Talk:Edward IV/Archive 2

145:

grandmother, Cecily Neville. The identity of the mother is lost to history. No one knows who she was. Lady Elizabeth Lucy was put forward as a potential mother and some people have argued Elizabeth Waite was the mother of Lady Elizabeth Lumley. Some also try to argue these two women are in fact the same person. In order to strengthen these arguments historians have, from time to time, tried to argue Elizabeth Lumley was born in 1464 and not 1461. Neither Elizabeth Waite nor Elizabeth Lucy knew Edward IV in 1461 and neither was in a relationship with him at that time. If Lady Elizabeth Lumley, was born in 1464, as your article claims and was subsequently married in 1477 to Sir Thomas Lumley, she would only have been aged 12 at the time. Those who support the idea Edward IV was married or engaged to Dame Eleanor Butler know that the relationship began in either 1462 or 1463. They also try to argue Elizabeth Lumley was born in 1464 in order to make Lady Elizabeth Lumley's date of birth of 1464, post date the Dame Eleanor Butler controversy. Elizabeth Lucy and Elizabeth Waite were two different women. Lady Elizabeth Lumley was born in 1461. She was the child of an unknown woman and Edward IV at a time when we had common law marriage in England. This child was a product of Edward IV's first known sexual relationship. It is most likely the mother died in childbirth. That goes some way to explain why she was brought up by her grandmother Cecily Neville. Your article also makes no reference to a son Edward IV allegedly had with Dame Eleanor in either 1464 or 1468 the year of her death. The boy (Edward of Wigmore) allegedly died in 1468. For completeness the article should not omit this information. The information is from Doubledays Encyclopedia of the Peerage

1050:

this is the idea that Edward dealt an important blow to the power of the barons (not only in defeat of Warwick and seizure of the Duchy of Lancaster but also in various financial and administrative techniques and in the promotion of commoners in government reporting to the king) that paved a way toward Henry VIII's reformation and the civil service of Elizabeth I. Some of these elements are already in the article, but there is scope for more, and for mentioning the ongoing historical debate about their combined significance. I suggest deleting the paraphrasing of Ross that Edward's "reign was ultimately a failure", since the reduction of a whole reign to such a term is unhelpful.

889:

19 pages on Edward's "Great Enterprise" (invasion of France), spanning from 1472 until 1475, while our article has no more than three sentences, beginning in 1475, at the very end of the entire affair; the House of Commons is not mentioned at all despite Ross dedicating 10 pages to "the King and the Commons in Parliament", etc. I do not quite like sprawling articles either but this one is rather lacking. Yet it is miles better than it was the last time I checked. The articles about Edward IV and Henry VI have always stood out as the least developed among English monarchs and I am very happy to see that they are getting some attention too.

362:). This site really doesn't have any "specific, unique feature or information that is not available elsewhere", so it does not qualify for either a citation or external link. Further, its use here is misleading, in that the sentence has three separate facts in it, that Edward rebuilt the chapel, that he was buried in the chapel, and that this burial took place was in 1483, but the Find-a-Grave page only documents one of these three items, the burial place (it gives the death date, not the burial date). We are going to need another source anyhow, so we are better off finding a good one that does the full job. 846:

treatment, as does the second reign. Other topics effectively unaddressed by their brevity would probably include law and order, economic policy and income, foreign policy, family policy and relations with Wales, Scotland, Ireland and the north of England. His family unit, his court and his matrimonial/patronage policy. Relations with parliament and the nobility. Popular contemporary image. Historiography, subsequent depictions. And the usual background/aftermath sections.That should keep you busy. I may be of some assistance with sources.

31: 383:

do more to summarise the most important features of his life, reign and personality. Similarly, most of the section on "Early life" is not focussed on Edward himself. The details about his father's conflict with Henry VI are more appropriate to the articles on those two people. But here it would seem more relevant to mention why Edward happened to be born in Rouen, where he mainly grew up, what kind of education he had, etc.

2082:

battle on Edward IV is part of larger wars, and I suggest we call it a draw here and leave the article title as it is (which, honestly, isn't so long or complex as to make concision a pressing concern) until some clearer framework is established at a higher level. Has anyone tried to tabulate all monarchical names - or an adequately large sample - as a tool for trying to reach consensus on a determining set of principles?

2682: 204: 113: 1346:, It looks to me that the article's extended-protected status should now be lifted. From the log I see you imposed it in September 2018 in response to a flurry of disruptive edits from an IP address. Is there a particular reason to think those would resume at the same level? If not, could you lift it, or at least reduce the protection level? 601:, for your response. But my opinion - for what it's worth - remains that, for a lead section, the present one gets too bogged down in what I would consider to be background information, particularly in the 2nd and 3rd sentences of the second paragraph and the first sentence of the third paragraph. The lead section is supposed to summarize 2533:”, for consistency and recognisability. NCROYAL is one case where quality sources are a problem, because there are small number of authors who write about a lot of royalist, and each attempts to claim novelty by familiarity by using a close perspective title. I think this is why the NCROYAL guideline is so terrible. — 629:

in a chapter). If Henry had been Edward III, history would look very different; if he was either sane, or insane, all the time, the problem would have been simpler. It was his occasional recovery that caused what remains a unique situation in English history (George III occurred in a different context).

2310:

recognizes), there's a benefit in predictable and consistent titling, and in following the same pattern as similar articles. Whatever benefit some feel may be gleaned from having a slightly shorter title, I don't see that it outweighs the potential confusion we would introduce by arbitrarily reducing

1967:

I continue to stand by pre-emptive disambiguation, and IMHO some of those listed should be moved back. However if we are to abandon pre-emptive disambiguation then we should take a clear decision instead of approaching it in this piecemeal way. Edward V is a pretty minor figure, a child monarch who

1517:

Aftermath section has Cardinal Reginald Pole as the 'last legitimate heir'. Cardinal Reginald Pole was the last surviving son of Margaret Pole, Countess of Salisbury, but he had at least four nephews surviving at the time of his death (Sir Arthur, Thomas, Edmund and Geoffrey) - legitimate sons of his

628:

Henry's personality and mental condition is central to the Wars of the Roses, which is what most readers will be looking for (that's not really controversial; in comparison to books on the War, even purported biographies of Edward are thin on the ground, and usually cover the second half of his reign

473:

Edward reigned twelve more years, but died suddenly in 1483. Since his heir apparent was still a minor, he named his brother, the Duke of Gloucester, as Lord Protector. After his death, Edward’s surviving sons were declared illegitimate by Gloucester who then ascended the throne as Richard III before

403:

Edward was a central figure in the Wars of the Roses, a series of civil wars for state power in England fought by opposing Yorkist and Lancastrian factions between 1455 and 1487. His father, Richard of York, led the Yorkists against King Henry VI at the start of these wars but was killed in battle in

2726:

You should add "Mary of York" as the second child of Edward IV of England and Elizabeth Woodville because I don't see her in the Edward's child and yesturday I saw her. I don't know why she was delated and who done it, but I think that's a shame imagine if pupils searched for informations about this

2274:

Sure, but there needs to be a balance. CONSISTENCY with other titles of similar articles is fine for choosing among choices that all meet COMMONNAME and the other CRITERIA about equally, but not not to pick a title over another that meets the other CRITERIA so much better. That goes for all of them.

2081:

isn't as clearly-established or as overriding in application as I had imagined. There are lots of competing guidelines and precedents, so I don't see how a purely principled decision can be made without consensus for a clearer and more comprehensive rulebook. There is evidently a sense in which this

1049:

A lot of good improvements have been made in the last few days. But I think there should be more consideration of Edward's role in evolving the structures of English monarchy and governance. Ross mentions - and more recent historians still discuss - Green's "New Monarchy" thesis. As I understand it,

888:

has a point regarding comprehensiveness. The contents page of the biography by Ross can serve as a good checklist. For example, Ross devotes 12 pages to "policies towards Wales, the north of England, and Ireland", while the body of this article mentions Wales once and Ireland not even once; Ross has

465:

Edward's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville led to his falling out with his mentor, Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick. His reign was interrupted by a revolt in 1470-1471, led by Warwick and backed by the French, which briefly re-installed Henry VI as king. Edward regained the throne after finding refuge

423:

Edward reigned twelve more years. Shortly before he died, in 1483, seeing that his heir apparent was still a minor, he named his brother, the Duke of Gloucester, as Protector. After his death, Edward’s surviving sons were declared illegitimate by Gloucester who then ascended to the throne as Richard

397:

Further to the above, I drafted a new lead section before realizing that the article is protected. For what it's worth, I copy my draft below. I think it does a better job of summarising the contents of the article, although the article itself is rather weak regarding the qualities of Edward and his

2780:

The article currently states Edward "remains the only king in English history since 1066 in active possession of his throne who failed to secure the safe succession of his son." It's not literally true, and there are too many caveats that you would need to add to this statement to make it helpful.

1562:

Hello, just want to reiterate to people to try and use the talk page if they have any revisions they think that might be controversial or challenged. It can be a little annoying when some people try to make really big changes to the pages, especially those without much thinking behind it, and other

457:

was a central figure in the Wars of the Roses, a series of civil wars in England fought between the Yorkist and Lancastrian factions between 1455 and 1487, during the reign of King Henry VI of England. Edward was the eldest son of Richard, Duke of York, a rival claimant to the throne and the leader

382:

I'm not a specialist in this area but, coming to the article for the first time, the introduction strikes me as too full of events and circumstances leading up to Edward's accession. I think these should be moved to the beginning of the "Accession to the throne" section, and the introduction should

1680:

This page states that, When Richard Duke of York was replaced in France, his replacement was Henry Beaufort, 3rd Duke of Somerset. This is incorrect. Henry Beaufort was born in 1436. York was replaced in France in 1443, first by Henry's grandfather, John Beaufort, 1st Duke of Somerset, and then by

1024:

I understand your point but not every topic covered by Ross is important enough to be included; the fact its not included is not because it hasn't been considered. Horrox' online Oxford DNB entry (which is a lot longer than this) does not even mention Ireland. If there's a relevant point you think

987:

I think you misunderstood me. I did not suggest that you read a book. I suggested that you use the Contents page of a comprehensive general biography as a checklist to ensure that every major point has been covered. It simply does not make sense for Ireland, the other of the two islands partially

2264:

asserts that good titles should follow the pattern of like articles, a standard that the current title certainly meets better than the proposed one. Though you may personally favor certain titling criteria over others, and are free to advocate for them, our goal here is to weigh all criteria and

719:

The article looks much better now than it did last year but I do not think it is quite there yet. The chronology is odd. Why is the "Legitimacy" section after "Successors"? Why does it mention an unnamed and apparently discredited TV documentary? Much of what is in "Overview" belongs to "Reign".

144:

The article about Edward IV of England contains an inaccuracy. Edward IV had a daughter in 1461. Her name was Elizabeth. She became Elizabeth Lumley upon her marriage to Sir Thomas Lumley. No one knows who the mother of Lady Elizabeth Lumley was. She was brought up by Edward IV's mother, her own

411:

His reign was interrupted by a French-backed revolt in 1470-1471 which briefly installed King Henry VI for a second time. Edward regained the throne after finding refuge and funds in Flanders, winning the Battle of Barnet and entering London. He quickly consolidated his position by having Henry

2802:

It may seem like a minor nit-pick, but the article claims Edward was 'crowned' in London before moving on to Towton to confront Anjou's force. This is not true, Edward was appointed King, but was not crowned such until after Towton. It is actually a moderatly important detail that ought to be

845:

It needs full and comprehensive coverage of the first 9 years of the reign; the current effort is cursory bordering on the useless. This would include the pacification of the north, the Wydeville connection, and relations with Warwick at least. Deposition, exile and restoration need a fuller

546:

I'm not suggesting it can't be improved but I don't think it needs to be entirely rewritten (plus "Edward's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville led to his falling out with his mentor, Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick" is not really accurate. Its far more complex than that, and relates to foreign

1361:

I can, but is a high-visibility article that frequently gets vandalised, or rather frequently gets edited by people with imperfect knowledge of the topic (e.g. dates of reign and predecessor/successor are regularly interfered with). You're autoconfirmed so you should be able to edit it now.

773:

I don't think it needs more words per se. I seem to be in a minority on this topic, but we need to think about users. This is an encyclopaedia, so conciseness is a virtue. Graphics break it up, especially when viewed on a mobile device, which (per Knowledge) is how most people will access

1074:

Penn, Seward and Horrox argue Edward tried to disrupt existing regional powerbrokers (eg handing the North to John Neville, removing the Tudors in Wales, Courtenays in the South-West etc) rather than necessarily destroy them. But I'll give it some thought, then you can take a look.

2626:

For someone like myself, who is not knowledgeable about this period and comes here to be educated, this article is very imprecise as to which of the many Henrys are being mentioned at any particular juncture. For example, which Henry is being talked about in this quote:

1857: 1144:, rather than "the third son of Edward III", etc., and other pre-history). Debs' lead nicely draws the central figure into the context without wasting words. Her prose is, frankly, delightful; I felt what it replaced—while longer—was choppier and fragmentary. Cheers, 632:

All these points are discussed in the article; its reasonable to have three sentences in a five paragraph Lead covering Henry, the economic and political circumstances of his minority, his personality even when sane, and his mental illness. It's essential background.

1276:

Oh but I just noticed that the Wars of the Roses are said to have taken place "between 1455 and 1487, during the reign of Henry VI". Henry VI's reign didn't cover the latter part, so could one of you extended-confirmed-users cut out "during the reign of Henry VI"?

2562:

way, and is more widely applicable than the without-realm style (which we'd have to regularly diverge from, for low-numbered monarchs like Henry I). Including the realm also makes it easier to track changes in the title of a given state, such as the shift from

2485:

If we are to be WP:CONSISTENT, it should be with the majority of royalty pages that still use the 'name of place' format, rather than using a somewhat arbitrary 'eligibility' standard as justification to emulate the relatively small number of pages that are

962:

The article is about Edward IV, the person and individual, not the economic development of 15th century England. Knowledge is an online ecyclopedia for general users, most of whom spend no more five minutes on the article (Knowledge stats). Longer is not

446:

I would agree that the lead section at present focuses too much on Henry VI and not enough on Edward. However, you can't plunge straight in with your first paragraph without explaining a little more. I'd make a few changes and come up with something like

2592:

method of stripping the country name out of monarch articles needs to stop and be reversed. It was a good system to make it consistent across all articles, rather than on subjective measures of "importance" for who gets to not have the "of <country:

1949:

An argument could be made for not including the nation for 'iconic' monarchs (as could the counter argument), but these are exceptions rather than justification for systematic renaming. Neither of the monarchs in this proposal are such iconic figures.

948:

Just so we're all clear, I've read eight different books on this topic, including Ross, Penn and Seward, plus numerous articles. Of the 45 Sources provided in this article, the vast majority come from me. I don't need help with Sources, thanks all the

1563:

editors having to revert these silly changes. Just a precaution so that it can ease some of the burdens other editors have to deal with, which can take quite a bit of hours to do, when those initial edits just took seconds or minutes to make. Thanks.

458:

of the opposition to Henry VI. When Richard was killed in battle in December 1460, Edward inherited his claim to the throne. In the first few months of 1461 he commanded victorious forces in the battles of Mortimer's Cross and Towton, and became king.

1239:

Compliments are always much appreciated, but I'm always willing to compromise on wording and in this case, there are several people who know a lot about the subject. Perhaps that makes it harder in some ways to agree on where the emphasis should be.

536:

First, the Lead is supposed to summarise the Article; Second, its hard to leave out Henry's role, because (lets be clear), the Wars are what people focus on. Even Thomas Penn's recent rewrite of the Brothers York covers the period 1471 to 1483 in a

2204:

A title “working well” isn’t saying much. A totally gibberish title could work well with appropriate redirects and links. Beyond “working well” which is trivial what’s helpful is title stability and that comes from making titles consistent with

2209:. When a guideline strays from CRITERIA guidance that leads to confusion and volatility. That’s what happened with royalty titles. That guideline ignored CRITERIA and COMMONNAME, especially CONCISION. But it’s better now. Let’s move forward. — 624:

Edward was a usurper, not an heir; that means the political and economic context which led to the civil wars is key. Hence reference to the Regency council, and Henry's minority; without that, why he ended up fighting for the throne becomes a

766:

I agree the focus and flow is a bit odd, largely because I didn't want to simply impose my perspective on the article. There were huge paragraphs devoted to Legitimacy and the TV documentary, so getting it down to one line was a considerable

331:

This was removed as a 'self-published' source, which I think is harsh. The guidelines say 'use with caution' and I don't see the problem with using this to verify the location of his burial place, as opposed to qualitative assessments.

276:(b) I'm not going to touch it but is the question of his legitimacy worthy of more attention than (say) his foreign policy? Its three times longer than the current coverage of his reign post 1471 and has no references. Seems unbalanced. 958:

As a result, I'm well aware of all the different aspects of his reign; Ross wrote a 400 page biography, which is why he could devote 12 pages to Edward spending a lot of money to traipse around Northern France for a month. This is an

1307:

Did a virus shielded, cheeky, drive-by ce; auto-edded, cite scan, removed redundant ref harvs, changed date to year, moved unused references to further reading, rv dupe wikilinks. Tried to find Ross 1992 but couldn't. Rv as desired.

972:

How about providing an example of an article we should aspire to? Then we can decide who'd like to do it. Doesn't have to be me; my main objective was to remove huge chunks of pointless speculation about his legitimacy. Job done.

1542:

Is it just me or is the issues section in Edward IV's infobox jumbled up? It's not even chronological, if whoever did it did so for the purposes of highlighting historically important children of Edward IV. Should it be fixed?

1756:

If the regnal name and number are unambiguous, use them: Louis XVIII, Edward VIII, Alfonso XII, Gustaf VI Adolf. Adding a country to the article title, when there is no other country with a monarch of that name, goes against

404:

December 1460. As the eldest son, Edward (then aged 18) inherited his father’s claim to the throne. In the first few months of 1461 he commanded victorious forces in the battles of Morton Cross and Towton, and became king.

1623:

Is the table legible enough? Or would it be better to simplify or split it? I have toyed with rearranging the children of John and Joan, hoping for less intersecting lines, but I do not think anything would be gained.

2265:

relevant considerations and determine if the proposed change is actually an improvement and clearly merited, and IMHO I don't see that we're there (for reasons that go beyond your earlier assertion of simple JDLI).

955:

is hard work, not because I'm too lazy to read more than one book. Its easy to simply regurgitate large chunks of content, although I know many editors seem to think the ability to do so is a sign of intelligence.

2345: 2059: 1114:

Sorry to drag you into this, but I find edit wars incredibly childish. Can one of you have a look at the rewrite of the Lead and make any adjustments; I don't think its an improvement, but I may well be biased.

1419:. "Elizabeth of York, Queen of England" takes up two rows and is a bit of an overkill; "Elizabeth of York" and "Elizabeth, Queen of England" (with "York" stated below) are both enough to identify the daughter. 335:

Findagrave has tens of thousands of entries, entered by thousands of individuals and provides pictures and details; if you think there's a better one, then please feel free but until then, can we keep this.

2377:

mostly per Adumbrativus. These monarchs are not some obscure monarchs. They are historical, and everybody knows about them. It is arrogant to assume that everybody knows of the modern USA. —usernamekiran

1877:. I see this as an arrogant assumption that "everyone knows" which country they were monarchs of, simply because they are English. I opposed the other changes and I oppose these for the same reason. 2713: 720:"Ancestry" is unsourced and names some people for no apparent reason; shouldn't a genealogy chart mention his brothers, who had such a great role in his reign, rather than an obscure Maud Percy? 2390:, Could you please explain what you mean about the USA? And it's certainly not true that "everybody knows about them"; most English people could tell you nothing at all about Edward IV. 474:

himself being killed in battle. Edward nevertheless became an ancestor of Tudor and Stuart monarchs through his daughter, Elizabeth of York, who married Richard's rival, King Henry VII.

2115:

or is based on the concept of pre-emptive disambiguation, which is contrary to policy and community consensus, and should be discounted accordingly when evaluating consensus here. —

605:

and in my view these are not among the most important points of this specific article. But on consideration I agree it wasn't necessary to rewrite the whole of the lead section.

2026:

a year ago and may not represent consensus. Removing pre-emptive disambiguation consistently would effect dozens of articles, not just these two, I will raise this at NCROY.

1681:

Henry's father Edmund Beaufort, 2nd Duke of Somerset. Henry Beaufort was sent to Calais in 1459 to dislodge the Earl of Warwick. That was his only military command in France.

466:

and funds in Flanders, winning the Battle of Barnet and entering London. He quickly consolidated his position by having Henry killed and winning another victory at Tewkesbury.

770:

Personally, ancestry charts bore me to tears. I can find a reference without any trouble, but I have zero interest in expanding it, so if anyone else does, please feel free.

2146:: Unnecessary disambugation. The target already redirects to the current articles. As far as anglocentricity is concerned, one could also open RMs for these monarchs: 2005:), means there is an established principle that trumps the strongest "oppose" arguments (anglocentricity, non-iconicness and pre-emptive disambiguation) in this case. 273:(a) While Edward was a talented individual (while young), the article is fairly uncritical, which is not the case even for the references already provided (eg Ross); 424:

III. Edward nevertheless became an ancestor of Tudor and Stuart monarchs through his daughter, Elizabeth of York, who married Richard’s vanquisher, King Henry VII.

1725: 2352:). Arguments that titles of monarchs should follow one format are reasonable, but are less persuasive when many titles already do not follow that format (e.g. 1477:

As I said, I am fine with choosing common name over consistency. "Elizabeth of York" works well. It is "Elizabeth of York, Queen of England" that bothers me.

1262:, though I hope the main article will eventually support adding something about innovations in monarchical governance and the economy during Edward's reign. 647:

I'm dubious about the statement "and until 1453, heir presumptive to Henry VI". Surely Humphrey of Gloucester was heir presumptive until his death in 1447?

1232: 1162: 925: 864: 824: 752: 667: 176: 2318: 2315: 2312: 2303: 1186: 1827: 1459:

Likewise, "Richard, Duke of York", is normally understood to mean Edward IV's father, so much so that the article with that title actually

1713:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a

2472: 236: 2717: 2637: 89: 2360:

ignore that they have consensus. Lastly, whether a topic is well-known or minor is not a factor and plays no role in the analysis.

967:

It needs full and comprehensive coverage of the first 9 years of the reign; the current effort is cursory bordering on the useless.

2344:

guideline ("if the regnal name and number are unambiguous, use them") affirms these principles, and is backed by consensus at the

1652:

Thank you for the encouragement! It takes time to find these in published biographies and to recreate them, though, and there are

1823: 1568: 1548: 1415:

All his children are "of York". The name of the house is stated right after the list of children. Compare with the infobox in

2461:

argument pointing out that the main title headers for other eligible monarchs are already depicted in the streamlined form. —

992:

ignored - especially since space is accorded to the marital choices of Edward's grandson and Edward's rival's mother-in-law.

523: 2823: 2748: 2727:

king for a school homework and had bad grade because of this mistake, it would be a pity for them, who trusted Knowledge.

2617:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

1222: 1152: 915: 854: 814: 742: 662: 183: 150: 2576: 2568: 1806:– The articles of many British and English monarchs are formatted without the country in the name. This is the case for 1774: 1743: 1564: 1544: 2632: 2077:

Following the debate with interest and appreciation, I've come to realise more that the "established principle" in

38: 2532:, The notion of concision pushed to brevity to the point of idiocy. Either it’s “King …” or “… of <Kingdom: --> 508:, will you make this change? Or perhaps even remove the protected status of the page, on a trial basis at least. 1704: 2558:, I think it's best to preserve the "(name) of (Kingdom)" structure; it's useful for distinguishing royals in a 2512: 1842: 1583: 1215: 1214:

It's purely because Deb didn't link theirs^^^ :) and I didn't wan't to insert links until we had a consensus.

1145: 908: 885: 847: 807: 735: 169: 59: 734:

It's a bit bitty though, yeah; the vastness of the literature means this should probably be a ≥12,000-worder.

146: 777:

If there is a topic missing, let's discuss, but I'm not a fan of simply expanding because its a big subject.

240: 2688: 2572: 2468: 2379: 359: 210: 119: 2226:"But it’s better now." That is your opinion. It has become much worse, with increasingly confusing titles. 1638:

It looks great in its current form. Would have no objections, if you added them throughout all royal bios.

2808: 2644: 2365: 2174: 2031: 1973: 1591: 1438: 1137: 93: 1915:- And would urge returning many of the older ones to "of England" format. Knowledge audience is global. 1686: 1714: 2594:" disambiguator. We need to stop this and return to putting them all back at the consistent names. -- 1441:. And "Elizabeth of York" is the normal, common name for this particular consort. In fact, it was her 2804: 2736: 2692: 2458: 2450: 2333: 2299: 2279: 2261: 2248: 2213: 2119: 2066: 1787: 511: 350:

The number of entries at a crowdsourced site is not relevant to its accuracy. Find-a-Grave entry is

214: 123: 85: 2127:

I'm sure that the closer will note your preferences. Let's face it, we've all heard them endlessly.

1763:(a guideline) does not have site-wide consensus. A broader discussion is necessary on this topic. 1682: 2812: 2538: 2495: 2454: 2337: 2108: 1955: 1920: 1838: 1796: 1717:

after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

1661: 1629: 1614: 1482: 1424: 1328: 1313: 1198: 1120: 1080: 1030: 997: 978: 894: 836: 831:

I thought only George Martin used 'Mayhap' :) As above, what topic(s) do you consider are missing?

782: 725: 709: 679: 638: 583: 561: 367: 340: 314: 296: 281: 1932:

Very poor format. The other changes you mention should be reversed back to the "of England" form.

2787: 2600: 2564: 2462: 2387: 2307: 2257: 2241: 2231: 2206: 2087: 2078: 2010: 2002: 1986: 1937: 1760: 1382: 1351: 1282: 1267: 1055: 610: 519: 495: 433: 388: 1989:, where it is explicitly stated that "if the regnal name and number are unambiguous, use them". 291:

As to point b, no, this is Completely out of WP:PROPORTION. It merits one sentence, two at most.

1552: 1400:

has changed "Elizabeth of York" to the ambiguous "Elizabeth, Queen of England" in the infobox?

2559: 2438: 2361: 2169: 2041: 2027: 1990: 1969: 1903: 1643: 1599: 2349: 2321: 2266: 1865: 1768: 1737: 1386: 1355: 2740: 2520: 2341: 2276: 2245: 2210: 2116: 2063: 2023: 2758:

It's only the infobox she's missing from, possibly because she didn't live to adulthood.

2060:

Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(royalty_and_nobility)/Archive_24#Request_for_comment_2

799: 2534: 2491: 2275:

For example, we don’t pick the most CONCISE title when COMMONNAME indicates another. —

2112: 1951: 1916: 1657: 1625: 1610: 1478: 1420: 1397: 1324: 1309: 1209: 1194: 1170: 1116: 1105: 1076: 1026: 993: 974: 904: 890: 832: 793: 778: 721: 705: 675: 634: 598: 579: 557: 363: 336: 310: 292: 277: 47: 17: 1181:

because it is less sprawling and focuses much more on Edward (the second paragraph of

804:

comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context

2783: 2763: 2662: 2629:

Matters came to a head in August 1453 when Henry collapsed into a catatonic stupor...

2595: 2426: 2395: 2227: 2195: 2132: 2083: 2049: 2006: 1933: 1882: 1527: 1496: 1468: 1450: 1405: 1378: 1367: 1347: 1278: 1263: 1245: 1111: 1051: 652: 606: 515: 491: 480: 429: 384: 255: 2732: 2159: 1899: 1819: 1754:

The votes are fairly evenly split, and many of the oppose voters feel the language

1639: 1595: 165: 161: 1140:, which is superior as it concentrates on Edward himself (as you point out above, 907:, and of course, you're right: Ross is n excellent starting point. Very readable. 1861: 1811: 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

1764: 1733: 1445:, being the person who was supposed to unite the houses of York and Lancaster. 2828: 2792: 2767: 2753: 2721: 2666: 2651: 2607: 2580: 2551: 2542: 2524: 2516: 2499: 2476: 2429: 2399: 2382: 2369: 2324: 2282: 2269: 2251: 2235: 2216: 2199: 2181: 2155: 2136: 2122: 2091: 2069: 2053: 2035: 2014: 1993: 1977: 1959: 1941: 1924: 1907: 1886: 1869: 1846: 1807: 1780: 1749: 1690: 1665: 1647: 1633: 1618: 1603: 1572: 1531: 1500: 1486: 1472: 1454: 1428: 1416: 1409: 1371: 1332: 1317: 1286: 1271: 1249: 1234: 1202: 1164: 1124: 1084: 1059: 1034: 1001: 982: 927: 898: 866: 840: 826: 786: 754: 729: 713: 683: 669: 656: 642: 614: 587: 565: 527: 499: 484: 437: 392: 371: 344: 318: 300: 285: 259: 244: 188: 154: 97: 2356:), and in my view, do not outweigh the other criteria. Arguments of the type 1189:

advises that there should be no more than four paragraphs in a lead section.

661:

Yes; York was heir between the death of Gloucester and the birth of the PoW.

2555: 2442: 2410: 2353: 2151: 2147: 1791: 556:

As the person who rewrote it, can I have a go first? Then you can critique.

2413:

redirects here anyway, the English monarch seems to be the primary topic.

2759: 2658: 2446: 2414: 2391: 2191: 2128: 2045: 1878: 1815: 1800: 1523: 1492: 1464: 1446: 1401: 1363: 1343: 1241: 1130: 1108: 648: 505: 476: 251: 235:

Says that edward was succeeded by henry vi - i think should be henry vii

2163: 1822:, to name a few. I see no reason to exclude Edward IV and Edward V. 2240:

No, not better per my opinion which couldn’t care less. Better per

1185:, for example, does not even mention Edward). For what it's worth, 2044:. I wasn't aware of the change and I don't see consensus for it. 2437:

per nomination. Other than under special circumstances, such as

2311:

one title in an otherwise more consistently-titled set of many (

1856:. the "of England" format is uncommon in the RS, as you can see 704:

I see it failed back in 2015 - is it worth renominating it now?

1437:, when they see "Elizabeth, Queen of England", thinks of Queen 2676: 2260:

does not wholly support the proposed change. For example, the

2058:

I looked. Seems to me consensus for it was established here:

1522:

I think you're correct. I've removed that misleading wording.

198: 107: 25: 2107:

per above sound policy-based nom and Support arguments, plus

1558:

For major/radical/unpopular changes, please use the talk page

195:

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 November 2019

104:

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 September 2019

2111:. Closer: please note that the entire opposition is either 1193:, however, is severely underlinked. Is that an oversight? 2336:) and adding "of England" is unnecessary disambiguation ( 2798:

Error incorrectly describing Edward's actions pre-Towton

2167: 1259: 1190: 1182: 1178: 1174: 2441:, it is counterintuitive to have short forms, such as 2001:

I think the last argument, (unambiguity, referring to

1894:- Not asking anyone in particular, but when will this 802:, of which a requirement (1b) is that the article is 1656:

royal bios around. But Rome was not built in a day.

1339:

Request to remove or reduce the article's protection

2348:and consensus at the RMs which led up to it (e.g. 1518:brother Sir Geoffrey Pole and Constance Pakenham. 2358:well we should just change those other titles too 412:killed and winning another victory at Tewksbury. 309:Rewritten, let me know if it needs changing, txs 1025:should be included, please feel free to add it. 2550:- Outside of particularly iconic monarchs like 2657:Henry VI, obviously, but I get what you mean. 75:At the time Rouen, Normandy was not in France. 969:This comment is neither helpful, or accurate. 8: 81:"Edward of York was born at Rouen in France" 2673:Semi-protected edit request on 5 April 2022 1703:The following is a closed discussion of a 1173:, we're all here willingly :D I do prefer 509: 83: 2190:in a standard format, which worked well. 270:General comments (for what its worth); 166:reliable, independent secondary sources 2714:2A01:CB0C:BA1:4C00:34E9:B898:BE7B:E691 2186:Once upon a time, these articles were 1755: 1463:to Richard of York, 3rd Duke of York. 1187:Knowledge:Manual of Style/Lead section 1141: 803: 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 674:My mistake, I'll clarify, thanks :). 354:appropriate as an external link, and 7: 2511:per my previous arguments (e.g., at 2449:, redirect to longer forms, such as 1722:The result of the move request was: 1260:the new/current version of the lead 250:No, you're completely wrong there. 2797: 24: 2306:; as others rightly note (and as 2680: 2613:The discussion above is closed. 1898:push on monarch articles, stop? 202: 111: 29: 1968:only reigned for a few months. 1830:) 16:31, 3 September 2021 (UTC) 1696:Requested move 3 September 2021 2477:01:52, 23 September 2021 (UTC) 2430:01:10, 23 September 2021 (UTC) 2383:18:28, 20 September 2021 (UTC) 2370:08:27, 15 September 2021 (UTC) 2325:15:03, 13 September 2021 (UTC) 2283:21:04, 13 September 2021 (UTC) 2270:15:38, 13 September 2021 (UTC) 2252:13:28, 13 September 2021 (UTC) 2236:06:36, 13 September 2021 (UTC) 2217:05:07, 13 September 2021 (UTC) 2200:20:43, 12 September 2021 (UTC) 2182:20:27, 12 September 2021 (UTC) 2137:20:43, 12 September 2021 (UTC) 2123:04:57, 12 September 2021 (UTC) 2092:03:22, 14 September 2021 (UTC) 2070:05:04, 12 September 2021 (UTC) 2054:07:34, 10 September 2021 (UTC) 1847:15:22, 22 September 2021 (UTC) 1537: 1: 2829:15:07, 27 February 2023 (UTC) 2667:13:33, 13 December 2021 (UTC) 2652:13:09, 13 December 2021 (UTC) 2036:20:23, 6 September 2021 (UTC) 2022:This point was only added to 2015:01:21, 6 September 2021 (UTC) 1994:23:56, 5 September 2021 (UTC) 1978:22:50, 5 September 2021 (UTC) 1960:14:54, 5 September 2021 (UTC) 1942:13:21, 5 September 2021 (UTC) 1925:11:03, 5 September 2021 (UTC) 1908:05:40, 5 September 2021 (UTC) 1887:22:27, 3 September 2021 (UTC) 1870:21:19, 3 September 2021 (UTC) 798:Mayhap; but have a glance at 260:14:45, 10 November 2019 (UTC) 245:14:03, 10 November 2019 (UTC) 189:10:41, 1 September 2019 (UTC) 155:09:55, 1 September 2019 (UTC) 2813:16:40, 22 January 2023 (UTC) 2608:19:47, 12 October 2021 (UTC) 2581:19:02, 12 October 2021 (UTC) 2569:Anne, Queen of Great Britain 2543:13:52, 12 October 2021 (UTC) 2525:22:41, 10 October 2021 (UTC) 2500:19:34, 12 October 2021 (UTC) 2457:, especially in view of the 2400:12:39, 11 October 2021 (UTC) 1781:19:14, 13 October 2021 (UTC) 1750:19:14, 13 October 2021 (UTC) 1676:2nd and 3rd Duke of Somerset 1501:11:08, 11 October 2020 (UTC) 1487:11:00, 11 October 2020 (UTC) 1473:15:47, 10 October 2020 (UTC) 1455:15:45, 10 October 2020 (UTC) 1429:13:18, 10 October 2020 (UTC) 1410:12:19, 10 October 2020 (UTC) 490:Yes, that's better! Thanks. 301:20:21, 8 December 2019 (UTC) 286:18:45, 8 December 2019 (UTC) 2707:to reactivate your request. 2695:has been answered. Set the 2332:. "Edward IV" is standard ( 1138:lead from the section above 763:Thanks both. Answers below; 372:03:03, 8 January 2020 (UTC) 345:19:16, 7 January 2020 (UTC) 319:19:17, 7 January 2020 (UTC) 229:to reactivate your request. 217:has been answered. Set the 138:to reactivate your request. 126:has been answered. Set the 98:19:53, 1 January 2019 (UTC) 2845: 2739:'. On your other point... 1538:Edward IV's Issues infobar 1338: 2768:18:01, 5 April 2022 (UTC) 2754:18:00, 5 April 2022 (UTC) 2735:is already listed under ' 2722:17:50, 5 April 2022 (UTC) 1691:02:02, 11 July 2021 (UTC) 1666:00:29, 18 June 2021 (UTC) 1648:00:12, 18 June 2021 (UTC) 1634:00:05, 18 June 2021 (UTC) 1619:23:59, 17 June 2021 (UTC) 1604:23:07, 17 June 2021 (UTC) 1532:10:19, 1 April 2021 (UTC) 1142:the person and individual 603:the most important points 2793:14:14, 4 June 2022 (UTC) 2622:Which "Henry", exactly ? 2615:Please do not modify it. 2590:death by a thousand cuts 2513:Talk:Edward I of England 1710:Please do not modify it. 1584:George, Duke of Clarence 1573:03:12, 24 May 2021 (UTC) 1387:10:07, 28 May 2020 (UTC) 1372:09:15, 28 May 2020 (UTC) 1356:00:39, 28 May 2020 (UTC) 1333:16:10, 25 May 2020 (UTC) 1318:13:23, 25 May 2020 (UTC) 1287:03:32, 26 May 2020 (UTC) 1272:01:29, 26 May 2020 (UTC) 1250:18:54, 25 May 2020 (UTC) 1235:17:13, 25 May 2020 (UTC) 1203:17:05, 25 May 2020 (UTC) 1165:16:57, 25 May 2020 (UTC) 1125:16:40, 25 May 2020 (UTC) 1085:16:08, 25 May 2020 (UTC) 1060:03:22, 25 May 2020 (UTC) 1035:16:08, 25 May 2020 (UTC) 1002:21:54, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 983:18:33, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 928:15:17, 23 May 2020 (UTC) 899:15:11, 23 May 2020 (UTC) 867:15:10, 23 May 2020 (UTC) 841:14:38, 23 May 2020 (UTC) 827:13:47, 23 May 2020 (UTC) 787:12:23, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 755:19:08, 21 May 2020 (UTC) 730:19:03, 21 May 2020 (UTC) 714:17:36, 21 May 2020 (UTC) 684:17:21, 21 May 2020 (UTC) 670:09:27, 21 May 2020 (UTC) 657:08:02, 21 May 2020 (UTC) 643:07:06, 21 May 2020 (UTC) 615:02:07, 21 May 2020 (UTC) 588:18:53, 20 May 2020 (UTC) 566:18:11, 20 May 2020 (UTC) 528:01:17, 20 May 2020 (UTC) 500:14:37, 18 May 2020 (UTC) 485:14:06, 18 May 2020 (UTC) 438:13:30, 18 May 2020 (UTC) 393:04:13, 14 May 2020 (UTC) 358:as an article source - ( 79:It wilfully misreads... 1553:06:13, 9 May 2021 (UTC) 988:ruled by Edward, to be 2409:per nominator, and as 1565:Yourlocallordandsavior 1545:Yourlocallordandsavior 1439:Elizabeth I of England 2737:Marriage and children 2262:consistency criterion 42:of past discussions. 2693:Edward IV of England 2451:Edward IV of England 2298:as out of step with 1788:Edward IV of England 1258:I'm very happy with 578:See what you think. 455:Edward IV of England 215:Edward IV of England 124:Edward IV of England 2820:vox populi, vox dei 2776:Unhelpful statement 2490:with the majority. 2455:Edward V of England 1797:Edward V of England 147:NigelBoddysolicitor 2573:ModernDayTrilobite 2565:Mary II of England 1491:Okay, I get that. 1396:I'm wondering why 903:Excellent points, 2711: 2710: 2475: 2075:Change of opinion 2040:Thanks for that, 1849: 1729: 1726:non-admin closure 1578:Family tree table 1392:Elizabeth of York 700:Renominate for GA 530: 514:comment added by 327:Use of Findagrave 233: 232: 162:original research 142: 141: 100: 88:comment added by 72: 71: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 2836: 2826: 2791: 2751: 2702: 2698: 2684: 2683: 2677: 2649: 2642: 2635: 2598: 2467: 2423: 2420: 2417: 2350:Talk:Elizabeth I 2180: 2177: 2172: 1831: 1777: 1771: 1746: 1740: 1723: 1712: 1609:Indeed! Thanks. 1230: 1220: 1213: 1160: 1150: 923: 913: 862: 852: 822: 812: 797: 750: 740: 665: 360:WP:FINDAGRAVE-EL 224: 220: 206: 205: 199: 186: 181: 174: 133: 129: 115: 114: 108: 68: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 2844: 2843: 2839: 2838: 2837: 2835: 2834: 2833: 2824: 2800: 2782: 2778: 2749: 2724: 2700: 2696: 2681: 2675: 2645: 2638: 2633: 2624: 2619: 2618: 2596: 2421: 2418: 2415: 2175: 2170: 1775: 1769: 1767:(power~enwiki, 1744: 1738: 1736:(power~enwiki, 1708: 1698: 1678: 1580: 1560: 1540: 1515: 1394: 1341: 1305: 1223: 1216: 1207: 1153: 1146: 916: 909: 855: 848: 815: 808: 791: 767:achievement :). 743: 736: 702: 663: 380: 329: 268: 222: 218: 203: 197: 184: 177: 170: 168:. Many thanks! 131: 127: 112: 106: 77: 64: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 2842: 2840: 2832: 2831: 2799: 2796: 2777: 2774: 2773: 2772: 2771: 2770: 2712: 2709: 2708: 2685: 2674: 2671: 2670: 2669: 2623: 2620: 2612: 2611: 2610: 2583: 2545: 2527: 2505: 2504: 2503: 2502: 2480: 2479: 2432: 2404: 2403: 2402: 2372: 2327: 2293: 2292: 2291: 2290: 2289: 2288: 2287: 2286: 2285: 2221: 2220: 2219: 2141: 2140: 2139: 2102: 2101: 2100: 2099: 2098: 2097: 2096: 2095: 2094: 1996: 1980: 1962: 1944: 1927: 1910: 1889: 1872: 1839:Havelock Jones 1804: 1803: 1794: 1784: 1720: 1719: 1705:requested move 1699: 1697: 1694: 1677: 1674: 1673: 1672: 1671: 1670: 1669: 1668: 1621: 1579: 1576: 1559: 1556: 1539: 1536: 1535: 1534: 1514: 1511: 1510: 1509: 1508: 1507: 1506: 1505: 1504: 1503: 1457: 1398:User:Surtsicna 1393: 1390: 1375: 1374: 1340: 1337: 1336: 1335: 1304: 1301: 1300: 1299: 1298: 1297: 1296: 1295: 1294: 1293: 1292: 1291: 1290: 1289: 1274: 1256: 1255: 1254: 1253: 1252: 1167: 1094: 1093: 1092: 1091: 1090: 1089: 1088: 1087: 1065: 1064: 1063: 1062: 1044: 1043: 1042: 1041: 1040: 1039: 1038: 1037: 1015: 1014: 1013: 1012: 1011: 1010: 1009: 1008: 1007: 1006: 1005: 1004: 970: 964: 960: 959:encyclopaedia. 956: 950: 937: 936: 935: 934: 933: 932: 931: 930: 878: 877: 876: 875: 874: 873: 872: 871: 870: 869: 775: 771: 768: 764: 758: 757: 732: 701: 698: 697: 696: 695: 694: 693: 692: 691: 690: 689: 688: 687: 686: 630: 626: 595: 594: 593: 592: 591: 590: 571: 570: 569: 568: 551: 550: 549: 548: 541: 540: 539: 538: 488: 487: 469: 468: 461: 460: 449: 448: 427: 426: 415: 414: 407: 406: 379: 376: 375: 374: 328: 325: 324: 323: 322: 321: 304: 303: 267: 264: 263: 262: 231: 230: 207: 196: 193: 192: 191: 140: 139: 116: 105: 102: 76: 73: 70: 69: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 18:Talk:Edward IV 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 2841: 2830: 2827: 2821: 2817: 2816: 2815: 2814: 2810: 2806: 2795: 2794: 2789: 2785: 2775: 2769: 2765: 2761: 2757: 2756: 2755: 2752: 2746: 2745:to be trusted 2744: 2738: 2734: 2730: 2729: 2728: 2723: 2719: 2715: 2706: 2703:parameter to 2694: 2690: 2686: 2679: 2678: 2672: 2668: 2664: 2660: 2656: 2655: 2654: 2653: 2650: 2648: 2643: 2641: 2636: 2630: 2621: 2616: 2609: 2606: 2605: 2604: 2599: 2591: 2587: 2584: 2582: 2578: 2574: 2570: 2566: 2561: 2557: 2553: 2549: 2546: 2544: 2540: 2536: 2531: 2528: 2526: 2522: 2518: 2514: 2510: 2507: 2506: 2501: 2497: 2493: 2489: 2484: 2483: 2482: 2481: 2478: 2474: 2470: 2466: 2465: 2464:Roman Spinner 2460: 2459:WP:CONSISTENT 2456: 2452: 2448: 2444: 2440: 2436: 2433: 2431: 2428: 2424: 2412: 2408: 2405: 2401: 2397: 2393: 2389: 2388:usernamekiran 2386: 2385: 2384: 2381: 2376: 2373: 2371: 2367: 2363: 2359: 2355: 2351: 2347: 2343: 2339: 2335: 2334:WP:COMMONNAME 2331: 2328: 2326: 2323: 2319: 2316: 2313: 2309: 2305: 2301: 2300:WP:CONSISTENT 2297: 2294: 2284: 2281: 2278: 2273: 2272: 2271: 2268: 2263: 2259: 2255: 2254: 2253: 2250: 2247: 2243: 2239: 2238: 2237: 2233: 2229: 2225: 2222: 2218: 2215: 2212: 2208: 2203: 2202: 2201: 2197: 2193: 2189: 2185: 2184: 2183: 2179: 2178: 2173: 2171:Peter Ormond 2166:, and so on. 2165: 2161: 2157: 2153: 2149: 2145: 2142: 2138: 2134: 2130: 2126: 2125: 2124: 2121: 2118: 2114: 2110: 2106: 2103: 2093: 2089: 2085: 2080: 2076: 2073: 2072: 2071: 2068: 2065: 2061: 2057: 2056: 2055: 2051: 2047: 2043: 2039: 2038: 2037: 2033: 2029: 2025: 2021: 2018: 2017: 2016: 2012: 2008: 2004: 2000: 1997: 1995: 1992: 1988: 1984: 1981: 1979: 1975: 1971: 1966: 1963: 1961: 1957: 1953: 1948: 1945: 1943: 1939: 1935: 1931: 1928: 1926: 1922: 1918: 1914: 1911: 1909: 1905: 1901: 1897: 1893: 1890: 1888: 1884: 1880: 1876: 1873: 1871: 1867: 1863: 1859: 1855: 1852: 1851: 1850: 1848: 1844: 1840: 1837: 1836: 1829: 1825: 1821: 1817: 1813: 1809: 1802: 1798: 1795: 1793: 1789: 1786: 1785: 1783: 1782: 1778: 1772: 1766: 1762: 1758: 1752: 1751: 1747: 1741: 1735: 1732: 1727: 1718: 1716: 1711: 1706: 1701: 1700: 1695: 1693: 1692: 1688: 1684: 1675: 1667: 1663: 1659: 1655: 1651: 1650: 1649: 1645: 1641: 1637: 1636: 1635: 1631: 1627: 1622: 1620: 1616: 1612: 1608: 1607: 1606: 1605: 1601: 1597: 1593: 1589: 1585: 1577: 1575: 1574: 1570: 1566: 1557: 1555: 1554: 1550: 1546: 1533: 1529: 1525: 1521: 1520: 1519: 1512: 1502: 1498: 1494: 1490: 1489: 1488: 1484: 1480: 1476: 1475: 1474: 1470: 1466: 1462: 1458: 1456: 1452: 1448: 1444: 1443:raison d'etre 1440: 1436: 1432: 1431: 1430: 1426: 1422: 1418: 1414: 1413: 1412: 1411: 1407: 1403: 1399: 1391: 1389: 1388: 1384: 1380: 1373: 1369: 1365: 1360: 1359: 1358: 1357: 1353: 1349: 1345: 1334: 1330: 1326: 1322: 1321: 1320: 1319: 1315: 1311: 1302: 1288: 1284: 1280: 1275: 1273: 1269: 1265: 1261: 1257: 1251: 1247: 1243: 1238: 1237: 1236: 1233: 1231: 1229: 1227: 1221: 1219: 1211: 1206: 1205: 1204: 1200: 1196: 1192: 1188: 1184: 1180: 1176: 1172: 1169:Don't worry, 1168: 1166: 1163: 1161: 1159: 1157: 1151: 1149: 1143: 1139: 1136: 1132: 1129:Really? It's 1128: 1127: 1126: 1122: 1118: 1113: 1110: 1107: 1104: 1103: 1102: 1101: 1100: 1099: 1098: 1097: 1096: 1095: 1086: 1082: 1078: 1073: 1072: 1071: 1070: 1069: 1068: 1067: 1066: 1061: 1057: 1053: 1048: 1047: 1046: 1045: 1036: 1032: 1028: 1023: 1022: 1021: 1020: 1019: 1018: 1017: 1016: 1003: 999: 995: 991: 986: 985: 984: 980: 976: 971: 968: 965: 961: 957: 954: 951: 947: 946: 945: 944: 943: 942: 941: 940: 939: 938: 929: 926: 924: 922: 920: 914: 912: 906: 902: 901: 900: 896: 892: 887: 884: 883: 882: 881: 880: 879: 868: 865: 863: 861: 859: 853: 851: 844: 843: 842: 838: 834: 830: 829: 828: 825: 823: 821: 819: 813: 811: 805: 801: 795: 790: 789: 788: 784: 780: 776: 772: 769: 765: 762: 761: 760: 759: 756: 753: 751: 749: 747: 741: 739: 733: 731: 727: 723: 718: 717: 716: 715: 711: 707: 699: 685: 681: 677: 673: 672: 671: 668: 666: 660: 659: 658: 654: 650: 646: 645: 644: 640: 636: 631: 627: 623: 622: 621: 620: 619: 618: 617: 616: 612: 608: 604: 600: 589: 585: 581: 577: 576: 575: 574: 573: 572: 567: 563: 559: 555: 554: 553: 552: 545: 544: 543: 542: 535: 534: 533: 532: 531: 529: 525: 521: 517: 513: 507: 502: 501: 497: 493: 486: 482: 478: 475: 471: 470: 467: 463: 462: 459: 456: 451: 450: 445: 442: 441: 440: 439: 435: 431: 425: 421: 420: 419: 418: 413: 409: 408: 405: 401: 400: 399: 395: 394: 390: 386: 377: 373: 369: 365: 361: 357: 353: 349: 348: 347: 346: 342: 338: 333: 326: 320: 316: 312: 308: 307: 306: 305: 302: 298: 294: 290: 289: 288: 287: 283: 279: 274: 271: 265: 261: 257: 253: 249: 248: 247: 246: 242: 238: 237:69.202.240.54 228: 225:parameter to 216: 212: 208: 201: 200: 194: 190: 187: 182: 180: 175: 173: 167: 164:and use only 163: 159: 158: 157: 156: 152: 148: 137: 134:parameter to 125: 121: 117: 110: 109: 103: 101: 99: 95: 91: 87: 82: 74: 67: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 2819: 2801: 2779: 2742: 2733:Mary of York 2725: 2704: 2689:edit request 2646: 2639: 2628: 2625: 2614: 2602: 2601: 2589: 2585: 2547: 2529: 2508: 2488:inconsistent 2487: 2463: 2434: 2406: 2374: 2362:Adumbrativus 2357: 2338:WP:PRECISION 2329: 2295: 2223: 2187: 2168: 2160:Margrethe II 2143: 2109:WP:CONCISION 2104: 2074: 2042:PatGallacher 2028:PatGallacher 2019: 1998: 1991:HouseBlaster 1982: 1970:PatGallacher 1964: 1946: 1929: 1912: 1895: 1891: 1874: 1853: 1834: 1833: 1820:Elizabeth II 1805: 1757:WP:PRECISION 1753: 1731:NO CONSENSUS 1730: 1721: 1709: 1702: 1679: 1653: 1587: 1581: 1561: 1541: 1516: 1460: 1442: 1434: 1395: 1376: 1342: 1306: 1225: 1224: 1217: 1191:This version 1183:this version 1175:this version 1155: 1154: 1147: 1134: 989: 966: 952: 918: 917: 910: 857: 856: 849: 817: 816: 809: 745: 744: 737: 703: 602: 596: 510:— Preceding 503: 489: 472: 464: 454: 452: 443: 428: 422: 417: 416: 410: 402: 396: 381: 356:almost never 355: 351: 334: 330: 275: 272: 269: 234: 226: 211:edit request 179:SerialNumber 178: 171: 143: 135: 120:edit request 90:92.0.184.220 84:— Preceding 80: 78: 65: 43: 37: 2308:WP:CRITERIA 2304:like titles 2258:WP:CRITERIA 2242:WP:CRITERIA 2207:WP:CRITERIA 2079:WP:COGNOMEN 2003:WP:COGNOMEN 1987:WP:COGNOMEN 1812:Elizabeth I 1761:WP:COGNOMEN 1715:move review 1592:Richard III 953:Conciseness 597:Thank you, 36:This is an 2805:Spudkinned 2803:remedied. 2741:Knowledge 2697:|answered= 2560:WP:NATURAL 2552:Henry VIII 2439:WP:USPLACE 2156:Isabella I 1835:Relisting. 1808:Henry VIII 1590:then King 1582:I believe 1417:Edward III 990:completely 806:. Cheers, 219:|answered= 128:|answered= 2556:Louis XIV 2535:SmokeyJoe 2492:Agricolae 2473:contribs) 2443:Edward IV 2411:Edward IV 2354:Edward VI 2302:and with 2152:David III 2148:Louis VII 1952:Agricolae 1917:Walrasiad 1896:name only 1792:Edward IV 1683:Wayside55 1658:Surtsicna 1626:Surtsicna 1611:Surtsicna 1513:Aftermath 1479:Surtsicna 1461:redirects 1421:Surtsicna 1325:Robinvp11 1310:Keith-264 1210:Surtsicna 1195:Surtsicna 1171:Robinvp11 1117:Robinvp11 1106:Surtsicna 1077:Robinvp11 1027:Robinvp11 994:Surtsicna 975:Robinvp11 905:Surtsicna 891:Surtsicna 833:Robinvp11 794:Robinvp11 779:Robinvp11 722:Surtsicna 706:Robinvp11 676:Robinvp11 635:Robinvp11 599:Robinvp11 580:Robinvp11 558:Robinvp11 364:Agricolae 337:Robinvp11 311:Robinvp11 293:Agricolae 278:Robinvp11 266:Revisions 160:We avoid 66:Archive 2 60:Archive 1 2447:Edward V 2342:WP:NCROY 2320:, etc.) 2228:Dimadick 2084:Mrmedley 2024:WP:NCROY 2007:Mrmedley 1934:Dimadick 1816:George V 1801:Edward V 1435:everyone 1379:Mrmedley 1377:Thanks! 1348:Mrmedley 1323:Thanks! 1279:Mrmedley 1264:Mrmedley 1112:Mrmedley 1052:Mrmedley 625:mystery. 607:Mrmedley 547:policy). 537:chapter. 524:contribs 516:Mrmedley 512:unsigned 492:Mrmedley 444:Comment. 430:Mrmedley 385:Mrmedley 86:unsigned 2825:SN54129 2750:SN54129 2435:Support 2407:Support 2375:support 2340:). The 2330:Support 2224:Comment 2144:Support 2113:WP:JDLI 2105:Support 2020:Comment 1999:Support 1983:Support 1900:GoodDay 1854:Support 1824:Векочел 1640:GoodDay 1596:GoodDay 963:better. 886:Serial# 398:reign. 39:archive 2822:etc. 2818:Well, 2634:Bushel 2597:Jayron 2586:Oppose 2548:Oppose 2530:Oppose 2509:Oppose 2380:(talk) 2296:Oppose 2164:Olav V 1965:Oppose 1947:Oppose 1930:Oppose 1913:Oppose 1892:Oppose 1875:Oppose 1862:99to99 1765:User:力 1734:User:力 1586:, was 800:WP:FA? 664:serial 352:Rarely 2747::) 2743:isn't 2701:|ans= 2687:This 2647:andle 2517:Srnec 2469:(talk 1594:. -- 1588:older 1228:erial 1158:erial 949:same. 921:erial 860:erial 820:erial 748:erial 453:King 447:this: 378:Focus 223:|ans= 209:This 185:54129 132:|ans= 118:This 16:< 2809:talk 2788:talk 2784:Anna 2764:talk 2731:Yo, 2718:talk 2663:talk 2631:" ? 2588:The 2577:talk 2539:talk 2521:talk 2496:talk 2427:Talk 2396:talk 2366:talk 2322:╠╣uw 2267:╠╣uw 2256:But 2232:talk 2196:talk 2133:talk 2088:talk 2050:talk 2032:talk 2011:talk 1985:per 1974:talk 1956:talk 1938:talk 1921:talk 1904:talk 1883:talk 1866:talk 1858:here 1843:talk 1828:talk 1687:talk 1662:talk 1654:many 1644:talk 1630:talk 1615:talk 1600:talk 1569:talk 1549:talk 1528:talk 1497:talk 1483:talk 1469:talk 1451:talk 1433:But 1425:talk 1406:talk 1383:talk 1368:talk 1352:talk 1329:talk 1314:talk 1283:talk 1268:talk 1246:talk 1199:talk 1179:this 1131:Debs 1121:talk 1081:talk 1056:talk 1031:talk 998:talk 979:talk 895:talk 837:talk 783:talk 726:talk 710:talk 680:talk 653:talk 639:talk 611:talk 584:talk 562:talk 520:talk 504:So, 496:talk 481:talk 434:talk 389:talk 368:talk 341:talk 315:talk 297:talk 282:talk 256:talk 241:talk 151:talk 94:talk 2760:Deb 2699:or 2691:to 2659:Deb 2593:--> 2567:to 2554:or 2515:). 2453:or 2445:or 2392:Deb 2346:RFC 2277:В²C 2246:В²C 2244:. — 2211:В²C 2192:Deb 2188:all 2129:Deb 2117:В²C 2064:В²C 2046:Deb 1879:Deb 1759:at 1524:Deb 1493:Deb 1465:Deb 1447:Deb 1402:Deb 1364:Deb 1344:Deb 1242:Deb 1177:to 1135:own 1109:Deb 774:it. 649:Deb 506:Deb 477:Deb 252:Deb 221:or 213:to 130:or 122:to 2811:) 2766:) 2720:) 2705:no 2665:) 2603:32 2579:) 2571:. 2541:) 2523:) 2498:) 2471:• 2425:| 2398:) 2368:) 2234:) 2198:) 2176:💬 2162:, 2158:, 2154:, 2150:, 2135:) 2090:) 2052:) 2034:) 2013:) 1976:) 1958:) 1940:) 1923:) 1906:) 1885:) 1868:) 1860:. 1845:) 1832:— 1818:, 1814:, 1810:, 1799:→ 1790:→ 1779:) 1773:, 1748:) 1742:, 1707:. 1689:) 1664:) 1646:) 1632:) 1617:) 1602:) 1571:) 1551:) 1530:) 1499:) 1485:) 1471:) 1453:) 1427:) 1408:) 1385:) 1370:) 1354:) 1331:) 1316:) 1303:CE 1285:) 1270:) 1248:) 1218:—— 1201:) 1148:—— 1133:' 1123:) 1083:) 1058:) 1033:) 1000:) 981:) 911:—— 897:) 850:—— 839:) 810:—— 785:) 738:—— 728:) 712:) 682:) 655:) 641:) 613:) 586:) 564:) 526:) 522:• 498:) 483:) 436:) 391:) 370:) 343:) 317:) 299:) 284:) 258:) 243:) 227:no 172:—— 153:) 136:no 96:) 2807:( 2790:) 2786:( 2762:( 2716:( 2661:( 2640:C 2627:" 2575:( 2537:( 2519:( 2494:( 2422:P 2419:I 2416:J 2394:( 2364:( 2317:, 2314:, 2280:☎ 2249:☎ 2230:( 2214:☎ 2194:( 2131:( 2120:☎ 2086:( 2067:☎ 2062:— 2048:( 2030:( 2009:( 1972:( 1954:( 1936:( 1919:( 1902:( 1881:( 1864:( 1841:( 1826:( 1776:ν 1770:π 1745:ν 1739:π 1728:) 1724:( 1685:( 1660:( 1642:( 1628:( 1613:( 1598:( 1567:( 1547:( 1526:( 1495:( 1481:( 1467:( 1449:( 1423:( 1404:( 1381:( 1366:( 1350:( 1327:( 1312:( 1281:( 1266:( 1244:( 1226:S 1212:: 1208:@ 1197:( 1156:S 1119:( 1079:( 1054:( 1029:( 996:( 977:( 919:S 893:( 858:S 835:( 818:S 796:: 792:@ 781:( 746:S 724:( 708:( 678:( 651:( 637:( 609:( 582:( 560:( 518:( 494:( 479:( 432:( 387:( 366:( 339:( 313:( 295:( 280:( 254:( 239:( 149:( 92:( 50:.

Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.

Index