1344:
article. I think the article is already too repetitive. Most of the description section is framed in terms of the difference between a flat white and a cappuccino and latte. Then we have another section which also discusses the difference between these drinks. We only need to say things once. I think we should delete the long quote from
Tourism NZ and state the key points once. We should also note contradictions:Eg: Moldvaer states that a flat white consists of a double espresso but Tourism NZ states that it should have one 30mm shot. (We all know that a flat white can be one, two or even three shots and can be in a 6, 8, 10 or 12 oz cup or container, but for wikipedia we can only use reliable sources that state this.) Happy to discuss
813:
694:
1109:
meant an espresso based coffee with milk which wasn't frothed like a cappuccino. My guess is that the modern flat white evolved over time and that there is no agreement on what constitutes a modern flat white. Even if you look at this article you see that various sources disagree on what a "true" flat white is. I think the
History and Origins section of this article should states that the term "flat white coffee" has been around for many decades but there is disagreement over the development of the modern drink.
302:
468:
874:
292:
853:
265:
1313:
section because the material was mostly a description of a flat white. The fact is that flat whites can be served in take-away cups, ceramic cups or glass cups of various sizes. They can have one, two or three shots of espresso. Each shot of espresso can be about 30 ml or a ristretto. Flat whites usually have a higher proportion of coffee to milk and a thinner layer of microfoam than lattes or cappuccinos but sometimes they don't.
884:
708:
673:
1168:(XXG), original research means material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists. This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources." The current statements are purely factual, are reliably sources and do not reach a conclusionwhich is not stated in the source. Happy to discuss.
718:
791:
392:
203:
687:
966:
234:
832:
1167:
I have restored the properly sourced material you removed. Please do not remove reliably sourced information without prior discussion and consensus, particularly when we had discussed the matter last year and apparently had reached agreement on new wording. To reiterate: policy states, " On
Knowledge
1108:
I agree that the statement "the earliest documented records" needs to be changed. Also have a look at the talk section above which mentions two earlier documented references to "flat white coffee" from
England in the 1960s. The term "flat white" has been around since at least the 1960s and originally
1217:
1) The 1960s source is a reliable source. There is no synthesis involved. Your statement that the source is "primary, so we don't know if "flat white"is referring to the one today" is a non sequitur. Policy on primary sources and the question of whether the flat white refered to in the source is the
1112:
I think that we should just state that the term "flat white coffee" has been used since at least the 1960s, with a citation to the Peter
Shaffer play Public Ear (1962). Then a statement that the term was used in Sydney cafés in the 1980s (using the current sources). These would be factual statements
1225:
3) The question of whether the espresso based drink called a "flat white" referred to in the play might not be the same as your definition of a flat white is irrelevant. The article makes clear that there is no consensus on what constitutes a "modern flat white" except that it contains at least one
1312:
I have removed a lot of information which was unsourced editorial opinion. I have also replaced some personal opinions from bloggers with a recipe for a flat white which appears in a reliable source. I have moved some of the material that was in the "Similar
Beverages" section to the "Description"
1229:
4) Your main concern seems to be that the origin of the drink is unknown. Indeed, one of the articles in the source quotes a coffee expert as stating that the
Australian and New Zealand claims are both dubious and the drink probably took off in England in the 1950s. Would you be happy if I dropped
1221:
2) The reliably sourced statement appears in the
Origins and history. The section is about the origins and history of the espresso based coffee topped with milk which is known as a flat white. The source refers to a drink called a "flat white" served in an expresso bar. It is therefore relevant to
1343:
I have made some changes to your edits. I have removed some unsourced editorial comments and have used more concise wording. A bigger problem I have is that you have repeated statements (in paraphrase) that are already in the quoted passage from tourism New
Zealand or are stated elsewhere in the
1369:
An editor has repeatedly tried to add content about a "Google Doodle" of a flat white. 2 editors have objected to this on the grounds that it is trivia which doesn't improve the article. I am also opposed to adding an "In popular culture" section as this will only encourage other editors to add
1328:
Did an edit to resolve some of the internal inconsistencies, especially where the text didn't actually agree with the sources being referenced (eg NZ tourism quote and the accompanying text stated different volumes for the cup!). Modified the "Similar
Beverages" to be about those beverages.
1273:
reads like original research and the quote "The milk should be velvety rather than fluffy and therefore stronger, which requires a shorter, ristretto espresso shot to avoid harsh flavours." closely resembles paraphrase plagiarism from the original article. This article provides no scientific
1093:
It's original research because the article mentions that it is the earliest known record of the flat white, however the source only passes the name. I agree that the other mentions should be kept, however we can't say that it is the "earliest known record" because we don't know that.
1050:
Policy states: "A primary source may be used on Knowledge (XXG) only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge."
1031:. It is not Knowledge (XXG)'s job to research earliest known occurances of the phrase, we need reliable secondary sources that say that it is the earliest known occurance. We also do not know that it refers to the flat white drink in question,
1274:
explanation as to why a ristretto may "avoid harsh flavors," therefore coming across as preferential/cultural rather than factual. I might suggest linking to the ristretto page and re-phrasing or omitting the plagiarized section.
1370:
expamples of any mention of the beverage in TV shows, movies, games, comic books etc. I think the emphasis should be on improving the content about the actual beverage, not encouraging tangential trivia. Happy to discuss.
1203:, this gives the gives the false impression that the origin of the drink is known, when there is no consensus on its origins. We would either have to have the tag for both countries or remove them all together. —
153:
1187:. The 1960s source is primary, so we do not know if "flat white" is referring to the one we know today. We would need a secondary source describing the origins of flat whites to figure this out. In
617:
project banner to food and drink related articles and content to help bring them to the attention of members. For a complete list of banners for WikiProject Food and drink and its child projects,
400:
275:
631:
596:
455:
1230:
the Schaeffer source and replaced it with that one? Would you be happy if I rewrote the article to make it clear that the claims of invention by Preston and Townsend are dubious?
1065:
to state that these are the earliest instances of flat white coffees or that they are the same as today's flat white coffees. But no such statements are made in the article.
362:
194:
1438:
1057:
It is a statment of fact that these cafés served flat white coffees at these times. These statements are supported by reliable sources. Therefore they are not OR. It
147:
1398:
352:
979:
944:
618:
1113:
with no claim that the flat whites served were the same as the modern drink. Then the various claims of invention of the modern drink starting with Alan Preston.
625:
781:
79:
1428:
1403:
934:
328:
1413:
1027:
I've just removed occurances of flat white in Australian newspaper archives which states that they are the earliest known records. I've removed it under
771:
1433:
910:
1393:
85:
1418:
478:
315:
270:
405:
1423:
30:
897:
858:
1408:
693:
44:
747:
734:
678:
99:
1028:
104:
20:
74:
245:
1052:
65:
686:
327:
related articles on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
168:
607:
135:
1375:
1349:
1318:
1294:
1235:
1173:
1146:
1132:
1118:
1070:
1010:
202:
185:
972:
109:
1279:
995:
190:
649:
213:
251:
1088:
in the mid-1980s. A review of the Sydney café Miller's Treat in May 1983 refers to their "flat white coffee"
129:
1193:
Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation.
1371:
1345:
1314:
1290:
1231:
1169:
1142:
1128:
1114:
1066:
55:
909:
on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
1289:
Thanks for pointing that out. I have removed it. I have also removed some unsourced editorial opinion.
125:
70:
1275:
906:
1188:
812:
233:
1250:
1209:
1099:
1040:
161:
1032:
603:
175:
1334:
889:
743:
218:
822:
1271:
1141:
I have removed the Original Research tag as the section now has citations to reliable sources.
501:
467:
51:
723:
215:
141:
1246:
1205:
1164:
1095:
1036:
560:
291:
264:
1387:
1330:
1222:
the origins and history of the espresso based coffee drink known as the flat white.
873:
852:
526:
307:
1226:
shot of coffee and is topped with milk which is less frothed than in a cappucino.
902:
707:
672:
586:
879:
790:
713:
297:
24:
1085:
971:
This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the
739:
530:
391:
803:
217:
538:
1379:
1353:
1338:
1322:
1298:
1283:
1253:
1239:
1212:
1177:
1150:
1136:
1122:
1103:
1074:
1044:
602:
Delete unrelated trivia sections found in articles. Please review
582:
564:
534:
518:
514:
510:
324:
1084:
The earliest documented references to the beverage date back to
590:
556:
522:
506:
320:
1127:
I have made the the above changes. Let me know what you think.
989:
960:
227:
219:
15:
811:
789:
390:
1218:
same thing as a modern flat white are two separate issues.
1199:
1183:
445:
440:
435:
430:
738:, which aims to improve Knowledge (XXG)'s coverage of
160:
901:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
319:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
1244:
Yes that would be good. Thanks for your analysis. —
403:, a task force which is currently considered to be
373:
174:
626:Category:Knowledge (XXG) requested images of food
33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
1082:
746:. If you would like to participate, visit the
1004:This page has archives. Sections older than
8:
1439:Pages in the Knowledge (XXG) Top 25 Report
847:
667:
418:
370:
337:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Food and drink
259:
399:This article is within the scope of the
919:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject New Zealand
849:
669:
261:
231:
1399:Low-importance Food and drink articles
1192:
1014:when more than 4 sections are present.
756:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Australia
7:
895:This article is within the scope of
313:This article is within the scope of
1429:Low-importance New Zealand articles
1404:WikiProject Food and drink articles
1079:I disagree because the article says
975:. The week in which this happened:
624:Provide photographs and images for
475:Here are some tasks you can do for
340:Template:WikiProject Food and drink
250:It is of interest to the following
23:for discussing improvements to the
798:Need help improving this article?
14:
1414:Low-importance Australia articles
1008:may be automatically archived by
50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome!
1434:WikiProject New Zealand articles
964:
922:Template:WikiProject New Zealand
882:
872:
851:
830:
716:
706:
692:
685:
671:
630:Consider joining this project's
466:
300:
290:
263:
232:
201:
45:Click here to start a new topic.
1394:C-Class Food and drink articles
939:This article has been rated as
776:This article has been rated as
652:from the project's tasks pages.
595:Participate in project-related
357:This article has been rated as
1419:WikiProject Australia articles
1323:11:38, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
1299:11:50, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
1284:17:59, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
1151:03:39, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
826:can be contacted via email to
759:Template:WikiProject Australia
615:{{WikiProject Food and drink}}
1:
1254:05:19, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
1240:01:22, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
1213:00:28, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
1178:22:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
913:and see a list of open tasks.
838:for non-editorial assistance.
804:National Library of Australia
331:and see a list of open tasks.
42:Put new text under old text.
1424:C-Class New Zealand articles
1197:For your removal of the tag
823:Wikimedia Australia chapter
1455:
1409:C-Class Australia articles
1380:03:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
1354:04:36, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
1339:21:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
945:project's importance scale
907:New Zealand-related topics
782:project's importance scale
479:WikiProject Food and drink
453:To edit this page, select
363:project's importance scale
316:WikiProject Food and drink
1123:05:53, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
1104:05:23, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
1075:04:43, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
1045:04:34, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
1002:
938:
867:
831:
819:
797:
775:
701:
422:Food and Drink task list:
417:
398:
369:
356:
285:
258:
80:Be welcoming to newcomers
1137:05:13, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
744:Australia-related topics
610:to learn how to do this.
898:WikiProject New Zealand
732:is within the scope of
343:Food and drink articles
1191:there is the sentence
1090:
1011:Lowercase sigmabot III
816:
794:
648:Note: These lists are
573:articles currently at
547:articles currently at
495:Status or below up to
395:
240:This article is rated
75:avoid personal attacks
815:
793:
735:WikiProject Australia
632:Assessment task force
394:
244:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
195:Auto-archiving period
100:Neutral point of view
1053:WP:ORIGINAL RESEARCH
980:March 10 to 16, 2024
925:New Zealand articles
597:deletion discussions
401:Beverages Task Force
105:No original research
491:articles currently
374:Related taskforces:
1362:In popular culture
890:New Zealand portal
817:
795:
762:Australia articles
608:WP:Handling trivia
502:Agaricus bisporus
396:
246:content assessment
86:dispute resolution
47:
1372:Aemilius Adolphin
1346:Aemilius Adolphin
1315:Aemilius Adolphin
1291:Aemilius Adolphin
1232:Aemilius Adolphin
1170:Aemilius Adolphin
1143:Aemilius Adolphin
1129:Aemilius Adolphin
1115:Aemilius Adolphin
1067:Aemilius Adolphin
1061:be a question of
1023:Original Research
1018:
1017:
988:
987:
959:
958:
955:
954:
951:
950:
846:
845:
842:
841:
666:
665:
662:
661:
658:
657:
645:
644:
505:(i.e. mushroom),
487:Help bring these
413:
412:
226:
225:
66:Assume good faith
43:
1446:
1249:
1208:
1202:
1186:
1013:
990:
968:
967:
961:
927:
926:
923:
920:
917:
892:
887:
886:
885:
876:
869:
868:
863:
855:
848:
837:
836:wikimedia.org.au
835:
834:
833:
764:
763:
760:
757:
754:
726:
724:Australia portal
721:
720:
719:
710:
703:
702:
697:
696:
695:
690:
689:
688:
683:
675:
668:
653:
470:
462:
461:
419:
381:
371:
345:
344:
341:
338:
335:
310:
305:
304:
303:
294:
287:
286:
281:
278:
267:
260:
243:
237:
236:
228:
220:
206:
205:
196:
179:
178:
164:
95:Article policies
16:
1454:
1453:
1449:
1448:
1447:
1445:
1444:
1443:
1384:
1383:
1364:
1307:
1276:Peaseblossomxiv
1268:
1245:
1204:
1198:
1182:
1063:interpretation
1025:
1009:
984:
965:
924:
921:
918:
915:
914:
888:
883:
881:
861:
829:
827:
800:Ask a Librarian
761:
758:
755:
752:
751:
722:
717:
715:
691:
684:
681:
654:
647:
641:
638:in this section
571:High Importance
471:
450:
379:
342:
339:
336:
333:
332:
306:
301:
299:
279:
273:
241:
222:
221:
216:
193:
121:
116:
115:
114:
91:
61:
12:
11:
5:
1452:
1450:
1442:
1441:
1436:
1431:
1426:
1421:
1416:
1411:
1406:
1401:
1396:
1386:
1385:
1363:
1360:
1359:
1358:
1357:
1356:
1306:
1303:
1302:
1301:
1267:
1264:
1263:
1262:
1261:
1260:
1259:
1258:
1257:
1256:
1227:
1223:
1219:
1195:
1161:
1160:
1159:
1158:
1157:
1156:
1155:
1154:
1153:
1110:
1091:
1080:
1055:
1024:
1021:
1016:
1015:
1003:
1000:
999:
986:
985:
983:
982:
976:
969:
957:
956:
953:
952:
949:
948:
941:Low-importance
937:
931:
930:
928:
911:the discussion
894:
893:
877:
865:
864:
862:Low‑importance
856:
844:
843:
840:
839:
818:
808:
807:
796:
786:
785:
778:Low-importance
774:
768:
767:
765:
728:
727:
711:
699:
698:
682:Low‑importance
676:
664:
663:
660:
659:
656:
655:
646:
643:
642:
640:
639:
628:
622:
611:
600:
593:
567:
561:French cuisine
545:Top Importance
541:
489:Top Importance
484:
473:
472:
465:
460:
459:
449:
448:
443:
438:
433:
427:
424:
423:
415:
414:
411:
410:
397:
387:
386:
384:
382:
376:
375:
367:
366:
359:Low-importance
355:
349:
348:
346:
334:Food and drink
329:the discussion
312:
311:
295:
283:
282:
280:Low‑importance
271:Food and drink
268:
256:
255:
249:
238:
224:
223:
214:
212:
211:
208:
207:
181:
180:
118:
117:
113:
112:
107:
102:
93:
92:
90:
89:
82:
77:
68:
62:
60:
59:
48:
39:
38:
35:
34:
28:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1451:
1440:
1437:
1435:
1432:
1430:
1427:
1425:
1422:
1420:
1417:
1415:
1412:
1410:
1407:
1405:
1402:
1400:
1397:
1395:
1392:
1391:
1389:
1382:
1381:
1377:
1373:
1367:
1361:
1355:
1351:
1347:
1342:
1341:
1340:
1336:
1332:
1327:
1326:
1325:
1324:
1320:
1316:
1310:
1304:
1300:
1296:
1292:
1288:
1287:
1286:
1285:
1281:
1277:
1272:
1265:
1255:
1252:
1248:
1243:
1242:
1241:
1237:
1233:
1228:
1224:
1220:
1216:
1215:
1214:
1211:
1207:
1201:
1196:
1194:
1190:
1185:
1181:
1180:
1179:
1175:
1171:
1166:
1162:
1152:
1148:
1144:
1140:
1139:
1138:
1134:
1130:
1126:
1125:
1124:
1120:
1116:
1111:
1107:
1106:
1105:
1101:
1097:
1092:
1089:
1087:
1081:
1078:
1077:
1076:
1072:
1068:
1064:
1060:
1056:
1054:
1049:
1048:
1047:
1046:
1042:
1038:
1034:
1030:
1022:
1020:
1012:
1007:
1001:
998:
997:
992:
991:
981:
978:
977:
974:
973:Top 25 Report
970:
963:
962:
946:
942:
936:
933:
932:
929:
912:
908:
904:
900:
899:
891:
880:
878:
875:
871:
870:
866:
860:
857:
854:
850:
825:
824:
814:
810:
809:
805:
801:
792:
788:
787:
783:
779:
773:
770:
769:
766:
749:
745:
741:
737:
736:
731:
725:
714:
712:
709:
705:
704:
700:
680:
677:
674:
670:
651:
637:
636:project ideas
633:
629:
627:
623:
620:
616:
612:
609:
605:
601:
598:
594:
592:
588:
584:
580:
577:status up to
576:
572:
568:
566:
562:
558:
554:
551:status up to
550:
546:
542:
540:
536:
532:
528:
524:
520:
516:
512:
508:
504:
503:
498:
494:
490:
486:
485:
482:
481:
480:
474:
469:
464:
463:
458:
457:
452:
451:
447:
444:
442:
439:
437:
434:
432:
429:
428:
426:
425:
421:
420:
416:
408:
407:
402:
393:
389:
388:
385:
383:
378:
377:
372:
368:
364:
360:
354:
351:
350:
347:
330:
326:
322:
318:
317:
309:
298:
296:
293:
289:
288:
284:
277:
272:
269:
266:
262:
257:
253:
247:
239:
235:
230:
229:
210:
209:
204:
200:
192:
189:
187:
183:
182:
177:
173:
170:
167:
163:
159:
155:
152:
149:
146:
143:
140:
137:
134:
131:
127:
124:
123:Find sources:
120:
119:
111:
110:Verifiability
108:
106:
103:
101:
98:
97:
96:
87:
83:
81:
78:
76:
72:
69:
67:
64:
63:
57:
53:
52:Learn to edit
49:
46:
41:
40:
37:
36:
32:
26:
22:
18:
17:
1368:
1365:
1311:
1308:
1270:Citation 14
1269:
1083:
1062:
1058:
1026:
1019:
1005:
993:
940:
896:
820:
799:
777:
748:project page
733:
729:
635:
614:
578:
574:
570:
569:Bring these
552:
548:
544:
543:Bring these
527:Ham and eggs
500:
496:
492:
488:
477:
476:
454:
404:
358:
314:
308:Drink portal
252:WikiProjects
198:
184:
171:
165:
157:
150:
144:
138:
132:
122:
94:
19:This is the
1305:Description
916:New Zealand
903:New Zealand
859:New Zealand
650:transcluded
634:. List any
619:select here
587:Burger King
148:free images
31:not a forum
1388:Categories
1366:Hello all
1309:Hello all
1189:WP:PRIMARY
994:Archives:
730:Flat white
25:Flat white
1266:Ristretto
1247:Panamitsu
1206:Panamitsu
1184:This diff
1165:Panamitsu
1096:Panamitsu
1086:Australia
1037:Panamitsu
1033:WP:NOTDIC
753:Australia
740:Australia
679:Australia
604:WP:Trivia
531:Soy sauce
499:status:
276:Beverages
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1331:B adger1
613:Add the
581:status:
555:status:
406:inactive
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1006:90 days
943:on the
802:at the
780:on the
436:history
361:on the
242:C-class
199:90Â days
154:WPÂ refs
142:scholar
1251:(talk)
1210:(talk)
1059:would
539:Yogurt
248:scale.
126:Google
1029:WP:OR
583:Apple
565:Sugar
535:Sushi
519:Drink
515:Curry
511:Bread
446:purge
441:watch
325:drink
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1376:talk
1350:talk
1335:talk
1319:talk
1295:talk
1280:talk
1236:talk
1200:here
1174:talk
1147:talk
1133:talk
1119:talk
1100:talk
1071:talk
1041:talk
905:and
828:help
821:The
742:and
606:and
591:Fish
557:Beer
523:Food
507:Beef
456:here
431:edit
323:and
321:food
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
935:Low
772:Low
353:Low
176:TWL
1390::
1378:)
1352:)
1337:)
1321:)
1297:)
1282:)
1238:)
1176:)
1149:)
1135:)
1121:)
1102:)
1073:)
1043:)
1035:.
589:,
585:,
579:FA
575:GA
563:,
559:,
553:FA
549:GA
537:,
533:,
529:,
525:,
521:,
517:,
513:,
509:,
497:GA
483::
380:/
274::
197::
156:)
54:;
1374:(
1348:(
1333:(
1317:(
1293:(
1278:(
1234:(
1172:(
1163:@
1145:(
1131:(
1117:(
1098:(
1069:(
1039:(
996:1
947:.
806:.
784:.
750:.
621:.
599:.
493:B
409:.
365:.
254::
191:1
188::
172:·
166:·
158:·
151:·
145:·
139:·
133:·
128:(
58:.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
