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1466:, and that's a Mijak. On the other hand, the Mijaks as an ethnographic group had mainly Bulgarian and Serbian identity until the formation of a Macedonian one, and its imposition mainly after the Second World War. Pulevski himself goes through all these national identities in succession. The newly formed Macedonian identity then was immature and primary, unlike the other two, which were traditional in the region. Because of this, I think listing only one identity in the introduction (the most underdeveloped and most briefly professed by the subject of the article, although he is best known for it) and ignoring the others is quite controversial. The current lead is o.k.
815:, in many historical topics, scholarship is divided, so several scholarly positions should be relied upon. Some people masquerading as scholars actually present fringe views outside of the accepted practice, and these should not be used. Pulevski's Macedonian self-identification was ambiguous. Pulevski viewed Macedonian identity as being a regional phenomenon. He identified as a Mijak from Galičnik, then described himself as a "Serbian patriot" and later viewed him as "Bulgarian from Galičnik". Finally he viewed himself as a Macedonian, thus he changed his self-identification several times during his lifetime. For more details see:
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1103:. Pulevski probably did not have an exclusivist approach when it comes to the term "Macedonian" anyway (see Multilingualism in the Central Balkans in late Ottoman times, pp. 61–62). As an example, Grigor Parlichev did not always self-identify as a Bulgarian, but his Bulgarian national activism is what makes him notable. I am not against either option, to include or omit ethnicity. I just do not think the current status quo is good. Not that him being a Mijak is irrelevant but it is already covered in the body.
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It's not that there aren't enough reliable sources for him too to have been an ethnic
Macedonian, but it's just that things are more complicated with such early Macedonists. Misirkov constantly wanders between his Bulgarian and Macedonian self-identification, while with Pulevski the work regarding his identification is even more perplexed. It is switching among Serbian, Bulgarian and Macedonian. This is clearly stated by Tchavdar Marinov, who has defined his Macedonian identity as a
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From reading the discussion above and a check on some sources about the matter, I do not see a clear and definite consensus among sources as to which such term would be appropriate for him, and it seems to be rather like the old
Facebook "It's complicated" status. Given that, I think that rather than
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Alexis
Heraclides, Routledge (2020). Discusses his works in which he describes Macedonians as a nation and notes he was among the first to come up with the idea that modern Macedonians had ancient Macedonian ancestry, but also states that his claims cannot be used to imply a "clear-cut adherence" to
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I'm thinking of something more neutral as definition. Even a
Macedonian activist as Misirkov, who lived a generation later than Pulevski and is with greater merits for the Macedonian national idea than Pulevski, is not defined as an ethnic Macedonian on Knowledge, due to his blurred self-awareness.
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I think the matter can be resolved with a RfC. I have read the talk page archive and there is no explicit consensus to list him as a Mijak there. There is only silent consensus. Going by the literature, it does not appear to be particularly relevant, especially to the point it should be in the first
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Ethnicity should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability. Pulevski's numerous self-identifications reveal the absence of clear ethnic identity by him. All of this has been repeatedly discussed on here over the last 2 decades and we have finally arrived at the current
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Pulevski’s evolving self-identification reflects the complex cultural landscape of
Macedonia. His initial ties to Mijak identity connect him to local heritage, while his shifting labels—such as "Serbian patriot" and "Bulgarian"—can be viewed as pragmatic responses to political pressures. Ultimately,
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Going through the sources, I don't see a lot of disagreement necessarily. Almost all, from what I've gleaned, discuss
Pulevski's unprecedented efforts to establish Macedonian identity and language. The difference I suppose would be that a few note his not-so clear-cut self-identity (usually as
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Consensus is
Knowledge's fundamental method of decision making. It involves an effort to address editors' legitimate concerns through a process of compromise while following Knowledge's policies and guidelines. There is no consensus at the moment about your recent changes. There are reasons to
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He is not really best known for his Mijak identity. If that was the case, it would have more coverage in the sources. However, Pulevski appears to be an underresearched individual anyway. I like the input from others here though. More information about his legacy can be added, about how he is
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I still remain a supporter of a more objective and comprehensive approach, not focused on a separate part of a person's life, but giving a broader view of his ideas. In this case, the special thing is that
Pulevski was the first known historical figure to profess a Slavic-Macedonian identity.
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I think the best options are either to list him as a
Macedonian or omit ethnicity entirely from the lead. I have reviewed the literature (including sources that are not currently cited in the article) about him, so those seem like the most realistic options. However, since we cannot reach a
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Daskalov and
Marinov, Brill (2013). They note his famous early writings and state that his "Macedonian nationalism is confirmed by other works of his" and note his claims that Alexander and Philip were Slavs. They do note "there are reasons to interpret" his identity as unclear, as his
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Stefan Rohdewald, Brill (2022). Mentions him multiple times including as a "Macedonian historiographer", noting how "like the Bulgarian tsars, the Serbian kings remained foreigners for him... ruling over 'Macedonian regions'". Conversely, he identified some Byzantine emperors as
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consensus, I suggested a RfC. It is not really about the number of editors which agree but even if it was, 2-3 editors would not result into a stable consensus. It is better to gain the insight from other editors too. Accusations about accounts are not really constructive here.
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I understand your point. Pulevski is notable for his role in Macedonian language and culture, not for contributions to Serbian or Bulgarian culture. I also don't believe an unclear ethnic identity precludes us from labelling him a Macedonian in the lead sentence. As an example,
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It's basically two in support and one against here. Historically in these situations, that's good enough for a consensus when it's Jingiby and a given revived Bulgarian account against me alone but when it's Jingiby alone, that's when an RFC is apparently needed.
1063:(p. 243). Perhaps I'll add some when I find the time for it. More context can still be added about Pulevski's work. Either way, these sources are much better than the sources the other editor was attempting to cite and I am not opposed to that option.
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Another formulation we could go with instead of simply "was a Macedonian/Mijak writer and revolutionary" is "was a writer on the topic of Macedonian language and nationalism, and a revolutionary in Serbia, Bulgaria and Macedonia", or similar.
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Nada Boskovska, Bloomsbury (2017). Describes Pulevski as "the most explicit personification" of representatives of the Macedonian national movement and claims he was engaged in "Phase A" national development. No mention of the unclear ethnic
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I see your point but we are discussing Pulevski and not Misirkov. The identities of individuals were complex in this period. However, if an identity makes a person notable, it can be included. It is consistent with
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balanced version of the article. Pulevski's changing ethnic identity is confirmed by a number of credible sources. That his role for the Macedonian identity is overexposed by some authors is another matter of POV.
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Requests by Georgi Pulevski to the Serbian prince Milan Obrenović, in which he defines himself as an ""Old Serb"" and asks that his books be printed in Serbian printing houses for free, as they had an educational
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This is clearly not true, there's only one talkpage archive page and it's sparse. This consensus was arrived at implicitly and I'm fine with it still, but I'm wondering if it is more appropriate to label him a
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Biljana Ristovska-Josifovska, LIT Verlag (2011). Discusses the value of his works/manuscripts in describing migrant worker life and the ethnographic/geographic situation of his native "Mijak" region.
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his contributions to Macedonian folklore and literature reinforce his connection to Macedonian identity, illustrating that identity can be multifaceted and deeply rooted in cultural context.
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I agree that this should be summarized in the lead. If the Macedonian nation didn't exist today, it's unlikely he would've received a fraction of the coverage he does in sources today. --
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The term can be unlinked for articles where it is referring to citizenship. I do not see why it would be unlinked if we are referring to ethnicity. I suggest the following sources:
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Mitko Panov, Brill (2019). Focuses on Pulevski's attempts to connect contemporary Macedonians to the ancient Macedonians and biblical Macedonia, as a call "to revive the history".
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it there, and instead (if it's significant enough to merit doing it) explain more fully the situation and how and why sources disagree on it in the body of the article.
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If you have sources, describe how Macedonians view him. His contributions are already noted in the lead. This may be too complicated to summarize in the infobox.
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interpret Pulevski's case as an absence of clear national identity. Pulevski's numerous self-identifications actually show the absence of clear ethnic identity.
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1409:. As stated above, Pulevski is essentially only notable for his contributions to Macedonian identity and culture (I brought up the example of
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Again, I'm not sure it's needed given just one user in opposition, but I'll commend you for seeking to ensure fairness. --
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a revived Bulgarian account? I suppose another newly registered user here, with biased edit-agenda, is a revived account.
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Sacralizing the Nation through Remembrance of Medieval Religious Figures in Serbia, Bulgaria and Macedonia: Volume 1
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Therefore, this identity was clearly quite unformed at this stage and could not be taken for granted at the time.
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characteristic of the time he lived), while the rest don't mention that. Here's a listing of sources:
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That his role for the Macedonian identity is overexposed by some authors is another matter of POV.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Jolanta Sujecka, John Benjamins Publishing Company (2023). Looks at Pulevskis work, particularly
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I agree this is reasonable, maybe even leaving "Macedonian" unlinked to any page. --
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RS emphasize his role in Macedonian identity because that's what he's notable for.
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His contributions to Macedonian identity are directly related to his notability.
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All of this has been repeatedly discussed on here over the last 2 decades
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No problem. Unless anyone has a better idea, I will initiate a RfC.
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trying to boil it down to one word in the infobox/lead, we should
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Desired Language: Languages as objects of national ideology
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466:Structure:
228:Start-class
148:free images
31:not a forum
1525:Categories
1443:Local hero
1428:Senorangel
1416:Local hero
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1260:Macedonian
1175:Local hero
1055:(p. 155),
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1462:one, not
1329:identity.
350:Biography
311:Biography
257:Biography
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1503:Comment:
1490:Wuerzele
808:purpose.
648:Bulgaria
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595:Bulgaria
427:criteria
358:European
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1486:Jingiby
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1456:Comment
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780:on the
675:on the
154:WP refs
142:scholar
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354:Balkan
234:scale.
126:Google
1244:ended
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
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