Talk:Blond - Knowledge (XXG)

864:

of the 20th century "archaic", and in fact no study is "verified" but only compared with other studies. And that goes for both current and old studies. The idea of using only peer-reviewed articles is perhaps even supported by Knowledge (XXG)'s editing rules, and I should inform myself about that, but a priori it seems to me to be a stupid criterion as it would prevent me from referencing any old article, including articles written by Einstein or Newton or any other scientist whose competence is universally accepted. Also, to say that he is just a "white supremacist" is just your opinion, and an editor cannot allow his own opinion to infiltrate Knowledge (XXG). Carleton Coon, for example, was president of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists and a professor at Harvard, and despite the current controversy surrounding his work, it can never be said that he is just a "white supremacist".

952: 3074:. how can this be "original research" and "own interpretations of ancient source" if the meaning of Dio's passage is clear without analysis from modern authors? I don't know how to look for such modern sources and whether there are any on this topic at all. Pitman probably didn't know about Dio's passage and just assumed that golden and her hair are related. Apollo was khrusokomas by Homer, literal golden-haired, Aphrodite was just chrysee. Only later poets described her as xanthos, violet-haired, etc, Homer didn't. 1609:

assumption with another equally bad one because of what I can only call a language flaw. I think from a reader standpoint it's weird to click on an article using "blond" only for the rest of the article to use "blonde". Though I suppose another viewpoint in that aspect would be some kind of flawed fairness with one sex represented through title and the other through use in the article itself. OR English adopts the approach of other languages and drops the gendering of this word eliminating this issue. ;)

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mention the troublesome issue with hair color and human remains, where it isn't uncommon for the hair to lighten over the millennia. Take for example red-haired mummies in the Americas where there exists no evidence of a mutated MC1R or other cause for the hair color. There has been some work done by Dr. Janet Davey with donated hair and wigs but such was limited and couldn't replicate thousands of years of aging. It's just overall a very limited and specious inclusion that sticks out.

3430:", or so I've heard. Pertinent to the request, the reason that images looking outward are not often used on the left side of the page is that they draw the readers eyes away from the text, and visa versa. This effect is enhanced with an image such as this one, which is looking directly outward from the text. As for the hair in the image, the darkness of the beard and much of the hair doesn't portray 'blond' as much as a mix of dark and blond hair. 2720:'Because of blond hair's relative commonness in northern Europe, folk tales from these regions tend to feature large numbers of blond protagonists. Although these stories may not have been seen by their original tellers as idealizing blond hair, Furthermore, it is noted that there is also a black-haired ideal of female beauty in northern Europe, as shown in plays like Snow White and other forms of entertainment portraying black-haired heroines.' 538: 517: 657: 485: 3041:. Many ancient works have been preserved in the form of quotations from later authors, there is no reason to believe that Synesius distorted original text of Dio. It looks like that epithet was widely known in antiquity as referring to personality of Aphrodite and not to her hair. Pitman does not provide evidence that khrysee refers to hair, how can he be a better source than man who lived in ancient era? 314: 293: 2690: 2205: 231: 324: 1649:: I have re-read the article. The article uses American spelling color. In American English this would be using blond as an adjective for both genders (but separate blond/blonde as a noun). For UK usage there is a distinct masculine and feminine usage for both noun and adjective. This specific grammatical gender issue is not well explained and needs to be expanded in the article. 624: 262: 2349:

in the past among diverse ancestral populations and did not coincide in any single population except as isolated individuals, and certainly not in any of the proposed homelands of the Indo-European language family. The study analyzed thousands of newly sequenced ancient samples and identified genetic mutations for blond hair in individuals belonging to the neolithic

1771: 2744: 2445: 2996:, Synesius completely copies the speech of Dio Chrysostom from his work of the 1st century AD. Dio says with full confidence that khrysee (golden) does not refer to her hair, it was apparently well known in antiquity, but may refer to her beauty for example. It's Pitman's job to prove why khrysee refers to hair, not the other way around. 2035:"In the 1960s and 1970s, research showed that blonde women were over-represented in Western popular media. However, research in Western countries has found that men in western countries generally find dark-haired women more attractive than those with blonde hair, and blonde women may not be over-represented in modern popular media" 3236:), but to paint a figure with literal gold (and not black paint, as the author adds) was though by the paiter to be unnutural. BUT in any case, this is indeed irrelevant here. I already told you about about the wikpedia rules, please take a look and do not keep asking me to just ignore them. (also, no need to tag me every time). 3055:

I'm afraid that you haven't been paying much attention to what I've been saying in my previous responses, and in particular the wikipedia rules that I indicated you. Instead, I see even more assumptions. Everything I had to say is included in my previous responses so I don't think there's a reason to

2888:

With Aphrodite's seal of approval, golden hair had become a tangible sign not only of great beauty For Greeks, golden blondeness was already associated with some powerful imagery. Homer lingered obsessively over his gorgeous Aphrodite raising her fully formed from the foaming sea wearing nothing but

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In contrast, geneticist Isof Lazaridis in his 2022 paper showed that blond hair did not spread into Europe with steppe pastoralists carrying Ancient North Eurasian ancestry. Regarding the genetic history of light hair, eyes, and skin, the authors state that "aspects of this phenotype were distributed

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ANE individual. However, as already stated, this mutation appears in farmer populations which did not contact ancient north eurasians or steppe pastoralists. Logically, this mutation must have originated in an ancestral population that gave descent to many West Eurasian groups, including European and

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A very similar conclusion is reached in Wortham, et al 2018. They note (p. 34) the same research dating back to the 1960s to suggest that blonde women are over-represented in fashion magazines. However they note (p.37) that research on preferences is inconclusive, citing studies to show that brunette

1486:

So, what to do? Well, one solution would be to randomize, or to alternate "blonde" and "blond". I think that'd be sloppy. It's usual, in the case where there's two ways to write a word, to be consistent within an article. So, this is one solution, but a bad one in my opinion. Or, we could replace all

1426:

OK. English is not a gendered language. Except for animals, objects have no gender. We don't worry about whether to use "le" or "la" when referring to an object. Neutral "the" works for everything. There are a very very few exceptions, and "blonde / blond" is one of them. So, for good or ill, English

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isn't referring to a hair color, but that this color was probably perceived by the painter in question as unnatural for a depiction. Among others, it says that the hair of Apollo was thought to have been fair and even when vase painters depicted it as dark (for reasons such as the limited palette of

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A 2019 study examining the neolithic Globular Amphora Culture found that all tested individuals carried the mutated allele rs12821256 of the KITLG gene encoding for blond hair. Notably, these Early European Farmers did not possess ancestry from Indo-European steppe pastoralists, and therefore lacked

2004:

You are certainly very policy savvy for such a new editor, have you been editing before? The issue we are facing overall is that the article is not called "blond attractiveness" yet large portions are devoted to it. I think this should be more briefly summed up, perhaps in its own section named such

1909:

By introducing these sources to the article, I am not creating a 'competition between hair colors', as you suggest. I am creating a balanced representation of the research that has critically examined the topic of blonde women's attractiveness, which is a key focus point of this article. The article

1411:

I am not familiar with this gender issue, it does not exist in my native language. What is the problem exactly and why do we need to change every instance of "blond" to "blonde", do we not then assume everyone is female? I don't want to revert just yet in case there is simply something I am missing,

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examples of blond(e) hair, particularly in immigrants outside South Africa? Or a section on the Americas for that matter. Additionally, there are certainly more examples of living blonde Africans (albeit from Albinism) than blonde mummies and there is no mention of them, either. The Egyptian example

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Second, none of these archaic reports can be verified and they probably all lacked peer review. No photos were taken, no objective instruments were used to measure hair color or lightness/darkness, etc. It was just one white supremacist, maybe with some kind of Von Luschen type of scale jotting down

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That source implies that chrusokomas was just a poetic device, and xanthos and melanos are actual colors. I don't agree with this and think that chrusokomas really described blond hair (for example, Sulla's hair was described as chrusopon), and that passage of Ion means that Greeks mostly preferred

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And you do not either like the poet who spoke of the golden-haired' Apollo; for if a painter were to represent the hair of the god as actually golden, and not black, the picture would be all the worse. Nor do you approve of the poet who spoke of rosy-fingered. For if any one were to dip his fingers

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was yellow and golden. Except for describing hair, the word was also used to describe various objects with a yellowish colour. It could at times be used with a secondary meaning to refer to shades of yellow, such as reddish brown, auburn etc. however, that was less common and these descriptions are

863:

Honestly, none of these justifications seem enough to me. If immigration has profoundly altered the demography of Western countries, then a brief mention of old studies is interesting because it highlights precisely these demographic changes. It is an exaggeration to call studies from the beginning

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First, there's accuracy. It's extremely improbable that these figures from the early 1900s are meaningful anymore when countries like France have received millions of immigrants from Southern Europe, Africa, Southeast Asia, Southwest Asia, etc, for decades, collectively outnumbering any immigration

3444:

Yeah, I understood what you meant. I've heard this before, although this is more up to personal preferences and not really a rule that is strictly followed. I only commented based on my own experience, since the direction of one's face never caused me any confusion when reading an article. I can't

3192:

You are a great man in poetry, O Sophocles; but still Phrynichus did not say well when he called purple cheeks a mark of beauty. For if a painter were to cover the cheeks of this boy with purple paint he would not be beautiful at all. And so it is not well to compare what is beautiful with what is

1612:

But thank you for the response, maybe you're right and an RfC or the like could be held, or at least more input gathered. Perhaps someone has a magical solution, but I doubt it. So for now given Knowledge (XXG)'s favouring of retaining existing variations unless there is very good reason to change

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Oh, I think I get what the point of your comment here was. Maybe there should be further context about the distinction between blond/blonde. It's one of the few cases of actually gender-specific nouns in English. It's way more common than using she for ships and as you said the distinction between

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What the source says: "Now adornment of hair seems to become men more than women according to Homer, for when he discourses of the beauty of women, he does not so often seem to have recalled to mind their hair. He praises those amongst the deities who are female, in other ways, he makes Aphrodite

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hypothesize (p. 430) that British participants would show a preference for blonde women based on research about their over-representation in popular media over the previous four decades. Yet contrary to their expectations, British subjects generally selected dark-haired women as ideal. They cite

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keeps editing in completely bogus claims regarding the hair colour. He has cherry picked a couple of badly researched sources that are not related to the subject of this article. I suspect his motivations to be ideological. We have mosaics from both the era of Berenice II and Alexander the Great

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I disagree, there are not so many images that it bloats the article, and the image is relevant regardless of being black and white. The placement of it next to the image of Marilyn Monroe also sets good examples of both male and female blond "sex symbols", so overall I don't think there is a good

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I don't see the point in completely destroying the section on Europe, removing a reference to an actual physical anthropologist, and keeping quotes from sociologists who tend not to study physical features and also to keep highly obscure historical references. I would like to complement it with a

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Every style advice page I check seems to have different guidance. Columbia Journalism Review (quoting Garner's Modern American Usage) says "“blond” is preferred in all senses as an adjective in American English" and quoting the Associated Press Stylebook “Use blond as a noun for males and as an

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4. Many of the sources provided in this section predate the papers I have cited here or reference outdated information. At the very least, new information should be included to balance out the old. Recently released papers from the past few years have analyzed thousands of new skeletal samples,

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On page 49 they discuss their findings. Similar to Swami, et al, they observed that brunette women are actually the majority of fashion models, contrary to research from decades prior that found that blonde women were the majority. They likewise cite Rich and Cash (1993), showing the decline of

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The primary issues is with the second paragraph. The second paragraph only makes mention of mummies, also existing at a time of increased outside influence and in one color segregated grave, more likely indicating familial connection than presence of the hair color in Africa. This isn't even to

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in other parts of the world, despite the wholesale export of European culture to the rest of the world in the last century. Without these perspectives, the article pumps up blond hair in a way that is inconsistent with Knowledge (XXG)'s policy on neutrality. We should deliver the whole body of

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But, what about referring to objects -- is it "blond-colored wood" or "blonde-colored wood? There's no answer, no rule in English, and no common practice. Same for people, when their sex is unknown -- is it "There were a number of blond people in the room", or "...blonde people"? Is it "Blonde

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etc. In this case that is blond, which you can see if you go to the oldest portion of the history, and that seems to have been the case for virtually all of the article's existence. So to answer your question of why not, this is more of a sidegrade rather than upgrade, because it replaces one

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encoding for light hair coloring, but this section only focuses on a single allele: rs12821256. It is misleading to simplify the genotype behind light colored hair to only one mutation. The aforementioned HIrisPlex-S panel examines several high impact SNPs encoding hair color in addition to

2818:, the source does not say directly "golden does not refer to hair," but says indirectly: "he makes Aphrodite "golden", Hera "ox-eyed" and Thetis "silver-footed"; but in the case of Zeus he praises his hair most of all". Anyway, thanks. The section actually requires a lot more text remove. 926:

I figured that getting rid of a black and white photograph would be the least controversial to remove from the article. While you can see that his hair is light, you can't tell from the photograph itself if it was a light brown or some other lighter pigment. I don't really see the point.

2978:, light-hearted mock essays, written more than a millennium after Homer's work. They were not meant to record mythical beliefs, but were merely pieces for entertainment. That's why they remain obscure and their contents are far from treated as mythological canons, like Homer or Hesiod. 2474:

Some original research - synthesis has taken place here. Reference 37 and 36 are two completely different papers, using two different samples. The first referencce, Vai (2021) uses a sample from Kierzkowo, Poland. While the second reference, Schroeder (2019) uses a sample from Koszyce,

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That is, if we felt we must use only one spelling (in contravention to most of the rest of the world it seems), there's no reason not to favor "blonde". With "blond" for a man we are saying "A male with yellow hair", and by using "blond" for a woman we are saying "A ma... well, not

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elevator operator" or "Blond elevator operator"? I don't know, and neither do you. If there were many such words, we probably would have a rule, and the rule would likely be to use "blond", because -- well, who makes the rules? But there aren't and we don't. So, we're on our own.

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probably referred to brown and light brown hair in most cases, since there are more people with brownish hair than with blondish. Greeks had no other word for brown hair. There is a similar thing in the Irish language, word buí means yellow, but brownish when referring to hair.

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of North and Central Europe (see page 22 of supplementals) . In terms of autosomal ancestry, Linear Pottery is on the same ancestral cline as Globular Amphora. Blond hair was present in the Neolithic of Anatolia (Turkey) at Barcın, Chalcolithic Southeastern Europe (Romania at

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The epithet as applied to Aphrodite referred originally to the golden adornment of her statues (cf. Hesiod, Works and Days, v.519), or the wealth of her shrines, or her beauty; just as in Homer she is χρυσέη Ἀφροδίτη, Diogenes twists the word πολύχρυσος to mean "costing much

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to have blond hair, with all sequenced individuals possessing the G allele of rs12821256 coding for light colored hair, notably found on the KITLG gene (see supplementary table 4). This culture predates the arrival of ANE-bearing western steppe herders from the east; this

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For he did not have to go anywhere for his sexual gratification but, as he humorously put it, he found Aphrodite everywhere, without expense; p261 and the poets libelled the goddess, he maintained, on account of their own want of self-control, when they called her "the

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So, that would leave us with using either "blonde" or "blond" throughout, in indeterminate situations. Which one? Search me, but unless we want to roll a die, why not "blonde", in this one case where we can avoid using the masculine form? Give woman pride of place for

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As for your comments about Jean Davey's work; it is unclear to me whether she refers to the mummies described in the article. Jean Davey has published forensic evidence suggesting that the mummies natural lifetime hair color has been preserved and was not altered

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Maybe it’s a regional or age thing, but I very, very rarely see the “blond” spelling (and even then usually from people much older than me). Maybe some places it has gendered spelling but it absolutely does not where I have lived my whole life (California).

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it seems like the issue here is mainly the length of the content. I agree: I have exhaustively described the findings of each study, when they could be merged in to one or two sentences. My proposal is to simply compress this content, which would read

2970:) and, apart from some exceptions, we cannot use raw text taken from an ancient author as a source, let alone when the text is so allusive and was not intended to be a reliable source in the first place. I already told you how Synesius' 5th century 1891:

other research, namely Rich and Cash (1993), to suggest that blonde women might not have been as over-represented in the media as previously believed, and that their results may be explained by the popularity of brunette women in popular media.

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It is possible that golden could refer to hair, since the adjective was used to describe hair in ancient texts. That's why it is there, eventhough we don't explicitly state that. Regarding the second part, I have already adequately responded.

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in light of my recent edits. Also, it would leave us with virtually nothing for the Europe section. So I'm sitting this down here until I can find reliable sources for any info on this hair color in Europe. Which shouldn't be too difficult. -

1921:(Fierman, 1991), to the extent that Russian educators struggled to convince local students otherwise (Kriendler, 1993). In East Asia, blonde hair is considered unattractive on women, and blonde immigrant women report that their hair color is 1193:

How come only the spelling "blond" is used? It's a gender-specific word. I know that "she was blond" is wrong (should be "blonde"); I would think that "she had blond hair" would also be wrong. Is there any good argument for not doing this?

3143:, we have evidence that chrysee was not perceived by ancients as reference to hair, which I think should be mentioned at least as a note. By the way some modern sources claim that even chrusokomas isn't referring to actual hair color, see 3110:, It's written in such a way that "golden" refers to hair when we know for sure it's not. That misleads readers. We can add "although according to Dio Chrysostom, this epithet doesn't refer to hair", or we can make a note. Your thoughts? 1682:

In your example sentence "she had blond hair", the word "blond" refers to the hair and not to the woman and thus isn't spelled "blonde". Blonde is only used when referring to a woman: "she is a blonde", "the blonde in the blue dress".

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The section on Africa seems a bit out of place compared to the others. The other regional sections discuss the indigenous/autochthonous presence of blond(e) hair but the Africa section seems to be exclusively external in source.

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Jacobi et al. (1994) examined hair color preferences based around the findings of Rich and Cash (1993). Like the previous authors, they found that there was a general preference for brunettes, and in their conclusion they wrote:

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there's no favoritism. I think it may be the only English word where this is true. So, unlike say actor/actress there is 1) no real argument for combining them, and 2) if we do, there's no reason to prefer one spelling over the

2378:. Lazaridis concluded that the prevalence of blond hair across ancient samples was "in reverse relationship to steppe ancestry, and thus inconsistent with the theory that steppe groups were spreading this set of phenotypes." 1015:

given is a singular outlier that ultimately might not have even been lighter in hair color and could very well represent foreign influence. It's a tenuous inclusion in absence of more relevant and representative information.

2333:. Gavin Evans analyzed several years of research on the origin of European blond hair, and concluded that the widespread presence of blond hair in Europe is largely due to the territorial expansions of the "all-conquering" 2774:

What is the problem with source from Dio Chrysostom? He clearly says that the epithet golden has nothing to do with Aphrodite's hair. Her hair was described in different colors afterwards, but Homer says nothing about it.

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Gavin Evans analyzed several years of research on the origin of European blond hair, and concluded that the widespread presence of blond hair in Europe is largely due to the territorial expansions of the "all-conquering"

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I'm afraid this is not how wikipedia works. We don't go based on our own interpretations of ancient sources, and especially what they indirectly may or may not imply. This is the textbook definition of original research

1002:

The first paragraph mentions blonds, but only as they exist in the South African European descended immigrants. While demographic change can surely be used to justify inclusion, why not have a section on North America?

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File:Hitler-Jugend Deutschlands Zukunft Ansichtskarte Postkarte Ludwig Hohlwein Aquarell NSDAP propaganda HJ Fahnen Postcard issued by Deutscher Jugendverlag Hitler Youth Germany's future No known copyright restrictions

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Third, even the new studies that are not secondary in nature are likely not fully accounting for synthetic hair color alteration, other than self-reporting, which will probably compromise the integrity of the results. -

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to depict gods in art like themselves and did not attach much importance to poetic descriptions. Otherwise, there would be word xanthos instead of melanos (black). But we've strayed from the subject. What about notes?

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is indeed an epithet of Aphrodite. Lastly and most importantly, my previous points still stand; the ancient text itself is a primary source and making our own interpretations based on it constitutes original research.

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However, reliable research has critically examined this notion, and found that heterosexual men generally rank blonde women as less attractive than women with darker hair colors, in spite of the purported hype.

3337:, the primary source proves that Pitman claim is baseless wishful thinking and is not worth mentioning. Do you have any ideas how to use this source without breaking the rules? Can we just quote it in a note? 3193:

not so.' And on this Sophocles, laughing at the Eretrian, said,—' Then, my friend, I suppose you are not pleased with the line in Simonides which is generally considered among the Greeks to be a beautiful one—

2947:"...to speak well of golden, violet-haired Cypris", this indirectly indicates that golden and hair are different things. I think you either need to remove that passage from the article, or add Dio's opinion. 1150:

I see, then the last bit should be changed to reflect that it is from a novel. However, the Fletcher reference that you have also been removing clearly refers to Alexander as blond, and that is not a novel.

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from Lasithi. These populations did not carry Ancient North Eurasian ancestry. Furthermore, Lazaridis noted that blond hair was virtually absent amongst the earliest steppe pastoralist groups such as the

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from Vai (2021), supplementary document 4 (in the excel file), and then combined that with the absence of Steppe ancestry from Schroder (2019). Yet these are two completely different samples and papers.

2726:'...folk tales from these regions tend to feature large numbers of blond protagonists, although these stories may not have been seen by their original tellers as idealizing blond hair. Furthermore...' 1597:

Well if neither is wrong and there unfortunately is no way for us to not exclude an entire sex, I think it would be logical to just go with whatever was first chosen similar to what is described in

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How about an image that is facing into the text? It seems quite jarring for the person in this prominently-placed image to be looking outside the page, which draws readers eyes in that direction.

3014:), then it is still Synesius and we can't attribute it to an existing Dio's work, the way you did, because this is source falsification. Secondly, the sentence doesn't say anything controversial; 1895:

women are actually considered more attractive, in general. This includes Swami's research. Wortham et al. found that blonde women were generally regarded as less attractive than brunette women.

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There is no , this is the author's speculation. Ion could have used xanthos, or both xanthos and black, but he only used black, so the author is probably wrong. But ok, it's irrelevant. I found

2337:; who carried the genes for blond hair. A review article published in 2020 analyzes fossil data from a wide variety of published sources. The authors affirm the previous statements, noting that 2005:

or using something similar. Of course a counterpoint of blondes being considered less attractive in other instances can also be added, as long as it is given the balance that it should have per

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I also wanted to apologize for bringing up something that wasn't really relevant at all. I've been feeling more pessimistic about the world lately, but there's no need to push that on others.

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If I'm honest, I personally don't really see anything wrong with this. The attention is drawn entirely on the blond hair. The text remains right in front of the reader's eyes.

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The secondary source that was originally used in the text (Pitman 2003) makes a clear connection between the epithet 'golden' and blond hair, as it is evident in pages 12-13:

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see how one's eyes can be "drawn" out of the article (whatever that means), when the text is right in the middle. That said, my comment isn't necessarily an "oppose" either.

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In fact, from what I can see the reference for the "golden" epithet included makes no direct mention in connection to hair color either, so I will also remove that for now.

494: 408: 2794:"golden", Hera "ox-eyed" and Thetis "silver-footed"; but in the case of Zeus he praises his hair most of all: The ambrosial locks of the king floated waving from his head." 3511: 1742:

This doesn’t seem to be the case in the US, from what I’ve noticed. “Blonde” is the more common spelling for males as well. “Blond” seems to be used only by older people.

923:. There is already a relevant linked wikimedia commons category linked at the end of the article if people really need to see endless pictures of people with blonde hair. 465: 222: 2313:, the classic European blond hair mutation, entered continental Europe by way of a massive population migration from the Eurasian steppe, by a people who had substantial 2247:, the classic European blond hair mutation, entered continental Europe by way of a massive population migration from the Eurasian steppe, by a people who had substantial 2075:

Yeah, that's true, also like everyone always said that we're dumb and like posh... so I guess it was like "they're easier to win their love"... Just my personal opinion.

794:. No objections to deleting the bit based on Coon, but just deleting the whole section seems a bit drastic, especially considering the presence of more modern sources. 3531: 1880:

Well, in this article, there is a notion that blonde women have been considered especially attractive, particularly during the Middle Ages, but also in modern times.

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Apologies, yes you did not write that section. The truth however is that the quote on Alexander was is in fact not written by scholar, it is from a Willa Cather novel.

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However, there is a genetic basis for red (and blond) hair in Amerindians; there's plenty of studies published about their notable frequency of albinism, particularly

3551: 2057:. As you said, the main issue was the amount of content specifically about attractiveness. A succinct summary avoids giving the topic too much weight on the article. 1487:

instances of "blonde/blond" with "fair-haired" or something, but this also is no good. Using say "blonx" on the example of "Latinx" would be our coining, not allowed.

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2. The presence of the KITLG pre-allele in a single ANE sample does not necessarily indicate its origin in the ANE population. It is true that the oldest example of

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But since there's no favoritism here, I see no reason to not do as the world does, to avoid surprising and maybe annoying some percentage of readers, to no benefit.

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TylerBurden's blanket revision of my contributions undid improvements that weren't related to the topic of blonde women's attractiveness in contemporary society.

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In this article it said Rome had control over West Germany in the 1st century. That is totally incorrect. Rome never crossed the Rhine !! They were not able to !!

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West Asian neolithic farmers and Ancient North Eurasians in order for members of the Globular Amphora Culture to have the G allele. Therefore, blonde hair

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that editors generally should not blanket-revert content that is not disruptive. That in of itself is disruptive and causes the other editor inconvenience.

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A review article published in 2020 analyzes fossil data from a wide variety of published sources. The authors affirm the previous statements, noting that

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Besides, counting the percentage of blond people in a given population is not the sort of research that is easily made obsolete by more modern findings.

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The quote "rugged, blond good looks" that is used by Joseph L. Coulombe comes from the book Alexander’s Bridge by Willa Cather, and is in fact fiction.

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I don't make the wikipedia rules. I already told you that the sentence in question says nothing controversial, but merely that Aphrodite's epithet was

3521: 499: 2009:, that seems only natural, but this topic in general shouldn't be this big of a portion on an article meant to be about blond hair color in general. 602: 556: 3501: 1263:

and sometimes we don't (eg we don't write "December 8th" even if all our sources do), but what the outside world does is usually an important point.

370: 85: 564: 2943:, Pitman has no evidence and is irrelevant. Ancient source Dio Chrysostom confirms that epithet golden does not refer to hair. Also Bacchylides 3541: 3526: 592: 2109:) has been significantly challenged by more recent research papers and sequencing. This section should be updated for the following reasons: 1613:(as said above, one assumption replacing another one isn't in my opinion) I will restore the consistent usage of the article title variation. 2922: 2129:

population did not carry steppe related ancestry . Blond hair was again inferred in Anatolian Neolithic/Early European Farmers, notably the

1781: 1763: 346: 3546: 30: 2966:). In wikipedia we use secondary sources where modern authors analyze and evaluate the ancient text. Ancient authors are primary sources ( 2797:

Your interpretation (which is fine) is what you've added to the article, the source does not explicitly support such definitive wording.

1840: 560: 3516: 2568: 1817: 1743: 99: 3496: 1905:"Furthermore, most men do not personally prefer the very thin, blonde, blue-eyed, large-busted image of many female fashion models." 2478:

Neither reference says anything about the origin of blond hair, or of Ancient North Eurasians. It appears that Noleb has taken the

764:. Another source is ladepeche.fr, a regional tabloid. I wanted to delete all of this, but figured I would be flagged for being too 104: 20: 2385:

found that all tested individuals carried the mutated allele rs12821256 of the KITLG gene encoding for blond hair. Notably, these

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files. The relevant Documents are 01 and 05. There's nothing about anything like what Noleb has tried to add to the article.

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was brought to Europe with steppe pastoralists because without considering all genetic mutations encoding for this trait.

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This section contains outdated information. Specifically, the idea that the KITLG allele for blond hair originated in ANE (

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is a quite respectable publication. I hope the 'tabloid'-bit refers to format only, because it does not at all qualify as

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rs12821256. Even if steppe pastoralists did carry rs12821256 into Europe and elsewhere, we cannot in good faith say that

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of North and Central Europe, the Neolithic of Anatolia (Turkey) at Barcın, Chalcolithic Southeastern Europe (Romania at

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from Lasithi . Thus, blonde hair was already present in the European continent before the arrival of steppe groups.

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blonde women in the fashion industry. They suggest that this may explain why brunette women are generally preferred.

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As to the article title, OK let's change that too. Why should we assume or imply that the article is only about men?

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The South African material is unsourced and hardly notable for inclusion otherwise, so I think it should be removed.

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study carried out by researchers at the L'oreal institute, but the article is semi-protected and my account is new.

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The precise genetic origin and spread of blond hair into its present-day distribution is a topic of debate amongst

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steppe pastoralists likely caused the "rapid selective sweep in European populations toward light skin and hair."

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steppe pastoralists likely caused the "rapid selective sweep in European populations toward light skin and hair."

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In my opinion, the most relevant images (because of their variety and illustrative purpose to the article) are:

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I believe it is extremely relevant to include the above information in order to be objective and comprehensive.

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I removed a great deal of content from this article that does not verify. For example, I removed the claim that

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The Europe section is based almost entirely on 19th and early 20th century sources, including the controversial

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So my thoughts on your original question is that there isn't a good reason not to do what you were suggesting.

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The last bit should be removed in its entirety, the section is about historical perceptions in ancient Greece.

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Noleb does this to make a point that is stated by neither paper. Which means they've breached the guidelines

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I think that you need to address the length of that quote. It is likely a copyright violation at that length.

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you blanket reverted me on , with the explanation that the article "is not a competition of attractiveness".

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cultures, but nominally higher in later steppe groups possessing Early European Farmer ancestry such as the

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to push their POV against the hypothesis that thers12821256_G allele is from the Ancient North Eurasians.

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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I am requesting a simple grammar edit to this portion of the Blond article under "Medieval Europe" --

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in rosy-coloured paint he would make his hands like those of a purple-dyer, and not of a pretty woman.

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Let me know if you think this is a good compromise. The same thing would be done to the Asia content.

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I believe this could work. I added all the possible interpretations in a note, next to the sentence.

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did not possess ancestry from Indo-European steppe pastoralists, and therefore lacked ancestry from

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And in Central Asia, which was colonized by Russians, blonde women are considered unattractive and

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but this looks unnecessary at glance to me, especially since the article name itself uses "blond".

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If you have competing sources please share them; otherwise this seems to be original research. -

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is portrayed as blonde in medieval Gothic paintings, which was cited to Schiller pp. 155-158.

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her rippling blonde hair. 'Golden' was the master epithet of Aphrodite in all of Homer's work.

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The article says "parts of western Germany". Parts of western Germany are west of the Rhine.

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The article itself uses blonde in some application referring to female persons and goddess.

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Only Italy,France,Portuagal are mentioned ,where the blond people popualtion is the lowest.

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Yes, chrysokomas obviously described blond hair since it literally means 'golden hair' (a

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If the origin of the quote itself is from Synesius' work (when looking I found it in the

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a male, but we'll ignore that and promote them to male, as a favor". Not a good look IMO.

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as it's relevant to the text about the genetic mutation that causes blondness in Oceania

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adjective for all applications: She has blond hair. Use blonde as a noun for females.”

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ROME NEVER CROSSED THE RHINE. THIS ARTILCLE IMPLIES THAT. THAT IS INCORRECT BY 100 %

1801: 1721: 1684: 1102:, second, I didn't add these references, everything on the article is not written in 761: 2497: 2358: 2139: 1393:

No objections being raised yet, I'll make the change, with the Ngram as a support.

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Yet, as I explained in my edit summary with a URL link, Schiller pages 155-158,

2196:"Genetics of Blond Hair" Section is Now Outdated and Lacks Relevant Information 2162: 2150: 2097:"Genetics of Blond Hair" Section is Now Outdated and Lacks Relevant Information 313: 292: 2318: 2258: 956:

because there's a whole section that's essentially devoted to Nazi propaganda.

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This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the

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Please see my above post for an explanation of the following edits.

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Knowledge (XXG):Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 27 § Ice Blonde

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File:Anonymous Ferdinand of Austria in Hungarian costume (detail).jpg

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I think that seems reasonable if that is the general consensus in

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Why there is no mention of blond people in other European Regions?

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1. Alleles for blond hair have been found in several populations

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W:NPOV issues with regard to the attractiveness of blonde women

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images in this article. There doesn't need to be that many per

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tags on this page, but the references will not show without a

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that its still ongoing, whether we like it or not. We don't

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My edit was reverted, so I figured we should discuss this.

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Yeah, that's pretty true. I just wanted to say that. Bye.

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I can think of several reasons not to include the content:

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What you added: "Although it's not referring to her hair"

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ancestry. Ancient North Eurasian admixture is present in

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My understanding is that it's mostly a tradition thing.

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First of all, these comments are clearly a violation of

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because it shows a man with blond hair and a blond beard

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I'm sure it is a tradition and a holdover, but it says

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found mostly in different contexts, and not for hair.

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said that the hundreds of millions of copies of this

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said that the hundreds of millions of copies of this

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to determine whether its use and function meets the

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No no it's fine, you weren't abrasive in the least.

436:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 341:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 174: 2556: 2554: 1980:Schiller doesn't say anywhere that Mary was blonde 1223:changes in regards to gender-neutral language... 3170:techniqes) it didn't mean they believed it was. 1272:As to to gender-neutral language, I get it, but 549:, a project that provides a central approach to 33:for general discussion of the article's subject. 2116:harboring ANE/WSH ancestry. Individuals of the 1928:Clearly, blonde women are considered downright 1579:of course, no problem. Maybe we should have an 2832:For accuracy, the primary meaning of the word 2607: 2605: 1427:has "blond man" and "blonde woman". OK so far. 555:-related subjects on Knowledge (XXG). Help us 2681:Semi-protected edit request on 13 August 2024 1701:Is this true? I can see how it would be, but 1037:which is associated with non-rufous red hair. 739:This page has archives. Sections older than 450:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Molecular Biology 8: 2911:essay, from a much later period, similar to 2582: 2580: 1964:Blanket reverting of non-disruptive content 3552:Pages in the Knowledge (XXG) Top 25 Report 511: 392: 287: 3512:Low-importance Molecular Biology articles 3232:, since hair couldn't be made of literal 2629: 2612:Carlberg, Carsten; Hanel, Andrea (2020). 1705:says different, for people (not things). 2426:But likely a good edit, other than that. 2281:; who carried the genes for blond hair. 1010:Could the section be amended to include 3532:All WikiProject Molecular Biology pages 2593:was invoked but never defined (see the 2542:was invoked but never defined (see the 2525: 1837:2600:8800:8692:4200:C1A7:821C:7FF7:9DA2 513: 394: 289: 259: 2614:"Skin colour and vitamin D: An update" 2469:ancestry from Ancient North Eurasians. 2034: 1904: 1811:“Blonde” is also used for both genders 1219:If you're interested in proposing any 749:when more than 4 sections are present. 453:Template:WikiProject Molecular Biology 2381:A 2019 study examining the neolithic 1189:Should we be using "blond" for women? 1060:Alexander the Great and the Ptolemies 7: 3198:The maid pour'd forth a gentle voice 1110:is removing the content on basis of 430:This article is within the scope of 335:This article is within the scope of 3465: 2585: 2534: 2105:) and spread into Europe with WSH ( 841:from blonder countries like Poland. 633:. The week in which this happened: 355:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Fashion 278:It is of interest to the following 23:for discussing improvements to the 3507:C-Class Molecular Biology articles 2118:neolithic Globular Amphora culture 14: 2168:blond hair as a general phenotype 1985:Please respect the suggestion at 1575:You are free to roll it back per 743:may be automatically archived by 577:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Color 50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome! 3522:Low-importance Genetics articles 2742: 2688: 2443: 2203: 2174:notably from Isof Lazaridis and 1923:denied in the Asian beauty ideal 1769: 655: 622: 536: 515: 423: 396: 322: 312: 291: 260: 229: 45:Click here to start a new topic. 3502:Mid-importance fashion articles 3037:, Synesius simply quoted Dio's 1919:cannot represent a beauty ideal 1794:until a consensus is reached. 1131:Here, you may read it yourself. 943:because it shows baby blondness 597:This article has been rated as 470:This article has been rated as 375:This article has been rated as 3347:12:14, 14 September 2024 (UTC) 2974:is merely a response to Dio's 2564:. Quercus. 2018. pp. 124–125. 2361:of the Levant (Israel), and a 2142:of the Levant (Israel), and a 1: 3542:Low-importance color articles 3527:WikiProject Genetics articles 2085:20:39, 29 February 2024 (UTC) 2067:18:33, 29 February 2024 (UTC) 2049:10:44, 17 February 2024 (UTC) 2019:21:07, 16 February 2024 (UTC) 1999:07:01, 16 February 2024 (UTC) 1958:18:52, 28 February 2024 (UTC) 1943:07:01, 16 February 2024 (UTC) 1826:06:09, 6 September 2023 (UTC) 1752:06:15, 6 September 2023 (UTC) 1662:02:38, 10 November 2023 (UTC) 1583:on the matter, I don't know. 1069:showing them with dark hair. 1054:15:32, 13 February 2023 (UTC) 1025:06:11, 13 February 2023 (UTC) 543:This article is supported by 492:This article is supported by 444:and see a list of open tasks. 433:WikiProject Molecular Biology 349:and see a list of open tasks. 42:Put new text under old text. 3263:And note by the Loeb Editor: 3161:The source doesn't say that 1910:in its previous state had a 1860:06:12, 10 October 2023 (UTC) 1845:04:54, 10 October 2023 (UTC) 988:23:11, 2 February 2023 (UTC) 972:15:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC) 947:File:Blonde girl Vanuatu.jpg 895:20:27, 15 January 2024 (UTC) 818:15:44, 1 February 2022 (UTC) 804:15:39, 1 February 2022 (UTC) 779:20:32, 30 January 2022 (UTC) 358:Template:WikiProject Fashion 3547:All WikiProject Color pages 3455:13:43, 25 August 2024 (UTC) 3440:13:14, 25 August 2024 (UTC) 3422:13:04, 25 August 2024 (UTC) 3407:12:34, 25 August 2024 (UTC) 3329:13:17, 29 August 2024 (UTC) 3311:13:11, 29 August 2024 (UTC) 3293:11:58, 29 August 2024 (UTC) 3279:14:57, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 3246:22:08, 27 August 2024 (UTC) 3224:20:12, 27 August 2024 (UTC) 3180:18:27, 27 August 2024 (UTC) 3157:16:06, 27 August 2024 (UTC) 3135:12:53, 27 August 2024 (UTC) 3120:11:54, 27 August 2024 (UTC) 3102:11:04, 27 August 2024 (UTC) 3084:22:23, 26 August 2024 (UTC) 3066:21:05, 26 August 2024 (UTC) 3051:20:24, 26 August 2024 (UTC) 3029:19:42, 26 August 2024 (UTC) 3006:19:17, 26 August 2024 (UTC) 2988:12:03, 26 August 2024 (UTC) 2957:22:24, 25 August 2024 (UTC) 2935:14:56, 25 August 2024 (UTC) 2907:source, and particulalry a 2878:22:14, 25 August 2024 (UTC) 2847:12:26, 25 August 2024 (UTC) 2828:21:09, 19 August 2024 (UTC) 2810:19:16, 19 August 2024 (UTC) 2785:21:03, 18 August 2024 (UTC) 2760:02:17, 13 August 2024 (UTC) 2736:00:51, 13 August 2024 (UTC) 2711:to reactivate your request. 2699:has been answered. Set the 2226:to reactivate your request. 2214:has been answered. Set the 1135:https://imgur.com/a/OCRPxfS 901:Black and white photograph? 3568: 3297:Thank you. Can I also add 3203:From out her purple mouth. 2855:, her epithet (golden) is 2723:I believe it should be -- 2405:03:31, 18 March 2024 (UTC) 1259:to follow our sources for 1175:22:59, 27 March 2023 (UTC) 1161:12:29, 27 March 2023 (UTC) 1146:19:24, 24 March 2023 (UTC) 1124:18:33, 24 March 2023 (UTC) 1094:17:39, 23 March 2023 (UTC) 1079:17:09, 23 March 2023 (UTC) 874:23:46, 1 August 2022 (UTC) 603:project's importance scale 580:Template:WikiProject Color 456:Molecular Biology articles 381:project's importance scale 3517:C-Class Genetics articles 3188:. Ion of Chios passage is 2191:06:56, 6 March 2024 (UTC) 1912:non-neutral point of view 1734:12:43, 26 June 2023 (UTC) 1715:08:37, 26 June 2023 (UTC) 1697:14:55, 22 June 2023 (UTC) 935:File:Lars-Unnerstall2.jpg 859:19:00, 17 July 2022 (UTC) 833:17:10, 12 June 2022 (UTC) 596: 531: 491: 469: 418: 374: 307: 286: 80:Be welcoming to newcomers 3497:C-Class fashion articles 2618:Experimental Dermatology 2462:23:20, 20 May 2024 (UTC) 2383:Globular Amphora Culture 2257:admixture is present in 1933:research to the reader. 1806:14:04, 27 May 2023 (UTC) 1782:redirects for discussion 1764:Redirects for discussion 1637:17:07, 1 June 2023 (UTC) 1627:Yeah that's reasonable. 1623:11:21, 1 June 2023 (UTC) 1593:11:17, 31 May 2023 (UTC) 1422:10:00, 31 May 2023 (UTC) 1403:23:53, 30 May 2023 (UTC) 1389:05:13, 28 May 2023 (UTC) 1375:02:52, 28 May 2023 (UTC) 1351:20:31, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 1331:20:27, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 1310:20:19, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 1240:12:23, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 1204:04:13, 22 May 2023 (UTC) 2540:Oxford University Press 2502:Supplementary Materials 2438:22:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC) 2422:22:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC) 2391:Ancient North Eurasians 2077:J. G. is a blonde freak 1950:J. G. is a blonde freak 1274:in this particular case 784:I hate to nitpick, but 495:the Genetics task force 3537:C-Class color articles 2387:Early European Farmers 2351:Linear Pottery Culture 2339:Ancient North Eurasian 2335:Western Steppe Herders 2315:Ancient North Eurasian 2300:population geneticists 2286:Ancient North Eurasian 2279:Western Steppe Herders 2255:Ancient North Eurasian 2249:Ancient North Eurasian 2131:Linear Pottery Culture 2107:western steppe herders 2103:Ancient North Eurasian 845:whatever he perceived. 746:Lowercase sigmabot III 488: 268:This article is rated 75:avoid personal attacks 2500:paper, including the 2480:pigmentation SNP data 2127:Early European Farmer 978:reason to remove it. 567:standards; visit the 487: 272:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 223:Auto-archiving period 100:Neutral point of view 3471:<ref group=a: --> 3301:as a second source? 3163:chrysee/ chrysokomas 2589:The named reference 2538:The named reference 2331:ancient DNA analysis 2271:ancient DNA analysis 1925:(Lundstrom, 2014). 105:No original research 3475:{{reflist|group=a}} 2972:Eulogy of Balndness 2891:On the other hand, 2452:without the quote. 2376:Bell Beaker Culture 1786:redirect guidelines 1780:has been listed at 638:July 24 to 30, 2016 338:WikiProject Fashion 3477:template (see the 3317:Economicum of hair 3254:in Dio Chrysostom: 3012:Eulogy of Baldness 2918:Eulogy of Baldness 2752:Hyphenation Expert 2506:Red Book Librarian 2120:are predicted via 2041:Red Book Librarian 1991:Red Book Librarian 1935:Red Book Librarian 921:MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE 915:There are already 792:tabloid journalism 787:La Dépêche du Midi 489: 274:content assessment 86:dispute resolution 47: 2715: 2714: 2631:10.1111/exd.14142 2230: 2229: 2163:number of alleles 2153:was found in the 2151:KITLG rs12821256 2122:HIrisPlex-S panel 866:Madalena NovaLima 825:Madalena NovaLima 753: 752: 718: 717: 647: 646: 617: 616: 613: 612: 609: 608: 571:for more details. 546:WikiProject Color 510: 509: 506: 505: 447:Molecular Biology 438:Molecular Biology 404:Molecular Biology 391: 390: 387: 386: 254: 253: 66:Assume good faith 43: 3559: 3484: 3483: 3482: 3476: 3472: 3426:"Honesty is the 3039:Encomium on hair 2890: 2750: 2746: 2745: 2706: 2702: 2692: 2691: 2685: 2673: 2669: 2663: 2659: 2653: 2649: 2643: 2642: 2633: 2609: 2600: 2599: 2598: 2592: 2584: 2575: 2574: 2558: 2549: 2548: 2547: 2541: 2533: 2451: 2447: 2446: 2221: 2217: 2207: 2206: 2200: 2029: 1888:V. 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