515:-- I think that an important point in Ido is its "unasenceso" (one-sensedness) principle. Every Ido root has one meaning, while some Esperanto roots actually have two close meanings: verbal and non-verbal. For instance, adolesko (a teenager) - adoleski (to grow up), aero (air) - aeri (to pump), aviado (aviation) - aviadi (to fly a plane). Some verb-noun pairs are modelled after English or other languages, e.g. akvo (water) - akvi (to water), almozo (alm) - almozi (to beg for alms) (and that's only a fraction of examples starting with A). Even more disturbing, some compound words are permitted to have a fixed meaning: lernejo (school) literally means only a place to learn. This is something that can never happen in Ido.
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cannot find much reference material which isn't biased. The
Esperantists feel betrayed by the evil Idists, and the Idists all seem to be martyrs of the cause of a better language. I know truth usually lies inbetween. I simply want to present how each side feels about the other. Perhaps there should be a seperate section on the movements' relationship? Thoughts anyway. And please feel free to add or edit.
456:. It seems to be detailed and complete (talks about compounds and the exceptions for week days), but it's in Ido itself (i only know Esperanto), so i don't understand some parts. I must say that i love (Â :-) ) regular spellings, and i see those rules as unnecessary complications for an international language (that was supposed to correct the problems of another!). I think the creators of Ido didn't like
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look at the dictionary) consideration I wrote about the number of roots in both languages (Esperanto vs Ido) got also deleted... Personally, if I wanted a neutral and schematical lenguage I'd go for
Esperanto, and if I wanted an international language, I'd go for interlingua. Ido does not do that well for both ways,
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Ido, so perhaps it is the one exception to all other language, but I've heard that the forced regularity of Ido on the surface level only serves to push its irregularities in deeper, where they aren't noticed by the novice, but where in the end they cause the same difficulties as the irregularities of Espo.
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I think the word international there is okay because it's in quotes and preceded by "the creators of Ido felt" - the creators did say that they were making a more "international" language, so as a quote it's accurate. Without the quotes or the statement that it was simply their view it would be a POV
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article, internationality is not mentioned at all, but neutrality in the other hand is mentioned as the main difference! ...I wrote a sentence about neutrality here and got deleted because it was not a valid POV? I think that the general information here is far too much ido-ist. The constatable (just
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Then
Esperanto could be less International (yet to be probed, though, as still there is not a clear countable relationship between "simmilarity of words", "number of languages the auxiliary languague is simmilar to" and "how widespread each one of those languages is") but Esperanto is then undoubtely
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Ido introduced a number of suffixes in an attempt to clarify the morphology of a given word, so that the part of speech of the root would not need to be memorized. In the case of the word krono "a crown", the suffix -izar "to cover with" is added to create the verb kronizar "to crown". From this verb
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I don't believe it. Those claims may be made, but they're not possible in human language. The only way Ido could maintain this level of perfect regularity would be if it were never spoken. As soon as you get a speaking community, people will start using words idiosyncratically. Granted, I don't know
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I've just looked it up and it seems that in Latin uter/utrum means "either", while neuter/neutrum means "none". Since this makes them opposites, the use of 'utrum' would be to emphasize this difference (i.e., that 'common' is not the same as 'neuter', but rather its opposite). Anyway, a replacement
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is mentioned: "a truly neutral language would draw its vocabulary from a much wider variety of languages, so as not to give unfair advantage to speakers of any of them". So please do not delete the statement about neutrality I wrote, I think that this comparing article is not neutral and claims the
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Memorizing the meaning of a root without memorizing if it's a noun or a verb? How does that work? What do you memorize? If you only memorize that "kron-" is something related to a crown, but can't remember if it's the noun "crown" or the verb "to crown", then you can't know if "krono" means "crown"
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I have started a history section, which at the moment seems very biased towards
Esperanto, but this is not actually the case. I am trying to write a section which will present, not just a history of the two languages, but also a history of the two movements' relationship to one another. Honestly, I
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are not semivowels, but separate vowels/syllables, and that the stress in such words is antepenultimate. Or, perhaps we could describe them as divocalic diphthongs (many languages do this: vowels retain their separate identities, but don't each constitute a separate syllable). The days of the week
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Anybody have any concrete numbers for the total amount of donations, purchases and whatnot for the
Esperanto community? For Ido it's quite easy because it's almost nothing. There's the yearly conference plus some books and dictionaries that can be bought, and the rest is all available on-line for
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The definition of a digraph is "a pair of letters, especially a pair representing a single phoneme," which is exactly what oj, aj, aux, etc. are, but they are also diphthongs. Therefore
Esperanto doesn't have one-to-one character correspondence as there are multiple digraphs which are also
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Also.. I don't see your point. You deleted my sentence about neutrality by saying "That's still debatable. Ido is more international." Did my sentence say that it wasn't? this is not an Ido vs. Esperanto fight, I'm not
Esperantist but I think this article does not take all the facts into
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In vocabulary it says: "However, Ido lacks the one-to-one correspondence between letters and phonemes that
Esperanto has, using the three digraphs qu, sh and ch. One-to-one correspondence has been adopted in Esperanto to ease pronunciation learning and parsability of the written text."
1372:, and if you didn't know you had to guess. In practice, everyone and everything was presumed male (the unmarked case), and being female was a notable deviation from the norm. This was the situation when Ido split, and was one of the points Ido explicitly wanted to improve.
709:.The entire "Internationality" section would be a POV then. If that section is kept, and since "internationality" and "neutrality" are antagonical concepts in the way this article understands it, I don't see why there is no place for the explanation about this duality.
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Yeah, the word internationality just invites POV. Since that section has to do with vocabulary as well, we can just remove the 'internationality' title. I agree that these "IAL x and IAL b compared" articles are all pretty bad. I don't even think they're necessary.
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on my talk page and it seems convincing to me, but since the overview is supposed to be a summary of the whole article and the information wasn't added to the main sections, I still feel this inclusion is somewhat wrong. I would like to see other opinions. -
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Reasonable analysis. The recent attempt to make
Esperanto gender-neutral seems like a clumsy workaround, as the language was not originally intended to be so. Perhaps we should include both descriptions in the overview table, mentioning that the question is
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it is possible to remove the verbal -ar and replace it with a nominal -o, creating the word kronizo "a coronation". By not allowing a noun to be used directly as a verb, as in
Esperanto, Ido verbal roots can be recognized without the need to memorize them.
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It suddenly strikes me that the year of this reformation of the artificial language, 1894, might have of influence to Orwell's 1984 next to the publication date of his work (1948)... otherwise it's a nice coincidence or an intertextuality by pure chance
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The chart explains that Ido requires accusative only if the object precedes the subject, but the examples given for Ido contrast in whether the object precedes the verb, not the subject. If the explanation is correct then it should be valid Ido to say
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It doesn't matter if they are to be believed. The principle is notable as a argument of Ido proponents regardless of its merit. I must look into the "unasenceso" idea, but for now I will add mention to the article as per my current understanding. --
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364:-- One change that Ido made is the stressed syllable of words. In Esperanto, it's easy and perfectly predictable where the stress is. In Ido, it's not as easy: usually it's on the penultimate syllable, but if the word ends with
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Esperanto has no digraphs (multiple letters corresponds to one sound), but has diphtongs like oj, aj (multiple sounds are somewhat merged into one sequence when pronounced, but they still consist from multiple sounds).
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is a father, not a parent. There is now no systematic way of knowing whether an unmarked noun is intended to be male-only or generic as it depends on the word and on how conservative the speaker's dialect is.
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289:, doesn't that destroy the morphological argument for Ido? How can the part of speech of the root be transparent if it can be used as either a noun or a verb without a suffix, like the Esperanto example of
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Internationality isn't supposed to mean the number of languages that supply some token cognates, which doesn't buy a speaker of any of them much, but rather how widespread all the chosen cognates are. --
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free. I always read about rich people from Hungary, Brazil and Japan pitching in for Esperanto though. Also how many people actually make a living just working for Espo? That would be interesting to add.
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555:"Adolesko" is a bad example. It doesn't mean "teenager". That's "adoleskanto". It's a verbal root, which does not mean "to grow up", but "to be an adolescent", so "adolesko" means "adolescence".
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is male, or at least not female). This situation is not stable, and part of a process which can lead to multiple outcomes. One example for this instability is the internal tension between, e.g.
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The chart makes it look like Ido is more international because its more Latin-like, whereas Eo has words from Germanic and Slavic languages, so it seems that Eo is more international to me.
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prefix might become obsolete in the future). I might also add that "gender-neutrality by default with exceptions" is the rule that is taught in the Duolingo Esperanto course. See also
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I also just realized that there is currently no orthography section. Since Esperanto's diacritics are a favorite object of criticism among Idists, there probably should be one. --
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The article itself cites no one that directly uses 'utrum' to refer to common gender, leading me to believe it was a Swedish editor that didn't know the English equivalent.
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Personally, I don't have a problem with moderately complex stress assignment. Because it's reinforced with every word you hear or say, it quickly becomes second nature.
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I was confused about what 'utrum' meant and why is was used 11 times throughout the article, so I searched it up. It's an obscure term that derives from Swedish
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Over time, such blatant sexism became less acceptable. Esperantists started adopting the male term as the generic term, so that a female lawyer could be an
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Yes, according to the Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto , it is a religious term. Although I do not know whether this is intentional or simply an error.
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consideration. Also a higher number of roots, being them also romance-like makes it less neutral, that's one of the reasons it is an important fact. --
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Exactly. Then please explain why that "internationality" concept is a difference between the two languages, and neutrality and number of roots is not.
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No. As described by other articles and grammar references (even here on Knowledge (XXG)), virtually all words are now (lexically) gender-neutral,
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Is Esperanto masculine by default or gender-neutral by default? The overview table originally described it as masculine by default, but an IP has
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they trend to be pronounced as single unit (but actually there is no strict rule on it - it's up to the reader how to pronounce such segments).
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by itself just signifies a person one is married to, male or female, and the addition of -ul- makes it clear that we're referring to a man.
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We already use Latin in taxonomy, so the Esperanto word for it is the closest to Latin, making it more memorized and more practical.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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Okay, this is the first bit of the article. Not sure if the url for the Fundamento is the best one so replace as you all see fit.
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It's important to add Latin language in the comparison. I feel that the claim that Esperanto deformed the root of words, such as
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That's nice, but the article should not be "Esperanto vs. Ido" but rather one that simply lists the differences between the two.
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would be regular, because it's only the high vowels /i/ and /u/ that are spelled the same as the semivowels /j/ and /w/. (But
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are not exceptions, since they're not compounds. (Espo also has many inherited compounds that aren't true compounds in Espo.)
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By the way, it is interesting how "internationality" is mentioned here as something more important than neutrality but in
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Maybe whenever there's another vowel available, -CiV and -CuV are counted as one final syllable and so don't take stress?
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by itself does just mean "spouse" but I don't think there are any derivations from that, except for awkward ones like
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But Esperanto does have digraphs. oj, aj, aux, etc. It even says there are digraphs on the Esperanto wiki page. --
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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Traditionally, there was no way of referring to a lawyer (for example) without referring to their gender. An
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I didn't say Ido was more international. I said some might make that argument, and both would be equally POV.
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The same applied to all professions, all people, all animals. If your neighbour's cat was male, it was
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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408:-- It seemed a perfecte rule to me until i found this (under "stress", or search for "rendévuo"):
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that refers to common gender (i.e., masculine and feminine genders, but not neuter gender). The
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The question is somewhat open to debate, and it depends to an extent on the speaker and context.
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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Somone made the chart where you can't read the Ido and Esperanto. I don't know how to fix it.
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Do these these issues deserve mentioning on the page? And what do Esperantists think of them?
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You're most likely right. It really doesn't seem like a real linguistic term in English. -
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1650:, Äi estas religia vorto. Kvankam mi ne scias, Äu tio estas dezirata, au simple eraro.
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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was explicitly a female lawyer. The most gender inclusive way of including both was
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Okay, I reworded it and removed 'internationality' as a section. How's it look now?
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which probably sounds about as good as "spousify" for marriage, which is just
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1506:(both forms are now read as gender-neutral, leading some to suggest that the
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https://web.archive.org/web/20111125103925/http://idomondo.org/skolo.1.6.pdf
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a masculine/third-gender reading when contrasted with a female word, as in
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Adjectives can precede the noun as in English, or follow the noun as in
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advantages of Ido without thinking of the advantages of Esperanto. --
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EÄ guto malgranda, konstante frapante, traboras la monton granitan.
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veteran about: on PLATO keyboards, double-quote is shift-comma. â
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Would the stress rule be "last vowel before the last consonant"?
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Linguists use angle brackets when exhibiting orthography, as in
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it to gender-neutral, stating it to be well-sourced. They gave
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considers that "diphtongs" as vowel+semivowel segments, while
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There is a new site about Esperanto1894 live online by now:
575:(From this Knowledge (XXG) article in Morphology section) --
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might be an exception because it's a compound, and the word
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988:"buffalo" is biased. In fact, the origin is Latin and it's
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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more neutral, as neutrality is supposed to mean, as in
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In at least some articles âčâș is preferred to <: -->
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Ido word order is generally the same as Esperanto (
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1070:"), the same way the problem with (horo, koro,
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1289:while the mandatory accusative would occur in
1181:This message was posted before February 2018.
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862:(not sound) correspondence, since Esperanto
737:That's better, thanks. I'd also change the "
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1148:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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755:statement, yes.
743:more "romancish"
607:Internationality
293:? Just curious.
281:Mithradates, if
277:optional affixes
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980:Comparison bias
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788:Cameron Nedland
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868:phonetically
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841:diphthongs.
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747:80.174.65.68
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693:80.174.65.68
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79:WikiProjects
47:No consensus
46:
1663:TucanHolmes
1519:TucanHolmes
1082:Mahmudmasri
1002:Mahmudmasri
909:When I saw
892:stands for
821:âPreceding
757:Mithridates
730:Mithridates
721:Mithridates
702:Mithridates
680:Mithridates
320:Mithridates
291:krono/kroni
269:Mithridates
1681:Categories
1353:advokatino
1244:Report bug
1099:word order
891:<Ä: -->
796:Vocabulary
511:unasenceso
1646:Lau PIV,
1561:Kosinvita
1430:debatable
1267:Jansegers
1227:this tool
1220:this tool
864:phonology
624:Dissident
486:etc. the
103:Esperanto
1631:âTamfang
1617:emphasis
1607:contribs
1586:contribs
1503:geamikoj
1444:contribs
1411:Kahastok
1379:advokato
1349:advokato
1333:contribs
1233:Cheers.â
1115:. Thus,
1068:caballus
1052:kabbalah
823:unsigned
484:-ia, -ua
312:mariajar
308:spozigar
262:Finances
39:deletion
1656:transl.
1598:Munmula
1577:Munmula
1435:Munmula
1387:man-cat
1383:virkato
1324:Munmula
1314:changed
1295:KVenzke
1157:my edit
1131:Tamfang
1113:Spanish
1030:Tamfang
990:bubalus
950:Tamfang
936:Tamfang
919:Tamfang
860:phoneme
440:egĂłismo
424:OmnadĂa
283:spozulo
191:on the
69:B-class
1497:amikoj
1470:eunuch
1465:eĆnuko
1391:katiÄo
1370:katino
1308:Gender
1076:koruso
1064:cheval
1060:Kavala
1056:Kavalo
1048:kabalo
1026:kavalo
1022:kabalo
1018:Äevalo
986:bubalo
474:Yuu en
414:Yuu en
390:Yuu en
75:scale.
1625:manuo
1544:utrum
1491:amiko
1472:, or
1459:frato
1404:patro
1400:frato
1389:, or
1385:i.e.
915:PLATO
782:Chart
577:Naytz
542:Naytz
531:kwami
502:kwami
444:kwami
436:Muzéo
400:kwami
378:radio
334:kwami
316:spozo
304:spozo
295:kwami
287:spozo
1668:talk
1635:talk
1603:talk
1582:talk
1565:talk
1524:talk
1500:and
1480:gain
1475:damo
1468:, a
1440:talk
1418:talk
1366:kato
1329:talk
1299:talk
1271:talk
1135:talk
1086:talk
1072:Ä„oro
1054:and
1034:talk
1006:talk
971:talk
954:talk
940:talk
923:talk
900:talk
876:talk
850:talk
831:talk
810:talk
628:Talk
597:talk
581:talk
561:talk
546:talk
520:Alih
490:and
468:and
460:and
384:and
372:and
330:-ulo
248:Note
45:was
1648:jes
1623:Äu
1509:ge-
1201:RfC
1171:to
1028:. â
1024:or
967:N-k
934:. â
896:N-k
428:dia
349:Jon
183:Mid
1683::
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1605:·
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1442:·
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1209:}}
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492:u
488:i
470:u
466:i
462:w
458:y
432:i
386:w
382:y
374:u
370:i
366:r
233:.
215:.
195:.
81::
49:.
20:)
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