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1026:"Bill C-69, an Act to enact the Impact Assessment Act and the Canadian Energy Regulator Act, to amend the Navigation Protection Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts On February 8, 2018, the Government introduced Bill C-69, an Act to enact the Impact Assessment Act and the Canadian Energy Regulator Act, to amend the Navigation Protection Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts. Bill C-69 received Royal Assent on June 21, 2019. The Impact Assessment Act, the Canadian Energy Regulator Act and the Navigation Protection Act came into force August 28, 2019."
1609:
federal government, depending on the language of the
Canadian they are dealing with. A francophone Canadian has the constitutional and statutory right to have communications with the federal government in French, and an anglophone Canadian has the constitutional and statutory right to have communications with the federal government in English. The names of the federal departments are dual, to fulfill those obligations. Both the English and the French names hold "significant weight" in Canada.
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1139:, "If the subject of the article is closely associated with a non-English language, a single foreign language equivalent name can be included in the lead sentence". Consensus at this page as well as what appears to be others in the Wikiproject as a whole, is that French is always included alongside the English names of government entities, as it meets the MOS criteria of being closely associated with the subject. Thanks —
600:
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2426:(invited by the bot) But either way is OK. It's an English enclyclopedia and a majority Enlish-speaking country (Canada) has an English name for it and I don't see a strong reason to include a Non-English name. I don't agree with arguments that the guidelines say "yes"....IMO what they are oriented for is mono-lingual non-english speaking countries where the non-English name is THE official name. Sincerely,
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1032:"The Environmental Protection and Enhancement Act (2000) "supports and promotes the protection, enhancement, and wise use of the environment. The Act's individual regulations cover a wide range of activities, from beverage container recycling and pesticide sales, potable water, to wastewater and storm drainage.""
2499:
provided services in French to French-speaking citizens if there was some particular French aspect; otherwise, French-speaking
Canadians had to try to access services from their federal government in English. Knowledge should not rely on arguments based on that type of linguistic prejudice and discrimination.
1978:, for the same reasons Cessaune said above. I consider it unobtrusive on the article and the co-official French name is a likely source of interest or searches for a wide variety of reasons, including coming to Knowledge to confirm information about what exactly a particular organizational name refers to. --
2377:
has been satisfied in the minds of most people in this RfC. Yes, there is a case to be made that the translation is unnecesssary, but the decision to remove it makes a trivial difference, IMO. If there isn't a problem, we shouldn't be trying to fix one. I don't see a problem big enough to warrant the
2494:
That does not mean that every article about Canada needs to have French in the lead. We're talking about including the full official name of federal departments in the lead, rather than just half the official name. That bilingual official name is required by the
Constitution and federal law, which
2230:
English and French — it's obvious that neither is intended to be the translation of the other, but equally official names, one for each of Canada's official languages. Moreover, this is standard practice for
Canadian articles, so I'm not sure what this RfC is supposed to solve; what's the outcome if
1890:
Canada's official languages are
English and French. This is a department of the Government of Canada, therefore both the English and French names are on an equal playing field. The subject of the article is clearly associated with a non-English language (French), therefore I think this satisfies the
1608:
name. I don't know how many times I have to repeat: as a matter of
Canadian constitutional law, and federal statute law, a federal ministry is required to operate in both English and French. The English and French names of a federal department are equally authoritative and are used equally by the
1806:
states: "If the subject of the article is closely associated with a non-English language, a single foreign language equivalent name can be included in the lead sentence, usually in parentheses", and the example given is a city located in an non-English speaking county. However, when examining the
1502:
The WP policy is: "If the subject of the article is closely associated with a non-English language, a single foreign language equivalent name can be included in the lead sentence". To determine if there is close association with a non-English language, you look at the usage. Since as a matter of
1235:
First, you write that "both languages share co-equal status and the enabling legislation which incorporates the department". Could you point to a consensus on
Knowledge that states that when this occurs, Knowledge must must add all languages to the lead of its articles? I've already shown you a
2482:
The subject of this article is a federal department which has a bilingual name, and which operates equally in both
English and French across Canada, as required by the Constitution of Canada and federal statute. That means that the subject of the article is closely associated with a non-English
2498:
The argument that French should only be included if the article specifically refers to francophones is exactly the type of argument that led to the decision to entrench bilingualism in the
Constitution of Canada. It used to be that the federal government operated primarily in English, and only
2475:
As previously noted by WildComet, it is is wrong to say that the
Department does not maintain French versions on Twitter, Facebook, etc. As shown by WildComet's links, the Department maintains French versions of all those media streams, parallel to the English media streams, as required by the
1022:
1) I would like to propose an update of the "6.1 Bill C-38" section of this page. Since most of the environment-related acts that underwent major changes under under Bill C-38, underwent another series of major changes under Bill C-69, I would like to propose a rewrite of this section with the
2490:
It is irrelevant to say that there is nothing specifically about Quebec in this article. The article is about a federal Department which is required by the Constitution of Canada and federal law to provide services in either language to Canadians across the country. That constitutional and
2113:
is about a non-English language. There is no text about Quebec, or about how this department uniquely impacts Canada's French people. This seems terribly unencyclopedic. The translation should be more than just cosmetic, and should indicate to readers that the translation actually has some
1503:
Canadian constitutional and statutory law (note, not simply policy), both the English and French versions of the name of a federal department have equal authority, that means there is a "close association" between the French and English versions for the purposes of the WP policy.
501:
1623:
Reply to Magnolia 677: I'm not sure what you mean by a "non-English topic". Federal departments are required to operate in both languages. This article is therefore about an English and a French topic, and the name of the department in both languages should be included.
1834:
My concern is that at Knowledge, we establish our own policies about what does and does not get included in our articles, and the language policies of any particular government or company should not automatically be interpreted as a Knowledge requirement.
2310:: the close association is that French is an official language of Canada (and the content of the article is about Canada), and the department makes its logo, website and even social media content equally available in both English and French. This meets
1410:
Reply: If you look at the upper right corner, there is the link to the French version, identical in content. The one you happen to land on depends on which language you're using, but the English webpage has no more status than the French one.
153:
1585:
Actually, no. A translated name should be added to the lead when the article is primarily about a non-English topic. For example, a city in a non-English speaking country like Ukraine. This article is not about a non-English topic.
1819:
tells editors to "Be wary of cluttering the first sentence with a long parenthesis containing alternative spellings, pronunciations, etc., which can make the sentence difficult to actually read; this information should be placed
2486:
The fact that Canada has a majority anglophone population is not relevant. The Constitution of Canada and federal law requires that the Department operate equally in both English and French, and provide its services in either
961:
This reads like Harper wrote it himself. I came to this wiki to see what kind of damage bill-c38 really did to this country and all I get is Harper speak. What did this bill ACTUALLY do to the lakes, waterways and forests?
1360:. Remember a few years ago indigenous names were spammed everywhere as well. Accessibility should be our primary concern over filling the lead with text that is non-understandable to the vast majority of English readers.
1438:
Reply: The federal government provides services in English and in French, not generally dual in one webpage, to make it more convenient for the reader. However, the name of the department is bilingual, under the
1389:, all federal government institutions are bilingual, and both the French and the English names are official. The French name for the department is a "closely associated" non-English term, and should be included.
1474:. Nor do they have to hunt for the French name: all federal government websites have a button to toggle to the French version of the website, normally located in the upper right-hand corner, as in this case.
1667:
And then, coming back to Canada and looking at Knowledge articles on other federal institutions, there is the same pattern of the French name being included in the lead line. Here's some top-level examples:
1307:
I agree the French name should be included in parentheses after the bolded English name. It's the other half of the official name and is likely to come up to potential searchers in a wide variety of contexts.
2479:
The Knowledge policy of LEADLANG states: "If the subject of the article is closely associated with a non-English language", then it is appropriate to include the non-English language in the opening sentence.
1642:, another bilingual country. Where the name of the article is in English, the Irish equivalent is given in the lead line. It's exactly the same here in Canada, and the Knowledge articles should reflect it:
1381:: "If the subject of the article is closely associated with a non-English language, a single foreign language equivalent name can be included in the lead sentence, usually in parentheses." Under the
1211:) sequence in the lead sentence and there is a clear consensus. If you feel it is not appropriate to include the French name in these kinds of articles, I encourage you to start a discussion over at
44:
1567:
I think Magnolia is trying to say that the name is Ukranian, and the English version holds virtually no weight in Ukraine, as opposed to the English version in this case, which seems to be the
147:
1754:- This article is about a department of the government of Canada, a country where federal services are offered in both English and French. The department's website reflects this, offering an
2553:
2275:
May I ask what the connection is between the article needing to discuss Quebec in the text and an official French name appearing in the intro? I don't see why one depends on the other.
750:
2035:
as LEADLANG was developed with reducing clutter in mind - limiting inclusion of foreign languages to a single language closely associated with the subject is a reasonable limitation. —
1899:
Do not include foreign equivalents in the text of the lead sentence for alternative names or for particularly lengthy names, as this clutters the lead sentence and impairs readability.
1888:
If the subject of the article is closely associated with a non-English language, a single foreign language equivalent name can be included in the lead sentence, usually in parentheses.
2586:
2091:
2076:
1029:
2) I would also like to propose removing the following sentence that use to appear under "Canadian Environmental Assessment Act (1992, c. 37)" in the list of Related legislation:
1135:
this is English Knowledge but French is an official language of Canada and thus the department. It is incorporated in both languages and both names are considered official. Per
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1212:
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Reply: the French version is not the "translated name" — it's an equally authoritative French name, of exactly the same status as the English name, as set out by the
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1167:. Just because the Canadian federal government offers services in English and French does not mean Knowledge needs to add the translation. Please revert your edit.
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establishes a close association between the English and French names. That is not the case with other Canadian topics. A slippery slope argument has no place here.
1286:
You mentioned previously that the department offers services in French. This would meet the "closely associated" requirement to include it as outlined in LEADLANG. —
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has more French-Canadian content than this article, and according to Canadian federal law, its label must include Canadian French. Should the first sentence of
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If the "close association" is simply that French is the official language of Canada, should every Knowledge article about Canada have a French translation?
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is: "Chernivtsi Oblast (Ukrainian: Чернівецька область, Chernivetska oblast) is an oblast (province) in western Ukraine, bordering on Romania and Moldova".
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2081:
1692:. The same principle applies here, where the French name of the department, with equal authority as the English name, should be included in the lead line.
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responsible for coordinating environmental policies and programs, as well as preserving and enhancing the natural environment and renewable resources.
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associated with French Canada, because it is associated with Canada, and as stated before, Canada is neither English nor French, but both (and more).
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responsible for coordinating environmental policies and programs, as well as preserving and enhancing the natural environment and renewable resources
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Previous discussions about "close association" regard the content of the article, and this article has no content about anything French. See above.
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1163:--of a city in the Ukraine--leads me to believe you may have misunderstood the policy. More importantly, the name of this department is clearly
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Remove non English text from lead. What is the point of cluttering the first sentence with non understandable language for our readers as per
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The example about the Ukrainian city is just that - an example. I'm not sure it can be construed as applying strictly to geographic locations.
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Magnolia677: "If readers wish to know the translated name, let them visit the department's website. Even there, they'd have to hunt for it."
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2209:. Because it's how people know it, because Canada is really bilingual when it comes to these things, and because that's how sources use it.
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2226:, per Cessaune and Wildcomet. I'll additionally draw attention to the logo, used on Knowledge itself, that includes the ministry's name in
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removal of French from the lead pages of multiple articles (because yeah, that's the inevitable outcome if your proposal goes through).
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1431:: "Environment and Climate Change Canada/Environnement et Changement climatique Canada"? Clearly, the very department in question has
1326:: "Environment and Climate Change Canada/Environnement et Changement climatique Canada"? Clearly, the very department in question has
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The title of this RfC is factually inaccurate. The French version is not a "translation" of the name of the federal department; it
2446:- This article already exists in French and there is also no need to include the English name in the French article as far as I know
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1356:. When doing FA reviews the lead jumble is usually removed removed....that said the lead clutter frequently makes it back in like
1104:
I'm not sure why you re-inserted French translations of this government department to the lead of the article. I removed them per
1330:, which is translated identically into two languages. Why does English Knowledge feel compelled to provide the translated name...
1276:
is that "An edit has presumed consensus until it is disputed or reverted". Inclusion of the French titles spans hundreds of edits.
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669:
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1334:? If readers wish to know the translated name, let them visit the department's website. Even there, they'd have to hunt for it.
996:
Why is this article rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale? Is it because some content needs to be expanded a lot?
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2472:. Both the French and the English versions of the department are official. Referring to it as a "translation" is misleading.
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is a Crown Corporation of the NWT government. As you know, the NWT has 11 official languages. Should the lead sentence of
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You seem to have confused the policies of the Canadian government, with the policies of Knowledge. They are not the same.
1279:
Regarding NWT Power, it does not appear to offer services in 11 languages. Including all 11 languages would not align with
1035:
This sentence didn't have anything to do with the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act (1992, c. 37) in the first place.
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that French is an official language of Canada: there is a second half to my first sentence. I've no idea what to do about
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1995:. This is what has been done of every single article concerning the Canadian government, as all organizations have both
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We aren't changing the guideline in this RfC, we are simply deciding how to interpret it. Change it in a different RfC.
1811:, there is nothing to suggest any unique association with the French language or the French-speaking people of Canada.
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of the departments listed from A to N (I was too lazy to look at the rest) included the French title in parenthesis.
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both languages share co-equal status and the enabling legislation which incorporates the department is in
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The French name of the department should be included as currently set out, for the following reasons:
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articles on environment-related topics, as well as to ensure that environment articles are properly
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Really? Aspirin? Aspirin itself is not closely associated with French Canada in the way that a
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and related subjects on Knowledge. To participate, help improve this article or visit the
1552:
You keep referring to that, but I don’t see the significance. Can you elaborate, please?
951:
Why does the EC link to the FIP? This is confusing and I propose this be changed. Thanks
2257:
I wrote above: "These French translations are ubiquitous on articles related to Canada:
2238:
keep their French name? If there's a question here, surely we should be asking it about
2077:
Knowledge talk:Manual of Style/Lead section/Archive 14#Foreign languages in lead section
1996:
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I can't answer the question because the premise is false. The close association is not
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1916:, the outlier, contains the French name in a note as opposed to directly in the text.
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policy, which was created by editors and not the government. I'm not concerned with
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If you are looking for ways to improve this article, we recommend checking out our
2027:. Inclusion aligns with the close association requirement outlined in Knowledge's
1762:. However, their Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and Instagram appear only in English (
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is associated with a non-English language. My concern with this article is that
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as above: there's two equal, official titles, one in English and one in French.
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2170:. Not on English Canada, not on French Canada, but on Canada. The article isn't
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is associated with a non-English language. My concern with this article is that
2012:
1783:. This is a Canadian government service which is provided in English and French.
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low and this part should be made concise or at least split into two sentences:
1427:
Magnolia677: "If it's the other half of the official name, why isn't the title
2016:
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1203:
Every other article relating to a Canadian government department follows the "
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1999:. The official name of the department is notable information. In addition to
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Knowledge talk:Manual of Style/Lead section/Archive 18#Translations of topic
2082:
Knowledge talk:Manual of Style/Lead section#LEADLANG and number of languages
2032:
1952:
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1769:
1638:
Just by way of comparison, take a look at the following wikipages about the
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1019:
For transparency purpose: I'm an employee of the Impact Assessment Agency
2060:- Previous discussions about the definition of "closely associated" (per
1825:
These French translations are ubiquitous on articles related to Canada:
2522:(FWIW: Swiss federal government pages...3 extra languages, not just 1).
2231:
editors decide "No" here, that ECCC only lists the name in English but
2123:
2119:
1901:
The current sentence, IMO, is not lengthy enough to impair readability.
1015:
Updates following the coming into force of Bill C-69 on August 28, 2019
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2261:
mentions Quebec just once, yet has a French translation in the lead."
2008:
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because I've never heard of it and made no effort to research it. —
1829:
mentions Quebec just once, yet has a French translation in the lead.
1765:
1736:
Should the first sentence of the lead contain a French translation?
2357:). Should it have a French translation here on English Knowledge?
2152:
is. Nobody thinks aspirin and thinks French Canada, or even Canada.
2097:
Talk:British Columbia#Request for comment on first sentence of lead
1352:.... this not some sort of alternative name but just a translation
2048:
1322:
If it's the other half of the official name, why isn't the title
2131:
The definition of "closely associated" needs clearer defining.
1377:
I agree that the French should be included in parentheses, per
2548:
tags on this page, but the references will not show without a
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15:
2072:
Talk:Kara-Khanid Khanate#RfC about the languages in the lead
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1771:), with no mention of the French name for their department.
2156:
A common theme in these discussions regards how closely
2105:
A common theme in these discussions regards how closely
1435:, which is translated identically into two languages."
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articles on Canada, not just this one specifically. —
977:
the sub article is just vague. will close discussion.
160:
2166:
Yes, but no. The content of the article comments on
702:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
512:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
276:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
1213:Knowledge talk:Canadian Wikipedians' notice board
2314:. Separately, readability of the first sentence
2023:was also passed by Parliament in French and the
1403:Magnolia677: "I've already shown you a webpage
1112:. Is this not "English" Knowledge? Thank you.
33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
1283:, which prescribes "a single foreign language".
2587:High-importance Governments of Canada articles
1870:Environnement et Changement climatique Canada
1706:Based on this, put the French name in there.
1571:name and holds significant weight in Canada.
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8:
2087:Talk:Steinbach, Manitoba#Translation in lead
1906:structure of the Canadian federal government
2491:statutory mandate is not limited to Quebec.
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2150:literal department of Canada's government
2577:High-importance Canada-related articles
2476:Constitution of Canada and federal law.
1468:Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms
1441:Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms
1383:Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms
1246:Northwest Territories Power Corporation
1242:Northwest Territories Power Corporation
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405:to improve Knowledge's coverage of the
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2642:Low-importance Climate change articles
2582:C-Class Governments of Canada articles
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1517:The example given right after that at
2191:I don't know. These are my thoughts.
2178:to French Canada, because it doesn't
1858:Environment and Climate Change Canada
1809:Environment and Climate Change Canada
1248:include 10 non-English translations?
25:Environment and Climate Change Canada
7:
2612:Low-importance organization articles
1732:RfC about French translation in lead
819:This article is within the scope of
716:Knowledge:WikiProject Climate change
696:This article is within the scope of
611:This article is within the scope of
506:This article is within the scope of
270:This article is within the scope of
2647:WikiProject Climate change articles
2602:Mid-importance Environment articles
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719:Template:WikiProject Climate change
621:and the subjects encompassed by it.
526:Knowledge:WikiProject Organizations
207:It is of interest to the following
23:for discussing improvements to the
2617:WikiProject Organizations articles
2351:has 100 outlets in Quebec (sorry,
1921:I think these are enough reasons.
1038:Thank you for you consideration!
529:Template:WikiProject Organizations
14:
2021:departmental enabling legislation
1997:English and French applied titles
1240:that is English only. Also, the
437:Knowledge:WikiProject Environment
335:WikiProject Governments of Canada
2164:is about a non-English language.
2114:significance within the article.
1959:, from the previous discussion.
1929:) 19:44, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
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45:Click here to start a new topic.
2667:Mid-importance Climate articles
2657:Mid-importance Weather articles
2637:C-Class Climate change articles
2572:C-Class Canada-related articles
2003:, the department maintains a :
1600:Reply to Cessaune: No, this is
900:This article has been rated as
736:This article has been rated as
647:This article has been rated as
546:This article has been rated as
457:This article has been rated as
310:This article has been rated as
2174:French Canada, and it doesn't
2162:absolutely none of the content
2111:absolutely none of the content
992:Quality scale for this article
427:and leave any messages at the
1:
2607:C-Class organization articles
2534:13:32, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
2470:is the name of the department
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2438:15:37, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
2414:20:33, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
2388:01:20, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
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2336:23:00, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
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1702:21:37, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
1690:Royal Canadian Mounted Police
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1295:21:44, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
1258:21:29, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
1224:21:19, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
1177:20:45, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
1148:20:36, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
1122:16:08, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
1071:Sounds good. I also inserted
922:This article is supported by
880:Knowledge:WikiProject Weather
710:and see a list of open tasks.
520:and see a list of open tasks.
332:This article is supported by
284:and see a list of open tasks.
42:Put new text under old text.
2672:WikiProject Weather articles
2597:C-Class Environment articles
2592:All WikiProject Canada pages
2512:13:31, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
2233:Department of Finance Canada
2025:logo features both languages
1904:When I looked over the page
1087:14:21, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
1058:14:12, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
1010:16:32, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
972:05:21, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
883:Template:WikiProject Weather
290:Knowledge:WikiProject Canada
2627:Low-importance law articles
987:20:09, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
956:15:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
293:Template:WikiProject Canada
50:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
2688:
2158:the content of the article
2126:have a French translation?
2107:the content of the article
906:project's importance scale
742:project's importance scale
699:WikiProject Climate change
653:project's importance scale
552:project's importance scale
463:project's importance scale
425:Knowledge:Contributing FAQ
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2483:language, in my opinion.
1686:Prime Minister of Canada
1656:Health Service Executive
825:, which collaborates on
630:Template:WikiProject Law
1682:Supreme Court of Canada
1644:Constitution of Ireland
1407:that is English only."
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1472:Official Languages Act
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1387:Official Languages Act
925:the Climate task force
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409:. The aim is to write
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197:This article is rated
75:avoid personal attacks
2546:<ref group=NB: -->
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1878:Government of Canada
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1272:My understanding of
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397:environment-related
2552:template (see the
2504:Mr Serjeant Buzfuz
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2001:its French website
1957:Mr Serjeant Buzfuz
1852:for a few reasons.
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1391:Mr Serjeant Buzfuz
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273:WikiProject Canada
203:content assessment
86:dispute resolution
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2359:Magnolia677
2291:Magnolia677
2277:Dan Carkner
2263:Magnolia677
2133:Magnolia677
1980:Dan Carkner
1949:Dan Carkner
1910:all but one
1891:first part.
1837:Magnolia677
1820:elsewhere."
1738:Magnolia677
1588:Magnolia677
1523:Magnolia677
1490:Magnolia677
1354:MOS:BOLDSYN
1336:Magnolia677
1332:in the lead
1310:Dan Carkner
1266:Magnolia677
1250:Magnolia677
1209:French Name
1193:as well as
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1169:Magnolia677
1131:Magnolia677
1114:Magnolia677
755:style guide
619:legal field
434:Environment
419:categorized
407:environment
359:Environment
233:Governments
148:free images
31:not a forum
2566:Categories
2544:There are
2526:Goldsztajn
2064:) include:
1874:department
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1385:, and the
860:Assessment
606:Law portal
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2487:language.
2429:North8000
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2033:MOS:FIRST
1945:WildComet
1817:MOS:FIRST
1791:Franklin!
1290:WildComet
1231:WildComet
1219:WildComet
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1155:WildComet
1143:WildComet
1106:MOS:FIRST
1100:WildComet
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88:if needed
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2380:Cessaune
2193:Cessaune
1961:Cessaune
1943:Pinging
1931:Cessaune
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1897:states:
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1708:Cessaune
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1569:de facto
1470:and the
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1054:contribs
1046:Scleroux
1042:unsigned
753:and our
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2448:Chidgk1
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2058:comment
1876:of the
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904:on the
877:Weather
865:A-Class
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782:Climate
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740:on the
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411:neutral
314:on the
199:C-class
154:WP refs
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1758:and a
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287:Canada
278:Canada
228:Canada
205:scale.
126:Google
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