Talk:Flag of Tibet - Knowledge (XXG)

1382:

Indigenous Peoples has been occasionally cited in connection with the Tibet Question189 and one emigre activist has proposed that Tibetans "take the indigenous route."190 However, emigre leaders see that label as conflicting with their insistence that Tibet is an occupied state since, in popular conception, indigenous people were mainly stateless before the advent of the colonizers.191 They may also be influenced by the social evolutionism still pervasive in India and China. One emigre scholar has said about most of China's ethnic minorities that "such pre-literate tribes cannot be compared with Tibetan people" and that "s far as the Tibetans are concerned, they are neither a tribe nor an ethnic group; they constitute a distinct civilizational category . . . ."192 Because claims to indigenous status are eschewed,193 the concept of ethnocide and a delinking from intentionality are not relevant to Tibetan emigre discourse, which from the outset has been framed in terms of genocide194 and, latterly, cultural genocide.

434:"The Tibetan national flag is intimately connected with the authentic history and royal lineages of Tibet which are thousands of years old. Furthermore, in the Tibetan Royal year 820 or in the seventh century of the Christian era, at the time of the Tibetan religious King Song-Tsen Gamp the Great extensive land of Tibet was divided into large and small districts known as "gö-kyi tong-de" and "yung-g'i mi-de". From these large and small districts, an army of 2,860,000 men was chosen and stationed along the borders of Tibet, and the subjects thus lived in safety. The bravery and heroism of the Tibetan people at that time in conquering and ruling even the adjacent empire of China is well-known in world history. 437:"At that time, it is recorded that the regiment of Yö-ru tö had a military flag with a pair of snow-lions facing each other; that Yä-ru mä had a snow-lion with a bright upper border; that of Tsang Rulag, had a snow-lion standing upright, springing towards the sky; and the flag of ü-ru tö had a white flame against a red background, and so forth. In this way. the regiments of each area had its own individual military standard. Continuing with that tradition up to the beginning of the twentieth century, various regiments within the Tibetan army have had military flags with either a pair of snow-lions facing each other, or a snow-lion springing upwards and so forth. 440:"In the latter part of this period, during the rule of His Holiness the Great Thirteenth Dalai Lama, this eminent spiritual and temporal ruler of Tibet enacted many modifications in administrative policies in accordance with international customs. Based on the formats of previous Tibetan military flags, His Holiness improved upon them and designed the present, modern national flag. With an official proclamation, He declared that this would be the uniform, standard flag to be adopted by all Tibetan military defence establishments. Since the time of that proclamation, all Tibetan regiments have likewise adopted this flag as their standard. 2600:

of Tibet"; we established before that this was not used in the reliable sources). There are many flags used in Tibet, past and present (including the 1920–1925 one shown on the page), and this article only refers to one. You could probably concede "Tibetan flag" on the caption and the Wangye conversation, as it would only be a accommodating a POV shift, but to change both the "members of the public" sentence and the CTA adoption sentence really bends over backwards to defy logic, so they should stay as they are.

2840:, captioned "Ancient lion standard – courtesy of Tenzin.G.Tethong and AMI". The text on that page (an historical piece about Tibetan independence) includes "According to an eminent vexillologist, Professor Pierre Lux-Worm, the national flag of Tibet was based on an older 7th century snow lion standard of the Tibetan Emperor, Songtsen Gampo. " but does not say "as shown above" or anything similar. There are no footnotes on that web-page but the piece appears on several other sites including 240: 2162:

because the formatting was unclear, and not because of neglect. For example, you assert that "in this real world context", Tibetans "exist as an indigenous people". Yet I have documented what is already common knowledge to longtime observers of the Tibetan independence movement; that the designation of "indigenous people", which has different connotations and legal meanings than simply being native to an area, is not generally sought by or applied to the Tibetans.

222: 398: 250: 326: 305: 191: 2185:. And from the moment of the flag's inception, the flag's status was disputed; even the Dalai Lama, as one of my changes showed, considered it to be an army flag. It has been called a "Tibetan flag", reasonably so because it is used by ethnic Tibetan emigrants, but "Flag of Tibet" implies that it is or was an official state flag, which it is not and was not. I do not want to call it 2044:

nation), nor is it a dependent territory or a micronation. Therefore, the flag is included in a section titled "stateless" which includes three groups and appears to be a placeholder for ill-defined entities. If there is consensus that the "stateless" subcategory be included in the template, and that is what seems less than obvious to me, then the inclusion of the template is fine.

2520: 1643:(remove your attack, and I will remove this response). Opposing independence does not make one an apologist, and this is *often* the problem with those independence advocates such as you: don't deny or lie about it—you state it on your user page. And no offence to Quigley, but I am the one who far less on politics and history. Look at our contributions for proof. -- 2040:, it is credible that the flag can be represented as that of the indigenous tibetan people. Including that particular category merely states that the flag is acknowledged as representing the indigenous people of Tibet and says nothing about whether or not they, as in the case of Berbers, should or should not live in an independent nation. 2256:

Erasing theocracy. Prof. Lux-Wurm: "The two lions (in white, with green manes and tails) symbolize the twin system of the temporal and spiritual rule or, in other words, harmony between religious and earthly government." TGIE: "On the slopes of the mountain a pair of snow lions stand proudly, blazing

2065:

The use of "allegedly" in describing the flag in the lead is unwarranted. The symbolism section (removed by quigley) clearly indicated that the description was from the government in exile website and unless a credible rival interpretation is available I would eschew the use of words that cast doubt.

1826:

I'm willing to provide a third opinion on this issue but must admit that, after reading the text above, and after examining the diffs in question, I'm unclear as to what exactly the bone of contention is. If the two of you, Kintetsubuffalo and Quigley, could summarize your positions below, that would

1765:

through a funny userbox of yours. You have shaky, even non-existent, evidence for your claims of us being apologists; in fact, I have not expressed any opinion regarding the flag, so stop conjuring up flagrant bullshit — you are not Dumbledore. Stop trying to draw attention away from your own conduct

1638:

Kintetsu. Immediately withdraw your attack(s) ("apologist" and "certainly not HXL"). I had no intent on re-writing this article to begin with, and came here only as an observer, yet you think I would try to rewrite it? funny. And I ask you not only to apologise to me, but to Quigley as well. You know

1350:

Removing the category "Flags of Indigenous peoples". First of all, it has not been established that this is a flag of the Tibetan people. Isn't the claim that it was a flag of an unrecognized state, not an ethnic flag? The other wrong thing is that Tibetans are not an indigenous people. China doesn't

2268:

It is well-known that the Dalai Lama and the TGIE are extremely savvy at tailoring the Tibetan independence movement to a Western vocabulary, using non-native concepts such as "self-determination" and "human rights". I would wager that the first two sources are more closer to the truth of the flag's

1554:

surprise when I found that unlike the section title of the page (generally subject to broad website policies and editors), the actual text sourced to actual people do not use "Flag of Tibet", but "Tibetan Flag", or interestingly, "Tibetan flag", lowercase. As for the flag's use as a "national" flag,

1178:

I don't see any suggestion above to use multiple edits, and they're not necessary. If you're only objecting to one or two things, such as the order in which the various names for the flag appear, then take two seconds and do it manually instead of repeatedly provocatively doing wholesale unexplained

1013:

You have that backwards-you have brought nothing new to the discussion. Lay out your points here, one by one, they can be added or passed as needed. I don't care whether you "perceive" ownership on any article-you're not adding POV here. In fact this has been a controversial article, we're not going

852:

government buildings. It is today claimed as a national flag by exiled tibetans, is used by the CTA. But the flag has no official status inside Tibet at the moment. Thus the wording 'Flag of Tibet' is somewhat misleading. It could be called 'flag of the CTA', 'Tibetan army flag 1912-1959', etc., but

443:"The colour scheme of the Tibetan national flag gives a clear indication of all aspects of Tibet in its symbolism such as the geographic features of the religious. snowy land of Tibet, the customs and traditions of Tibetan society, the political administration of the Tibetan government and so forth. 2940:

We still have no evidence that this is the first published reference to the flag discussed in this article. We still have no evidence that it's even a reference to that flag; indeed, it's described as yellow with a sun and moon in the corner. I've pulled that claim and integrated the remaining text

2599:

flag of Tibet (Tibet-under-illegal-occupation, the implication is), regardless of the fact that it has no official basis there. You are right in that the blanket changes result in illogical and anachronistic constructions. However, Snow Lion Flag and Tibetan flag are not equivalent (nevermind "Flag

2490:

yourself) downright pointless and distracting. Wording such as "Few Tibetans knew about the Tibetan flag" is utterly idiosyncratic. You have not provided a reason for your changes, and "more well-known as..." is not a reason because we have made it clear, at the very beginning of this article, that

2076:

Restructuring the "under the peoples republic" section into a "history" section is a good idea. The current version is clumsy. However, the "Decline" section introduced by quigley seems dubious. The text itself implies the opposite, that the flag has blossomed in use since the tibetan government in

2035:

It is important to understand that wikipedia articles do not exist in a vacuum but rather that they exist in a context that is provided to us by the real world. In this real world context, the Tibetan people exist as an indigenous people and they are assumed to subscribe to the goals of the Tibetan

1549:

About the use of the word "allegedly" to describe modern interpretations of the symbolism, it's completely fair to use "allegedly" when we don't have any descriptive documents from the government (which is not the same as the CTA) that supposedly instituted the flag, and when as the FOTW page says,

994:

Again you revert my edits, Kintetsubuffalo, bringing no new rationale, but strengthening and making more inflammatory language such as that you "suspect POV". That's not enough. I ask you again for specific sentences, phrases, etc. which you think are POV in my edit, and in which way you think they

2726:

I don't see the problem with having "Snow Lion Flag" as the main form used in this article. "Tibetan flag" might be acceptable as an alternative to avoid repetitiveness, but I think "flag of Tibet" pushes a POV because it implies some kind of official status. That would also mean that the title of

2229:

Inventing a tradition of tolerance to non-Buddhists . Prof. Lux-Wurm: "The yellow border is not a mere ornamentation. It indicates the spread of the golden ideals of Buddhism. But, as I was told, the fact that it only covers three sides of the flag is due to a practical observation: the fly of the

2072:

I think it is ok to say that it is used to advance the tibetan independence movement. That seems fairly obvious. Though I suggest removing 'used by some' because I assume it is generally true that no activist uses any other flag. 'Used by some' would imply the existence of multiple competing flags

2043:

The inclusion of the template "Flags of Modern States and Territories" is a gray area that I think needs further discussion, preferably on the talk page of the template. Tibet is not currently a sovereign state, nor is it partially recognized (no government recognizes Tibet as being an independent

1531:

userbox on your userpage) I actually said that to put the modern separatists' preferred name in front of the historical name is to non-neutrally ground the article in the perspective of a Free Tibet activist. Civility requires that you suppress your suspicions of bad intentions by other people, so

975:

I don't see what's wrong with Quigley's edits, except that I think both versions of the article over-emphasize the Japanese connection by putting it in the lede. Ideally, I'd like to have a better source for that fact, although I don't advocate removing it because I have no more specific objection

2642:

Don't take what I said as an endorsement of the IP's actions; if you didn't revert the changes, I would have (but much later; I am a slow editor). Disengaging from edit wars is always good for your stress levels, but please don't do it on account of disagreements with me: I'm not Li Hongzhi after

2292:

There are some useful new suggestions in this opinion, such as to pursue the removal of the "stateless nations" gallery from the flag template, which I will, but this article's indirect inclusion on that template does not mean that this article needs to include that template. More pictures of the

2171:

The string of contentious political opinions continues with the agency-stripping assertion that "Tibetan people... are assumed to subscribe to the goals of the Tibetan government in exile". That's the kind of language that the TGIE loves, but such a statement has no legitimacy. There are over 5.4

1983:

This article should not have the category "Flags of indigenous people", because it is not and was not a flag of a people, but of a movement, and in the past, a military . Even if it were a flag of the Tibetan people, which it is not, Tibetans are not considered by China, by themselves, or by most

1782:

are the one who is trolling around, and not giving serious attention to every dispute that you are in, instead caring more about vandals who can be dealt with by other users and ClueBot. Because of your poor job at defending your positions, you have a poor likelihood of winning this dispute; your

851:

I'm not sure in what sense I'm a revisionist. The rationale for my proposal; This flag was the army flag 1912-1950s, not the national flag. The Tibetan government were quite explicit on this issue, in negotations with the PRC during the 1950s. The flag was used at army functions, but not flown at

810:

Maybe. But the "coat of arms" originated with the "government in exile" and does not have the same status as the flag. Flag, but not coat of arms, existed prior to the association of Tibet with the People's Republic of China, and was designed by the Thirteenth Dalai Lama in 1913, before there was

2282:

The Patrick French quote comes from p. 230, "A protester had gone there and managed to pull down the Chinese flag from one of the tall flagpoles in the square, and had started to raise the Tibetan flag in its place—the illegal flag with the snow lions and stripes, promoted by the exiles but now

1381:

Although Western opinion leaders sometimes refer to Tibetans as "indigenous people,"187 the emigre administration does not use the term, and international law scholars sympathetic to the emigre cause find it uncertain that Tibetans come under its rubric.188 The Draft Declaration on the Rights of

1042:

but never addressed by you, the Snow Lion flag was not the only flag in Tibetan history, was an army flag rather than a national flag when used in Tibet, and not a legitimate flag of contemporary Tibet as the name "Flag of Tibet" implies. Therefore, if the article is to be written with a neutral

2161:

I am concerned by how the third opinion begins as an opinion about the Tibetan independence movement, because the key dispute about this flag relates to how it was used in history. Also, many portions of the opinion do not consider or even acknowledge my arguments—I hope this oversight happened

1896:

Thanks everyone for stating your positions. I'm going to use the diff between the current protected version and Quigley's most recent version as the best indicator of what the two alternative texts are but this is a complicated situation so please bear with me as I figure things out. Thanks, in

2047:

The flag of tibet is largely about the political aspirations of a people, and about the recognition of those political aspirations by non-Tibetans, and therefore the inclusion of multiple pictures representing that activism is certainly warranted. I note that the current version of the article

2054:

While it is fine to make it clear that this flag is the 'snow lion flag', it is fairly unambiguously accepted as the 'flag of tibet' and there is no reason to qualify that statement in the first sentence. The genesis of the flag, as well as the fact that it is the 'snow lion' flag is clearly

2200:

The word "allegedly", which might have a negative connotation, can be replaced with "According to the Tibetan Government in Exile", but it should not go unqualified, because this TGIE, which was created in 1960, is speaking about a flag that they themselves did not create, and which has no

1481:. Now that you've laid it out, and it's past the new year bustle, it's appropriate and timely for me to address what works and what doesn't. I've reverted it again, as unilaterally replacing earlier text because your comments received no reply is no good during the busiest time of the year. 2396: 1972:

The text about the symbolism of the Snow Lion Flag is a copyright violation from savetibet.org. It should be summarized and not copied, with the summary marked as folklore and not definitive, because it does not come from any official law that defines the symbolism as laws do with other

2569:"Snow Lion" with "Tibet" when this article has already clearly established that the two are equivalent. Conversely, others may argue that my reverting was equally pointless, but one should note that many of the replacements are wordier and, as I put it, "idiosyncratic". Thanks much -- 2341:

until 1937, the website says 1911, in addition, the grammer on the website is horrific, an example here- "together with his brother Ma Buqing, and has the power until 1950 when it fell to Saudi Arabia because of the communist advance." (would anyone mind explaining how the province

2402: 1156:

Maybe this is the controversial change to you, seeing as you called someone a "revisionist" for proposing it before. If this was the only change of mine you had objected to, you should have done a selective revert rather than a full revert, or at least mentioned this objection by

2427: 952:

I have restored the changes, because you have not explicated your objections, or if you even had any, a week after the changes (and this is not a very active page; other editors have not commented). If you have some refinements to make, you can make them or discuss them here.

1555:

the only example mentioned on that page was a dubious one of the military flag's one-time hasty conversion for use in the Asian Relations Conference, a gathering not of states but of various independence movements. An alternative lead in could be, "While there have been many

1968:

The sources say that "Tibetan flag", and not "Flag of Tibet" should be used. Further, because "Flag of Tibet" and "Tibetan flag" are ambiguous, (as there have been many flags in Tibetan history) the first sentence should make clear that we are talking about "Snow Lion Flag"

2925:

will you provide sources for either (a) the claim that Teichmann's description is the first published or (b) the claim that he's describing the same flag that is the subject of the article and not one of the earlier flags or banners shown in the article's illustrations?

2859:

I don't have access to Flag Bulletin - does anyone else? Without it, can we be confident that the original image is a picture of a 7th century object or a even a later version of it? That is, can we assume the text refers to that image when it does not do so explicitly?

1272:

context. Keeping that in mind, there should also not be so many pictures as to overshadow the text, of which there is very little. You can find hundreds of novel uses of many other flags, but they should not inserted into the flags' articles without a compelling reason.

1979:

This article should not have a template that places it in a series of flags of modern states and territories, because this is not a flag of a modern state or territory (or even a historical state, as it was a military flag, although there is room for debate on this

1927:

I am not taking a position in this article about Tibet sovereignty or autonomy, neither do I think Tibet should be discarded and swept aside. Quigley uses attack words like "allegedly" and "by some" which serve only to denigrate and cast doubt on the users of that

1267:

That the "Tibet street" flag demonstrates the flag's use "in context" is questionable. Hsiao Bi-khim's picture (being that she is at a Free Tibet gala) is more representative than close-up of a street sign that happens to have the flag on it, incidentally without

1201:

from savetibet.org. Suspending disbelief in savetibet.org's credibility in explaining the symbolism of the flag, there is no indication on that website that the text is licensed under the public domain. Therefore I have summarized it and placed it in a picture

2172:

million Tibetans; the TGIE's own (probably inflated) numbers only indicate less than 130,000 Tibetans living outside of Tibet. How could a selection from this small and self-selected population represent, as you assert, "the political aspirations of a people"?

2283:

adopted inside Tibet as the mark of nationhood and protest—when he was spotted by a traffic cop." Additionally, the part of that sentence that said that the flag was "previously obscure in Tibet" was also supported by at least two previous references.

1513:. Lo and behold, no mention of the name "snow lion flag", the page is titled "Flag of Tibet", just as this one is. Imagine my surprise! It does go on to say that yes, it began as a military flag and later evolved for national use out of necessity.-- 1532:

you are well advised not to continue to sing your dislike and distrust of me, and start talking about the content of my edit rather than the content of my character. And between your last two edits here, on 28 December and 14 January, you made

1613:

none of us here are vandals. Secondly, this involves potential quality work, much more than mere vandalism reversion. Certainly you would want more quality work on your record? It shows your lack of caring, and if you claim a position, it is

2594:

The point is to push the POV that (1) the Snow Lion Flag was a state flag, and not a military flag; (2) the Snow Lion Flag has some legitimate historical basis rather than being a CTA invention, and that ultimately (3) the Snow Lion Flag is

1660:

More disturbing to me than the fact that he called each of us "apologists" is that he called us "Chinese". Just recently, an editor who did essentially the same thing on another topic—attacking users' neutrality on account of their race

484:

I recall reading the gold border represents the spread of Buddha's teachings and was left open to represent Tibet's (Buddhism's ?) openness to other ideologies. Though, I don't recall the exact pamphlet in which I saw that description.

2757:

Discuss/work it out here please. There was a substantial amount of disruption going on so I have protected the page fully for 3 days. Please discuss the differences, get dispute resolution if you need it, but just resolve the issue.

896:

I head that the snow lion flag was granted by Chinese Emperor Qianlong of the Qing dynasty as Tibetan army flag, the 2 lions symbolize Chinese central government, just as those stone lions in front of traditional Chinese houses.

2048:

contains only two example pictures and assume that many more were included in an earlier version. Many more pictures of that activism is definitely not out of place because activism is an important aspect of this particular flag.

1028:

Don't continue to menace me about "adding POV" when you refuse to explain what "POV" it is you are objecting to. I'll try to bring back some of my extended reasoning for the changes, which may have been lost in the two months of

1882:, and is constantly stalling when confronted with logical arguments, giving no justifications for his own positions, instead, resorting to personal attacks against the other editors, accusing them of being xxx without any proof. 2106:

delay. Thank you for providing this full opinion. The major issue that I have with it is that Flags of the World has already been decisively written off as an unreliable source in general. If I have time I may read the rest.

1351:

use the term, and exile Tibetans and their laywers don't either, for the category's uncertain boundaries and the difficulties it would create with some of their legal arguments. Basically, the category is original research.

537:"It is banned in the People's Republic of China, including the Tibet Autonomous Region and the other regions which formerly constituted the independent Tibetan state." -- Please fix if there's anything incorrect here. -- 1738:

Greg-you're right about the lack of ethnic meaning, but my comment is no more uncivil than "Kintetsu, stop being such a pain with your ridiculous advocacy of Tibetan independence," and accusations of lying being bandied

1721:

Incidentally, when I read "Chinese apologists", I didn't think it meant "apologists who are Chinese" but "apologists for China" or "apologists for the Chinese". It's still uncivil, but I didn't think it was an ethnic

1043:

historical perspective, and not with that of a Free Tibet activist, the name Snow Lion Flag should come first, and "Flag of Tibet" (which does not appear in any of the sources used in this article, by the way) second.

2902:

in accord with Knowledge (XXG)'s requirements. Also, Teichmann appears to be describing a known earlier flag but not the same flag, so it's not clear why you say Teichmann describes "the" flag. Why insist on that?

153: 1116:

Okay, the record shows your edit summary as the attack "Kintetsu, stop being such a pain with your ridiculous advocacy of Tibetan independence," and tagging my userpage won't change that. Who's lying, here?--

409:; however the article does not have that version of its name in the article's lead paragraph. Anyone who is knowledgeable enough with the original language is invited to assist in adding the Tibetan script. 1618:

to defend it, which you have done a poor job of doing. Since Quigley is doing well on his own, I am merely here to watch what the hell is going on; other regions of China and other topics concern me more.

1247:

Removing the Kaohsiung picture. The article is short enough, and one picture is adequate for pop culture. Of the two pictures, Hsiao Bi-khim's was the best because we can display it in the context of her

376: 2682:

And I don't see how you cannot read what Quigley said. It is like the ROC. Commonly (falsely) known as Taiwan today, but it was the real ruler of the mainland for 37 years before Chiang was defeated. --

2077:

exile was formed so I'm not sure why the section is title decline (decline of what?). BTW, I looked through the referenced text by Patrick French and was unable to find support for the statement that

270:, a collaborative effort to improve Knowledge (XXG)'s coverage of heraldry and vexillology. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a 2243:

Erasing ethnocentrism. Lux-Wurm: "The white triangle at the bottom is a snowy mountain and represents the geographical location of Tibet in the heart of the Asiatic continent." TGIE: (no mention)

2439:

Also this totally made up, non existent claim was posted on the FTOW entry- "The last sultanate that I know of is Kweichow - that seems that has a white flag. The sultanate also was born from a

2367:. Go look at the references on the article. In fact, i'll post them right here, which say Ma Hung-kwei (old romanization for Ma Hongkui) fled to formosa, and then to San Francisco in the USA. 1477:

Your tone is just as it is in the article, which is why I reverted it all in the first place. Lay off the snide. We don't have to like each other to talk to each other, but we do have to be

2776:

I will copy parts of the conversation I had with Quigley onto this talk page. But firstly, as a (presumably) outside viewer, is it not your responsibility to revert to the reversion before

2337:

fled to turkey (in reality, he fled to taiwan, then the united states, he had zero connections with turkey). And ma bufang never proclaimed himself sultan. And the Qinghai was not ruled by

999:, or at least incivility. I can't read your mind, so you must be clear and discuss with what you want, content-wise, and be willing to accept other editors' contributions to this article. 1462:

And there they are. Pleasantly surprise me by finally explaining what changes you would like made to this list, or if you just wanted to see them all laid out like this, allow them pass.

1799:

This is something I just noticed... I see you as the person who casually slaps on an insult without any evidence or just because he disagrees...look at your post "revisionist" up there.

1753:

I think that your comment has a strong likelihood of having an ethnic meaning, and if others accuse you of having that meaning, then you are GG-ed. This is compared to my attack, which

2269:

symbolism and the TGIE's interpretation a revisionist interpretation to pander to the ideals of Western patrons. Now that we have at least one other source that describes the flag, we

2230:

flag is left free because, when waving, the cloth gets rid of dust or snow." TGIE: "Furthermore, the side without a yellow border represents Tibet's openness to non-Buddhist thought."

2643:

all; I'm fallible! It is the philosophy of many editors to preemptively revert and to ask editors to justify their changes on the talk page in advance; it is just not my philosophy.

271: 2972: 2967: 2079:

Through the diaspora's and international protesters' use of the flag, the Snow Lion flag that was previously obscure in Tibet became known and used in protest by the Tibetan public

1941:

I cannot separate the editors from the edits, if the editors are forcing a POV. POV is POV, and there is clearly an agenda at work. It is not an attack to say so, it is what it is.

2191:

Tibetan flag, because as some of the text I have added has shown, Tibetans have used the Chushi Gangdruk flag to protest, and even today wave the PRC's own flag during protests.

1595:

Quigley-if you look at the bulk of my edits, they're reverting vandalism. You are many things but I would not call you a vandal, so addressing you here takes lower priority.--

470:"the surrounding border of yellow adorning the perimeter represents the spread and flourishing in all directions and times of the purified gold like teachings of the Buddha." 473:

The picture must be wrong, because yellow border is not present in one of the sides. That would mean the "spread and flourishing" don't really happen in all directions. :)

1668: 2139:

Kintetsubuffalo was using the title of the Flags of the world page to support the claim that this flag is referred to as the "Flag of Tibet", as opposed to "Tibetan flag".

1949:

be locked to further edits until agreement is reached, and agreement is not to be assumed by lack of discussion-I'm busy and cannot cater to pedantry in a timely manner

266: 227: 147: 2992: 2844:

which does have the footnote "18. Lux-Wurm, Pierre C. “The Story of the Flag of Tibet.” Flag Bulletin: Vol. XII – No. 1. Spring 1973." The modern image was created by

2675:

I don't see how it did not occur to you to click on the "discussion" on that page. And so what...the article is called that? Quigley, I, and many other users have the

1487:

I think at this point we are at an impasse. I do not trust you to be impartial, and you likewise want to label me a Free Tibet activist. It is better to bring in the

1253:

There's no limit to the number of photos that can be in an article, and if the photo illustrates the use of the flag in context, it is not disruptive to leave it.--

2434:

Yakub Beg was born in Kokand and was send to East Turkestan by Kokand Khan acompanying to burzurg Khan kodja in 1865 and with conquered the last Chinese positions

2037: 923:

I have undone the massive and undiscussed changes by Quigley. This is a controversial topic, bring the changes you want to make here for discussion. Baby steps.--

2372: 1686:

In addition, the position Kintetsu staked out below is mostly commenting on behaviour, not so much content. Is it because he has little to say on content and is

79: 1356:

Again, cite your source. We're not concerned with what China does, we're concerned with what Tibetans do, and my knowledge of them shows quite the opposite.--

2051:

The content of the 'symbolism' section is likely a copyright violation. I suggest reducing it to less than a quarter of its current length and rewriting it.

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retain a symbolism section that draws from all sources, rather than quoting and promoting the TGIE's interpretation as the sole and correct interpretation.

1787:, will make you go down. Plus, even those who are intensely critical of the PRC government, such as Greg, don't "see what is wrong with Quigley's edits". 2374: 2081:. Also, the publication date of that book is 2003, not 2009. May I suggest inclusion of specific page numbers rather than the use of generic references? 2123:

Flags of the world is not used as a source in the article but rather was included as an external link. Were it used as a source, I'd agree with you. --

2293:

flag in activism, now that I think more about it, would be useful to accompany text about the flag's use today, for which we would have to write more.

2214:

variations on the descriptions of the symbolism, if you will compare the text on the TGIE's website with Pierre C. Lux-Wurm's earlier description in

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There are hundreds of pictures that we could use of people using the flag for political activism, but only one representative picture is necessary.

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This article has been hijacked by two Chinese apologists to say exactly the opposite of what it said previously, and to look like an attack piece.

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Put the sources here first-don't bury them in the text-I think the fact that you are slinging "Free Tibet activist" around shows your own bias.--

2486:@Some IP: Considering that in the vast majority of cases, "Snow Lion Flag" and "Tibetan flag" are equivalent, your changes were (no offence to 1528: 2814:

so how can it be a national/government flag? rather if he establish that the CTA is an NGO entity, shouldn't it be call an organisation flag?

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are that, and then we have a basis for a discussion. Otherwise, continued guarding of this revision will continue to feed into perceptions of

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You seriously need to avoid the word "allegedly", it drips with POV. I take it English is not your first language, but that is a loaded word.

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was proclaimed sultan of ningxia in 1912. since reliable sources on the Ma Hongbin article note he was a suboordinate commader in his uncle

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an example of plainly ridiculous claims, if not outright lies and outrageous grammar and spelling is found on the FTOW's page on the

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Flags of the World contains numerous factual, grammatical, and other errors, and some of the things in there are just plain wrong.

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with the manes of fearlessness, which represent the country's victorious accomplishment of a unified spiritual and secular life. "

2302:

I presume that the changes not mentioned, such as documenting the flag's use in the Asian Relations Conference, are fine as-is.

1550:

the folklore surrounding the flag in Tibetan settlements in India vary in every telling. And speaking of the FOTW page, imagine

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The flag was used by the Tibetan government before 1950. While used by the government-in-exile, the flag is clearly an icon of

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captioned "7th century snow lion standard of the Tibetan Emperor, Songtsen Gampo" is a modern rendition of an image found on

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if you just type in "ma hongbin", numerous sources will say he was a provincial governor and general, and say nothing about

1766:

and onto other users who have admitted to wrongdoing. You are treading dangerously on the record of ActuallyRationalThinker.

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nothing of my true position on Tibet, and yet you claim to. I know that the following will consist of soaping, but it is in

1080:

HXL49-you're the one making the attacks in your edit summaries, and I would be delighted to report you. Please keep going.--

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This flag is not "unambiguously accepted as the 'flag of tibet'". First of all, the only flag that flies over Tibet is the

2069:

The use of "known to some as the Tibetan flag" seems dubious as well. It seems fairly clear that this is the Tibetan flag.

1938:, but if the article is to be rewritten, it must be done by an impartial third party-not me or Quigley, certainly not HXL. 1384: 135: 2333:

is not a reliable source since it is self published, and in addition to that, it is full of misinformation claiming that

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

583:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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edit warring occurred? I didn't challenge that rationale once Kintetsu, who I am on ill terms with, cited it, so... --

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to cite a source if you want to claim that this flag is used in an official capacity by some country; otherwise it is

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Removing the national flags template. The Snow Lion flag is not a flag flown in an official national capacity by

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You don't have to equivocate; the copyvio text is there in the article history, and remains in a 1:1 copy on

908: 508: 1536:, and not all of them trivial, so forgive me if I'm a little skeptical that you were too busy to reply here. 1295:, now or in the past. The removal of the Flags of Asia template falls under the same rationale, which as an 709: 628: 608: 900: 500: 2395:

indicate he was a military officer, never a "sultan", of a "sultanate", which never existed in real life.

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Kintetsubuffalo should not maintain that we are at an "impasse" when he simply won't answer my arguments.

1505:

Just to confirm my suspicion that this article would be hijacked were you given free rein, I checked the

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This is a sensitive subject. Soman, before you make swweping changes like that, discuss them here first.

538: 55: 2728: 2618:, I will not re-revert, as, I said above, I do not know as much as I would like to on this subject... -- 2129: 2091: 1903: 1833: 1723: 1226: 977: 798: 765: 664: 565: 341:

on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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Rewriting that section briefly and leave the text that makes the source clear is the way to go on this.

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should highlight how grave a breach of civility that this racially charged type of comment represents.

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Or conversely, you can use multiple edits which can be kept or undone, as was already stated above.--

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This is not a controversial topic. What specific objections do you have to the changes that I made?

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the CTA). And, if we had this web site prior to 1950 (somehow), there would be no doubt about it. -

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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

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In short, Kintetsubuffalo does not have any sources to back up his claims, he reverted to using a

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I am basing this opinion on the statements provided above and on the content that was removed in

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insistence on using the FOTW site, which has even been debunked at a large discussion as being

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In addition, his entries at the rulers . org website note that he moved to america, not turkey

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which was used by the Tibetan army from 1912–1959 and since 1960 by the separatist movement".

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Nonsense. Your bad attitude again. First off, that is a sneaky, not to mention dumb, attack;

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government in exile, including the choice of flag Since that government is a member of the

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Kintetsubuffalo should not continually revert my changes without discussing his objections.

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i feel references to earlier tibet flags should be added. this article feels incomplete.

657: 2418:, "first months of 1878 chine completed the conquest", should be, "first months of 1878 856:(the name of the flag) covers all these descriptions, and is the most accurate title. -- 2946: 2931: 2908: 2865: 1559:

s used throughout Tibetan history, the term "Tibetan flag" today usually refers to the

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reverts that force me to initiate another round of glacial dialogue to make any edit.

635:. I think a more neutral title would be "Flag of the Government of Tibet in Exile". - 623:

It is not of neutral point of view to use the term "Tibet" to refer to either the the

546:

The TAR corresponds to the area of control of the government at Lhasa before 1950. --

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This is perhaps one of the last things you wanted to hear after that nasty dispute,

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First of all, I never called you a Free Tibet activist; (although you do display a

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I'm agin it. For the same reasons. This is the (one and only) flag of Tibet (not

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is the claim that Teichmann's description is "the first published reference" a

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this whole sentence from the entry is just atrocious in spelling and grammar- "

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No, in your case commenting on behavior is the most appropriate thing to do.--

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Thank you for the patience during the delay in writing this third opinion. --

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that are used by independence activists which does not appear to be the case.

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is it just me, or does this flag look like the Japanese Imperial Army flag?

2806:

if the "exile government" does not exist, how can it be the flag of tibet?

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wouldn't be good enough unless it had been published and qualified as a

1690:

that fact? Kintetsu, it would behoove you to comment more on content. --

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personally i think it looks like two ligers high-fiving, POWERFULLY. -

403:

This article is about a topic whose name is originally rendered in the

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and discuss the contents of the edit, and not his suspicions about me.

1952:

be rewritten by a neutral third party and agreed upon before unlocking

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sect was really into directing muslim revolts, especially in alleged

496: 1134:. I take things literally, so in this case you would be the liar. -- 1850:

website, used by User:Kintetsubuffalo to justify his position, was

681:. Should we still have the same name for the proposed page move? -- 2467:(kweichow is an old romanization of guizhou), which never existed. 1509:

website, considered to be authoritative and a reliable source, at

646: 338: 2392: 2378: 2218:, via Flags of the World . The changes are extremely interesting. 1305:

links to the current flags for current countries and territories.

742:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.

577:

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal.

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Kintetsu, please re-render your unwarranted personal attack. --

495:

The Tibet flag proportions are 3:4 and not 2:3. Reference FOTW

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to make substantive changes on something I know little about

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article, i have sources which explicitly say he fled to the

1931:

I will not accept a revision such as Quigley keeps forcing,

2565:, but it is what it is. I don't think there is a point in 2391:'s army, how he got promoted to sultan? His entry at the 976:

than a gut feeling that Berzin is not entirely reliable.—

518:

The proportions on the website of Tibet goverment is 2:3

2482:

Recent massive replacement of "Snow Lion" with "Tibetan"

2102:

Since the deadline was pushed back to 1 February, there

1667:)—was blocked for his race-baiting. The comments in the 656:). Meanwhile, please be reminded to log this request at 2849: 2657:

I don't see what the problem is. The article is called

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entries for "ma hongbin sultan" come up on google books

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certainly must be locked down while this 3O is ongoing

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Tu Wen Hsiu, according to proper chinse romanization

1879:

volunteer-run Yahoo mailing list on flag information

1039: 337:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 280:

Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology

2422:completed the conquest", "Tu Wen Hsiao", should be 1581:

As 3O has not yet been addressed, reverted again.--

1491:

boys-let an uninvolved third party sort this out.--

174: 1391:— Barry Sautman, "Cultural Genocide" and Tibet, 811:ever a PRC, let alone a government in exile. Tom 33:for general discussion of the article's subject. 1442:tags where needed. This is an aesthetic change. 821:Your source for the lack of arms before exile? 2038:Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization 2973:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology articles 2968:Start-Class heraldry and vexillology articles 2559:in which I was there only to troll Kintetsu, 2062:was removed, its inclusion seems appropriate. 283:Template:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology 8: 1860:Knowledge (XXG):Reliable sources/Noticeboard 420:Knowledge (XXG):Naming conventions (Tibetan) 2320:Flags of the World is NOT a reliable source 1098:? lying does amount to a personal attack -- 797:There should likewise be an article on the 430:Flag of Tibet - another view of its origins 188: 2812:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0XlgfSgIeI 2661:. So the flag would be the Tibetan Flag.-- 2614:In light of this, if you disagree with me 2518: 2060:http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/xt.html 2055:presented at the end of the first section. 1511:http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/xt.html 693:I'm against the move as per Instantnood. — 299: 216: 2567:massively, without explanation, replacing 2414:, like Taso Tsung Tang, which should be 670:(modified 18:36, 20 February 2006 (UTC)) 2525:Text and/or other creative content from 2993:Articles needing Tibetan script or text 2679:to change the article title. You don't. 1897:advance, for your patience. Regards. -- 1293:the government or citizens of a country 301: 218: 1757:ethnic meaning; my attack is based on 1211:, okay. Copyvios have no place here.-- 7: 677:page has been moved by Adam Carr to 331:This article is within the scope of 267:Heraldry and vexillology WikiProject 2058:I'm not sure why the external link 1778:And apparently, it is evident that 755:Related to the move request is the 207:It is of interest to the following 23:for discussing improvements to the 1984:outsiders as an indigenous people. 1393:Texas Journal of International Law 14: 1529:"this user supports a free Tibet" 1197:"Symbolism" section: was a total 561:Well.. more or less, not 100%. — 351:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Tibet 286:heraldry and vexillology articles 50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome! 2810:according to the dalai lama... 396: 324: 303: 248: 238: 220: 189: 45:Click here to start a new topic. 2443:revolt directed by the sect of 2383:On the FTOW website, it claims 832:undiscussed move by revisionist 658:Knowledge (XXG):requested moves 371:This article has been rated as 2983:High-importance Tibet articles 1944:In summary, the article should 1669:discussion reviewing his block 1094:where is evidence of that on ' 913:19:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC) 679:Central Tibetan Administration 480:13:01, 15 September 2005 (UTC) 1: 2511:04:38, 28 February 2011 (UTC) 1472:04:02, 28 December 2010 (UTC) 1024:02:04, 28 December 2010 (UTC) 769:17:29, 28 February 2006 (UTC) 736:00:21, 21 February 2006 (UTC) 715:11:18, 20 February 2006 (UTC) 686:05:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC) 668:04:44, 20 February 2006 (UTC) 640:02:38, 20 February 2006 (UTC) 614:10:50, 27 February 2006 (UTC) 588:The result of the debate was 569:18:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC) 556:04:58, 17 February 2006 (UTC) 345:and see a list of open tasks. 42:Put new text under old text. 2870:16:52, 6 February 2014 (UTC) 2477:05:29, 15 January 2011 (UTC) 2312:18:16, 27 January 2011 (UTC) 2149:18:16, 27 January 2011 (UTC) 2135:15:41, 27 January 2011 (UTC) 2119:23:36, 26 January 2011 (UTC) 2097:23:28, 26 January 2011 (UTC) 2015:20:53, 16 January 2011 (UTC) 1909:15:54, 19 January 2011 (UTC) 1892:04:34, 19 January 2011 (UTC) 1872:01:22, 18 January 2011 (UTC) 1839:16:30, 16 January 2011 (UTC) 1817:16:26, 23 January 2011 (UTC) 1749:11:39, 23 January 2011 (UTC) 1732:05:51, 20 January 2011 (UTC) 1717:11:39, 23 January 2011 (UTC) 1702:04:25, 19 January 2011 (UTC) 1681:04:18, 19 January 2011 (UTC) 1655:02:40, 19 January 2011 (UTC) 1631:16:35, 23 January 2011 (UTC) 1605:11:09, 16 January 2011 (UTC) 1591:11:02, 16 January 2011 (UTC) 1573:01:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC) 1523:13:27, 14 January 2011 (UTC) 1501:13:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC) 1457:13:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC) 1414:01:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC) 1366:13:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC) 1342:01:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC) 1320:13:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC) 1283:01:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC) 1263:13:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC) 1239:01:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC) 1221:13:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC) 1189:01:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC) 1174:13:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC) 1146:17:02, 16 January 2011 (UTC) 1126:17:00, 16 January 2011 (UTC) 1110:16:55, 16 January 2011 (UTC) 1090:11:02, 16 January 2011 (UTC) 1074:13:35, 14 January 2011 (UTC) 1058:13:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC) 1038:Snow Lion Flag: As has been 1009:20:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC) 986:15:32, 23 October 2010 (UTC) 963:05:19, 23 October 2010 (UTC) 948:02:02, 19 October 2010 (UTC) 933:01:34, 19 October 2010 (UTC) 787:19:48, 8 November 2007 (UTC) 675:Government of Tibet in Exile 625:Government of Tibet in Exile 542:18:19, 31 January 2006 (UTC) 528:16:32, 18 January 2022 (UTC) 490:22:56, 12 January 2006 (UTC) 2890:for which you will provide 2727:this article would change.— 1919:Position of Kintetsubuffalo 1827:be very helpful. Thanks. -- 884:15:10, 24 August 2009 (UTC) 627:" or the Government of the 412:For more information, see: 264:is within the scope of the 3009: 2988:WikiProject Tibet articles 2978:Start-Class Tibet articles 2936:16:40, 30 March 2015 (UTC) 2913:13:24, 23 March 2015 (UTC) 2491:the two are equivalent. -- 1310:Again, cite your source.-- 1207:If true, and that's a big 919:Massive changes by Quigley 633:People's Republic of China 354:Template:WikiProject Tibet 2951:18:27, 6 April 2015 (UTC) 2875:First published reference 2800:03:30, 4 March 2011 (UTC) 2771:03:20, 4 March 2011 (UTC) 2737:21:43, 5 March 2011 (UTC) 2702:14:39, 2 March 2011 (UTC) 2671:05:02, 2 March 2011 (UTC) 2653:02:43, 2 March 2011 (UTC) 2638:02:04, 2 March 2011 (UTC) 2610:01:59, 2 March 2011 (UTC) 2589:01:37, 2 March 2011 (UTC) 2535:was copied or moved into 1389: 866:13:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC) 846:13:34, 20 July 2008 (UTC) 826:04:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC) 816:04:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC) 806:05:31, 23 June 2007 (UTC) 458:06:57, 28 June 2008 (UTC) 370: 319: 233: 215: 80:Be welcoming to newcomers 2824:16:50, 3 June 2012 (UTC) 2412:numerous spelling errors 1641:response to your soaping 892:Can anyone confirm this? 745:Please do not modify it. 580:Please do not modify it. 513:07:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC) 277:Heraldry and vexillology 228:Heraldry and vexillology 2452:I didn't know that the 2365:set one foot in turkey' 2201:description set in law. 1995:Kintetsubuffalo should 1014:down that road again.-- 629:Tibet Autonomous Region 2210:As I have said, there 446:Source: www.tibet.com 197:This article is rated 75:avoid personal attacks 2829:7th-century standard? 1422:Instead of a general 1324:The imperative is on 799:Coat of arms of Tibet 201:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 100:Neutral point of view 2543:. The former page's 2344:fell to Saudi Arabia 2329:Xibei San Ma (China) 105:No original research 2549:provide attribution 2410:the entry contains 1960:Position of Quigley 1933:parts I can accept 1616:your responsibility 1229:cited as a source. 654:geographical region 467:The article reads: 2941:into the article. 2537:Talk:Flag of Tibet 2183:Five Star Red Flag 1848:Flags of the World 1507:Flags of the World 1432:tag, I put inline 1130:"this page" means 925:Chris (クリス • フィッチ) 838:Chris (クリス • フィッチ) 272:list of open tasks 203:content assessment 86:dispute resolution 47: 2894:? Remember, your 2783: 2685: 2621: 2572: 2564: 2555: 2554: 2532:User talk:Quigley 2494: 2133: 2095: 1997:assume good faith 1907: 1837: 1400: 1399: 1330:original research 1199:cut-and-paste job 903:comment added by 515: 503:comment added by 427: 426: 423: 391: 390: 387: 386: 383: 382: 334:WikiProject Tibet 298: 297: 294: 293: 183: 182: 66:Assume good faith 43: 3000: 2924: 2892:reliable sources 2888:verifiable claim 2885: 2796: 2791: 2787: 2781: 2729:Greg Pandatshang 2698: 2693: 2689: 2683: 2634: 2629: 2625: 2619: 2585: 2580: 2576: 2570: 2558: 2534: 2522: 2521: 2515: 2507: 2502: 2498: 2492: 2127: 2089: 1901: 1852:deemed to be an 1831: 1761:, and something 1724:Greg Pandatshang 1666: 1441: 1435: 1431: 1425: 1396: 1375: 1304: 1298: 978:Greg Pandatshang 915: 747: 707: 702: 697: 606: 601: 596: 582: 498: 411: 400: 393: 377:importance scale 359: 358: 355: 352: 349: 328: 321: 320: 315: 307: 300: 288: 287: 284: 281: 278: 258: 253: 252: 251: 242: 235: 234: 224: 217: 200: 194: 193: 185: 179: 178: 164: 95:Article policies 16: 3008: 3007: 3003: 3002: 3001: 2999: 2998: 2997: 2958: 2957: 2918: 2900:reliable source 2879: 2877: 2831: 2808: 2794: 2789: 2785: 2769: 2761:NativeForeigner 2755: 2696: 2691: 2687: 2632: 2627: 2623: 2583: 2578: 2574: 2530: 2519: 2505: 2500: 2496: 2484: 2461:"sultanate" of 2361:and he did not 2350:took over it?) 2322: 2022: 1962: 1935:as stated above 1921: 1856:source by Users 1824: 1741:Kintetsubuffalo 1709:Kintetsubuffalo 1662: 1597:Kintetsubuffalo 1583:Kintetsubuffalo 1515:Kintetsubuffalo 1493:Kintetsubuffalo 1449:Kintetsubuffalo 1439: 1437:citation needed 1433: 1429: 1423: 1390: 1358:Kintetsubuffalo 1312:Kintetsubuffalo 1302: 1296: 1255:Kintetsubuffalo 1213:Kintetsubuffalo 1166:Kintetsubuffalo 1118:Kintetsubuffalo 1082:Kintetsubuffalo 1050:Kintetsubuffalo 1016:Kintetsubuffalo 921: 898: 894: 834: 795: 776: 752: 743: 705: 700: 695: 652:(or Tibet as a 621: 604: 599: 594: 578: 535: 530: 465: 432: 373:High-importance 356: 353: 350: 347: 346: 314:High‑importance 313: 285: 282: 279: 276: 275: 256:Heraldry portal 254: 249: 247: 198: 121: 116: 115: 114: 91: 61: 12: 11: 5: 3006: 3004: 2996: 2995: 2990: 2985: 2980: 2975: 2970: 2960: 2959: 2956: 2955: 2954: 2953: 2876: 2873: 2848:who picked up 2830: 2827: 2807: 2804: 2803: 2802: 2765: 2754: 2751: 2750: 2749: 2748: 2747: 2746: 2745: 2744: 2743: 2742: 2741: 2740: 2739: 2713: 2712: 2711: 2710: 2709: 2708: 2707: 2706: 2705: 2704: 2680: 2663:121.220.41.102 2553: 2552: 2547:now serves to 2523: 2483: 2480: 2393:rulers website 2321: 2318: 2317: 2316: 2315: 2314: 2297: 2296: 2295: 2294: 2287: 2286: 2285: 2284: 2277: 2276: 2275: 2274: 2263: 2262: 2261: 2260: 2259: 2258: 2249: 2248: 2247: 2246: 2245: 2244: 2236: 2235: 2234: 2233: 2232: 2231: 2222: 2221: 2220: 2219: 2205: 2204: 2203: 2202: 2195: 2194: 2193: 2192: 2176: 2175: 2174: 2173: 2166: 2165: 2164: 2163: 2156: 2155: 2154: 2153: 2152: 2151: 2083: 2082: 2074: 2070: 2067: 2063: 2056: 2052: 2049: 2045: 2041: 2021: 2018: 2004: 2003: 2000: 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833: 830: 829: 828: 794: 791: 790: 789: 775: 772: 753: 751: 750: 729:Justin (koavf) 721:I ain't fer it 691: 690: 689: 688: 620: 617: 586: 585: 573: 572: 571: 539:201.51.215.113 534: 531: 517: 494: 464: 461: 431: 428: 425: 424: 410: 406:Tibetan script 401: 389: 388: 385: 384: 381: 380: 369: 363: 362: 360: 357:Tibet articles 343:the discussion 329: 317: 316: 308: 296: 295: 292: 291: 289: 260: 259: 243: 231: 230: 225: 213: 212: 206: 195: 181: 180: 118: 117: 113: 112: 107: 102: 93: 92: 90: 89: 82: 77: 68: 62: 60: 59: 48: 39: 38: 35: 34: 28: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3005: 2994: 2991: 2989: 2986: 2984: 2981: 2979: 2976: 2974: 2971: 2969: 2966: 2965: 2963: 2952: 2948: 2944: 2939: 2938: 2937: 2933: 2929: 2922: 2917: 2916: 2915: 2914: 2910: 2906: 2901: 2897: 2893: 2889: 2883: 2874: 2872: 2871: 2867: 2863: 2857: 2855: 2851: 2847: 2843: 2839: 2838:this web-page 2835: 2828: 2826: 2825: 2821: 2817: 2813: 2805: 2801: 2798: 2797: 2788: 2779: 2775: 2774: 2773: 2772: 2768: 2763: 2762: 2752: 2738: 2734: 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2208: 2207: 2206: 2199: 2198: 2197: 2196: 2190: 2189: 2184: 2180: 2179: 2178: 2177: 2170: 2169: 2168: 2167: 2160: 2159: 2158: 2157: 2150: 2146: 2142: 2138: 2137: 2136: 2131: 2126: 2122: 2121: 2120: 2117: 2113: 2112:'s Roundtable 2110: 2105: 2101: 2100: 2099: 2098: 2093: 2088: 2080: 2075: 2071: 2068: 2064: 2061: 2057: 2053: 2050: 2046: 2042: 2039: 2034: 2033: 2032: 2030: 2026: 2020:Third opinion 2019: 2017: 2016: 2012: 2008: 2001: 1998: 1994: 1991: 1990: 1989: 1982: 1978: 1975: 1971: 1969:specifically. 1967: 1966: 1965: 1959: 1954: 1951: 1948: 1947: 1943: 1940: 1937: 1936: 1930: 1926: 1923: 1922: 1918: 1910: 1905: 1900: 1895: 1894: 1893: 1889: 1885: 1881: 1880: 1875: 1873: 1869: 1865: 1861: 1857: 1855: 1849: 1845: 1844: 1843: 1842: 1841: 1840: 1835: 1830: 1822:Third opinion 1821: 1819: 1818: 1815: 1811: 1810:'s Roundtable 1808: 1798: 1797: 1796: 1795: 1794: 1786: 1781: 1777: 1776: 1775: 1774: 1773: 1764: 1760: 1756: 1752: 1751: 1750: 1746: 1742: 1737: 1733: 1729: 1725: 1722:description.— 1720: 1719: 1718: 1714: 1710: 1706: 1705: 1704: 1703: 1700: 1696: 1695:'s Roundtable 1693: 1689: 1682: 1678: 1674: 1670: 1665: 1664:"A third Jew" 1659: 1658: 1657: 1656: 1653: 1649: 1648:'s Roundtable 1646: 1642: 1632: 1629: 1625: 1624:'s Roundtable 1622: 1617: 1612: 1608: 1607: 1606: 1602: 1598: 1594: 1592: 1588: 1584: 1580: 1574: 1570: 1566: 1562: 1558: 1553: 1548: 1547: 1546: 1545: 1544: 1543: 1535: 1530: 1526: 1525: 1524: 1520: 1516: 1512: 1508: 1504: 1503: 1502: 1498: 1494: 1490: 1486: 1483: 1480: 1476: 1475: 1474: 1473: 1469: 1465: 1458: 1454: 1450: 1446: 1445: 1438: 1428: 1421: 1420: 1415: 1411: 1407: 1404: 1403: 1402: 1401: 1394: 1388: 1380: 1376: 1369: 1368: 1367: 1363: 1359: 1355: 1354: 1349: 1348: 1343: 1339: 1335: 1331: 1327: 1323: 1322: 1321: 1317: 1313: 1309: 1308: 1301: 1294: 1290: 1289: 1284: 1280: 1276: 1271: 1266: 1265: 1264: 1260: 1256: 1252: 1251: 1246: 1245: 1240: 1236: 1232: 1228: 1224: 1223: 1222: 1218: 1214: 1210: 1206: 1205: 1200: 1196: 1195: 1190: 1186: 1182: 1177: 1176: 1175: 1171: 1167: 1163: 1162: 1155: 1154: 1153: 1152: 1147: 1144: 1140: 1139:'s Roundtable 1137: 1133: 1129: 1128: 1127: 1123: 1119: 1115: 1111: 1108: 1104: 1103:'s Roundtable 1101: 1097: 1093: 1092: 1091: 1087: 1083: 1079: 1075: 1072: 1068: 1067:'s Roundtable 1065: 1061: 1060: 1059: 1055: 1051: 1047: 1046: 1041: 1037: 1036: 1029:stonewalling. 1027: 1026: 1025: 1021: 1017: 1012: 1011: 1010: 1006: 1002: 998: 993: 987: 983: 979: 974: 973: 972: 971: 970: 969: 964: 960: 956: 951: 950: 949: 945: 941: 937: 936: 935: 934: 930: 926: 918: 916: 914: 910: 906: 905:88.105.52.199 902: 891: 885: 881: 877: 873: 872: 871: 870: 867: 863: 859: 855: 850: 849: 848: 847: 843: 839: 831: 827: 824: 820: 819: 818: 817: 814: 808: 807: 804: 800: 792: 788: 785: 781: 780: 779: 773: 771: 770: 767: 764: 760: 758: 749: 746: 740: 739: 738: 737: 734: 730: 726: 722: 717: 716: 713: 712: 708: 703: 698: 687: 684: 680: 676: 672: 671: 669: 666: 663: 659: 655: 651: 649: 644: 643: 642: 641: 638: 634: 630: 626: 618: 616: 615: 612: 611: 607: 602: 597: 591: 584: 581: 575: 574: 570: 567: 564: 560: 559: 558: 557: 553: 549: 544: 543: 540: 533:Status in PRC 532: 529: 525: 521: 516: 514: 510: 506: 505:80.145.247.14 502: 497: 492: 491: 488: 482: 481: 478: 474: 471: 468: 462: 460: 459: 455: 451: 447: 444: 441: 438: 435: 429: 421: 418: 415: 408: 407: 402: 399: 395: 394: 378: 374: 368: 365: 364: 361: 344: 340: 336: 335: 330: 327: 323: 322: 318: 312: 309: 306: 302: 290: 273: 269: 268: 263: 262:Flag of Tibet 257: 246: 244: 241: 237: 236: 232: 229: 226: 223: 219: 214: 210: 204: 196: 192: 187: 186: 177: 173: 170: 167: 163: 159: 155: 152: 149: 146: 143: 140: 137: 134: 131: 127: 124: 123:Find sources: 120: 119: 111: 110:Verifiability 108: 106: 103: 101: 98: 97: 96: 87: 83: 81: 78: 76: 72: 69: 67: 64: 63: 57: 53: 52:Learn to edit 49: 46: 41: 40: 37: 36: 32: 26: 25:Flag of Tibet 22: 18: 17: 2896:own research 2878: 2858: 2832: 2809: 2792: 2777: 2759: 2756: 2694: 2676: 2630: 2615: 2596: 2581: 2560: 2556: 2536: 2527:this version 2503: 2487: 2485: 2460: 2453: 2451: 2444: 2440: 2438: 2433: 2431: 2419: 2416:Zuo Zongtang 2411: 2409: 2404: 2397: 2382: 2377: 2364: 2360: 2358: 2352: 2347: 2343: 2332: 2326: 2323: 2270: 2215: 2211: 2187: 2186: 2103: 2084: 2078: 2024: 2023: 2005: 1988:Behavioral: 1987: 1963: 1934: 1932: 1878: 1853: 1825: 1804: 1792: 1784: 1779: 1771: 1762: 1758: 1754: 1687: 1685: 1640: 1637: 1615: 1610: 1560: 1557:Tibetan flag 1556: 1551: 1461: 1395:38:2:173-246 1392: 1325: 1269: 1208: 1131: 1095: 922: 895: 853: 835: 813:129.93.17.66 809: 796: 793:Coat of arms 778:How ironic. 777: 757:template:TIB 754: 744: 741: 724: 720: 718: 710: 692: 660:. 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