Talk:Ethnicity of Cleopatra

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give an evidence-based baseline on what "race" might be expected from any purported Egyptian ancestry - I most consciously avoided drawing any conclusions about what Cleopatra would have looked like, and made no mention of which theories are effectively refuted or supported by these data... I deliberately left it so the reader can interpret and weight the DNA data as they see fit. Most theories of her ancestry were created before DNA was available, and it would be remiss of this page to fail to include genetic discoveries as a source of evidence just because they are at odds with some popular pre-DNA assumptions.

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significance of Upper and Lower "Egypt" (which is a European word for Kemet), or the region of Nubia, including "Ethiopia" (which was the Greek word for Kush). The audience (and obviously some editors) is preoccupied with race, when the people of antiquity had no concept of race. And the people of antiquity certainly did not flatten diverse African ethnicities into "Black," and therefore any citation as to Blackness is devoid of pertinent information on the topic of Cleopatra's ethnicity. This problem is, unfortunately, reflected in the Eurocentric scholarship. So Knowledge (XXG) doesn't really have a solution.

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in the lede. A more proper introduction would not favor certain scholars, rather it would summarize the generally accepted conclusions of the totality of the scholarship. The following sentence in the lede is much more appropriate in my opinion: "Scholars generally identify Cleopatra as having been essentially of Greek ancestry with some Persian and Sogdian Iranian ancestry, based on the fact that her Macedonian Greek family (the Ptolemaic dynasty) had intermarried with the Seleucid dynasty." I would add the word "Currently" to the beginning of the sentence to make explicit that scholarship is still on-going.

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getting a general overview of all opinions!) and was very surprised to see a lack of any genetic data here - especially since it's been around for over 5 years now, has an impact on some of the more extreme theories, and has robust support in scientific circles. I came here to the Talk page to see if there was discussion about it and found this section, which indicates at least some other people are interested in what the current state of DNA research on the matter has to say. Hence why I suggested a section dedicated to what we know about the genetics of Egypt at Cleopatra's time.

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comments on Cleopatra are the section in the book of his I read, which also has other glaring claims/errors, then this discussion is moot. EDIT: Apparently Clarke never was trained in history and in fact did not have a college degree at all until the 90s, from an uncredited university, but strangely worked as a professor at Hunter long before that. This lack of historical training explains very much his poor scholarship on Cleopatra, the New Testament, and ancient data generally. Interesting, but again, not the point of the article's talk pagem

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explained as such in the Arsinoe II section, where it clearly states none of the Ptolemaic royal family's remains have been discovered (and perhaps lost forever given how much of old Alexandria is now underwater). Plutarch suggests Cleopatra might have been mummified like a native Egyptian, but it's also possible she was just cremated like most ancient Greeks in their funerary practices. Until we find the remains of Cleopatra and cite a work analyzing her DNA, a broader discussion about genetics isn't terrible relevant here.

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written so long after she died to have even contributed to it. In any case, you seem far more interested in defending Clarke's "honor" than contributing to wiki editing, which is what the talk page is for, not for debates. Mary Lefkowitz has an extensive understanding of ancient history that warrants her inclusion here, including her criticism of Clarke's poor and bizarre claim he refused to retract. Cleopatra was of primarily Macedonian descent as far as we know, and the concept of

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she was Black. Diana Preston (2009) says the same. This topic is already covered, and since we do not have any genetic testing on any Ptolemy (which itself would not prove how Cleopatra SELF-identified), it is rather unrelated, as both PericlesofAthens and Wdford have pointed out. This article concerns historical scholarship about Cleopatra specifically, and absent any direct DNA testing on her, general studies on ancient Egyptian genetics will remain irrelevant.

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himself. In fact, in the body where this information is repeated (in a more appropriate place in my opinion) she notes that J.A. Rogers' published claim as to Cleopatra's "blackness" had incorrectly cited Britannica. The lede should not include Lefkowitz's refutation of a strawman argument which is not cited, for the very reason that she claims that other published works on this topic include incorrect information which were not properly cited.

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Classics or Antiquities. To have a disagreement over conclusions is one thing, but to deny the purpose of that which she debates against is evidence of bad faith argumentation. I'm quoting her: " don't need Greece..." As if the truth is governed by teleology! Basically, she is acting like an "agent," which is an understandable/ discernable claim to anyone who is politically conscious.

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that his scholarship was perfect. But this does sufficiently answer Lefkowitz, and it is unsurprising that English language wikipedia is just as obtuse about this language as Lwfkowitz herself. (All of this was in my first comment, and the fact that people do not address it, is further proof that this entire subject is misunderstood within a culture of white supremacy)

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on the ancient world and so on. And the idea of her being "Black" by our modern standards has been a persistent topic around her. I see no contemporary sources written from Cleopatra herself on whether she identified as being "Black" or "White" or "Brown" the same way a modern-day American may say they're such. And even if we apply

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has always included people who by U.S. Standards would be considered "Black." If Cleopatra had Egyptian ancestry, it is possible, although not certain, she would be "Black" by U.S. Standards, or at least Brown. But the point of the page is not the ancient Egypt race controversy, it is Cleopatra's ethnic and cultural identity.

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the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." Like I said, and like the style guide suggests, very specific points belong in the body and NOT the lede. In fact, the article already completely repeats itself and the redundancy is improperly placed in the lede.

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Personally, I find no reason to include any mention of modern debates which apply modern racial constructs to a woman who was born over 2000 years ago and lived in a kingdom which no longer exists. But the page has citations and opinions from reliable sources and/or actual professors/experts focusing

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Clarke so brazingly unable to confirm that Cleopatra in the Book of Acts called herself Black is an embarrassing claim and extremely poor scholarship. It also demonstrates his lack of engagement with ancient sources, since we have no first-hand accounts written by Cleopatra, and the New Testament was

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He specifically said that Black is being misunderstood. He specifically said he defends Cleopatra as an African Nationalist. Clarke isnt "fringe," rather the English-language Classics departments is obsessed with their own misunderstanding of the word Black in afrocentrist study. This is not to imply

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Furthermore, during the 1996 debate between John Henrik Clarke/ Martin Bernal vs Lefkowitz/ Guy Rogers (recorded and available on YouTube), Clarke makes his position clear: "I think you have emphasized too much the word "Black"... I did not say Cleopatra was Black... my defense of Cleopatra is not on

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You are extrapolating about me erroneously. My intention is only to add factual information to the page - I don't personally care if ancient Egypt was homogeneous or heterogeneous, I only care what the data say about their genetic makeup. I don't care if modern Egyptians are cast as colonisers, or as

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What you seem to be invested in here is "proving" a complex and ancient culture was homogeneous when the reality of quite different, even going so far as attempt to cast modern Egyptians as Arab colonizers who have no claim to their history. Unless you are an Egyptian, you have no claim to it either.

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If you look at the sources cited on this page about Cleopatra's ancestry, almost all of them are from after DNA testing became realized (save for Grant (1972) and he is quite clear Cleopatra was Macedonian.) For example, Roller (2010) speculates she was a quarter Egyptian, but says this does not mean

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It is already stated on here by Diana Preston that if her grandmother was Egyptian it does not follow she was Black. That study that you is also biased to a certain region and time in Egyptian history. Egypt then as now is incredibly genetically diverse (noted on this page as well by Daniel Nour) and

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Clarke is obviously not a reliable source for this topic but, I don't see why his fringe theories and claims should not get at least the briefest of mentions (like in the opening section). It's my understanding that Cleopatra was not from the modern-day countries of Egypt or Greece, and although her

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The style guide you reference does NOT provide any justification for including specific scholars in the lede. In fact, it requires an overview. Lefkowiz's ideas do NOT meet any of those criteria: "a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why

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Lefkowitz wrote a book, "Not Out of Africa" (with racially offensive cover art and bad faith critiques of Martin Bernal's "Black Athena") that claimed that Afrocentrism was an anti-scholarly pursuit. That thesis alone should discredit her as an authority on this topic, regardless of her authority on

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Your "presumably" might make sense as a null hypothesis in the lack of data, but we have data now, and that "presumably" turns out to be most likely incorrect and so will need strong evidence to support it. Based on the genetic data there does not seem to have been a particularly higher frequency of

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sibling article covers this topic about native Egyptians more succinctly. The bulk of the Cleopatra article focuses on her Macedonian Greek lineage and hence the Southeastern European origins of her royal family, but DNA analysis or genomic studies aren't terribly relevant for the Ptolemies. This is

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When I followed up on Asante's article (link was dead, I included archived version in the edit), I noticed his main response to her work wasn't given, and that the quote that had been pulled from the article was only addressing one of Lefkowitz' "three axes." I hope the edit better captures Asante's

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I suggest removing any mention of Lefkowitz in the lede, despite her prominence in Classics (because of her obvious bias regarding this topic). Furthermore, Clarke's scholarship should not be straw-manned anywhere in the article, without citations, and certainly not by Lefkowitz, and absolutely not

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Others here have already answered your question, but to avoid pointless discussion in the future and if you are simply curious about the date an article was created, you can simply figure that out by exploring the article's "History" tab and seeing the list of revisions over time. Netflix is a blip

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as well as contributing to other genetics and human evolution-related articles (and some completely unrelated one too!). After seeing the Netflix kerfuffle on social media I came to Knowledge (XXG), and thus this page, looking for a general overview of the current state of thinking (WP is great for

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I think conclusions like this should be left to the reader (although there are cites from Bradford and Watterson already in the article drawing those conclusions). What I proposed (and wrote - now deleted) in the Genetics section is a summary of the ancient Egyptian DNA we have to date, intended to

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Thanks everybody for your responses. After taking a break for a few days and then re-reading the current article I'm happy to drop it. The article is more a discussion the "controversy" part (ie what people have said) than the actual "race" part (ie what are the facts) and so what I proposed isn't

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If you can find a reliable academic source that says Cleopatra would have looked brown/olive instead of black were she to be mixed Greek and Egyptian (with a bit of Sogdian Iranian ancestry), then by all means share it and cite it correctly in the article. Otherwise this seems like a waste of time

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The article currently says that a woman was C's half-sister. Then, later, we read that they had the same father "but may have had different mothers." If we say they were(not "might have been") half-sisters and that they had (not "might have had") the same father, then I see no reason for saying

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is only about 200 years old, so claiming her as a nationalist figure for any culture at all is highly anachronistic. This page is not for the Afrocentric or Eurocentric debate but for discussing Cleopatra in her ancient context. If you have suggestions on that, feel free, but since Clarke's only

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her Blackness, but on - no matter whatever she was - she was born in Africa, she defended, her manipulation of Marc Antony and Caesar kept the worst aspects of Roman rule from the backs of Africa. I defend her as an African Nationalist..." (this quote comes at the 1:03:17 mark in the video here:

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The section would not be about proving ancestry of native Egyptians, it would be summarising the existing genetics of Ancients Egyptians to give an evidence-based baseline of what degree of what ancestral component we would expect *if* there were any Egyptian ancestry in Cleopatra. At the moment

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Basically, the lede for this article should not include someone so biased on this topic (Lefkowitz). And it absolutely should not include Dr Clarke as a strawman for the indigenous African ethnicity of Cleopatra, because her claim as to his argument is not properly cited and is denied by Clarke

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This is a project I'd like to take on some day, & could be applied to more of Knowledge (XXG) than just Ancient Egypt. Take one of the standard authorities of history or culture -- Herotodus, the Elder Pliny, the writings of Breasted or Kenneth Kitchen, & see if you can't smoothly merge

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Science, and particularly genetics, often conflicts with the current popular opinion in history, sociology and the lay public, but some people like to have a bedrock of fact by which to compare and assess the potential validity of the various competing theories. If I end up creating a genetics

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Frankly, this whole article, on English language Knowledge (XXG), is not in proper context considering the audience. Nearly all English-speakers understand what "Greek" means, and they have a passing understanding of Greece in antiquity. But very few English-speakers understand the historical

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Conséquently, adding a section about proving ancestry of native Egyptians on the article of a Macedonian queen is irrelevant and unhelpful. If one does appear, however, I will happily buttress it with historical analysis explaining the racial complexity of Egypt. (Aka there are today and then

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from the Roman era are a good representation of ancient Egyptians; overall they look like olive or brown MENA people (Anatolia/Mesopotamia/Levant/Libya/Maghreb), but some look black with very frizzy Afro hair and facial features similar to an Ethiopian. Of course, none of this is relevant to

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Several (n=151) Egyptian mummies from before and after Cleopatra's time have had their DNA sequenced and cluster slightly more with populations North-East than modern Egyptian samples (who have recent Arab admixture), strongly suggesting origins in the Levant, not sub-Saharan Africa (see

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ancestors were not ethnically natives of Egypt, they're still considered rulers of Ancient Egypt. As has been discussed in the page. But his bizarre and anachronistic ideas of Cleopatra being some sort of of pan-nationalist symbol as the OP of this discussion seems to assert is just odd?

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of this page is literally speculation that that she has native Egyptian ancestry, so scientific evidence as to the "race" of such ancestry has to bear some relevance. You will note that I also included Nubian DNA ("Aethiopian") as that is the other putative non-Eurasian source

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For these reasons I think a brief section on Genetics would be helpful and give scientific background as to what "race" might reasonably be inferred from the purported ancestries - especially where it's different to what most people might assume. If you really think an

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The most scholarly sources behind the supposed "controversy" are found on Instagram and Facebook, so a more encyclopedic tone in the title is good IMO, even with the understanding the current title situation results from a mirror of the article it was forked from.

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The facts regarding Cleopatra's race are unknown and unknowable, and will remain so until her physical remains are found and studied. That might never happen, but until then we are stuck with speculation from persons with racial and political agendas of their own.

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A new netflix programs that appears to depict Cleopatra as a Black African queen caused an insane overreaction and this page and the main page have become targets of deranged obsessives who are upset by it. I had to get an actual lock for this page.

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specifies that we have to "summarize significant opinions with representation in proportion to their prominence". In other words, the most prominent opinions get most of the space, fringe theories should be covered in less detail or not at all.

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specifies that the lead should be "a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies" And

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The existence of this Talk-page section (which was here when I came - I didn't start it) shows at least some readers are interested in what facts genetics can contribute to the discussion - even if they aren't as conclusive as her own DNA would

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The "certain region and time" that the study covers includes both the birthplace of Cleopatra and the time period in which she lived. More importantly though, similar results have been replicated in other studies using different samples (see

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A boring task, but the benefit of doing it is that you can set the dates !(e.g., why say Khufu lived 2589-2566? As long as you keep the length of his reign correct, or cite a respected source, you can date it 2590-2567 or 2585-2563)

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EDIT: I have learned that my source for Cameron incorrectly stated that he claimed Cleopatra VII had an Ethiopian grandmother. His article actually discusses Didyme, the Egyptian mistress of Ptolemy II, who is discussed in article.

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Which by the way, I do think Cleopatra's grandmother was Macedonian, but if the point is to prove Cleopatra is not "Black", then adding scholarly speculation on her possibly having undeniable "Black" African genes would be in

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Facts related to genetics I hope. :) I've added the section and have tried to make it as factual and impartial as possible, while still accurately representing the very one-sided nature of the genetic data available to date.

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concepts of "race" to antiquity, I see nothing confirming why Cleopatra, a royal woman of Macedonian descent, would see any supposed "racial affinity" with say, the Germanic tribes of Northern Europe who were considered

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And it takes no rocket science to see there are Black Egyptians today and presumably always have been. As someone who has been to Egypt I can confirm to you Egypt does not conform to the narrow American point of view on

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Race is a discredited term when it comes to human beings. It should not be used that way in an article like this one. Just take a look at the Jena Declaration which is only the most recent statement on that topic.

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None of her family have been found. They were all likely buried in the Soma, which was in the royal quarter of Alexandria, like Queen Cleopatra's tomb? Which is underwater / was destroyed over the many centuries.

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I think it is best to keep genetics off this page since we have none of the royal Ptolemies. The "general" genetics of native Egyptians says nothing of HER own genetic make-up. But we can certainly consensus on

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And i didnt suggest removing Lefkowitz. My suggestion was to make the lede more in compliance with Wiki style guide, which requires SUMMARIES and does not ask for specifics and the scholars who maintain those

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You are correct, she is not. Clarke directly claims so in his book, I have read it. Why he would deny it according to this anon user is pretty embarassing, instead of just admitting that he was wrong.

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The main issue is that we do not have any of Cleopatra's DNA to test - nor that of any of her close relatives. There are other articles where Afrocentrists speculate generally about the

4030: 2625:, was half-Sudanese and considered (mixed race) black African. Their presence in Egypt alone since at least the Middle Kingdom period (and certainly after the New Kingdom conquered the 982: 3347:– There is no real "controversy," & the current title sensationalizes the subject in an unhelpful way. I think it should be renamed to Ethnicity of Cleopatra or something similar. 2074: 1952: 2839:, but the genetics has nothing to do with Cleopatra herself. I moved the first line to the Arsinoe section, since she is actually the only family member some have claimed to be found. 1801: 804: 3630:"A more proper introduction would not favor certain scholars, rather it would summarize the generally accepted conclusions of the totality of the scholarship." We can not do that. 1749: 3970: 147: 1774: 1764: 1347: 1048: 309: 266: 4055: 4020: 3683:

Clarke is a fringe theorist. I read his nonsense about Cleopatra and he did claim in his book that she described herself as Black in the New Testament, which is embarrassing.

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I do not know who is "more prominent," but when it comes to ancient history, Lefkowitz, who has been the target of obsessive antisemitic Afrocentrists, has the upper-hand.

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survivors of colonisation, or even as joyous willing converters - I just care what the data say about their ancestry components. The politics doesn't interest me, facts do.

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the

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Lefkowitz is recognized worldwide as one of the leading experts on Ancient Greece, and her books are published by such as Yale, Johns Hopkins and Oxford University Press.

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quotations or information into relevant articles. Probably a good exercise for someone who owns one of those impressive texts, yet can't get access to a research library.

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No, and it also WASN'T. And, in general, she was not even a good ruler or person at all. We have to made a list of the people she had killed... from his own family?

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To start with, most of the general history articles badly need attention. And I'm told that at least some of the dynasty articles need work. Any other candidates?

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also, John Henrick Clarke is much more prominent than Mary Lefkowitz. Despite the yearnings of the Ivy League and reactionary political science publications

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Not formalizing a process before input, but I would suggest "Cleopatra race controversy" to avoid the controversial implication that Cleopatra had "race". --

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section, it would be great if you let the facts speak for themselves and leave any "buttressing" for any particular viewpoint to the rest of the article.

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Again, I'm not suggesting editors deny Lefkowitz (although that would be proper in a just world). Im suggesting editors follow their own style guide.

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saying that if she was mostly Greek and only a quarter Egyptian per the hypothesis, then it left no room for her to have been possibly black African.

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Has this article been created only because of the Netflix show? Might be a bit early to create an entire article and fabricate a controversy ad post.

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Clarke didn't finish high school, and later in life bought a "degree" from an unaccredited diploma mill ("Pacific Western University", California).

2156: 1810: 3890:- I know this is months old, but I'm confused as to what the "controversy" began from the now apparently blocked IP OP user even is? They mention " 2455:

I just wanted to explain why I edited the page. The way Lefkowitz and Asante were juxtaposed in the article came across to me something like this:

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Also, Mary Lefkowitz seems like a generally reliable source for topics pertaining the ancient world and IDK why the OP seems against citing her.

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Clarke's most widely-held book in public libraries -- "African People in World History" -- has just 239 copies, and has been cited just 54 times.

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This genetics section has nothing to do with Cleopatra herself save for the line at the beginning. It has also been speculated by scholars like

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We should have an article on every pyramid and every nome in Ancient Egypt. I'm sure the rest of us can think of other articles we should have.

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a

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there seems to be a lot of speculation and very little hard evidence in this article, a section of genetics would help to fill that void.

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There is no real "controversy" & the current title sensationalizes the subject in an unhelpful way. I think it should be renamed to

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Egyptians who are "Black.") Is Cleopatra a topic you are actually interested and study or are you here because of the Netflix show?

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of Sudan) pretty much debunks this idea of yours that black people never existed in ancient Egypt. I think painted portraits of

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Anyone? I consider this probably the most unimportant of tasks on Knowledge (XXG), but if you believe it needs to be done . . .

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Lefkowitz earned her BA from Wellesley and her PhD from Harvard (Radcliffe) as well as having been selected for Phi Beta Kappa.

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I decided to petition for a lock to this article, considering the enormous amount of vandalism and bad faitg additions lately.

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So, why do you want to appropiate her? Try it with better people, at least. Maybe a Socrastes was black will be a better idea.

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Finally, I put it to you that the ancient Egypt race controversy is relevant on a page literally entitled " race controversy".

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and related articles on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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So there's really no metric you can cite to support the claim that "Clarke is much more prominent than Mary Lefkowitz".

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I think you've misread Daniel Nour - the "diversity" he's talking about is North African and Greek, not black African ("

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The audience (and obviously some editors) is preoccupied with race, when the people of antiquity had no concept of race

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since Cleopatra is an Egyptian queen of Greek ancestry, she is representative of the genetic diversity of modern Egypt

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At one point ‘purposes’ is written without ‘r.’ Just do a text search… I would have fixed it myself, but I can’t.

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retrieved at 23.01.2024). Basically, Clarke unambiguously denies making claims as to Cleopatra's ethnic origins.

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My interest is in science, particularly population genetics and evolution - I helped write the genetics parts of

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subjects on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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history on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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response to her work. If anyone else wants to read the article and characterize it better, that's cool too.

265:. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a 3894:", when this is actually noted in the background section of the article. There's a citation from professor 3700:"she described herself as Black in the New Testament" I do not remember any references to Cleopatra in the 2432: 2291: 3344: 3328: 3193: 2299: 2244: 1736: 1382: 1364: 24: 3898:

discussing how debating over an ancient figure being "Black" or "White" (or "Brown" or whatever term) is

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Lefkowitz as an authority, her video recorded debate with J. H. Clarke, and a "multiracial" Mediterranean

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