972:- I'm not convinced by the google numbers cited above supporting that "dark tea" is the common name, because "dark" is a just a common English word that is often used in combination with "tea", but usually not referring to the topic of the article. "Fermented" suffers from a similar problem. Both titles are used to refer to the topic and neither is perfect, but since the article has to have one and only one title, I vote for "dark tea". Baidu baike suggests that dark tea and the subject of this article, what's called "后发酵茶" in Chinese, are one and the same. Colloquially it's called "黑茶" (pretty consistently translated as "dark tea") and when you need to emphasize the different oxidation levels the different tea categories undergo you can call it "后发酵茶" (often translated as "Post-fermented tea"). This is similar to the difference between terms like "fully oxidized/fermented tea" (全发酵茶）, and "black tea" (红茶), the two terms refer to the same topic. Baidu Baike isn't the word of god, my understanding of it could be wrong, and I'm not a wannabe expert on this topic, so correct me if I'm wrong in thinking that the category (post-)fermented tea includes all of the category dark tea and nothing else. I'd be in favor of merging into "dark tea" since I think it is closest to common English. Also if we aren't going to use the weird but common Chinese translation "post-fermented" tea, but simply "fermented tea" then I feel that we've got a title that is confusingly imprecise. I believe the shorter "fermented tea" is at least as often used to refer to black and oolong tea as well as the delicious and trendy kombucha. Do a google search and see what comes up that isn't this article. -
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is talking about pu-er tea. The great majority of search results are like this. As I mentioned above and as you mention, "dark tea" has the same problem, because dark and tea are common words commonly used together. The reality of the situation is that the only word which consistently refers to this topic more than other topics is "post-fermented tea", a name which no one here appears to like. I think its the most accurate, but "dark tea" is more colloquial. between "Dark tea" and "fermented tea" it appears obvious to me which is better, because the difference between "dark, tea-coloured urine" and the topic of this article is revealed in context. The difference between "fermented tea" referring to black tea and "fermented tea" referring to the teas mentioned in this article is far from obvious. Now that I see just how hard it is to find the topic by searching "dark tea", I'm starting to prefer "post-fermented tea". -
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1081:"pu'er" in your search, since that's the archetypical dark tea. You can find plenty of popular books with proper editors using any of the three terms. My impression is that there just isn't a common name for it. Makes me think we should consider other criteria, like simplicity and resolving ambiguity. Unless we can form a consensus about the name, it would be proper to merge it into "fermented tea" (my least favorite name), basically preserving status quo. That means I'm going to stop arguing about titles now. -
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process that produces alcoholic beverages or acidic dairy products (general use). 4. Any energy-releasing metabolic process that takes place only under anaerobic conditions (somewhat scientific). 5. Any metabolic process that releases energy from a sugar or other organic molecule, does not require oxygen or an electron transport system, and uses an organic molecule as the final electron acceptor (most scientific).
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isn't a reason to reject the evidence of those sources. It is only a reason to reject the automated tally of a Google ngram or trend. Knowledge (XXG)'s Common Names guideline means that a name may have to be used even if it is technically incorrect. It will really require someone to work through more than just the first 10 results on the Google books search.
1834:. This would appear to change the scope of the article, excluding the section on pickled tea. Separately, I would prefer not to rely on anecdotal data, but I wonder if naming depends upon the region in this case. I know what fermented tea is and know quite a bit about tea, but (embarrassingly?) I have never heard of "dark tea".
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is actually consistent with the "common definition" of fermentation used in industry, even if it does not actually fit the "most scientific" definition. We can then observe that enzymatic oxidation processes – such as the browning of black and oolong tea – do not properly fall with the scope of these
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That's probably the issue. I haven't been able to identify exactly what the sequence of events is that causes it. All I know is, when I see a talk page link that is useless, it's almost always the result of a pageswap move, and whenever I have approached the mover to suggest however gently that the
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I recommend you take a closer look at the google book search you cite. Of the ten results that pop up all only one of them appears to refer to the topic of this article. All of them use "fermented tea" to refer to tea having undergone oxidation, contrasting with green tea. One of them in the middle
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So that's pretty weak, right? so let's forget about ambiguity for a moment and see if one of these other names is the common name for this topic. Since counting google hits is pretty much useless, it's pretty subjective. A good way to get more hits which actually refer to the topic are to include
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If you read my statement above, I did note that "fermented tea" referred to red tea in some of the articles. I have nothing against "post-fermented tea" for dark tea, though I would need to see evidence that that was the common name even if technically correct. Ambiguity in the name among sources
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13) So, no matter how wrong it might be, the customary use of “fermented tea” for black tea is well-established, accepted in scientific articles, and even adopted in international normative texts. Any claim for an alternative use of the term must deal and compromise with this undeniable fact.
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Below are some definitions of fermentation. They range from informal, general usages to more scientific definitions. 1. Preservation methods for food via microorganisms (general use). 2. Any large-scale microbial process occurring with or without air (common definition used in industry). 3. Any
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Oh, I guess by "red tea" you meant "black tea" then? I misunderstood. Naming guidelines also encourage avoiding ambiguity, and "post-fermented" is the only name that isn't at all ambiguous. It's not clear to me what the common name in
English is for this topic and figuring it out isn't an exact
1248:黑茶 is one of the six basic categories of tea of the classification system devised in China in the 1970s and thereafter adopted as a standard. This system groups the different varieties of tea according to some specific shared key steps in the curing processes and names them with color terms:
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2) The system uses color labels consistently and works well in
Chinese (notwithstanding the congenital incoherency of its basic principles: it uses colours terms – which refer to a defined visual character – to name processes that do not necessarily and univocally lead to defined colours).
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link should have been fixed, the response has always been in so many words "I followed the procedures, so there's nothing wrong, go do your homework". So basically I have given up and now just quietly fix them. But that's a lot more work coming in after the fact.
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comes up allot. Often it is used just to describe tea with a dark colour or tea-bushes with a dark colour rather than a variety of tea. One instance I found was refering to a medical condition which causes, "strong dark tea coloured urine." By contrast, a
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Yes, at the very least all these pages should at least link to eachother. It's pretty weird when you want to search for kombucha, but you only remember it's a type of "fermented tea", and the top search result doesn't even mention kombucha.
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3) The color labels of the
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moves from these considerations: it meets the need to avoid the ambiguity between the microbial browning carried out after the fixation in processing of this category of tea – which properly deserve the "common definition" of
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also indicates a slight preference for that term in print. In addition, the term "fermentation" is sometimes conflated with "oxidation" in the tea industry, so "dark tea" would appear to be a more common and precise title.
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currently link to the same articles in other languages, and there isn't really enough information in either article to stand on its own, so a merge seems wise, even if the two terms aren't identical in meaning.
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The least intrusive way for a page mover or admin to do that is to do a round-robin page move so that the redirect and the article switch places. After that, the redirect can be retargeted to the article. With
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Given the above information, I would like to highlight some problems with the use of "Fermented tea” in tea classification, many of which were actually already touched upon by some other users in 2014:
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11) Besides this, this costumery and “unscientific" use of fermentation is also found in scholarly articles about tea processing published in international scientific journals (here some examples):
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project banner to food and drink related articles and content to help bring them to the attention of members. For a complete list of banners for WikiProject Food and drink and its child projects,
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itself: Huang, Hsing Tsung 2000. "Tea
Processing and Use." In Science and Civilization in China. Vol. 6: Biology and Biological Technology. Pt. 5: Fermentations and Food Science, pp. 503–570)
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I'm okay with either merge direction. If nobody else voices in with this, perhaps you can go ahead with the processing of merging fermented tea (formerly post-fermented tea) with dark tea. --
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which is explicitly excluded from the scope of this article. However it looks like we need to preserve the edit history of the target for copyleft purposes... not sure how best to do that.
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7) Besides this, we should also observe that the term "dark tea" appears in academic articles recently published in various international scientific journals (here are a few examples):
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GB/T 30766-2014 (茶叶分类 Classification of tea, issued on June 9th 2014) has formally adopted the following
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Is there anything further than just making sure the redirect on the talk page gets fixed if there was one beforehand? I haven't seen any issues personally past that.
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12) Last but not least, we also ought to reckon the prescribed use of "fermented tea" to refer to black tea in international trade terminology: the
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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is used in a very large number of cases when talking about a wide veriety of subjects completely unrelated to fermented tea. Here is my
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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One title has a scope problem, and the suggested title also has an apparent scope problem. It is unclear which is better.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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921:- the articles state that pu-erh is a variety of dark tea, which in turn is a category of fermented tea. That said, both
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related articles on
Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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related articles on
Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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returned a list that was consistently on target though occasionally referring to red tea as fermented tea. The articles
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1491:- I propose to rename the page “Dark tea" and insert "Post-fermented tea" as a "redirect here” page (or the contrary).
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1411:發酵) is historically and presently used in tea industry to describe the enzymatic oxidation of black and oolong tea.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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Yes, that's one way... but people who do this usually leave the talk pages in a mess, in my experience.
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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https://web.archive.org/web/20140812210629/http://www.city.saijo.ehime.jp/english/kankou/omiyage1.htm
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science, but here's what I've found to support the idea that post-fermented tea is the common name:
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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10) However, it is well known that the term “fermentation” (as well as its
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I hereby propose to reopen the discussion, taking into consideration the following points:
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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dark tea, from Anhua County, Yiyang, Hunan province, be mentioned in this article?
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do seem to be about the same thing under different names and so should be merged.
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9) According to the above passage, we can see that the microbial ripening of
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The current page is the merging of two pages, resulting in the choice of
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1485:- I reckon that “dark tea” or "post-fermented tea" are to be preferred.
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Tortora, Gerard J.; Funke, Berdell R.; Case, Christine L. (2010). "5".
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8) As reported in the dedicated
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http://www.teanet.com.cn/z_interbusiness/interm/heicha.htm
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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also has a lot of overlap that may actually belong in
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are very poor measures for this subject. The phrase,
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in Chinese sources and most likely the invention of
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This article talk page was automatically added with
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1363:are produced).
1228:
1226:Rename proposal
1213:
1208:
1176:
1169:have permission
1159:
1123:this simple FaQ
1108:
1103:
1102:
891:be merged into
887:I propose that
884:
875:
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873:
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839:Merger proposal
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1034:Metal lunchbox
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858:Metal.lunchbox
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770:Mid-importance
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1654:Fermented tea
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1630:
1624:
1618:
1617:no consensus.
1611:
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1497:
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1481:
1476:
1475:To conclude:
1473:
1471:
1470:houfajiao cha
1467:
1463:
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1338:
1335:
1333:黄茶 Yellow tea
1332:
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936:Google Ngrams
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810:Category:Food
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123:Verifiability
121:
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65:Learn to edit
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38:Fermented tea
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1390:Fermentation
1387:
1383:
1365:
1360:
1356:
1354:
1348:
1342:
1339:白茶 White tea
1336:
1330:
1327:红茶 Black tea
1324:
1321:绿茶 Green tea
1318:
1309:
1304:
1300:
1298:
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1289:
1285:
1281:
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1179:source check
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723:China portal
648:
627:
591:
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583:
582:Bring these
565:
561:
557:
556:Bring these
540:Ham and eggs
513:
509:
505:
501:
490:
489:
467:
417:
371:
327:
321:Drink portal
265:WikiProjects
248:
222:no consensus
221:
184:
178:
170:
163:
157:
151:
145:
135:
107:
32:This is the
1842:pickled tea
1832:Weak oppose
1608:move review
1351:黑茶 Dark tea
1044:Rincewind42
1015:Rincewind42
663:transcluded
647:. List any
632:select here
600:Burger King
161:free images
44:not a forum
1903:Categories
1881:Shouldn't
1675:Relisting.
1546:References
1436:coding of
1216:Report bug
1799:contribs)
1714:black tea
1512:Black tea
1508:Goishicha
1453:houfajiao
1343:Wulongcha
1301:wulongcha
1199:this tool
1192:this tool
901:Pu-er tea
617:WP:Trivia
544:Soy sauce
512:status:
289:Beverages
253:is rated
101:if needed
84:Be polite
34:talk page
1877:dark tea
1846:dark tea
1836:Dekimasu
1789:Skarmory
1659:Dark tea
1500:Kombucha
1496:Dark tea
1331:Huangcha
1258:Huangcha
1205:Cheers.—
1007:Dark tea
990:dark tea
986:Ibadibam
941:Ibadibam
927:dark tea
897:Dark tea
889:Dark tea
863:dark tea
850:Dark tea
626:Add the
594:status:
568:status:
419:inactive
214:Dark tea
69:get help
42:This is
40:article.
1850:Andrewa
1811:Andrewa
1794:(talk •
1781:Andrewa
1766:Andrewa
1722:Andrewa
1706:Support
1325:Hongcha
1305:qingcha
1294:hongcha
1290:hongcha
1286:hongcha
1266:Qingcha
1254:Hongcha
1119:my edit
955:Sjschen
905:Sjschen
794:Tagging
772:on the
449:history
374:on the
255:C-class
167:WP refs
155:scholar
1664:Laozha
1516:Laozha
1504:Lahpet
1480:heicha
1466:heicha
1462:fajiao
1457:heicha
1442:090240
1409:fajiao
1401:heicha
1361:heicha
1357:heicha
1349:Heicha
1337:Baicha
1282:heicha
1270:Heicha
1262:Baicha
1246:Heicha
1236:Heicha
845:MERGED
552:Yogurt
261:scale.
139:Google
1883:Anhua
1875:Anhua
1746:mello
1685:mello
1634:mello
1532:Qvasi
1514:. --
1319:Lücha
1264:白茶 ,
1250:Lücha
970:Merge
745:China
736:China
692:China
596:Apple
578:Sugar
548:Sushi
532:Drink
528:Curry
524:Bread
459:purge
454:watch
338:drink
242:This
210:moved
182:JSTOR
143:books
97:Seek
1891:talk
1854:talk
1815:talk
1770:talk
1726:talk
1718:Here
1668:talk
1572:ISBN
1536:talk
1520:talk
1272:黑茶.
1268:青茶,
1260:黄茶,
1256:红茶,
1252:绿茶,
1048:talk
1019:talk
1009:and
959:talk
945:talk
925:and
909:talk
866:and
830:talk
818:here
619:and
604:Fish
570:Beer
536:Food
520:Beef
469:here
444:edit
336:and
334:food
220:was
175:FENS
149:news
86:and
1751:hi!
1690:hi!
1639:hi!
1568:135
1307:青茶
1244:1)
1173:RfC
1143:to
1133:to
856:by
824:--
812:or
764:Mid
366:Mid
212:to
189:TWL
1905::
1893:)
1856:)
1817:)
1772:)
1758:)
1756:投稿
1743:,
1728:)
1708:.
1697:)
1695:投稿
1682:,
1678:—
1672:—
1656:→
1646:)
1644:投稿
1631:,
1627:—
1600:.
1570:.
1538:)
1522:)
1506:,
1502:,
1498:,
1426:,
1422:,
1418:,
1378:,
1374:,
1370:,
1186:.
1181:}}
1177:{{
1050:)
1021:)
961:)
947:)
911:)
832:)
806:}}
800:{{
602:,
598:,
592:FA
588:GA
576:,
572:,
566:FA
562:GA
550:,
546:,
542:,
538:,
534:,
530:,
526:,
522:,
510:GA
496::
393:/
287::
169:)
67:;
1889:(
1852:(
1813:(
1783::
1779:@
1768:(
1754:(
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1194:.
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1017:(
957:(
943:(
907:(
872:)
828:(
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634:.
612:.
506:B
422:.
378:.
267::
224:.
185:·
179:·
171:·
164:·
158:·
152:·
146:·
141:(
71:.
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