Talk:Gender - Knowledge

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but that is not the same as reliable sources indicating organism-based definitions are intended by the use of those terms. There have been past discussions about the use of terminology, and how this is not simply a matter of counting usage of terms that may be used differently over time and across academic disciplines; how the terms are used and discussed matters more than the mere use of the word.

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article.And I think the wikilink content matters a lot, particularly in this contentious topic area; for example, your proposed change seems to make a major change to the article, because of the content of the organism-focused wikilinks. I do not think suggesting this does not matter is an adequate justification for inclusion - for example, we typically

1035: 3467:, when Lisa said "These dolls are sexist" and the other girls laughed and said "Lisa said a dirty word!" As Haig writes, in and around 2003, the words were functionally interchangeable. I like that the article shows that the FDA changed its in-house definition of the term more than once. We could use a few examples from outside the U.S. 2871:; those articles, while undoubtedly important, are not as important as citations from reliable sources. Therefore, we should consider what reliable sources say, more than any wikilink issues that you point out; the former is necessary for this article - the wikilink issues are problems for the "male" and "female" articles. 2670:, we are looking to summarize the article, according to reliable sources. Discussion about the lead ideally reflects the article contents and its sources. The proposed idea seems to continue to suggest a fundamental change to the first sentence of the lead that does not seem to reflect the article and its sources. 2893:

wikilinks. This article content and supporting sources do not appear to support broadly introducing this article topic with those article links; the wikilinks do not broadly reflect what appears to be intended by this article and its sources (similar to the guidance I noted about quotes from speakers

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articles being focused on organisms generally. If you are not trying to replace the meaning of gender with organism-based definitions, then perhaps you can review the past discussions about the lead, the differences in the wikilinked articles, this article and its sources, and further reflect on your

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This article has changed a lot since I first started working on it. Back then "gender" was the most common way to refer to whether any organism, human or otherwise, was male or female. And by "most common," I mean "in the English language overall," not "in the social sciences as written in English."

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How to word statements like this one, as far as whether to write them using nouns like "men and women" or adjectives like "masculine and feminine" or "male and female", has been discussed many times (and in relation to many articles); I see that many of the most relevant past discussions (about this

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Furthermore, the guideline you linked to refers to direct quotations from speakers. The opening line isn't directly quoting anyone. Hypothetically, if 100% of sources described gender in relation to male and female, but the articles on male and female were (as they are currently) organism-based (and

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biological, whereas the wikilinks for male and female ((initially)) refer to that of organisms? I don't think it's particularly important that the wikilink must adhere strictly to male and female genders, only that "male" and "female" are elaborated upon; they can be referred to as either genders or

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This seems to be an attempt to tally usage without an in-depth look at meaning and sources, and does not seem to help support removal of human-focused wikilinks and replacement with organism-focused wikilinks. Just because 'male' and 'female' terminology is used, it does not mean (nor does it appear

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wikilinks seems to suggest making a fundamental and unsupported change the article, but the content and sources in this article do not seem to support using articles about organisms generally to broadly introduce the concept of gender.Also, the words 'male' and 'female' may be used by some sources,

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We're now having a split discussion in two sections, which probably is not helping readability, including for anyone else trying to follow along or participate. From my view, this is ultimately about the sources, and how the sources use the terminology, not which terminology is 'outnumbered' in the

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The fact that the wikilinks are organism-focused does not matter whatsoever, so long as we are unambiguous that this article is employing "male" and "female" in the sense of gender, which an abundantly sourced concept, including in this very article. "Man" and "woman", as I have said previously, is

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The picture of a naked man abd a naked woman illustrate human sexes. It does not illustrate their genders (which as drawings they can't have). A depiction of human genders would need to involve some element of how two people behave as society provides for them to act according to their sexes. For

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children, whereas the most cited source in favour of the man/woman variation is the WHO, which includes "boys and girls". I don't intend on merely counting sources, only summarising the most reliable sources, considering which sources are reliable - and which are not -, in relation to what gender

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Honestly, what I think we should do is to summarise as many sources as possible describing gender as relating to a) men / women, b) male / female, and c) masculine / feminine (although more so under "gender expression"). There are admittedly sources like the WHO that employ men / women (alongside

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As the article specifies the social, psychological (etc.) aspects of male/female, I therefore think it can't be ambiguous for male/female to be used; however, the use of the word "including" which you support creates significant ambiguity, as I have said above, as it does not a) actually define

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Indeed. The opening is very incoherent. Are "masculine" and "feminine" genders, and not "man or woman" as described? The words man and woman relate to the sex of a person. If gender is an abstract notion of the social aspects of beinga. man or a woman then to say men and woman are genders is a

2294:, which are articles predominantly about organisms generally. The first sentence was developed after extensive discussion and is also written broadly, i.e. uses the word "including", so it is not an exclusive statement. The first sentence is also not expected to include every detail (see e.g. 2346:"boys and girls"), as well as a significant amount of sources that employ "male and female" in defining gender. So I don't think this is set in stone yet, either my proposal for the usage of male/female, nor the current men/women wording. I.e., I think this must be gauged by summary. 3212:. A broad introduction in the first sentence (which has previously been extensively discussed and developed by consensus), followed by further relevant information that expands on the broad introduction seems to generally reflect the guideline, article contents, and sources. 2894:- we would not add wikilinks to quotes from speakers unless clearly intended, so it also does not seem appropriate to do this for entire articles, unless the entire article clearly intends to use a predominantly organism-based definition of gender, similar to e.g. 2697:

Gender difference is merely a construct of society used to enforce the distinctions made between what is assumed to be female and male, and allow for the domination of masculinity over femininity through the attribution of specific gender-related characteristics.

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articles both include human children, so the concern expressed about not including children in the first sentence seems addressed by the lead formed by consensus after extensive discussion. This is an article about gender; your proposal in the context of the

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In contemporary times, most literature and institutions that are concerned with women's role in development incorporate a GAD perspective, with the United Nations taking the lead of mainstreaming the GAD approach through its system and development policies.

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were gender is equated with a) male and female etc., and where it is with b) "man and woman, etc.". You claimed that the former "does not seem to reflect the article and its sources", when, just for example, its usage quite clearly outnumbers the latter.

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Later, in 2011, the FDA reversed its position and began using sex as the biological classification and gender as "a person's self-representation as male or female, or how that person is responded to by social institutions based on the individual's gender

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Don't particularly intend on starting a mess of a conversation again, but it's ironic that you just defined "man" and "woman" in relation to the male and female genders, ("nouns for all humans of the male and female genders"), which is my exact point.

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The Etymology and usage section has a subsection on "Distinct from 'sex'" and "As grammatical category." It occurred today that it would be good to organize the content we currently have into a section "As synonym for 'sex.'" It strikes me as good

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The area of contention is in defining and / or introducing what "gender" is. The mention of boys and girls would be just as important as man/woman in the first, defining sentence, as that is also how reliable sources have defined it.

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aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Knowledge. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the

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in 2013 Q3. Further details were available on the "Education Program:Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies/Gender and International Affairs (Fall 2013)" page, which is now unavailable on the

2198:. I honestly think "man, woman" in this article should simply change to male and female, as it is clear that the gender-binary refers most commonly to male-female, masculine-feminine, and not man-woman. One can 2701:

Contemporary sociological reference to male and female gender roles typically uses masculinities and femininities in the plural rather than singular, suggesting diversity both within cultures as well as across

2242:, this article specifically refers to the social, psychological etc. nature of being male, therefore unambiguously ruling out male (as in gender) as being biological. (Gender is described as the socialised 155: 3627: 2694:

gender role that exists more in the middle of the continuum between the feminine and masculine polarity. For example, the Hawaiian māhū, who occupy "a place in the middle" between male and female,

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articles go beyond organisms in the lede; in fact in the second paragraph: "In humans, the word male can also be used to refer to gender, in the social sense of gender role or gender identity..."

2250:- let alone describing - gender in relation to "man or woman" is even more ambiguous, as that will perhaps imply that "man" and "woman" are genders, but that is not clear, not elaborated upon. 576: 3537: 679: 3622: 1356: 3587: 976: 966: 2472:(which would perhaps initially imply sex, if one is unaware), only with notes that say that "male"/"female" can refer to either sex or gender. That is what I have suggested below. 1146: 1008: 3295:

reification and a fallacy. Need a thorough re-work to set out clearly if gender is an abstract property of social relationships or if it is a proprty of individuals - like sex.

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on Knowledge. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the

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of sex). Thirdly, "male" and "female" are very commonly used to describe the gender binary, more often than man/woman: e.g., Fourth, as I stated in February,

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Also, with respect, I disagree with your initial comment months ago; "Doesn't help that our article Male is about sperm-producing organisms" (arguing against

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dichotomy as a "misconception". I'm in favor of stylistic changes which enhance inclusivity wrt sex/gender, but this is not a hard rule to be followed. –

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Do not overload the first sentence by describing everything notable about the subject; instead, spread the relevant information out over the entire lead

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article ledes (articles about adults of male and female genders linking to articles predominantly about male and female sex). That's my two last cents.

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I.e., why does the sentence employ "man" and "woman" instead of "male" and "female", which are the terms generally used regarding the gender binary?

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in there too if Zilch-nada really believes it's such a glaring omission, but seems unnecessary (and I can't imagine a non-clunky version of that

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The lead reflects the contents of the article, and there does not appear to be support in sources nor the article to alter the first sentence to

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procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been

2510:. A note does not seem needed when we can have a lead that reflects the article and its reliable sources, and when the human-focused wikilinks 569: 2220:

Additionally, I'm sure you'd agree that there is ambiguity in the current wording; it is unclear whether or not "man" and "woman" are genders

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The first sentence would be less than a line long if we included "boys and girls" as the WHO do. How on Earth is that over-cluttered? Via

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How does it not reflect? "Woman" is mentioned a mere 19 times; "female" is mentioned 58 times. Examples within the very article include:

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I am not defining male and female in relation to organisms, only to gender, as that is what this article is. By analogy, the articles on

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gender role as a man or a woman in society varies cross-culturally according to what things are considered to be masculine or feminine.

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I have made the change to the article with my reasoning in the edit summary. I don't think (as I mentioned last month) that "man" more

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Male/Female is used for Sex. Man/Woman is used for Gender when it comes to specificity though in colloquial usage both are exchanged.

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Please explain - as you reverted my edit - why you think "man"/"woman" is more suitable than "male"/"female" in defining gender.

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The wikilinks issue is a problem for different articles, not this one. I am assuming you therefore object to the style of the

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Also, can you please answer my question from earlier about wikilinks: I am assuming you therefore object to the style of the

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If no, then that would imply that this is a flaw in Knowledge's own articles; specifically a different article, the ones on

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agreed that the term gender could be properly applied only to humans, because it involves one's self-concept as man or woman

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had started to be used more interchangeably, and 2) most human societies had evolved far beyond the hunter/gatherer stage.

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both a) vague (are they genders?) and b) not broad enough (as the gender binary is most commonly described as male-female,

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seems to achieve the result, even if that is not the intent, and that seems to be the problematic alteration according to

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So what? Those are different articles, aren't they? What matter's is what is in the sentence itself, and that ambiguously

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The rise of criticism against the WID approach led to the emergence of a new theory, that of Women and Development (WAD).

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instance, the male might be holding a hunting weapon appropriate for big game, and the female might be weaving a basket.

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The page should be updated to change usage of Male/Female to Man/Woman and similar for the page on Sex for consistency.

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sexes in different contexts: the note added would clarify that here, just as it would at the "man" and "woman" articles.

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is about sperm-producing organisms, something which has given gender-related articles immense strife over the years. –

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to mean based on these unsourced quotes) that we should be using wikilinks that are written broadly about organisms.

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includes the social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of being male, female, or other gender identity"

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In humans, the word male can also be used to refer to gender, in the social sense of gender role or gender identity

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socially constructed" aspects of male–female differences (gender) from "biologically determined" aspects (sex)."

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are pretty recognizable as collective nouns for all humans of the male and female genders, regardless of age. –

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particular article) have been linked above. Each option has issues, but in this case and context, "being a

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On the other hand, there are perhaps only 2 references of gender specifically to men/women in the article:

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may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the

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There has also been extensive discussion about when and how to use dictionary definitions; according to

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therefore supposedly problematic), would you even then support this article using "male" and "female"?

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social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of being male, female, or other gender identity

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Why exclude boys and girls from the lede then? Their mentions are sourced by the WHO, for instance?

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United Nations. Office of the Special Adviser on Gender Issues, & Advancement of Women (2002).

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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are used interchangeably for both sex and gender in English, even in formal/academic use. The

2323:"; but they are also generally used regarding gender; similar to what you said, not exclusive. 2177: 2028: 1953: 1040: 804: 783: 608: 533: 177: 53: 2172:" which could be confused with "being assigned male at birth". Doesn't help that our article 2168:..." more clearly communicates "embodying the male gender" and is less ambiguous than "being 657: 641: 257: 3495: 3468: 3402: 3363: 3348: 3273: 3243: 3205: 3192: 3177: 3146: 3134: 3100: 3070: 3026: 2925: 2872: 2846: 2805: 2736: 2707: 2653: 2538: 2473: 2420: 2347: 2332: 2273: 2251: 2221: 2207: 2146:

You may wish to review past discussions of the lead, which are collected and linked here:

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I think I have said more than enough to express my objection to the proposed use of the

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Boys and girls are included in the lead, currently mentioned in the third sentence

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as that clearly excludes boys. Furthermore, "male", while it may redirect to the

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Semiotics aside, a good reason to prefer the current phrasing is that "being a

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in their definitions, if man and woman are socially constructed,

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gender, and b) say whether or not "man" and "woman" are genders.

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do not wikilink to concepts a speaker does not clearly intend

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Subsections - put non-social-science meaning with the others

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should be reserved strictly for gender, but the adjectives

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Another editor in this discussion also commented about the

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which are articles predominantly about organisms generally

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Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the

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Mid-importance social and political philosophy articles

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The man and woman articles both include human children

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of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

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Social and political philosophy task force articles

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(as you say that the wikilinks for 2518:seem to fit as part of a broad introduction. 176: 8: 2799:And I am not merely tallying, but analysing 951:Knowledge:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality 3593:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality articles 954:Template:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality 3440:bearing that image launched, 1) The terms 3023:For clarity, I do prefer the current text 2486:The use of the organism-focused wikilinks 2052: 1984: 1407: 1396: 1248: 1207: 1101: 988: 883: 778: 527:Unknown-importance Gender studies articles 510:Here are some tasks awaiting attention: 488: 402: 312: 3528:Knowledge vital articles in Everyday life 2316:I have two things to comment upon there: 1225:Social sciences and society good articles 757:Gender studies articles needing attention 602:Gender studies articles needing infoboxes 3242:(as opposed to male/female) definition. 3176:The first sentence, as the WHO puts it? 2109:The opening sentence isn't quite clear: 2095:. New York: United Nations Publications. 1635:Social construction of gender hypotheses 3583:B-Class Sexology and sexuality articles 3543:B-Class vital articles in Everyday life 3315: 2999:Radical Copyeditor's Editor Style Guide 2624: 2494:to replace the human-focused wikilinks 2078: 2010: 1399: 990: 885: 780: 404: 314: 273: 3563:Top-importance Gender studies articles 3234:times, also in context in relation to 3209: 3030:. I'm open to proposals which include 2590: 2582: 2412: 2408: 2392: 2320: 2235: 2199: 2195: 2110: 1062:about philosophy content on Knowledge. 2973:This is not the case. It's true that 1534:Social assignment and gender fluidity 7: 2731:And the first one refers to "gender 1961: 1046:This article is within the scope of 931:This article is within the scope of 826:This article is within the scope of 455:Knowledge:WikiProject Gender studies 3568:WikiProject Gender studies articles 3378:from the original on 6 January 2023 1329:This article was the subject of an 458:Template:WikiProject Gender studies 25:for discussing improvements to the 3603:Mid-importance Philosophy articles 1621:Feminist theory and gender studies 934:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality 523:Unassessed Gender studies articles 383:Knowledge:WikiProject LGBT studies 14: 3578:Top-importance sociology articles 3553:WikiProject LGBT studies articles 666:Women's education in Saudi Arabia 386:Template:WikiProject LGBT studies 3523:Knowledge level-3 vital articles 2407:Please explain what you mean by 2089:Gender Mainstreaming an Overview 1945: 1520:Gender identity and gender roles 1388: 1343: 1322: 1211: 1169: 1068:Knowledge:WikiProject Philosophy 1033: 1023: 992: 918: 908: 887: 813: 803: 782: 501: 427: 406: 344: 334: 316: 283: 274: 243: 47:Click here to start a new topic. 3558:B-Class Gender studies articles 1952:This article was nominated for 1147:Social and political philosophy 1088:This article has been rated as 1071:Template:WikiProject Philosophy 971:This article has been rated as 957:Sexology and sexuality articles 866:This article has been rated as 846:Knowledge:WikiProject Sociology 475:This article has been rated as 357:This article is of interest to 3613:Mid-importance ethics articles 3533:B-Class level-3 vital articles 3403:Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary 3349:Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary 2573:What if, like the articles on 2464:also employ the defining term 1579:Measurement of gender identity 849:Template:WikiProject Sociology 303:It is of interest to multiple 1: 3364:"Meaning of "man" in English" 3042:text). As in the WHO source, 3025:being a man, woman, or other 2230:11:12, 10 February 2024 (UTC) 2216:11:11, 10 February 2024 (UTC) 2021:Women, Gender and Development 1376:contentious topics procedures 1182:for general discussion about 945:and see a list of open tasks. 840:and see a list of open tasks. 44:Put new text under old text. 2735:" which is quite different. 2190:18:42, 9 February 2024 (UTC) 2160:18:17, 9 February 2024 (UTC) 2142:14:47, 9 February 2024 (UTC) 2127:14:45, 9 February 2024 (UTC) 2027:. Zambia: Women for Change. 1749:Non-binary and third genders 1593:Biological factors and views 1564:Non-binary and third genders 3598:B-Class Philosophy articles 3504:23:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC) 3477:20:45, 11 August 2024 (UTC) 1960:in the past. The result of 52:New to Knowledge? Welcome! 3654: 3618:Ethics task force articles 3573:B-Class sociology articles 3282:01:28, 15 March 2024 (UTC) 3252:01:26, 15 March 2024 (UTC) 3222:01:21, 15 March 2024 (UTC) 3201:01:15, 15 March 2024 (UTC) 3186:01:14, 15 March 2024 (UTC) 3172:01:13, 15 March 2024 (UTC) 3155:00:57, 15 March 2024 (UTC) 3139:22:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 3064:17:57, 27 March 2024 (UTC) 3019:17:48, 27 March 2024 (UTC) 2969:15:07, 27 March 2024 (UTC) 2934:22:02, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2912:21:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2881:21:40, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2855:21:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2833:21:30, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2814:21:14, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2760:21:04, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2745:20:43, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2716:20:40, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2680:20:34, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2662:20:12, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2547:21:20, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2528:21:14, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2482:20:55, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2452:20:50, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2429:20:04, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2409:organism-based definitions 2388:19:51, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2356:19:30, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2341:19:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2312:19:22, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2282:19:06, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 2260:19:03, 13 March 2024 (UTC) 1958:Sex and gender distinction 1237:. Editors may also seek a 1094:project's importance scale 977:project's importance scale 872:project's importance scale 481:project's importance scale 437:WikiProject Gender studies 3458:19:48, 24 June 2024 (UTC) 3431:16:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC) 3305:21:33, 22 July 2024 (UTC) 2581:, we employ the wording " 1662:Gender as biopsychosocial 1491:As a grammatical category 1378:before editing this page. 1309: 1296:Good article reassessment 1251: 1247: 1145: 1129: 1100: 1087: 1018: 970: 903: 865: 798: 648:Brannon Masculinity Scale 487: 474: 422: 329: 311: 82:Be welcoming to newcomers 3368:dictionary.cambridge.org 3109:07:40, 15 May 2024 (UTC) 3079:07:32, 15 May 2024 (UTC) 3040:man/boy/woman/girl/other 2896:gender-critical feminism 1649:Psychology and sociology 1372:normal editorial process 662:Michael Kaufman (author) 434:This article is part of 361:WikiProject LGBT studies 3608:B-Class ethics articles 2611:I.e., so it would read: 2018:Muyoyeta, Lucy (2004). 1359:as a contentious topic. 1105:Associated task forces: 461:Gender studies articles 3638:Delisted good articles 3518:B-Class vital articles 2200:embody the male gender 1476:History of the concept 1368:standards of behaviour 1331:educational assignment 1142: 1126: 1049:WikiProject Philosophy 948:Sexology and sexuality 926:Human sexuality portal 895:Sexology and sexuality 77:avoid personal attacks 3548:B-Class LGBT articles 1809:General strain theory 1312:Delisted good article 1231:good article criteria 1141: 1125: 829:WikiProject Sociology 577:/Sexuality and gender 449:for more information. 373:or contribute to the 290:level-3 vital article 237:Auto-archiving period 102:Neutral point of view 3372:Cambridge Dictionary 3003:male:sex::man:gender 2900:anti-gender movement 2598:may refer to either 1824:Economic development 1506:As distinct from sex 1364:purpose of Knowledge 1277:Good article nominee 1186:. Any such comments 1009:Social and political 707:Gender studies stubs 107:No original research 3052:RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ 3007:RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ 2178:RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ 2069:) 17 May 2019 (UTC) 2001:) 17 May 2019 (UTC) 1549:Societal categories 1447:Etymology and usage 1414: 1074:Philosophy articles 693:History of feminism 3406:. Merriam-Webster. 3352:. Merriam-Webster. 3228:WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY 2046:Citation suggested 1979:Citation Suggested 1719:Transgender people 1675:Gender and society 1408: 1353:contentious topics 1252:Article milestones 1181: 1143: 1127: 1059:general discussion 852:sociology articles 299:content assessment 88:dispute resolution 49: 3416:Label o f picture 3331:978-1-4833-8427-6 3272:are problematic) 2788:Furthermore, the 2772:employ the terms 2070: 2057:comment added by 2002: 1989:comment added by 1976: 1975: 1938: 1937: 1933: 1932: 1929: 1928: 1607:Non-human animals 1409:Section size for 1383: 1382: 1338: 1337: 1317: 1316: 1305: 1304: 1206: 1205: 1177: 1164: 1163: 1160: 1159: 1156: 1155: 1152: 1151: 1041:Philosophy portal 987: 986: 983: 982: 882: 881: 878: 877: 777: 776: 773: 772: 769: 768: 765: 764: 401: 400: 397: 396: 268: 267: 68:Assume good faith 45: 3645: 3436:By the time the 3408: 3407: 3394: 3388: 3387: 3385: 3383: 3360: 3354: 3353: 3340: 3334: 3322:Kevin L. 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