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answered which left me unaware of the seriousness of the problem. Believing i had explained the misunderstanding leaving me free of any accusations i went ahead and deleted the comment under my friends stating how the above was a case of meatpuppetry. This case was a simple misunderstanding which will not happen again as i now am aware of the different defenitions. Due to the fact that i on this page will probably not be taken seriously again, i will not post any more on this talk page, i do however suggest that the discussion should be continued below, preferiably in a new section, and that this incident should not be further commented. I do want you to keep in mind the arguments that i have made, being generally:
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deal out of that, but i fail to see how it is a conflict when there are about 20 000 000 scandinavians as opposed to roughly 300 000 icelanders. I do however know for a fact that there are a majority of people in the english speaking world using draug instead of draugr. As it was prevously noted old norse is perhaps in some cases the lingua franca of norse mythology. A draug is however more of a folkloric being and that definition is therefore not valid to this word. I certanly believe that most scholary articles about mythology use draugr. Not all, but probably most. And that is okay, but i strongly believe this wikipedia article should focus on the folkloric character.
1187:– The administrator who moved the page from Draugr to Draug based on the above very brief discussion declines to revert the move, and I am accordingly beginning a new discussion. English-language scholarship uses the Old Norse names for almost all elements of Scandinavian mythology and Old Norse literature, rather than either the modern Icelandic names (that usually vary by having final -ur instead of -r) or the modern continental Scandinavian names (Norwegian, Danish, Swedish; these do not have the final -r). Since this article is primarily about the Old Norse draugar (plural form of
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apologized for their behavior and has withdrawn from this discussion, so I don't think any further action is required until more disruption occurs, which I think is unlikely here. I'd have rather had KnutfAen continue to participate at this discussion, since they were (essentially) the sole dissenting voice thus far in this debate, but participation in this discussion is voluntary and I don't blame them for wanting to put all of this behind them.
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than a beeing in norse mythology. trolls and nøkks are not spelled in their old norse form and neither should draug. On the internett the term draug is far more used, both in general and scholar articles, and is so as well in every day vocabulary, which clearly shows that even if the "expert" opinion
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Had this been advertised anywhere I looked, I would have objected. Old Norse is the academic lingua franca for discussing ancient and medieval
Scandinavian matters in English; in academic contexts, neither the modern continental Scandinavian forms (which drop final -r) nor the modern Icelandic (which
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They are indeed my friends that i contacted to get their opinion on the matter, but we all used the same computer in order to do so. Since they did not have a wikipedia user they created one then before commenting. Sorry for only pointing this out now, but i was unaware of what an IP adress actually
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To begin with i can clarify that BrianAdam753 and
Sheffieldguy are friends of mine that i contacted because of their expertice in this fields. I guess they didn't have a wikipedia account then. I see your point about the conflict between icelandic and scandinavian. and i weren't trying to make a big
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the policy for reference; sometimes editors don't realize we frown on anything but neutral notifications (which I hope mine were, and please feel free to similarly notify anyone you feel I left out; I tried to notify anyone who had spoken up above regarding either the merger or the move, and anyone
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It should also be noted that i gave you almost a full two weeks to object to this change. The only reason that i edited the text prior to the namechange was that i was unaware of the difficulties that were due to the original page that was now a redirect and that i believe has nothing to do what so
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I must apologize for not understanding that simply notifying other people is against wikipedia guidelines. I was trying to explain why i thought it was not the fact in this incident and even asked questions on the definition and why that was canvassing. I feel however that these questions were not
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I completely agree with the supporting reasons listed above. Especially when prominently talking about the draugr from the sagas. Also, the oppositional reasons don't really make any sense, to me, and I'd point out my arguents, but this being a survey, I'll keep it terse. Yngvadottir makes a good
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I strongly mean that the english name for this seacreature is not "Draugr" and "Draugar". These are merely the old norse names popularized by games like Skyrim, where the creatures don't share any resemblance to the ones from scandinavian folklore. The correct english term should be just like the
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verification of accounts. Unless there are any new accounts created that are suspected to be meat- or sockpuppets of KnutfAen, the case should be closed. (If any do pop up, and I sincerely hope they don't, a new SPI can be filed that will be archived with the old one when closed.) KnutfAen has
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when the article on the later continental folklore was merged into it. There is no reason in scholarship to overturn this consensus; the form without final -r is not an anglicization, but a foreign-language form, and while it is appropriate to use it in sections of the article about
Norwegian
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what you did. Your response is to just say "all I did was notify them". Your suggestion that you didn't know that they had to create accounts is also more flimsy. My hope was that this discussion could move on, and everyone could just forget your disruption of the discussion and no longer be
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Iceland definitely speaks a
Scandinavian language, and I would also count it part of Scandinavia, but all speculations about editors' identities apart, the conflict between modern Icelandic and continental Germanic forms is one of the reasons the Old Norse forms are used in English-language
2236:; all from page 105) than with the aforementioned Irish Gaelic terms, and so I perhaps hastily removed mention of those. Though, I now notice that Henderson mentions the same etymology that was in the article and from the dictionary cited before (on page 106): "M'Bain gives the variants
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I feel like there may be a sockpuppet in here somewhere. I noticed that
Sheffieldguy`s account was created and then he went straight to this page (and for his first edit) immediately voted Oppose. What do you guys think? With all due respect and trying to assume good faith,
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would appear in Irish Gaelic or how the differing diphthongs would be rendered therein, but if MacBain believes they came from OE term rather than from the ON term directly (possible, I suppose, but I am not exactly sure), then I believe the removal was completely fine.
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ever with this. As you can see a lot of people share my opinion, and as previously stated a lot of you are icelandic and probably just don't want the scandinavian name to be the correct one, even though it is the one most widely used and in general the only correct one.
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form, the term most used is draug. How is adding ar at the end instead of s english? I also notice a lot of you people here are icelandic, and therefore not as familiar with the english naming. A draug is folklore, not mythology, and therefore not written with an
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I don't believe i get what you are saying. I'm not saying anything. I'm responding to FunkMonk saying it was weird to make a wikipedia article only because of this. I was saying how they probably did not mind doing so in order to give their oppinion on the
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scholarship. As to the previous move discussion, you apparently did not realize it would be controversial and thus failed to notify either the relevant wikiprojects or previous editors of the article. Thus no discussion took place, and here we are.
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A bit weird to get friends to make accounts just for this. And as for nationality, shouldn't make a difference, I'm of
Faroese descent myself, but I still think the English common name is more appropriate on the English Knowledge (XXG).
2027:-the scholars may use the r ending, but normally most english people that have heard of it do not use this. This raises an important point on what actually is the english term. The one used by experts or the one used by the majority?
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As I said on your user talk page, I'm having more trouble assuming good faith on your part. I've already explained, in detail, how you violated our canvassing policy, and quoted to you exactly where our meatpuppetry policy prohibits
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At this point, I'd really like for people to focus any further comments on the article and their thoughts on the move. Just a personal appeal so that this discussion can be closed as cleanly as possible without further drama. --
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I am extremely suspicious of this... ...Perhaps I should Get a
Checkuser to check the IP they came from. I feel that this Is a definite case of Possible sockpuppetry to get into and maybe launch an SPI investigation on.
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form, Even lingua francas like latin and greek. It appears most people here are basing their conclusion on their own oppinions. I doubt anyone here supporting the proposed namechange are specialized in the area.
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Has anyone actually looked for what is prevalent in
English literature, per the common name policy? Draug gets far more hits in Google scholar and books, so the argument presented above seems invalid.
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The same with BrianAdam753. I've assumed good faith and welcomed them both. It's possible that they previously edited the article as IPs. Off-wiki canvassing is another possibility.
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1872:. I have struck their comments above, but have taken no action against KnutfAen for now. I don't want this incident to distract from the discussion about the move itself. --
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from the
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of KnutfAen. Per his own admission that is essentially what they are. I don't believe that this was done out of malice, but out of an unfamiliarity of both
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folklore, it is not the common term for the draugar in the sagas, nor the term used in
English-language scholarship. The move should therefore be reverted.
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1555:. I note that some of the Google scholar hits on "draug sagas" are on the possessive "draug's" or on forms indicating what the plural is, like "draug r".
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I've marked the SPI for closure. I don't think there's any need for further comment on the SPI, it has gone as far as it needs to go since we've even had
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I'm going to perform the move, but to preserve the discussion that was previously at the Draug talk page, I'll copy and paste it in the below section. --
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changes it to -ur) are usually used. The usage in gaming is tangential; as noted above, in this instance they don't even resemble the Old Norse draugar.
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It probably takes an average of 20 seconds to make an account though, but if anybody wants to check it i don't mind. It's just more work for you then :)
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Much as I respect Brian Adams, I respect some supporters more. As I understand wiki policy in these cases, the original spelling makes better sense. --
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FWIW, I think the reconstructed PIE term is now more commonly translated as "falsehood", with "phantom" being the evolved Proto-Germanic meaning.
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has anyone even red my comment above? How is sockpuppetry when the reason the ip adress was the same was that we all wrote on the same computer?
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They, along with what Henderson deems to be an erroneous etymology thereof (the contraction of a term that means "a druid's death"), appear in
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Hello, I just want to let everyone know that if anyone still needs to comment on the SPI, to do so on the SPI investigation, Right here==: -->
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As far as I can tell, the combined weight of scholarship on the topic throughout time and its most famous pop culture appearance (Skyrim's
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I totally agree. As a scolar of germanic culture i have never heard that expression with the r ending before. Why was this even proposed?!
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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2302:. I do not know if it occurs in the first edition, and there is no indication of where in the Old English corpus it supposedly occurs.
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I did not make them do it. I simply notified them of this ongoing discussion because i thought it would be of interrest to them.
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I've got to point out that the above three responses are just patent nonsense. They're probably the work of a single user.
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such sensibly laid out reasoning. The alternative page remains a redirect, so no user is getting left behind.--
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2024:-a draug is folklore, not mythology. The lingua franca of norse mythology should therefore not be used here.
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KnutfAen, what you're saying you did is inappropriate canvassing. Please read the policy page I linked to.
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Yngvadottir's reasons for sticking with the Old Norse spelling makes sense to me. Also with the advent of
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I failed to note before that Henderson's note had more to do with the Scottish Gaelic terms (seemingly:
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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A better search is "draugr sagas", since draugar occur in the sagas rather than in Eddic poetry or the
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Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with
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1523:. Not all results without "Norse" are directly relevant. Further, not all results are in English. á›
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I also would have objected to this. The article needs to be moved back. There is no "English name".
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along with the following forms from the work of someone simply mentioned as "Armstrong", perhaps
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Since no one has commented on this so far i'm just going to assume everybody's ok with it.
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Dreegh not Draugr, but almost certinaly he took the name from Nordic traditions.--
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Likewise, "draug mythology" has far more hits in scholar than "draugr mythology".
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
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I am wondering, What is everybody's take on starting a SPI investigation?
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Some old page history that used to be at the title "Draug" is now at
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dedicated to improving Knowledge (XXG)'s coverage of the topics of
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Happy_Attack_Dog "The Ultimate Knowledge (XXG) Guard Dog"
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Happy_Attack_Dog "The Ultimate Knowledge (XXG) Guard Dog"
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Happy_Attack_Dog "The Ultimate Knowledge (XXG) Guard Dog"
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form has become the common English form of the name, per
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It should be noted that before the article was moved to
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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draugr, dreag, and potential Celtic derivatives thereof
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I did, however, encounter it in the second edition of
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Norse history and culture
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1860:I've blocked both BrianAdam753 and Sheffieldguy as
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1155:. No further edits should be made to this section.
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2113:. No further edits should be made to this section.
2046:Knowledge (XXG):Sockpuppet investigations/KnutfAen
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1354:as a linguistics expert i can clearly state that
1131:New requested move discussion: return article to
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1951:side-tracked, but you keep sabotaging that. --
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525:. This project provides a central approach to
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1985:. Don't do it again. --
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30:This is the
2165:this fellow
2111:move review
1912:meatpuppets
1862:meatpuppets
1786:Yngvadottir
1730::bloodofox:
1661:Yngvadottir
1621:Yngvadottir
1587:Yngvadottir
1557:Yngvadottir
1517:draug Norse
1419:Mark viking
1384::bloodofox:
1275::bloodofox:
1258:Yngvadottir
1202:Yngvadottir
1153:move review
1088::bloodofox:
1072:Yngvadottir
942:WikiProject
533:the article
322:Scandinavia
311:WikiProject
159:free images
42:not a forum
2380:Categories
2179:apparition
2173:such term
1870:WP:CANVASS
1830:.
1553:Prose Edda
1485:Discussion
958:discussion
671:Paranormal
654:paranormal
626:Paranormal
336:discussion
320:, both in
18:Talk:Draug
2213:therein.
2148:this edit
2065:CheckUser
1583:this edit
1525:LokiClock
554:Mythology
528:Mythology
477:Mythology
328:in 1397.
99:if needed
82:Be polite
32:talk page
2364:B.Bryant
2345:GwydionM
2322:Thanks,
2048:Thanks,
2032:KnutfAen
1930:KnutfAen
1916:FunkMonk
1898:KnutfAen
1848:KnutfAen
1801:KnutfAen
1772:KnutfAen
1712:FunkMonk
1676:KnutfAen
1606:KnutfAen
1539:FunkMonk
1499:FunkMonk
1471:Svartalf
1319:KnutfAen
1309:folklore
1239:. Since
1029:KnutfAen
1014:KnutfAen
963:Folklore
946:folklore
917:Folklore
210:730Â days
197:Archives
67:get help
40:This is
38:article.
2326:Espreon
2264:or the
2130:draugr'
1948:exactly
1866:WP:SOCK
1799:matter.
1467:Support
1449:Support
1432:Support
1401:Support
1314:foreign
1288:Support
1271:Support
1254:Support
1193:draugur
892:on the
803:on the
776:Iceland
767:Iceland
723:Iceland
698:on the
581:on the
368:on the
253:C-class
165:WPÂ refs
153:scholar
2270:draugr
2268:of ON
2254:draugr
2234:dreige
2187:draugr
1983:WP:TPO
1726:draugr
1656:Here's
1436:Wetman
1411:draugr
1409:, the
1405:Skyrim
1352:Oppose
1333:Oppose
1305:Oppose
1292:Haukur
1215:Survey
1189:draugr
1185:Draugr
1133:Draugr
1117:Graham
443:Norway
434:Norway
393:Norway
259:scale.
137:Google
36:Draugr
2280:Notes
2262:dréag
2250:dréag
2246:driug
2242:drèag
2238:dreag
2230:dreug
2222:driug
2218:dreag
2203:dréag
2199:drĹŤgh
2175:dréag
2142:driug
2138:drèag
2134:dréag
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