Talk:Fifth-generation fighter

1100: 1159: 2225: 760: 739: 461: 849: 828: 1331:. Only now do you decide to revert it. The Aviation/Aircraft WikiProject consensus is that aircraft costs are not generally comparable, as they have no common baseline and they change over time. This was decided in the context of civil airliners, but applies equally here. Your nine years' misguided effort were deleted for a reason. If you want them back, the burden is on you to verify the significance of such a comparison here, by citing reliable sources as to its significance. 1149: 1128: 1080: 859: 2213: 1240: 991: 960: 1435: 710: 694: 276: 1558: 563: 366: 2159: 214: 2249: 678: 300: 1001: 2237: 245: 635: 624: 613: 602: 438: 427: 416: 405: 310: 521: 489: 2282: 1456:

it, see if anybody objects/reverts, and if they do then seek a more solid consensus on this talk page. I don't know if it is possible to make wikitables sortable on rows rather than columns, but if so then that would be helpful. (By the way, you misinterpret the list guideline in various ways, but those do not matter right now). — Cheers,

591: 394: 2463:"Turkish Fighter-KAAN , the 5+ Generation Multirole Fighter Aircraft, provides significant capabilities in both Air to Surface and Air to Air combat requirements. Turkish Aerospace’s survivable, strong and agile platform Turkish Fighter is a fully aware warrior, with intelligent and strong combat capabilities." 2558:

etc. Almost 80 percent of the fleet of the defence forces is either supplied by HAL or serviced and supported by HAL. In all, the company has manufactured over 4,100 aircraft and over 5,000 engines while overhauling 11,000 aircraft and 33,000 engines across its 20 production divisions and 11 research

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I have redacted the personal attack from that editor. I've also removed more nationalist attacks from the anon IP. Y'all need to stop making this page an ethnic/religious/nationalist background immediately, that is not a request. If you cannot be civil, you will be blocked from editing. Consider this

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Hey, you probably new on this page. The Comparison Tables (specification ) were maintained on this page for 9 years (2014-2023). I've been editing this page for about 10 years. People put a lot of work in to it. Someone recently deleted tables without consensus or discussion. So I just restored them.

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Turkey will not get preferential treatment. Turkey will be added in 2030-2033, if and when these machines enter service, exactly as was done for the US, China and Russia. Moreover, you will not push your unsourced POV agenda unilaterally. If you want to do that, create your own encyclopedia website

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There is a more immediate reason for its removal. While the bias is perhaps debatable, the fact that this is an overview articles means that we should not go too deep into the background of each individual project. Such claims, biased or unbiased, are not really about the plane as an example of the

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My thoughts. This list is effectively the specifications for the various types pulled together in a single table. Although this is not practicable for more populous classes of aircraft, it is here. There are surely readers who will find it useful and informative. My best suggestion would be, go for

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Consensus should be used to deviate from the default. This article used to have an infobox. 4th generation article also has an infobox. I'm going to revert this edit. Please discuss below and reach consensus before acting on your own again. I personally think that this article looks more organized

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Surely we should only include production vehicles, KAAN while it may be good has flown once with engines not intended for service. If that is enough then things like the X-2 Shinshin would also count? Better to have it consistent, and add KAAN to a "prototype not yet in service" sort of list with

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hopefully you are starting to see why that infobox should be removed. From your own argument, the fields are not adapted to the information you want to show. And of course, the field names won't change (since the infobox is used in thousand of individual aircraft articles). If people are obsessed

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I like it. I have been doing the same thing too long and need a good prod with a sharp stick now and then. My only criticism would be that policy/guidelines still require citations where other editors demand them, because it saves the inconvenience of clicking through to another article. Here, I

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I'm neither in favour of retaining that infobox nor removing it. What I stated was the illogic of adding more than one country in the "National origin" parameter. I still hold my view that a product can not originate in different countries in different timelines. If someone wants to have their

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Infobox is okay, but adding more than one country in 'National Origin' is illogical. How can a product have 'origin' in different countries in different timelines? If a country's name is adding there, it should be the US. It was the first country to come up with a fifth generation fighter. The

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Turkey's fifth-generation fighter will be delivered between 2030 and 2033, as per the Turkish Ministry of Defense. All the other countries which actually do have such fighters were added to the infobox after the delivery and entry into service of fully operational aircraft. A prototype with a

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Also, I propose that specifications in this table to be derived solely from the respective Knowledge page for each fighter jet, but not from external sources. Therefore no citations required in this table since they suppose to be present in an original Knowledge article. There is a note for

1389:- this means that the guideline does not list every possible situation that it applies to. There may be other relevant factors or considerations that are not explicitly mentioned in the guideline. There could be circumstances where it is appropriate to deviate from the guideline. 1728:. If you fail to behave with respect, sanctions may be taken against your user account. If you wish to make a substantive edit to this article, I would strongly suggest that you make only a small edit at a time, and be prepared to discuss it sensibly if it gets reverted; see 1109: 974: 701: 503: 1400:. The suggested data is not applicable in this case. The Aviation guideline document is misinterpreted leading to this misguided effort: They all fighter jets, what's the point for these redundant columns! We replaced unique data with the redundant data! 2372:

There was no newd to change the nationa part until Turkey has produced one. And suddenly, some guys thought that it is no longer necessary. This is a blatant example of nationalisticly motivated banal vandalism. Removing it won’t change anything.

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That's right. This is the wrong infobox for the job. It has too many unsuitable fields being filled in because people can, and for no other reason. It should go. What any proposed replacement might include is a quite different issue. — Cheers,

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Also, it has become a battleground for PoV nationalism. FWIW the default is to use an infobox only where it is designed to go, and that is not here. There is also 2 to 1 majority here for its removal. It has to go. — Cheers,

164: 1786:) has been blocked from editing for 72 hours for personal attacks. I was very clear about the warning above. Do not turn this article or talk page into your personal battleground for whatever culture war you're fighting. 2943:

I propose to set up talk page archiving for this page - before this post it had 74 sections, which is a lot. I propose archiving at 1 year, but with a rule that at least 9 sections remain on the talk page. Does anyone

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While all the nations that currently produce gen 5 aircraft are listed, they arent the only ones that use these types of aircraft, as many are sent to other countries. A list of these countries would be helpful. Thanks

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Infobox type is intended for aircraft of a particular design, it is not intended for whole classes of aircraft. Please do not restore it here without a clear consensus that this abnormal use is justified. — Cheers,

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As things stand, the infobox includes only countries that have one or more operational fifth-gen fighters in service. Turkey's fighter, like India, Sweden and Japan, is only at the development / prototype stage.

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Please discuss the dispute here rather than continuing to edit war. I've not studied the topic closely – why are we not including Turkey if there's a section on them (which appears to be adequately sourced)? —

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That said, I know the 4-table presentation can be improved, by transposing columns/rows and combining 4 tables into 1, making it more compact. I could work with you on that if you interested. Good weekend!

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The documents is NOT about 'standards'. The word 'standard' is not mentioned there even once. It is a guide/guideline document, and specifically it is a style guide. Standards vs. Guidelines differences:

1338:, but which your table omits. This information should be included by default, unless we establish a local consensus here that this table is an exception. I do not see that it is a special case. — Cheers, 1524:

Thank for your feedback. Per your suggestion, I brought back the citations and we can add more. Also I added the Citation row to make it less cluttered: I guess it's trade off to avoid clutter. - Best,

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think that adding the cite after the given factoid in the cell is the best way forward; I agree that a Notes column or row would be inappropriate. I'd go for it, and see how it gets received. — Cheers,

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Other sources have used labels such as 4++. We have to wait for enough reliable sources to treat it as an accepted class, so that we can too. One public soundbite does not make the grade. — Cheers,

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There is no horizontal row sorting. We loose sorting, but sorting is not that useful for only 7 jets. The trade in advantage is that the table is much more compact and there is no redundant labels.

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If we count Hurjet and FA-50, look India have designed Tejas, HJT-36, HTT-40 (flying), AMCA, TEDBF, Tejas MK2 (underdevelopment). So how can a policy expert come such conclusion? So this source

1382:- the guide is mainly about style and markup used to render the style. The data is given as an example for a particular case of different aircraft types. We only cover one type in this article. 2778:

If the consensus (and again, this isn't my normal area of editing) is to only include them in the infobox when operational, and if it is not yet operational, then this seems open-and-shut. —

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The idea is the same as on F-22 page: all citations grouped in one place to avoid redundancy and clutter. But, I am not too certain about this as. well. We can move citations back to cells.

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It's even worse. The United States is not a manufacturer, Lockheed Martin is. This is obviously the problem of trying to fit a circle in a square shape, it simply doesn't work. So again,

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In military aviation in the case of emergency, they can use prototypes in active operations. We should add Japan and Korea too they build fifth-generation fighters as Turkiye did.

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TAI has definite arguements to get in serial production. TAI general manager Temel Kotil said "We will start the production of 20 KAANs in 2025. We will deliver it in 2028."

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This is not the intended use of the infobox, if an infobox is needed, then a different one should used, There are hundreds of infoboxes so maybe a generic one among them.

906: 205: 1396:- so this guideline document is not applicable to this page at all, since this page is NOT about different aircraft 'types'. This page is about one single specific type: 576: 533: 2589: 2572:"Currently, Airbus’ procurement of components and services from India stands at about $ 750 million every year, which will rise to $ 1.5 billion in the next few years" 1539:

You're welcome. I think it looks pretty good. I am not sure about the citation row, it's a but unusual. Be interesting to see if it stands the test of time. — Cheers,

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Japan and things like the FC-31. It feels like Turkey is being added to this list purely for nationalist means rather than for useful dissemination of information.

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Do you understand how military aviation works? Do you have knowledge of the fifth-generation fighters to say that? Is this topic your area of expertise?

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I think we don't have that many "minus" fighters to justify the whole new category. But we can add a sentence or two to the article. Thanks for asking.

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Guidelines: provide recommendations, voluntary for execution, general & broad, offer general framework with room for interpretation, not enforced.

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Standards: provide rules, mandatory for execution, they are specific & detailed, with measurable criteria, enforced by contracts and regulations.

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That's exactly what I mean. A company website for a product, not a reputable independent source for a class of aircraft. Not acceptable, see

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observes that "Feasibility of the AMCA project, however, has been questioned as India does not have a robust industrial defence base."

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What design expertise did S.Korea have? Turkey have? Yet they came up with flying prototypes, right? Isn't that argument sound flawed?

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about having an infobox here, they are welcome to create a new one, but using one that is not designed for the task makes no sense. --

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According to Rahul - " it (India) lacks the depth of research and design expertise required to build a successful stealth fighter. "

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Boeing plans to double sourcing from India from the current value of $ 1 billion a year to $ 2 billion from over 200 suppliers,

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It is the prototype stage. And Turkiye will produce more prototypes next year so stop changing the list. It is ridiculous.

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.

class but about other aspects of it; if they belong anywhere, is is in the article on the plane and not here. — Cheers,

1783: 1032: 1014: 965: 256: 2926: 2796: 2489: 2069: 2055: 2005: 1289: 1172: 1133: 76: 2657:, it is just marketing puff by some companies. As such it has no place in a general article like this one. — Cheers, 136: 2690: 1732:

for more about how this works. Learn the Knowledge way, and we can build a better encyclopedia together. — Cheers,

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related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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and write whatever you want in it. But here we adhere to the rules, we use sources and we stick to the consensus.

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that you are starting to see why using an infobox for something it wasn't designed for is not a very good idea. --

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on the part of your fellow editors, and not to make accusations either on talk pages or in edit comments, as

2966: 2922: 2904: 2792: 2743: 2485: 2190: 2165: 2083: 2065: 2051: 2037: 2001: 1489: 1356:, we can remove costs as long as costs are removed from the respective pages for each jet. I think they are. 532:. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a 120: 2720: 2622: 2466: 2445: 759: 738: 2864: 2837: 2810: 1720:, and not some crazy cagefight between nationalists. I would advise you to respect Knowledge's policy to 2903:

13-minute flight is not fully operational. In 2030, when Turkey actually produces such equipment, user @

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Your content is removed due to the following reasons. 1. Why is it biased and deliberately misleading?

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according to Darren Hulst, vice-president and global head of marketing, Boeing Commercial Airplanes.

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are producing fuselage to wings for lwading Aviation manufacturers like Boeing defence, Airbus etc.

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Also, the standard layout for general information includes data commonly asked for and included per

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Except that it is not possible. That infobox is a template used in more than 12 thousand articles (

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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country name listed, please modify the parameter appropriately rather than confusing the reader.

2033: 1773: 1274: 229: 81: 17: 848: 827: 1911:"but using one that is not designed for the task makes no sense" - that's exactly what I said. 2618: 2294: 1601:

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/why-5th-generation-‘minus’-fighters-are-future-179708

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could you explain why you want to keep that infobox that is clearly ill-suited for the task?

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I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Knowledge is an encyclopedia built on

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This guideline is not intended for anything other than tabulated lists of aircraft types.

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Is that even a thing? Not aware of any such radar especially on an airborne platform.

Not just delete that section, change the infobox but keep the current structure =: -->

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where they have no rational case to make. Time to escalate to a wider forum? (BTW

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So it's pretty much clear both of thesetheir observations are flawed, definitely

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No, it's not. Is it in active operation? Do you have sources supporting this? —

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imho national origin could be changed to 'developed by' or 'current developers'

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It should still use countries though as it would be easier to see in one place.

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a blanket warning to *all* editors of this article and associated talk page.

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Of course it would not be an image. It would be coded using Knowledge markup.

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In addition, TASL delivered 250th made-in-India AH-64 Apache fuselages,

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KAAN will start serial production in 2025 General Manager of TAI says:

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Collapsing this section due to more nationalism and personal attacks.

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https://www.tusas.com/en/products/aircraft/indigenous-development/tf

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Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the

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Removal of National Origin section due to Turkophobia and Vandalism

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How is this possible if India doesn't have robust industrial base?

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I reformatted the 4 table into 1 by transposing the columns/rows.

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There is no such thing as a 5+ generation fighter described in

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Include list of countries that operate Generation 5 aircraft?

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Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force articles

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Military science, technology, and theory task force articles

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is building aircraft since decades. Prominent examples are

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In addition, Indian private sector aviation firms such as

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C-Class Russian, Soviet and CIS military history articles

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C-Class military science, technology, and theory articles

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https://twitter.com/gdhdefence/status/1760981019610735020

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Technology and engineering in Russia task force articles

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the Russian, Soviet, and CIS military history task force

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If it's a prototype it's not actively in operation. —

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C-Class Russia (technology and engineering) articles

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This article has been checked against the following

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This article has been checked against the following

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the technology and engineering in Russia task force

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Military science, technology, and theory task force

659: 573: 376: 2459:KAAN is a 5+ gen fighter" TAI official sources say 1596:Do want to add the 5th generation minus category? 3119:C-Class China-related articles of Mid-importance 3059:C-Class United States articles of Mid-importance 2675:Read the official site. And see with your eyes. 1874:concept of fifth generation 'origin'ated there. 44:for general discussion of the article's subject. 2150:Semi-protected edit request on 24 February 2024 2105:, you forgot to sign that last one). — Cheers, 1283:This page has archives. Sections older than 185: 8: 1387:This guideline is not exhaustive or absolute 1831:and comprehensible with the little infobox. 2335: 1327:The costs were removed almost a year ago, 1122: 954: 822: 733: 656: 570: 483: 373: 270: 2264:) | introduction = | introduced = 2005 ( 526:This article is within the scope of the 321:This article is within the scope of the 2614:but biased and intentionally misleading 2390:2603:7000:DA03:3626:E167:21B8:9B0F:77F9 2338: 1124: 956: 824: 735: 485: 272: 242: 3079:Mid-importance C-Class Russia articles 1293:when more than 9 sections are present. 546:Knowledge:WikiProject Military history 536:. To use this banner, please see the 339:. 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Set the 2064:I changed it can you check 1574:18:00, 3 January 2024 (UTC) 1549:17:03, 3 January 2024 (UTC) 1535:04:15, 3 January 2024 (UTC) 1190:Knowledge:WikiProject China 1048:Template:WikiProject Russia 61:New to Knowledge? 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