854: 853: 850: 847: 843: 842: 838: 836: 831: 830: 825: 821: 820: 819: 816: 812: 808: 804: 793: 789: 786: 782: 781: 777: 775: 770: 769: 764: 763: 762: 761: 758: 754: 753: 749: 747: 742: 741: 731: 725: 722: 717: 716: 715: 714: 711: 708: 704: 703: 702: 701: 698: 688: 685: 680: 679: 678: 677: 672: 669: 665: 664: 663: 662: 656: 651: 650: 649: 648: 641: 640: 639: 636: 632: 631: 627: 625: 620: 619: 614: 613: 612: 609: 605: 601: 597: 586: 584: 583: 580: 575: 569: 567: 563: 545: 541: 540: 539: 538: 537: 536: 535: 534: 533: 532: 531: 530: 529: 528: 525: 510: 507: 503: 502: 501: 500: 499: 498: 497: 496: 495: 494: 493: 492: 488: 484: 480: 466: 463: 459: 458: 457: 456: 455: 454: 453: 452: 451: 450: 449: 437: 433: 429: 428:71.122.166.35 425: 418: 417: 416: 415: 414: 413: 410: 407: 403: 399: 395: 393: 392: 391: 390: 387: 383: 382: 378: 376: 371: 370: 365: 362: 357: 355: 351: 348: 344: 336: 332: 329: 325: 324: 323: 316: 313: 309: 308: 307: 306: 301: 297: 293: 288: 287: 286: 285: 284: 283: 280: 275: 264: 261: 256: 254: 250: 246: 245:Blackmetalbaz 242: 241: 239: 238: 237: 234: 230: 224: 220: 216: 212: 206: 205: 204: 201: 197: 196: 194: 193: 192: 187: 184: 179: 178: 177: 172: 171: 168: 158: 155: 150: 149: 148: 145: 140: 136: 135: 134: 133: 129: 119: 118: 117: 111: 108: 103: 102: 101: 98: 92: 90: 83: 80: 78: 75: 73: 70: 67: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 5240: 5218: 5212: 5168: 5162: 5155: 5151: 5108: 5103: 5079: 5049: 5044: 5025: 5016: 5014: 4972: 4952: 4941: 4923: 4911: 4896: 4874:gothic metal 4872: 4856: 4852: 4848: 4844: 4830:thrash metal 4777: 4734:The Kovenant 4730:Siebenbürgen 4706:Dimmu Borgir 4678: 4663: 4657: 4648: 4631: 4624: 4606: 4584: 4574: 4557: 4553: 4523: 4514: 4497: 4480: 4472: 4455: 4436: 4398: 4361: 4346: 4325: 4320: 4317: 4300: 4289: 4276: 4259:Jimi Hendrix 4255:Led Zeppelin 4250: 4248: 4232: 4226: 4224: 4205: 4196: 4185: 4182: 4179: 4161: 4119: 4114: 4112: 4098: 4075: 4028: 4026: 4007: 3934: 3896: 3852: 3848: 3823: 3786:66.69.86.114 3777: 3769: 3678: 3642: 3635: 3609: 3537: 3534: 3526: 3515: 3510: 3506: 3504: 3489: 3474: 3464: 3458: 3454: 3450: 3445: 3441: 3432:authenticity 3429: 3397: 3395: 3370:Alice Cooper 3355: 3349: 3323: 3293: 3273: 3265: 3252: 3240: 3225: 3212: 3198: 3197: 3164: 3148: 3133: 3096: 3081: 3077: 3073: 3070: 3066: 3058: 3043: 3008: 2972: 2950: 2926: 2887: 2882: 2877: 2859: 2854: 2850: 2846: 2845: 2812: 2778: 2764: 2760: 2756: 2751: 2703: 2666: 2651: 2646: 2644: 2615: 2585: 2570: 2552: 2472: 2464: 2449: 2445: 2406: 2396: 2386: 2371: 2355:Thrash metal 2348: 2298: 2268: 2264: 2251: 2230:. 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