1358:(if P then Q; not P; therefore not Q): if it is a bug, then it is an insect; it isn't a bug; therefore, it isn't an insect. Since by definition (loosely) insects are categorically subordinate to bugs it is necessarily true that it isn't a insect if it isn't an bug. There is an inherent implication of "if Q then P" by definition in the predicates. Now, you might note that the first premise is not true but this would be a question of soundness,which concerns the truthiness of the premises, not validity, which concerns the form and implication of the meaning of those premises and there might be situational context that makes such a statement true (eg. you might be pulling objects from a box that I filled and I happened to selected many objects but only insect bugs). This might also touch on the topic above concerning some inherited definitional biconditionalism.
1454:@Atethnekos, hidden premises or not, the point being is that there are situational versions of DA validity. You don't have to explicate and reformulate the argument in a different syllogistic form and say this is the only reason because that would only demonstrate that if a form of DA hides a valid syllogistic form on occasion then it too transitionally is valid right? It would only prove the point so I'm not sure what the issue is. Either way, I'm only talking about the example above and these arguments against the whole idea are about whether situational DA validity exists at all. My point was about clarifying the example that is already on the page but I'm happy to talk about this anyway if you like. As stated above twice I gave an example where the premise might, in fact be true and make DA valid and sound.
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stated. Since all insects are bugs one can properly deduce that if a thing is not a bug then it is not an insect. This only works because of the contextual tokens taken in the types here. In other words this particular form when not altered to be a different form as you have done is filled with some particular references it becomes valid to use. I even mention conceivable situations in which the first premise is in fact true! Please read. Imagine you have a box with things in it. I filled the box with many things. I only put bugs that are insects inside. Under these conditions the first premise would be true in the reasoning and the DA would be valid and sound should you pull a bug!!!!
1431:@96.247.231.243, your particular argument is invalid. I made note that the premise you mentioned is false. Triviality is a moot point here. The point being made is that a contextual syllogistic form of DA is valid; that is circumstantially. Your point about false premise is irrelevant since it does nothing to dissuade of the validity. As I mentioned in the previous post, soundness of a premise has nothing to do with validity. An argument of the particular form that I mentioned in the post is conditionally valid: If P then Q; Not P; therefore not Q. You cannot alter the premises and then reassess the validity as you did here: "clearly true -: -->
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place in public speech. It would be ignorant to ignore the implications of virtually everyone when they make a DA claim, which is, I would argue, at least as often 'if and only if' as it is not. For some examples: "If the surgery goes well, my dad will survive." "If the chemotherapy works, I will survive." "If I'm hungry after class tonight, I will eat." These are just a few examples where the person implicitly means to include 'if and only if,' and where denying the antecedent would in fact also deny the consequent. I think this article would be served by including this obvious fact in the article.
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that's supposed to point out why
Turings argument is wrong: "However, men could still be machines that do not follow a definite set of rules." is very shaky in the context of Turings use of the word machine, in that a machine in this context is something that *must* follow a definite set of rules. The terms used, by definition, bring extra conditions to the argument. Please consider removing this example, and replace it with one without the same baggage as it only adds confusion to an article seeking to clearly explain the fallacy.
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work (you could be successfully treated by other, stronger chemo, or radiation, or have spontaneous remission), you might eat even if you aren't hungry (intelligent people leave open such possibilities as a friend coming by with homemade cookies) -- it's ironic that you insist that most cases of DA aren't fallacies, that people know how to reason validly, and then present three DA fallacies as examples of non-fallacious reasoning. --
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860:-- but that's obviously BS; there are many reasons to be coy other than having time to do the deed later. What you are arguing is that this DA is a not a fallacy because, if the conditional were a biconditional, it wouldn't be one. Sorry, but that puts the cart before the horse, altering the stated premise simply to avoid this being a fallacy -- but it is one; a bit of nefarious rhetoric. --
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only if" with "if" alone is a completely understandable, forgivable and permissible linguistic choice. And it doesn't cause problems in day to day speech. In fact, it's rather coy and snotty and actually ignorant of us to accuse people of using a fallacy when we know what they really meant. 16:57, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
1523:-- What an ironic fallacy of denial of the antecedent. No number of examples of non-fallacies using "if" will establish that "if" is not used fallaciously. Numerous common examples abound such as "The police protect us from criminals. If you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear from the police." --
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Your example with the coin is an invalid argument. Just because the premises and the conclusions are both correct it doesn't mean that the argument is a valid logical link between them. In this case you're relying on the fact that coins only have two sides, which you don't mention. A similar argument
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Q is not a valid argument regardless of whether Q is true (it happens to be, here)". The form is not If P then Q, P, therefore Q. That isn't the assertion being made. The assertion is that under particular conditions inferences being made by DA are valid. I gave examples and you are criticizing a
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It didn't say that the form is sometimes valid, it said that some arguments of the form are valid. For example: " If (R or S), then R. ~(R or S). Therefore, ~R." That is certainly valid (the conclusion follows from De Morgan's laws and conjunction elimination) even though it denies the antecedent
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biconditionals -- your dad can survive even if the surgery doesn't go well (if someone says that and you ask "what if it doesn't go well", they're likely to say "then we'll hope for a miracle" or "then he may end up a vegetable", not "then he's sure to die"), you can survive even if the chemo doesn't
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a biconditional; if it were, then a) there would be no need for this bit of of nefarious rhetoric and b) it would be blatantly false -- it clearly isn't true that the only valid reason for being "coy" is that there is time to not be "coy" later. It's amazing that anyone who lives in the real world of
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As for the Turing example, it is quite appropriate here, as Turing presented it as one of several fallacious arguments against the notion that machines can think, and it obviously is not a biconditional and it would be most silly to take it as one -- it clearly isn't meant to assert that man would be
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often commit the fallacy described in the article. To note this fact is not coy, snotty, or ignorant (a heavy case of pot/kettle/black there), nor is it an accusation of using a fallacy against people not using a fallacy -- what a ridiculous failure of logic; it's like saying that those who point out
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Just a viewpoint from a random reader browsing through - I read the quote from Turing, and came here to the talk page to see if it was controversial, because given certain prior beliefs about people, machines, and rules, the quote from Turing stands as a valid argument. The sentence after the example
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Yes, but quoting the article out of context leads to confusion here, because I think most people would agree with Turing's fake argument because it rests upon the common notion people hold that "people are machines if and only if they follow a set of rules to live by", as Twey pointed out. Obviously
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The discussion here about the poem's guilt or innocence over containing the fallacy is well and fine, but as it stands currently, linking to the poem detracts more than it adds to this article. Neither page makes reference to the other over the presumed error. Currently, the poem's page notes, "The
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a man who doesn't conduct his life by a definite set of rules can still be a machine -- adaptive machines can implement a fixed set of rules internally (an algorithm) while having quite irregular behavior that is largely governed by their environment. (A la nurture vs. nature ... it's not one or the
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I came here for a similar reason. I felt the example was poorly explicated on the page but is more understandable directly above this comment. Still, I suggest an easier example of the "conditional validity" of denying the antecedent, such as a categorical encompassing. To demonstrate by form of
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The new, randomly introduced argument, is somewhat similar to the original argument, but according to the definition of the form given above, it is not an example of this form. Therefore, I don't understand how this proves that the first argument, denying the antecedent, was "valid in this case".
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Denying the antecedent in its valid form is, in fact, far and away the most commonly used form of denying the antecedent in everyday speech, as in
Marvell's poem. Technically, those who say we can't know for sure that his poem was the 'if and only if' form of DA are correct, but technicality has no
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Turing begins the essay by defining machines, as discrete machines; machines for Turing are by definition ones which only follow sets of rules. If you had an 'object' which did not follow rules, I don't think Turing would count it as a 'machine'. There is an implied premise which makes the argument
1219:
But again, let's get realistic. When a teenage girl says "If I have a boyfriend, I will go to the dance tomorrow," they are implying that they will not go if they don't have such a boyfriend. This is the valid form of denying the antecedent, which I argue should get more play time in this article.
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we had time." (Iff A then B) You really don't think he meant it this way? This is a truly pure logician's way of looking at it, but it ignores social reality. Marvell clearly meant that ONLY if we have time is it okay to be coy, but we do not have time, so we must have sex. As silly as the premise
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The problem exists in this comment section too. User "271828182" claimed denying the antecedent is a widespread fallacy precisely because of 'misreading,' or perhaps he really meant 'misusing' a conditional as a biconditional. If he didn't mean it that way, he should have: the problem doesn't come
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without including some explanation of applicability or noteworthiness, the link is superfluous and serves no encyclopedic function. While it may be interesting for a Wikia page on a more specific subject, like a
Fallacy Wikia or a 17th Century Poetry Wikia, it's likely of interest and use to very
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widespread, because most of the time when people use it they DO mean 'if and only if,' and in public speech, that's how things work: we are not required to logically outline EXACTLY what we mean every time we say it, often things are implied, even in the most rigid social camps. Replacing "if and
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I think it is valid, but as an instance of the principle of sufficient reason. If it were the case that A, then that would be a reason for B. But it is not the case that A. Thus (assuming a supressed premiss to the effect that there is no other reason for being B), the principle of sufficient
545:
There is so much wrong in the above comment ... it actually contains a fallacy of denial of the antecedent within it. This article is about the fallacy of denial of the antecedent of a conditional ... that people often non-fallaciously deny the antecedent of a biconditional -- that is, that they
1685:
It is unclear why this edit was left in place. It was an nonconstructive addition on or about
November 2010, originated from an ip address and was not signed by it's author. As a general user, seeing this page for the first time I found the reference to be unclear. If it has some purpose in the
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argument is "inherent" in the meanings of the terms, you have to take the argument as stated." There is definitely an implication as such, that if it is not an insect then it isn't a bug. There is no requirement to explicate that so you might have to take your advice and take the argument as
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As it is, it's actually more confusing to readers of the article: they will leave the article thinking that, invariably, denying the antecedent is wrong, accusing people they hear of being logically invalid even while that person innocently meant to, but did not, include 'if and only if.'
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The Turing quote is confusing because Turing claims it is an example of a different fallacy. I have no idea why he classified it that way, but it makes the example's use here less well-chosen than it might be. (That is, I don't think the usage is technically wrong, but I think it invites
1023:
the "see also" link on this page is more confusing than not. But my biggest issue is that the most common usage of DA is barely mentioned here, and I think incorporating the
Marvell poem in the article to explain DA with 'if and only if' might be a good way, as another editor
385:
Misreading a conditional as a biconditional, however common it may be, is simply an error. Indeed, it is a major reason why denying the antecedent is a widespread fallacy. That the error is not obvious is the point, as the text introducing the example explicitly observes.
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form that is not being asserted. Please don't target arguments that I am not making. That is strawmanning the argument since that is not the assertion being made. As for this: "there is no such "implicit implication" at all. There is a misstated, false, premise, P -: -->
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It goes on to demonstrate that if an argument of the form "denying the antecedent" is arbitrarily altered by adding some other condition, then the modified argument may be valid, thus proving that there is an exception to the rule that denying the antecedent is fallacious.
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most clear example of DA in
English literature? A Knowledge reader following the link will have her doubts on the DA subject decreased, or increased, by reading this poem? Regarding the explanation of the DA in the poem above, I have my doubts. I understand the following:
722:
Really? Walk up to a woman on the street and tell her that the only reason she could possibly have for not sleeping with you on the spot is if there were time to do it later, and report how things "seem" to you when she gives her response. --
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other, it's both.) The definite set of rules that meat machines follow is not to be found by studying their whole-body conduct, but rather by examining their internal components -- cells, which follow incredibly complex but definite rules. --
1499:, not implication. Normal language doesn't include such a term as "if and only if", and it does allow ambiguous meanings that are distinguished by context. Only logicians believe that their usage of "if" is the same as implication. ... said:
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logical form of the poem runs: if... but... therefore...", which is not even cited. While the See Also section is not total serious business like the rest of the content is, I still find the link's inclusion egregious, distracting at best:
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I was the original editor who classified "To His Coy
Mistress" as a correct form of denying the antecedent, but I did so within that poem's entry. I don't know if this had any influence on including it here. For one, I agree that
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reading makes no sense.) Will a
Knowledge reader grasp that the poem is an example of DA? Maybe, maybe not. Will they read some great poetry and see how fallacious inferences can go generally unnoticed? I would hope so.
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I must admit there is a temptation to rescue the poem by reading the first line as a biconditional. But to stick to what
Marvell wrote, we must conclude that not only is the poet's motive impure, but so too is his logic.
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this article is already somewhat inaccessible, in my opinion, to the reading level of the layman, so giving him or her this as further reading, without any encyclopedic information to explain, is confusing and
1728:"Denying the antecedent, sometimes also called inverse error or fallacy of the inverse, is a formal fallacy of inferring the inverse from the original statement. It is committed by reasoning in the form:
1374:
P" is an implicit premise. Well, that's fine, but an implicit premise is still a premise, and when you include that premise, you no longer have an argument of the denying the antecedent form, I believe.
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that "literally" is often misused are accusing people who use it correctly of using it incorrectly. Or like saying that some brunettes dye their hair blond is an accusation against natural blonds.
749:
This is severe logical failure. DA is a fallacy exactly because it requires this "supressed premiss" in order to go through. In this case, that premise -- that there is no reason not to have sex
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Is this link appropriate (in the "see also" section)? The editor who included it says that the poem is a good example of denying the antecedent... I don't really see it so clear. Opinions? —
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is, if it WERE true, the argument would be sound. Which means that as it is, the argument is valid. It's no use to get squeamish around implication, since it's used so often in reality.
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from misreading them, because face it, when people use a conditional in DA they very often mean a biconditional. The problem then is in people not clarifying that when they do use DA.
981:
it would better serve the article if we included in the main text an offending excerpt from the poem along with an explanation of its invalidity, alongside the other examples.
900:
Well, it is a very famous poem. Is it the clearest example of DA? No, but non-textbook examples of logical fallacies are seldom obvious. ("Had we but" is not equivalent to
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if you were not already aware of the poem's offending part(s), you will have to discover it yourself, either by your own analysis or through researching other analyses.
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on
Knowledge. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the
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On the reading of it, yes, that's possible. But the reading of 'but' in 'if we had but an X' usually implies sufficient condition, not necessary. Thus a fallacy.
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male-female relationships could think that this argument ("we're out of time and having more time would be the only valid reason not to screw right now") is valid.
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was not meant as a biconditional, else a) there would be no reason for the syllogism and b) the premise would assert that there is no reason to be coy
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about a dice uses exactly the same form, and has true premises and a potentially false conclusion: If one then not six. Not one, therefore six.
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797:. The poem obviously does not contain a biconditional -- there are plenty of reasons not to have sex other than having time to do it later. --
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Old, but I'll bite. This is a specific type of non sequitur, but this page (and related pages on logical fallacies) go into more depth than
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P \rightarrow Q (P implies Q) \therefore \neg P \rightarrow \neg Q (therefore, not-P implies not-Q) Arguments of this form are invalid".
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619:"Had we but world enough and time, this coyness, lady, were no crime" = "If we had time, then it'd be okay to be coy." (If A, then B)
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Forgive my English literature ignorance, but... is this poem so notable and well know that deserves mention? Is this the best known
1273:"Arguments of this form are invalid (except in the rare cases where such an argument also instantiates some other, valid, form). "
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reason implies not-B. But hang on. There has to be a sufficient reason for not B, doesn't there? Let me think about that.
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It looks to me as if this quote was intended to mean "if and only if," and thus is not a relevant example to this section. —
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I don't know if best known as DA, but, trust me, this is a very well poem. I found it quite amusing and a good example.
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false. This is a true blue DA fallacy and the people saying it isn't are simply thinking fallaciously, of the DA sort. --
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I think the one issue with your example is that it is unclear about the status of your premisses. You say that "Q-: -->
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This would be I think the easiest way to justify linking to the poem, although even then it's a tenuous justification.
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The article is written like "if" is an implication marker. Which is often isn't, f.ex. imagine an american dialogue:
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924:"Had I but a little slice of bread, I would not be dying of hunger!" "Ah. So a piece of ham wouldn't have helped."
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reason for being coy would be to have plenty of time in their hands (which is not the case), not that it would be
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1400:-- this premise is false. Deriving a true conclusion from a false premise is trivial, and you have done so here
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Well, didn't see this, weird and amusing, but shouldn't this be cross-linked in the actual article on the poem?
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Yes. Turing discusses just such an additional premise, and goes on to argue against it, in the passage cited.
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Read the essay. Turing explicitly intends the argument to be invalid: he erects it only to knock it down.
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No, they are implying no such thing. This article is about logical fallacies, its not a portal to Cyc. --
904:: do a Google search on an equivalent phrase such as "had I but" to see many examples of usage where the
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Seeing no objection, I removed the text which implied that denying the antecedent is sometimes valide.
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argument is "inherent" in the meanings of the terms, you have to take the argument as stated. --
1410:-- there is no such "implicit implication" at all. There is a misstated, false, premise, P -: -->
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622:"But at my back I always hear time's winged chariot drawing near" = "We don't have time." (Not A)
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Turing does not agree with that proposition, but that is not obvious reading the wiki article.
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Great! I just wanted to rest assured that its addition would be positive, as it seems it is. —
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I've heard a lot of things called politically biased before, but never a simple rule of logic!
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That is totally wrong, I should not be executed, in fact, I did not even steal your candy.
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The following sentence implies that denying the antecedent is sometimes a valid argument.
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in the definition given here, if P is a necessary condition for Q, is it still a fallacy?
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The falsehood of the argument is only true when P and Q are not mutually exhaustive.
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Q is not a valid argument regardless of whether Q is true (it happens to be, here).
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article, that may need clarification. If not, shall the link be removed? -Andreis
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Actually this might be a more relevant and understandable example for the article.
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Really should win an award for leftist crap (which is saying a lot on Knowledge)!
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There is an inherent implication of "if Q then P" by definition in the predicates
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If we wait, there is time (to wait) But there is no time Therefore we don't wait
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The article is written like "if" is an implication marker. Which is often isn't
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I be president, I could veto the decision, now I'm not, and therefore I can't
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If heads then not tails. Not heads Therefore tails ( i.e. Not not tails ).
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misunderstandings needlessly, given what Turning himself claims about it.)
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valid. That being that machines are things which follow rules. March 4 2008.
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Don't understand the proof that subject form of argument is sometimes valid
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O= My argument is correct P= You stole my candy Q= You should be executed
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this is not a particularly noteworthy example of denying the antecedent.
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Well, if I do find out that you stole my candy, you should be executed.
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employ modus tollens -- is irrelevant. What is relevant is that people
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If P(True) then Q(Not False). Not P(True) Therefore not Q(Not False).
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Thus, I am going to remove it, but offer a suggestion for compromise:
822:"Had we but world enough and time, this coyness, lady, were no crime"
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If P, then Q. Not P. Therefore, not Q. which may also be phrased as
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The logic is perfect in the context, where "if" signals equivalence
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employing a DA fallacy. Your argument is of the form false -: -->
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There is an argument technique that manipulates this fallacy:
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No one should be executed just because they stole your candy.
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Q. ~false (i.e., true). Therefore Q. But clearly true -: -->
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if he conducted his life by a definite set of rules. As for
251:"if P is a necessary condition for Q, is it still a fallacy"
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625:"Now let us sport while we may" = "Coyness is a crime, or,
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If whether Q is true or false depends on P, O must be true
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If whether Q is true or false depends on O, P must be true
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Probably a better solution is just to delete the see-also
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P. You can't argue that an argument is valid because the
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P. You can't argue that an argument is valid because the
1194:"If I have a boyfriend, I will go to the dance tomorrow.
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If I have a boyfriend, I will go to the dance tomorrow.
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In fact, the correct form of denying the antecedent
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1724:These arguments are invalid? No, not all of them.
1649:Either way, no counter argument would ever work.
1434:Q, in place of a correct, true, premise, Q -: -->
1411:Q, in place of a correct, true, premise, Q -: -->
793:that there is no time for -- not "waiting", but
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1581:You stole my candy so you should be executed.
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708:Very good! On other hand, the argument does
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1666:No, none of that is worth mentioning. --
1479:why don't you veto the congress decision?
753:than lack of time is obviously false. --
1497:be_president(X) ≡ can_veto(Congress, X)
1188:Actually, in DA, it should actually be:
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1398:if it is a bug, then it is an insect
768:Or another interpretation could be:
101:This article is within the scope of
834:if we had time would coyness be OK"
38:It is of interest to the following
1810:Mid-importance Philosophy articles
1743:Easy eample: Truth and Falsehood.
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1790:12:01, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
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1086:The premise is most certainly
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1621:Another possibility would be:
1597:Q is false because P is false
1568:Q is false because O is false
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288:This is a horrible article!
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1815:Start-Class logic articles
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1638:You need to state a reason
1604:Is this worth mentioning?
1575:If responded differently:
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1230:16:47, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
1197:I don't have a boyfriend.
1142:I don't have a boyfriend.
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840:. The poet means that the
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149:project's importance scale
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1749:How about a coin toss?
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160:Associated task forces:
275:not P, therefore not Q
205:is a double page with
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104:WikiProject Philosophy
28:This article is rated
265:, which also implies
180:
1000:William M. Connolley
215:non sequitur (logic)
207:Non sequitur (logic)
1632:If O, and P, then Q
1594:If O, and P, then Q
1565:If O, and P, then Q
848:of many reasons. —
601:To His Coy Mistress
253:. No, because then
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114:general discussion
34:content assessment
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294:— Preceding
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267:If Q, then P
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40:WikiProjects
1688:—Preceding
1334:in form. --
1244:—Preceding
1147:—Preceding
1062:—Preceding
661:—Preceding
648:and only if
358:—Preceding
263:, P, then Q
261:and only if
229:Somaticvibe
30:Start-class
1799:Categories
1737:Not true.
1384:Discussion
1378:Atethnekos
1343:Discussion
1337:Atethnekos
1024:suggested.
795:having sex
791:what it is
120:Philosophy
109:philosophy
59:Philosophy
1320:Mark.camp
1306:Mark.camp
985:Zach99998
951:Obscurans
911:271828182
824:, not as
778:271828182
687:obviously
679:obviously
675:obviously
636:271828182
629:" (Not B)
434:271828182
388:271828182
344:271828182
219:Cuiviénen
217:should. —
1778:unsigned
1756:unsigned
1690:unsigned
1222:Chicopac
1149:unsigned
1054:Chicopac
1021:as it is
937:Isilanes
850:Isilanes
712:valid.
653:Chicopac
608:Isilanes
583:unsigned
360:unsigned
296:unsigned
279:Isilanes
257:becomes
1477:Voter:
1246:undated
1135:well...
1064:undated
663:undated
315:Ultan42
147:on the
1710:Mrwojo
1501:Rursus
237:no. --
36:scale.
1508:borkÂł
1469:"If"?
1437:valid
1414:valid
1402:while
751:other
683:other
239:Ybbor
186:Logic
64:Logic
1786:talk
1764:talk
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1004:talk
989:talk
975:few.
866:talk
842:only
832:Only
803:talk
759:talk
729:talk
710:seem
695:talk
657:talk
591:talk
570:talk
557:only
548:also
438:talk
392:talk
368:talk
334:Twey
319:talk
304:talk
277:. —
259:If,
1242:)
1110:not
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906:iff
902:iff
846:one
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561:how
139:Mid
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