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user apparently feels that, nevertheless, there is a consistent naming convention applicable here, despite the finding of the RFC, favoring the current title, and CONSISTENT should still apply. I'm sorry, but I think the RFC result trumps the opinion of one user. If they had argued something like the scope of the RFC was larger than what matters here, I might have given it more weight. But I just don't see that, and I can't go beyond the bounds set by the arguments actually presented here. More importantly, there is simply no retort to the nom's powerful "
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that clenches this discussion in favor of the current title for me, since it is backed by the stability that these article titles have had over the past several years. I do not find the naturality of either term particularly superior to the other in either direction. Perhaps your last sentence, which
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naming convention among similar articles, where and when applicable. But it has been pointed out, without any disagreeing much less refuting, that a recent RFC (last year) failed to establish consensus that such a consistent naming convention exists for precisely the articles in question here. One
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Having weighted all five, in particular the NATURALNESS argument of the two wordings which I find close to equal, it is my opinion that consistency between border article titles is still more desirable (as this particular proposed change makes the set of article titles more heterogenous). I think
1686:(nor does "Germany-France relations"); whereas both adjectival forms do; "Franco-German relations" being way the more common. So looks like that needs changing too, but that's a separate debate. Basically the title of this article is an ungrammatical Knowledge (XXG) invention that is not used by
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2212:) doesn't suggest it's a slam-dunk. Seemingly both forms are natural, just not equally so, whereas the proposed one is not at all consistent with like articles; as such, I think keeping the current title is the most sensible path.
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Although I appreciate the expansion of your argument, there is no real need to reiterate what you have already written in the nomination (which, if done repeatedly and in a disproportionate manner, may amount to
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wins the day in this case. The proposed title would be pretty glaringly out of step with all the like articles I see, among which the term "Franco" is rare to absent. These include articles in categories about
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more common than the current title" argument. Even if there was a strong consistency-based argument favoring the current title, I don't see how that could outweigh such an overwhelming COMMONNAME situation.
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no consensus that one pattern across all bilateral relations article currently exists on
Knowledge (XXG) that is so dominant that it is the be-all-end-all in every discussion on naming bilateral relations
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no consensus that one pattern across all bilateral relations article currently exists on
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consistency is one among five explicit criteria; evaluation of proposed titles must be weighed with respect to the strength of arguments made in light of the article titling policy as a whole.
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this reasoning is explicitly allowed by the close, and I don't see anything in the close explicitly forbidding one from using CONSISTENT as an argument in a
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can't be simply dismissed without discussion. Also, pinging the participants of that discussion who might want to weigh in on this similar discussion.
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On that basis, I would support "French-German border" over "Franco-German border", and "Franco-German border" over "France-Germany border".
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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In article title discussions, in the event of a lack of consensus the applicable policy preserves the most recent prior stable title
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The well attended RfC failed to find a consensus in favour of either consistent adjectival or nounal forms. As the closer said,
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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and that means that arguments that support a proposed title over another on the basis of consistency must be discounted.
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With conciseness, precision, and recognizability all similar, that just leaves naturalness, and the results of a quick
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The well attended RfC failed to find a consensus in favour of either consistent adjectival or nounal forms.
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Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
2300:. There are HUNDREDS upon HUNDREDS of articles that all follow this EXACT same article-title format in
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Since the RfC found that there is no consensus for that argument it should be discounted by the closer.
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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we have to consider all the criteria, and as such the current title seems the better option.
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By your same logic, by the way, the broader community does not accept your position either.
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argument vastly matched by the current title and vastly outweighted by the consistency
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Which doesn't impede one from making a consistency argument in light of all five
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If counts were the only factor we considered, I might do the same. However, per
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1682:. "France-Germany relations" doesn't even figure in English sources - see
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2472:. This was discussed recently and the consensus was against the move.
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policy. I'm not sure I understand where your disagreement comes from.
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establish that the broader community does not accept your position
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that clenches this discussion in favor of the current title for me
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discussion, but we'll see what the closer has to say about it.
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move request and converted to a multiple move request.
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due to the increased naturality of the proposed title
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There's only one oppose, and it's based entirely on
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This article has been checked against the following
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Geography articles with topics of unclear notability
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1819:It's a fact, per the evidence provided by the nom.
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1645:. The proposed article title would go against the
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1772:I am happy to clarify that it is my opinion that
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2540:Low-importance International relations articles
1690:whereas the proposal here is simply to use the
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2085:: Relisted as the result of a move review at
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1789:, is also worth qualifying as your opinion.
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481:Template:WikiProject International relations
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2393:The following is a closed discussion of a
2123:. CONSISTENT refers to following a common
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1817:is also worth qualifying as your opinion
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1406:European military history task force
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284:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Germany
207:It is of interest to the following
23:for discussing improvements to the
2108:Text of original closing statement
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1965:Or we can ask simply the closer,
1624:Good point, support as proposed.
1166:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Trade
620:WikiProject Geography To-do list:
50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome!
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2487:The discussion above is closed.
2377:The discussion above is closed.
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2018:Yes, I said that at the start:
1866:local discussions cannot either
1758:as a whole supports this move.
1547:) 21:15, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
1186:This article has been rated as
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1458:Requested move 15 October 2022
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2160:bilateral relations of France
1787:as a whole supports this move
1498:09:03, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
1160:and see a list of open tasks.
1080:Template:WikiProject Politics
1071:and see a list of open tasks.
966:and see a list of open tasks.
677:Unassessed geography articles
577:and see a list of open tasks.
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42:Put new text under old text.
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19:This is the
2405:move review
2312:BarrelProof
2225:Huwmanbeing
2037:WP:CRITERIA
1973:closure to
1929:mentality.
1899:WP:CRITERIA
1839:WP:CRITERIA
1809:WP:CRITERIA
1785:WP:CRITERIA
1778:WP:CRITERIA
1756:WP:CRITERIA
1750:, not just
1748:WP:CRITERIA
1719:WP:CRITERIA
1711:WP:BLUDGEON
1477:move review
1336:Structure:
960:Cartography
871:legal field
199:Start-class
148:free images
31:not a forum
2499:Categories
2184:of Germany
2164:of Germany
2125:consistent
1833:This is a
1725:. Cheers,
1696:Bermicourt
1552:Relisting.
1541:Bermicourt
858:Law portal
759:Notability
708:Listed at
2459:Pichemist
2419:King of ♥
2294:User:Elli
1486:Not moved
580:Geography
571:geography
527:Geography
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2130:36 times
1975:2022 RfC
1862:articles
1744:articles
1723:2022 RfC
1663:2022 RfC
1537:36 times
1297:criteria
1220:European
1074:Politics
1065:politics
1021:Politics
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2454:Signed,
2330:, and
2208:versus
1967:Mhawk10
1807:is the
1776:is the
1680:Comment
1602:Franco-
1575:en-dash
1573:, with
1571:Support
1190:on the
1101:on the
996:on the
903:on the
731:Infobox
689:Cleanup
607:on the
502:on the
413:on the
308:on the
281:Germany
272:Germany
228:Germany
154:WP refs
142:scholar
2474:Vpab15
2364:Vpab15
2352:Oppose
2320:Vpab15
2202:search
2151:Oppose
2117:Moved.
1997:, and
1917:, and
1781:reads
1643:Oppose
1535:about
1228:German
1224:French
662:Assess
386:France
377:France
333:France
205:scale.
126:Google
2332:Oculi
2272:WP:AT
2050:Pilaz
2046:WP:AT
2003:Pilaz
1983:WP:AT
1931:Pilaz
1923:WP:AT
1903:WP:AT
1891:WP:AT
1847:Pilaz
1843:WP:AT
1835:WP:AT
1791:Pilaz
1727:Pilaz
1688:WP:RS
1667:Pilaz
1604:is a
1163:Trade
1154:Trade
1126:Trade
787:Stubs
773:Photo
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
2478:talk
2368:talk
2354:per
2342:talk
2316:Elli
2292:per
2276:╠╣uw
2254:talk
2241:and
2214:╠╣uw
2182:and
2162:and
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2054:talk
2027:talk
2007:talk
1957:talk
1935:talk
1874:talk
1851:talk
1825:talk
1795:talk
1764:talk
1731:talk
1700:talk
1671:talk
1657:and
1630:talk
1616:talk
1587:talk
1560:talk
1545:talk
1494:talk
1488:.
969:Maps
958:and
956:Maps
928:Maps
792:See
778:See
764:See
750:See
736:See
722:See
694:See
679:and
653:and
649:See
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
2135:В²C
1901:of
1182:Low
1093:Low
988:Low
895:Low
876:Law
827:Law
745:Map
599:Low
494:Low
405:Mid
300:Mid
176:TWL
2501::
2480:)
2446:→
2397:.
2370:)
2326:,
2322:,
2318:,
2314:,
2256:)
2194:,
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