2184:. I came here today to find out the role of this individual in some technological advances. The article is rich with detail, but limited in its broader perspective, in part because it relies so thoroughly on news reports (which do not have the persecutive or go deeply enough to be actual best sources for WP historical statements), and then, as well, it relies on substantial material, sourced and unacknowledged, that derives from the title subject. For these reasons, I have called for a technology expert to see if some Winer sources can be replaced with third-party, scholarly, secondary sources, to buttress stated importance of his contributions and innovations.
1685:) Your reasoning for not wanting the cyber squatting episode in the article, is that it is not flattering to Dave. The episodes got more attention in the media then most of the other things mentioned here. Also, the lawsuit's outcome has no baring on its merit. He was sued and I provided documentation. If you would like to include what the outcome was please do so. Simply editing my contributions is the vandalism you guys have accused me of. You are capable of adding what you want, so do so if you have references and please leave what it true in the article.--
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regarding the question of "Who invented RSS, RSS 1.0 and RSS 2.0, Aaron Swartz or DW?" and so forth. I am most grateful for the details regarding DW and
Professor Jay Rosen's collaborative endeavors. The article is probably too lengthy, and fails to mention religious affiliation, marital status or offspring. If I were gratuitously trouble-making, I would initiate a squabble about whether the subject should be included in Category American Jews. I am not inclined toward that, not for now. --
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by the overwhelming consensus here. Some questions of nuance may deserve discussion. Were other developers at
Userland worth mentioning here? Should more attention to these matters be paid at Userland's page? But the outlines are clear. Further, your tone seems less the civil -- and appears to be growing more agitated, not less, as suggested by your threat to "report you".
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influential software developer and Winer was its software designer and architect. The Gawker piece is not a reliable source, and even if there were a reliable source -- there are surely court records -- the incident would not be notable. Businesses ask courts to decide who owns what all the time, and people do defensive domain registrations all the time as well.
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not. Someone filed a lawsuit; they lost. This happens all the time for all sorts of reasons, and there's no clear reason to think this episode is significant. Two businesses disagreed over exactly who owned what; the courts cleared it up. Happens every day. You, NIrelan, care about it, but I don't know why it matters to the general reader.
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inexplicable external link to a blog, of Winer's father, was removed, because it was unclear what this source was intended to convey. (Perhaps the externally linked blog was the blog of the father; regardless, it was not properly placed as a source, and was not a valid source for the fact that the gentleman named was Winer's father.
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Winer's alleged cybersquatting is not a matter of "truth" but of relevance. A minor squabble over a few domain registrations is simply too trivial to merit inclusion in this biography, even if a self-described gossip magazine and an adversarial blog chose to report it. The litigation over weblogs.com
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Yes, the list of external links is undesirable. This page has been a source of friction over the years, however, and in some cases material that probably ought to be present in the main body has been relegated to this list out of sensitivity to the concerns of specific editors. I'd like to verify
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I think good faith suggests that we should assume that ARK's edits are intended to improve
Knowledge, and civility suggests that we should not attribute motivations to other users. WIkipedia articles should be informative; they are not meant to be catalogs of every fact or occurrence, verifiable or
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Its nice that this page is protected every time someone adds something that isn't flattering to Dave Winer. I would like to see anyone argue that Gawker and the other sources are not apropriate. There is nothing wrong with the edits I made, the people here are simply biased and childish. If you can
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objection. Winer was for many years a leading tech journalist. His journalism alone would make him notable in wikipedia terms. In addition, Winer's
Scripting News was extremely important in forming weblog style, and in creating the now-familiar role of tech celebrity. (Please assume good faith and
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Irelan, please calm down. We have discussed these questions at great length. Winer's role in the development of podcasting is clear and well known. Winer’s role in developing and promoting EditThisPage is also well known. Both are clearly documented. None of this is ridiculous, or even contested
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Be all this as it may, I found the article quite informative as it is now. I don't believe that a recording of the subject's voice is necessary. Otherwise, it is quite sufficient for me to see that the subject's background as a businessman is chronicled, sparsely but sufficiently. The same is true
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UserLand was a small company that consisted of Dave Winer and whatever half-dozen-or-so programmers he was hiring at any one time. For most of its history, UserLand also depended on Winer to write the cheques that would keep the company going because revenue was negligible or inexistent. Winer was
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Also, Id like to get along, but some of this is obviously fluff and making some of the things hes done vastly more important than they were. Some of these share your OPML site type entries are for sites that were never popular and don't exist anymore. Bill Gates started a company before
Microsoft,
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I'd also like to point out that the subject founded several very successful companies and did, in point of fact, play a central and crucial role in developing and popularizing outliners, podcasts, and outlines. Your insistence that these are "fake claims" is not supported by the historical record
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As well, I have made more transparent the lack of sourcing of some material to Winer sources (adding tags to clear autobiographical statements), and as a matter of principle and policy, have removed a variety of external links that were embedded in the text (turning them into formal sources). An
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OPML. It seems to me that we discussed the cybersquatting question some time ago and decided it was not sufficiently important to include. Is this not a WP:DEADHORSE? The question of separating Winer from UserLand is pointless; whatever its revenues and governance, UserLand was unquestionable an
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Why remove Edit This Page? It's been discussed here, and I think the consensus is clear that Edit This Page belongs on this page. Of course, if you'd like to improve the
Userland page by discussing it there as well, that would be excellent! Why not think of some better ways to extend and improve
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Finally, the reason for the "third-party" and BLP refimprove" tags was simply this: there was a complete lack of third-party sourcing in the Early life… section, and most material there was unsourced. And as I scanned elsewhere in the article, I noted that this bad habit of inserting unsourced
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As well, the general issue is explained in this way, to include the indirect: It is clear that Mr Winer has initiated and participated in many efforts, organizations, and companies. When these organizations and companies produce informational materials about Winer efforts, products, etc. these
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I just read through all of the prior history of contention on this article. I understand the banned user's point, and am sympathetic. I also understand why it was problematic, in the context of
Knowledge. Knowledge isn't intended to be a form of investigative journalism. Knowledge cannot right
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Otherwise, in lessor matters, I combined two overly short sections containing related career content categories, made a section title to be "‎Family background and education" as this is more standard for BLP articles, added a "Personal life" section, to end, as per standard for biographies,
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Mark, you certainly haven't wanted to get along in the past. He isn't a journalist at all. He has a personal blog that details his personal feels. His work for
Hotwired is documented. I see no other tech company founders who's personal blog is listed in their article. All of this talk like,
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The irrelevance you wish to include under
Cybersquatting is still only supported by a potty-mouthed piece in a gossip rag. Its foul language is evidence that the piece didn't go through an editorial process. Normally on Knowledge, editorial process is the baseline for a reliable source.
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Editthispage and some of the ohter sites are
Userland sites, not Dave's. You will leave untruths in the article and try to take away negative things that are clearly mentioned in a notable blog. Please quit editing this article as you have proven you can't do so with a clear mind.
1215:"important in forming a style and the father of", simply exists because I pointed out that he didn't invent the things this article claims he did. I have no objection to including a link to Scripting news, but a section about writing because he has a personal site? Come on.--
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grievous miscarriages of justice nor remedy unethical behavior by the subjects of BLP articles. Trying to do so wouldn't right the wrongs expressed by the banned editor(s), but rather, lead to defamation lawsuits against WP. That isn't helpful to anyone!
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The "writer" section is clearly not worthy of being in the page. It is simply fluff meant to add credibility to the rest of the page. If you look at Steve Wozniak his personal site isn't mentioned, the same is true for other tech company
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Quit undoing things and calling them vandalism. If the statements are true they can be here. Quit trying to edit out anything negative. You act like children. You do not own Knowledge and can't delete things that you simply don't like.
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Analogies with other Knowledge articles are irrelevant. There is one simple and compelling rationale for this section: Winer's writing is discussed in a non-trivial number of reliable sources, which are duly referenced in the section.
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I agree with ARK, and I am not convinced by your arguments. Disclosure: though I was a Radio Userland user for a short time 10 years ago or more, I do not presently use any of Winer's software, nor do I know him personally. --
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Share your OPML was noted in the technology press at the time. The comparison with Bill Gates is spurious: Living Videotext created a new commercial product category and won a major industry award for one of its products.
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Quit telling me what to do and stop adding incorrect statements. There are people who founded large companies that don't have this much talk about their blogs and fake claims of inventing things. You guys are being
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sources of information are still, inherently under the control of the title subject (while he is at the helm of the effort), and so these are not independent, third-party sources, as called for under
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It is best we keep to standard, and not let the article begin to drift to the addition of stray unsourced statements. People's opinions and stray thoughts are fine, but they are not encyclopedic.
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In any case, I think I speak for a number of editors in asking that you not make further sweeping edits along these lines before discussing them, and obtaining a reasonable consensus, here.
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and others was setup to collect these. Just because something isn't "necessary" doesn't mean we shouldn't include it if it is both interesting and doesn't fall foul of content policies. —
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That dosen't cut it, the site that is listed as a reference shows a screen shot that says Userland. Why is it so important to puff this article up? It was clearly a Userland product.--
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There's a few items on that list that can be dropped: others should be worked into the body of the article, I think. FrontierKernel.org, for instance, should go with a mention under
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1076:- its a good way of working together - you make a B old edit and its R everted and you then Discuss - BRD - Please don't post in capitals, its considered shouting , thanks -
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If its common knowledge that Userland made it then your opinions don't matter. It should be removed according to the rules of Knowledge. I thank you for admitting such.--
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The inclusion of the subject's voice is not a matter of being "necessary" or not: it's a nice thing to have, like good photography and so on. A whole project run by
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also the majority shareholder, so he wasn't accountable to anybody. The difference between Winer the man and UserLand the company amounts to a pointless quibble.
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occupies a place today much like the one Winer occupied years ago. On Winer's role in the development of weblog style, see Scott Rosenberg, __Say Anything_
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was a UserLand site, there is no "proof" required. Nobody, however, finds your argument convincing that the circumstance is grounds for excluding
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I have added two book references to the Edit This Page section, one of which explicitly identifies Winer as the "proprietor" of the service.
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In course of doing this, an effort was made to begin the process of checking and completing citation to standard, esp. URL-only citations.
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I would like to propose the Cybersquatting section for removal as it does not meet the notability criterion. Moreover, the headline of the
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I changed the section topic to a more neutral-sounding summary. I think this is probably a good idea for keeping everyone calm and civil.
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show that any of the things added are untrue, please discuss it here rather than simply trying to force people to do as Mr. Winer asks.(
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Ark this just shows your bias, the cybersquatting section is based on a more reputable site than anything referncing the OPML part.--
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I see no reason to exclude a UserLand project from the page; the subject ran the company and was its primary software designer.
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Again, this is a fluff piece. I have cited proof that Editthispage was a Userland product and you still refuse to remove it.
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I agree. But isn't it interesting how quiet and trouble-free this page has been in the six months since one user was banned?
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If no one objects to this, here, I will consider it approval to edit the page. Any undoing will be considered vandalism.--
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Ark Bestydevine or whatever her screen name is has contributed several things to this article and personally knows Dave.
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1381:. So insisting on a separation between Winer the man an UserLand the company is mostly an exercise in splitting hairs.
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If you guys undo one more change without providing some proof I'll report you. DAVE DID NOT INVENT PODCASTING.--
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Only items that are true and referenced belong. Editthispage was created by Userland, it dosen't belong here.--
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that the most useful links are properly connected to the main article before we simply delete the list.
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Both of those people's personal sites are listed as links. Only companies are listed in the article.--
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1313:) 17:19, 26 April 2012 (UTC) For example, Editthispage.com was a Userland site, not Dave's site.--
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tone down the threats that "any undoing will be considered vandalism". By whom? Let's get along.)
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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There are several broken links. We need to fix this to make sure the references are correct.--
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Well I'm going to remove it. Your opinion is not important when it's a matter of fact.--
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We've had the "POV check" for 5 1/2 months; it's time to delete it.
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Allow it to stay for now and we'll work it off one item at a time.
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Now, if you want any of those back, provide proof. --
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and, in themselves, raise some potential BLP issues.
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2048:09:57, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
2033:Projects and activities
2018:23:02, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
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2352:All Computing articles
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88:avoid personal attacks
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1845:conflict of interest
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118:No original research
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32:This is the
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161:free images
44:not a forum
2231:Categories
2143:Tom Morris
2067:neutrality
1985:discussion
1932:Tom Morris
1831:DaveSeidel
1762:DaveSeidel
1361:DaveSeidel
1053:Podcasting
885:Podcasting
844:Podcasting
687:Journalism
678:journalism
634:Journalism
38:Dave Winer
2197:WP:VERIFY
2125:FeralOink
1904:in 2007)
942:Computing
404:Biography
344:Biography
283:libellous
101:if needed
84:Be polite
34:talk page
1946:Irelan12
1882:contribs
1874:Irelan12
1870:unsigned
1776:Irelan12
1687:Irelan12
1653:Irelan12
1622:Irelan12
1576:Irelan12
1562:Irelan12
1532:Irelan12
1479:Irelan12
1437:contribs
1429:Irelan12
1425:unsigned
1404:Irelan12
1386:O'Reilly
1346:Irelan12
1315:Irelan12
1307:Irelan12
1265:Irelan12
1217:Irelan12
1181:Irelan12
1167:Irelan12
1165:heads.--
1113:Irelan12
1099:Irelan12
1059:Irelan12
980:Software
971:software
937:Software
872:podcasts
582:Business
573:business
529:Business
495:Blogging
489:inactive
463:inactive
458:Blogging
243:deletion
199:Archives
69:get help
42:This is
40:article.
1760:Agree.
1743:article
1662:decided
1457:DaveNet
1007:on the
912:on the
819:on the
714:on the
609:on the
315:C-class
167:WPÂ refs
155:scholar
2035:, etc.
2029:Writer
1808:Delete
1373:Winer
1197:strong
1083:really
1074:WP:BRD
321:scale.
139:Google
182:JSTOR
143:books
97:Seek
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874:and
393:and
251:keep
249:was
175:FENS
149:news
86:and
2071:ARK
2040:ARK
1989:ARK
1966:ARK
1950:ARK
1930:. —
1906:ARK
1853:ARK
1791:ARK
1747:ARK
1679:ARK
1666:ARK
1655:)
1608:ARK
1594:ARK
1465:ARK
1390:ARK
1331:ARK
1280:ARK
1249:.
1087:can
1079:You
999:Mid
904:Low
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706:Low
601:Low
272:BLP
189:TWL
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