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our historical archives. For all the qualities that stood out about her – religion, domesticity, passivity and anti-political nature – it was also the strength of these qualities that enabled
Mandela to develop his career and educational aspirations. However, beyond her contribution to Mandela’s life, this was a woman who was strong in her own right in that she maintained a career and her household financially and emotionally whilst married and later as a single mother who was able to continue providing for her children – roles that Mandela was unable to fulfil sufficiently."
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2697:; thank you. I really appreciate your time in reading through this article and offering such a thorough review. I was actually planning on responding to your other comments in the next few days - I haven't had much time for Knowledge (XXG) over the past few weeks so haven't been able to respond to everything all in one go. Even though the article has been passed as a GA, I'm happy to keep responding to some of your queries, if you like? All the best,
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his house. She stated that she then took refuge with a neighbour before moving in with her brother. Mase's claims of assault would never be subjected to scrutiny in court; Smith later noted that it is "entirely possible that Evelyn imagined all those stories of assault, out of malice or revenge, but the fact she alluded to them outside the divorce papers and that the neighbours were involved, lends at least some credence to her account."
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Smith thought that Mase was hoping for reconciliation with her husband, while
Mandela wanted to avoid a public divorce hearing which would damage his standing in the ANC. Their children went back and forth between the two homes over the coming months. Mandela later acknowledged that their children were emotionally traumatised by the separation. Despite living apart, Mase continued to view her and Mandela as being a married couple.
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A hearing was arranged, but postponed. In the meantime, Mandela was given custody of his sons on the provision that Mase would have access to them. On 5 November 1956 Mase then withdrew her petition, offering no explanation why. It is probable that
Mandela and Mase had come to a personal arrangement.
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The
Sisulus were upset by this, with Walter trying to talk to Mandela about it; this angered him. According to his autobiography, in December 1956, the police arrested Mandela and imprisoned him for two weeks before he was allowed out on bail. Returning home, he found that Mase had left him and taken
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I would like to keep the Smith quote in some form, as it demonstrates that
Mandela biographers have not wholly endorsed Mandela's own claims. I have however cut down the length of this sentence, to make it sharper. I've also trimmed back the second sentence you highlight here, although have gone with
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I'd be happy to reword these sentences but I do think that they have a place in the article, because they have been given coverage in top-quality reliable sources. The information isn't just taken from more sensationalistic elements of the press. For readers of
Knowledge (XXG), I think that it also
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Paraphrasing and summarizing this would make for a lovely Legacy section: "It is a worthwhile consideration that the reason little or scant interest is taken in Mase’s life, is because her relations with Nelson
Mandela remains a blotch on his saint-like legacy. Her voice is almost non-existent for
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Instead, she claimed that
Mandela had deserted her in February 1955 and then physically assaulted her in July, August, and October of that year, and again in February 1956 after she refused to leave their house. She added that in March 1956 he had threatened to kill her with an axe unless she left
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Something from here: "In an interview just after the general election which saw Mr
Mandela elected as the country's first black president, she said she had not seen him since he had been released from prison, but she knew "the people love him very much". "When I go to their houses to talk to them
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Perhaps something like: "Mase and
Mandela separated, and Mandela had custody of their sons with visitation by Mase. Mase withdrew her petition for divorce, and although separated, considered herself married to Mandela." Smith thought that Mase was hoping for reconciliation with her husband, while
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Expand the boiling water threat with the reason for that, paraphrasing and summarizing: "In 1952, Evelyn spent several months in Durban training to become a midwife, while her husband's mother and sister took care of the children. Meredith reports that Evelyn returned to find Mandela's secretary
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Mandela also claimed that they argued over their respective attempts to promote their views to their children; Mandela encouraging them to embrace African nationalist opinions and Mase seeking to convert them into Jehovah's Witnesses. The biographer David James Smith later argued that Mandela's
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their children with her. At this point, Mandela stated, Mase temporarily moved in with her brother. Scrutinising this account of events, Smith noted that this chronology did not match that from other sources. Thus, Smith related that, as far as he could tell, "that scene never happened".
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If there is any way to make it clearer, if you know, whether her mother was the first or second wife, that would be good. I tried searching around and I couldn't find more information about her early days. One source also stated that little was known about her life before she met
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There are a lot of quotes, which would normally be a problem, but I like the ones that provide meaningful insight into Mase or Mase's relationship with Mandela. (i.e., it is best to keep the ones with punch and meaningful content and remove the ones that
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In his autobiography, Mandela claimed that he would often attend political meetings late at night and that this led Mase to accuse him of having an extra-marital affair. In the book, his use of language implied that her accusations were
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I like this article, it provides insight into Mandela's first marriage that is rarely talked about. You have a nice writing style that I like. I have provided some comments to tweak it and make the content a little crisper and clearer.
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She must have been one of the three survivors; do you think this needs to be made clearer in the text? As with the situation regarding the parents, unfortunately I have not come upon the third siblings; name in any Reliable Sources.
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These were just suggestions and are not necessary. I think some round out our interpretation of Mase, like the context of why she threatened to throw boiling water on one of Mandela's ladies. Perhaps you will think about them
1722:- "broadcast publicly" doesn't seem quite right - Sisulu was a good friend of the family, and broadcast publicly sounds like someone was speaking about it on the radio or tv. How about something like "shared with others".
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I've reworded this as the following: "However, some members of Mase's family believed that Winnie was preventing them from receiving financial support that Mandela had arranged for them." Do you think that works okay?
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In the intro, her names should include Evelyn Mandela and Evelyn Rakeepile, per "She remained a Mandela until 1998, when she married a fellow Jehovah's Witness and retired Sowetan businessman, Simon Rakeepile."
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Perhaps "In addition, he claimed that his children were presently looking dirty and neglected at Sam Mase's overcrowded home, where Evelyn and her children were cohabiting with Sam, his wife, and their four
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mean? Was Winnie supposed to give the money to Mase and she didn't? If it is not clear that Mandela did not support his children, this sentence is essentially gossip / extraneous and not of encyclopedic
2678:. I appreciate your thoughtfulness in receiving the feedback, and holding firm on some items that you felt did not improve the article. I think it looks great now and I will list as a GA article now.–
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All of this boils down to: "Mase had left him and taken their children with her. At this point, Mandela stated, Mase temporarily moved in with her brother." (I am assuming that this part is correct.)
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Someone has added a shock image to the page that goes up or down if you try to get away from it. I'd try to remove it myself but I can't find the code in the page. can somebody please remove it?
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Same thing here. It sounds better as "Mase did not contest the divorce", but perhaps you were concerned about using divorce too many times. Any thoughts that would be stronger than request?
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get reworded to ", where Evelyn and her children were cohabiting with Sam, his wife, and their four children. Mandela claimed that his children were presently looking dirty and neglected."
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has value in illustrating the sort of discord that existed within Mandela's family, in part caused by his actions. There's no clear reason, in my mind, in shielding readers from that.
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20/02/2021: someone placed a shock image on the article thumbnail (on iPad app);showing frontal nudity. It went away and returned to correct photo after opening the article.
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anyway. It's always possible we could create an article for Thembekile, but there is not much information about him out there and it might be considered too niche a topic.
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One year after her death, "Makgatho who had HIV/Aids, passed away on the 6 January 2005" and the "Makaziwe was the only child still alive from her marriage with Mandela"
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I am a little confused about her parents. Do you have their names? Did her parents get divorced while she was a little girl? Or, was she the daughter of the second wife?
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I haven't come across either of her parents' names in any of the Reliable Sources that I have seen. Perhaps additional research in future will reveal this information.
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Except for the few beginning and the one ending statement of the paragraph, the rest should be removed. This is extraneous detail that is not encyclopedic content.
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They were first cousins, right? Instead of saying that they were related, it would be clearer to say like "they were first cousins, as their mothers were sisters."?
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Some members of Mase's family blamed Winnie for breaking up Mandela's first marriage, although Mandela had already separated from Mase prior to meeting Winnie.
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about Jehovah, I always see his picture on the walls. His strength has come from God. "God uses people to do his work even if they are not righteous.", per
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I don't understand how the example ties back to her values. Can you provide a little more information about what she found objectionable about all films?
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is a bit awkward. How about something like: "Working as a nurse, she also trained to be a midwife" or "Working as a nurse, she took a midwifery course."
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To be honest, I'm not really sure on this one. I've recorded what the Reliable Sources say, but they don't give any particular clarity on this point.
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According to Mandela's autobiography, in 1955 Mase presented him with an ultimatum: either he gave up his political activism or she would leave him.
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installed in her home. Evelyn, a tough woman, threatened to throw boiling water over her and the woman left the house, but the affair continued."
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Later commenting on her conversion, Mandela wrote that "whether this was due to some dissatisfaction with her life at the time, I do not know".
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I really like this article and would be happy to help with edits if you'd like. If interested, just let me know what you'd like me to take on.–
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Perhaps add / paraphrase "She wanted the family to return to the Transkei, where Mandela could take his place in the local Xhosa aristocracy."
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Evelyn paid for their education at private schools in Swaziland, but due to the apartheid she was not able to travel with them to the schools.
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I've used your proposed wording as a basis, although added a few extra details in; such as the month during which Made withdrew her petition.
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2255:. “Without Evelyn’s encouragement and assurance that she would always be there to keep the home fires burning he would not have made it”
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being changed to something like "discord with Mase" that is a little more specific and uses the name used for Mase throughout the article?
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slightly different wording than that which you propose so that we don't have two consecutive sentences ending in "extra-marital affairs."
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There is a fair amount, though, of statements about what people think, which is not encyclopedic content. See the initial paragraph under
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presentation of their marital problems as deriving from a conflict between his politics and her religion was "not quite the whole story".
240:, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Knowledge (XXG)'s articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
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It was more than a request and is used again in a couple of sentences. Instead of request, how about filing, action, or something else?
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Both of your proposed alternatives are a clear improvements. I've gone with the former, although the latter would work just as well.
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How can the mother take care of the children, I thought she returned to Transkei. Did she come back when he was getting a divorce?–
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Was she one of the three surviving children? So, there was Sam, Evelyn, and another child? Do you know the name of the other child?
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I'm happy with a replacement for "request" but not sure what we could go with. I think "action" could work, so will go for this.
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Since it is extraneous detail that doesn't really add to his biography, the rest should be removed or perhaps put in a note.–
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Mase told Walter Sisulu about the affairs; this angered Mandela, who did not want news of his infidelity broadcast publicly.
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To keep the ultimatum in the same tense how about "he had to either give up his political activism or she would leave him."
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the second half of the sentence needs to be reworded. Perhaps reduced to "staying in the home of Fatima and Ismail Meer."
1036:. The article should be about the nature and milestones of her life, and not what others think and feel about her life.
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http://web.archive.org/web/20140314164334/http://sunnewsonline.com:80/new/cover/mandelas-women-evelyn-winnie-graca
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Mandela brought nighties and baby clothes to the hospital, and obtained a cot for when she brought "Thembi" home.
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Unfortunately I don't think the source specified exactly what it was about films which she found objectionable.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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Mase was a disciplinarian informed by her religious values; she for instance forbade them from watching films.
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Mandela visited her in Durban at least once; when in the city he stayed in the home of Fatima and Ismail Meer.
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Unfortunately not. There's a lot about Mase's early life that I don't think ay historians have delved into.
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I am looking forward to working on this article. I am surprised no one has elected to review it so far.–
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There, she befriended Walter's girlfriend Albertina, whom he had met in 1941 and whom marry in 1944.
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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1497:, too. But if you know if her mother is the second wife or not, that would be good to clarify.–
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These sentences do not add value to the article (are extraneous) and not of encyclopedic tone:
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it is cleaner and more grammatically correct to say "whom he met in 1941 and married in 1944."
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Mandela wanted to avoid a public divorce hearing which would damage his standing in the ANC.–
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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I don't see it. Maybe there is something wrong with your computer. Or something else.
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could be boiled down to "Mandela implied that he did not have extra-marital affairs."
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2715:. I will watch out for them. It was very much my pleasure to review this article.–
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I've changed this to simply "Mase did not contest this." Do you think that works?
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It is cleaner and simpler to say "She trained" rather than "She started training"
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Since you are not talking about other hospital workers, "also" is not needed in
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Thanks for your edits, the article looks good and I really enjoyed reading it,
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Similarly, "Mase would be a bridesmaid" is better as "Mase was a bridesmaid".
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Marriage second paragraph: Mase supported Mandela while he studied law, per
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You may want to consider adding / summarizing / paraphrasing some of these:
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Do you know where Evelyn lived until she joined her brother in Johannesburg?
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I realized after I added it that he lived a short life. Makes sense to me!–
977:. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
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In the book, his use of language implied that her accusations were untrue.
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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
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http://sunnewsonline.com/new/cover/mandelas-women-evelyn-winnie-graca/
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/16/young-mandela-david-smith
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This is just like saying Mandela seemed happy on his wedding day! --
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they were also related, with their respective mothers being sisters.
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It has been alleged she later had been assaulted by Nelson Mandela.
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Mase's children also expressed some bitterness to Mandela himself.
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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It could follow " as opposed to two miles from Sam Mase's house."
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The wording, which crosses two paragraphs could be tightened up.
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There are also some places where there is extraneous detail. See
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I am not seeing the value of the quote from David James Smith.
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She lived in Mzimhlophe in Soweto after she married Rakeepile
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I've gone with "influenced", which might be a better option.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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She initially filed for divorce, but withdrew this request.
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Working as a nurse, she also trained on a midwifery course.
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Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
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This information seems totally unnecessary and trivial -
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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Winnie was not passing any of it to Mase's offspring.
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Is there another word for informed, perhaps "guided"?
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1844:It should be removed, or perhaps put into a note.
1043:. The detail should be removed or put into notes.
1630:You're right. It's not adding much. It can go.
2048:Mase later revealed that she travelled there..
1902:This paragraph has a lot of extraneous detail
832:This message was posted before February 2018.
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1171:, feel free to remove them if you disagree.–
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640:Thanks. Looks much better now. --
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1403:Another good point. Changed.
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61:Today's featured article
2370:reasonably well written
1549:God Has Rested Her Soul
1030:WP:ENCYCLOPEDIC CONTENT
763:External links modified
2601:(appropriate use with
2360:for what they are not)
389:
170:This article is rated
2575:It is illustrated by
2535:neutral point of view
2502:broad in its coverage
1758:That works. Changed.
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388:
357:South Africa articles
237:WikiProject Biography
174:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
97:Articles for deletion
63:on February 20, 2021.
2086:Good idea. Changed.
2057:Agreed and removed.
1374:Agreed and changed.
1167:I added a few links
975:Talk:Evelyn Mase/GA1
844:regular verification
778:. If necessary, add
116:Good article nominee
2588:fair use rationales
1529:Agreed and changed
1032:and items #3 under
834:After February 2018
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2563:No edit wars, etc.
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1191:Thembekile Mandela
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2736:Categories
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2104:What does
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1849:children."
1776:Regarding
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1569:Changed.
1468:Removed.
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1315:Mandela.–
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983:Reviewer:
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894::Online
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2695:Carole
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2557:stable
2555:It is
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2500:It is
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2398:layout
2368:It is
2349:review
2195:Okay.–
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1696:Okay.–
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