2061:@Piotrus, You keep repeating that refrain, but as I have asked of you many times, bring some reliable evidence to bear. You have yet to do so. Racism pertains to race. It's in the word, and it's in the ideology. Now, it may be that European and North American societies have been dominated by the ideological concepts of race and racism over the past couple of centuries, so I can understand if Westerners have a habit of viewing things in racial terms, and have a hard time conceiving or talking outside of them. But race construction is not something that Knowledge should be engaging in lightly, much less implicitly promoting. That is merely repeating bad 19th Century habits and effectively endorsing and promoting racist ideologies. Knowledge should not be a place for tossing around racial theories of editors' invention, so you have to take caution. Unless it is referred to explicitly in those terms in reliable sources, they should not be included.
2084:"China is a largely homogenous society; over 90% of its population has historically been Han Chinese. Some of the country's ethnic groups are distinguishable by physical appearance and relatively-low intermarriage rates. Others have married Han Chinese and resemble them. A growing number of ethnic minorities are fluent at a native level in Mandarin Chinese. Children sometimes receive ethnic-minority status at birth if one of their parents belongs to an ethnic minority, even if their ancestry is predominantly Han Chinese. Pockets of immigrants and foreign residents exist in some cities."
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people" notes that
English teachers who are "white" are allegedly favoured over other peoples. All the sources are from American- or British-based media. I know in the West, being considered "white" is associated with European ancestry and appearance, but mainland China is not America and it seems like some Western sources discussing discrimination in mainland China have a hard time accepting that. I have seen labels like "Yellow" being used in non-Western countries, which are considered obsolete in the Anglophone world.
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1480:, As Santa said above. Racism is not just about race, the term is much more broadly understood these days. This is not a fringe viewpoint, this a generally accepted scholarly consensus. That said, the section you linked, as well as 'Summary of varieties of Chinese', should be removed - not only they are irrelevant to anything related to racism, but in fact, they are not relevant to 'ethnic issues'. Listing of ethnic groups/languages is not an 'ethnic issue' anyway.
1792:. The article is still encompasses far more than racism. It's been a little more narrowed, but still not much improved since last RM. A separate article on "Racism in China" should still be maintained until this article is improved. It would be preferable for the elements dealing specifically with racism (as distinct from more generic language, caste, xenophobia, etc.) in this article be exported there, and leave this as a general "Ethnic issues" article.
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something that is quite identifiable as "Racism in China" in the modern era. However, one should be very careful in
Knowledge using these terms haphazardly and applying them anachronistically to pre-modern China without solid scholarly backing at every turn. Not only is it imposing a modern Western ideological prism where it does not fit, but even more problematically it is inadvertently endorsing a modern racist Chinese view of Chinese history.
1020:. "Ethnic issues" is just a weaseling synonym for racism ("this country doesn't have racism problems, unlike rest of the world, we just have, errrr, some ethnic issues. Move on, nothing serious to see here."). Regarding the arguments in the prior RM last year that this article covers wider topics than just racism, no, sorry. Ethnic issues is just a rare synonym for racism that nobody even bothered redirecting yet. See the wider context at
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1210:, Some of this content simply needs blanking (or merging somewhere else). For example, "categorization of Han Chinese subgroups" is not even an "ethnic issue", it is just a weird see also. Caused, probably, by the very fact that this article using an ambiguous name inviting such a see also maybe it's related subsections. Anything that is not about racial or ethnic discrimination should go, as simple as that.
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1924:(either on Knowledge or in academia). This article was a mess precisely because it was using a weasely, ill-defined concept as its name. After the cleanup (removal of topics that are irrelevant to racism), the article's present content is quite relevant to the topic of racism (which also, as explained is inclusive of the idea of ethnic discrimination).
1165:, Per my comments above and below, it's the same topic. Ethnic issues is just a Wiki-invention that has been used by people who either misunderstand that racism is a broad term that applies to ethnicity, not just race (even UN agrees on this), or worse, used by those who want to muddle the waters and deny that racism is an issue in their country.
1920:, And I concur that eventually, the article should discuss those issues, which right now it pretty much does not. That fact, however, bears little relevance to the topics of merging or renaming, which for the n-th time, simply center on the issue that I keep pointing out and you keep ignoring - namely, that there is no well-defined construct as
1882:
To reiterate from the WikiProject, racism is about "race", a 18th/19th
Century construction by European "scientists". There actually has been a construction of "Han race", by Chinese "scientists" in the late 19th Century, and Chinese revisionist history applying them retroactively, both feeding into
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and it should probably be deleted. Anyway, consensus is that the common name for racism is, in fact, "racism", and that consistency with other countries' articles about racism effectively mandates that this page be moved to the proposed title. There was great discussion about the scope of this title.
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So you're saying that, for instance, categorization of Han
Chinese subgroups or Qing-dynasty conflicts between Hui and Manchus are racism? Is this analysis supported by reliable sources? To be honest this article is a mess and I'm not sure what should be done with it, but I don't think the answer is
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Though, as far as this article is concerned, I have no problems with the section saying "European or
European-descended people" instead of "race" (i.e - "Caucasian", "White", etc), as it's in-line with the other sub-sections identifying ethnic/religious/cultural terms instead of "race". Though I'm
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are one of China's 55 recognized minorities, and
Russians are considered an Eastern European ethnic group (though most of their modern county is geographically in Northern Asia). Some Chinese of Russian descent have discussed being treated like "outsiders" in their own native country, like this
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On a tangent but still related to racial constructions, I have somewhat of a problem with several
Western media sources cited that assert Western racial constructs onto a non-Western society like mainland China. For example, the section about "Biases in favor of European and European-descended
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The "has historically been" is OR. The reference is to current population as listed CIA factbook. It makes no conjectures about past composition. The rest of the paragraph is completely OR, with some very speculative and rather sinister connotations of race construction ("distinguishable by
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He doesn't appear to talk about having any "favourable biases" he has in society. Though the article is from an
American media company (CNN), and does try to get into pseudo-science about Han Chinese "racial features"... which is rather ridiculous since many peoples have "Han Chinese racial
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As said above, "ethnic issues" is a term generally used only by
Knowledge. The closest match Google can find is "ethnic conflicts". As well, I read the article with the lens of "Racism in China" and then again with the lens of "Ethnic issues in China", and the former just makes more sense.
2198:).Does anyone know where {{Failed verification|date=March 2018}} was copied from? Because this edit adds too much content and it takes too much time to check, it is difficult to confirm reliability.If anyone knows the copy source, we can check from the copy source's edit history.
2128:, is that when trying to discuss discrimination, he applies an American-centric view of "race" and "discrimination". Seemingly downplaying discrimination in Chinese society as not being "KKK levels" of hatred. Also, despite literally noting that the Han Chinese people he met
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Just a minor comment to the closer that I volunteer to do the merge if it is required, to ease the workload for the closers. The article is messy, but what we definitely don't need is a POVFORK under an ORish name that effectively tried to deny that racism is a problem in
2108:- I know this was back in 2021, but I have removed that entire subsequent sentences because it seems to be original research that doesn't cite RS. The only information from CIA Factbook is that China is relatively "homogeneous", with a majority Han Chinese population.
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Given that a plethora of
Wikipedians have decided to support this move, I'd like to request the removal or revision of anachronistic sections where Knowledge editors engage in gratuitous race construction without RS backing. I mean particularly passages like this:
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which go unmentioned, nothing on Liang Qichao, "Great Han" race construction and historiography, etc. There deserves to be an article on "Racism in China". But this is not it. It just seems like a random slapdash crime blotter pasted together for no reason.
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Everything before 19th Century, frankly. Heck, I'd remove everything that is not "Modern China". The word is being tossed around quite loosely and anachronistically here, without paying attention to scholarship on Chinese racism. There are articles on
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I donât know why I said what I said. I had been up for around 20 hours and I was really tired. Iâve changed my stance from oppose to support after reading the article in full and reading everyoneâs points (I had just skimmed over them before). Thanks!
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consider themselves to be "white people", Fallows, being an American and Han Chinese people are not considered "white" in America, doesn't take their claims of "whiteness" seriously. Especially since he himself is considered a "white" man in
1400:, As explained here and in the WikiProject discussion, the concept of racism is applied to ethnicity as well (the name is a bit misleading, which is why occasionally some scholars use different terminology like ethnic discrimination or
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by the ruling Han Chinese in imperial China has been documented in historical texts such as Yan Shigu's commentary on the Book of Han, in which the Wusun people were called "barbarians who have green eyes and red hair" and compared to
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If you see "ethnic issues" as a euphemism to obfuscate racism, I can understand that. I was being charitable and assuming that "ethnic issues in..." is a (vague) descriptive title which is certainly permitted at Knowledge per
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As the title stands, it sure looks like it would be about the entire history of racism in China, a topic that will probably deserve multiple articles about multiple epochs in Chinese history. For now, the page is moved.
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where a Wikipedian decided on his own to classify ancient Han and Wusun as "races", seemingly attracted by the defunct ideology that phenotypes constitute "races", and consequently slurs are "racial".
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but generally most people, and scholars, stick with 'racism', and anyway, we can use redirects when necessary). You totally ignore the fact that the very term "ethnic issues" is a Knowledge invention.
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As noted in this American article discussing discrimination in China. This goes against modern American/Western connotations of "whiteness", but does not invalidate how Han Chinese may see themselves.
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And merely saying something is "racial" in this context probably means it is proposed to be a genetic tendency for that "race". As opposed to say, a cultural difference in dressing habits.
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1865:(if you disagree, please define this concept by writing an article about this - still a red link). You are welcome to both expand this article, and remove parts you feel are irrelevant.
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I don't see how noticing that a group of people tend to look a certain way is pseudoscience. Noticing that the Dutch are tall or have high rates of blue eyes is not pseudoscience.
1758:. As written, the subject is not just a sentiment, but actual political repression, up to genocide, although "racism" possibly covers everything. In no way this is just "issues".
2020:, This can be reworded to "racial and ethnic slurs", but otherwise seems relevant here. As was explained to you several times, the notion of racism is not limited to race alone.
1623:, Did you read arguments made by me and Santa? Would you mind addressing them? Because we very much addressed the old points you refer them, pointing out why they are not valid.
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1008:â This is one of only three Knowledge articles in existence that uses the form "ethnic issues in Foo" instead of common "racism in Foo". We don't even have a redirect for
2041:, which is not permitted. I agree with Walrasiad that it should be removed unless a source can be found for the claim that this Book of Han quote includes racial slurs. â
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titles a page with content and so it is ineligible as a new "target" title. If a merger is preferred, then please withdraw this request and follow the instructions at
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1250:, In that case, maybe you can reconsider your object vote above? Note I have removed the most off topic sections (which don't belong in the current article anyway).
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In post-modern and especially in postcolonial studies, racism definition is quite broadened (rightly so) to include both ethnic and cultural chauvinist concepts.--
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article or removing the non-racism material would be a start to improving the situation. (Note to admin/closer: if there is a merge, please merge the newer
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not sure if the alleged "biases" in favour of Europeans or European descended people is an entirely true statement. It seems to be more for foreigners.
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These are important points. Whether or not the two articles are merged, this one needs a lot of cleanup and the other one needs a lot of expansion. â
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should get any kind of special treatment when it comes to their racism issues. Get rid of the current Racism in China article and move this there.
1092:. The points made in the last RM remain valid â some of the topics discussed in this article fall into the category of racism, but others don't. â
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1337:- "issues" is vague expression, which is, to be blunt, probably used to avoid unpleasant gravity and association that word "racism" carries.--
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1055:. Otherwise, a new page name or disambiguator will be needed for the targeted article. This request has been modified to reflect that fact.
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article, but the focus is clearer now and a merge seems feasible. More cleanup for focus, NPOV, and verifiability will still be needed. â
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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to some readers, to ensure a quality article and complete coverage of its subject matter. For more information, please refer to
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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1522:. The article as it stands is a mess. I'm not volunteering, but moving the racism material from this article to the
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For example, many Han Chinese do consider themselves to be "white" people due to their "white" (or light) skin tone.
1861:, The fact that this article is poor and incomplete doesn't mean it is not about racism. There is no such thing as
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related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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the (malformed) requested move based on the current text of the article per the previous RM above. Inclined to
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physical characteristics" .. say what?). No references are given. This should be revised or removed.
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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fleshed out enough to stand on its own, and think it makes sense for them to be merged.--
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1809:, Which sections still present in this article do you think are not related to racism?
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Oppose: I see no reason why the points made in the September 2020 RM arenât valid now.
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article with a bunch of information about Chinese ethnicities and ethnic conflicts. â
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One of my problems with said article, written by American writer and journalist
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article already exists. Are you proposing a page move or a merge? Either way,
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More race construction problems. The following is in the first paragraph:
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article, not to merge in a bunch of material about a different topic. â
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and then move it to preserve the more substantial edit history.) â
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I saw {{Failed verification|date=March 2018}} that was adding by
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features", if that means stereotypical East Asian appearance.
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White skin (the Chinese like to consider themselves white)
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Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the
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has been authorised by the community for pages related to
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Talk:Ethnic issues in the People's Republic of China
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1004:â tiny stub, easily merged with the current article
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1355:Possibly. Especially since this "
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1016:. This is just an outlier in the
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53:Put new text under old text.
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1600:Dđ¶ggy54321
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1189:Mx. Granger
1163:Mx. Granger
1144:Mx. Granger
1094:Mx. Granger
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2216:Categories
2028:reply here
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1958:Rreagan007
1932:reply here
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1817:reply here
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1689:per nom. â
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1558:reply here
1488:reply here
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1258:reply here
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1173:reply here
1032:reply here
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2018:Walrasiad
2004:Walrasiad
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2053:contribs
1909:contribs
1726:unsigned
1606:Support:
1582:â
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1533:this one
1436:WP:NDESC
1322:Ortizesp
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1118:Ortizesp
1104:contribs
1053:WP:MERGE
1012:, nor a
909:PrimeBOT
620:Politics
611:politics
567:Politics
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864:history
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736:on the
647:on the
542:on the
437:on the
348:on the
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165:WPÂ refs
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2183:About
2167:Gelbom
1790:Oppose
1550:China.
1528:racism
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1508:Oppose
1090:oppose
245:scale.
137:Google
1574:Japan
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978:Slash
951:Moved
858:with
321:China
312:China
268:China
180:JSTOR
141:books
95:Seek
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2144:man.
2104:Hi @
2095:talk
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2008:talk
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728:High
173:FENS
147:news
84:and
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972:Red
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