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Talk:Francis of Assisi/Archive 1

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1767:
person or persons to come up with a sources saying otherwise. If people question whether the event actually happened reliable sources should be easy to find saying that. They did not at anytime come up with anything saying it didn't happen. This isn't a place for original research or other items. I am not at a location right now where I can address all your items, but many of your items are taking things out of context, OR and not AGF. Just the sections talking about Bonaventure show an agenda. I said Bonaventure wasn't being used. I was correct. He is not the source that is being referenced. Whether other people use his account or not isn't what is being addressed. The complaint was about primary vs. secondary source. Primary would be Bonaventure, secondary is someone other then Bonaventure. Second I said he was a comtemporary. That is true. I didn't say he was a companion. That is two different things. He was alive when many of the people that were companions of St. Francis were still alive. Thus he could interview those people and get information from them. What it comes down to is much of what you are saying is OR. In order to insert anything you need a valid RS that calls the event in question. The original people did not provide anything. Pure and simple, provide what you want the changes to be with the appropriate sources. Right now this entire thing is only a couple of sentences in the entire article.
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are afraid to abandon the law of Mahomet for Christ’s sake, then light a big fire and I will go into it with your priests. That will show you which faith is more sure and more holy." To that the sultan replied, "I do not think that any of my priests would be willing to expose himself to the flames just to defend his faith, or suffer any kind of torture" (he had just caught a glimpse of one of his priests, an old and highly esteemed man, who slipped away the moment he heard Francis’ proposal). Then Francis continued, "If you are prepared to promise me that you and your people will embrace the Christian religion, if I come out of the fire unharmed, I will enter it alone. But if I am burned, you must attribute it to my sins; on the other hand, if God saves me by his power, you must acknowledge ‘Christ the power of God, Christ the wisdom of God’ (cf. 1 Cor 1, 24) as true God, the Lord and Savior of all." The sultan replied that he would not dare to accept a choice like that, for fear of a revolt among his people.
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conducive to consensus-building. All you have to do is to explain your point of view and support it in any way you can. Regarding choosing a painting simply because it was painted closer in time to when St. Francis lived does not mean it was an accurate depiction of him. This type of painting could be included in a gallery, though. I agree with Hafspajen that an image that shows St. Francis receiving the stigmata would be appropriate because he is known for that. Other considerations for the lead image are that it should be visually stunning, at least somewhat comprehensible to most readers, including children, and illustrative of his life and work. An image that looks like a Byzantine icon would not meet the second and third of these criteria. There are a number of paintings that would be good, but I like the current lead image.
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allowed Saint Francis to ride because he had a great honor and respect for his bother. However, Leonardo’s social standings got in the way. This caused a great divide in the family. Saint Francis was not able to keep a strong relationship with his brother although he made many attempts. His brother as well as many others had great concerns about the way he wanted to run their religious order. At the time his principals were unheard of and his brother did not think his way of running things would work. Francis departure from Italy changed him and his family for better or worse irreversibly. After a long absence many believed him to be dead. He went on to help many people in his life despite his falling out with his family. He suffered from ailments that proved to be very harmful to his health.
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could become a knight. The first way was the normal course of action for the son of a noble: When a boy was eight years old, he was sent to the neighboring castle where he was trained as a page. The boy was usually the son of a knight or of a member of the aristocracy. He spent most of his time strengthening his body, wrestling and riding horses. He also learned how to fight with a spear and a sword. He practiced against a wooden dummy called a quintain. It was essentially a heavy sack or dummy in the form of a human. It was hung on a wooden pole along with a shield. The young page had to hit the shield in its center. When hit, the whole structure would spin around and around. The page had to maneuver away quickly without getting hit (The Medieval knight, 2003).
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Francis in a characteristic gesture of generosity invited the knight to dinner and, before the evening was out, he had given the knight a whole new knight outfit. Francis joined Gentile on the expedition but it didn’t last very long. Francis had a dream the first day on the expedition. An unknown voice asked Francis where he wanted to go. When Francis explained his plans, the voice asked, who can do more good for you, the lord or the servant? Francis replied the lord; the voice told him he was abandoning the lord for the servant, the patron for the client. The voice told Francis to go back to his land and what he needs to do will be told to him later. Francis abandoned the expedition and went back home (Galli, 2002).
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but these were not acquired until 1934. Whether or not he was familiar with the iconography, Chesterton's version – minus the melodrama – is well attested: Sassetta's brief for the panels is dated 1439; Benozzo Gozzoli's frescos at S. Francesco, Montefalco were painted in 1452. In neither case, however, is there any justification for talk of Francis "fling himself into the fire" as Chesterton has it: Sassetta shows Francis advancing one foot into the fire whereas Gozzoli has the saint with both feet firmly inside. Chesterton theatrical heightening of an already heightened episode, together with the vague "some say", renders him useless as RS for this incident.
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adopted his teachings and began to spread the word of the lord. Catherine later changed her name to Agnes. She believed in his teachings so much she allowed physical harm to herself to promote his teachings. She was viciously dragged through the mud and beaten in the name of the lord. Saint Francis arranged for the two sisters, Clare and a friend of her mothers to stay permanently at San Domiano. He gave her the blessings and support she needed and with her families help she took on fifty nuns. As the group grew they became “sisters” and they began to spread his ways even further. He was an inspiration and with his help the word of the lord was spread.
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squire in service to a knight. His duties included dressing the knight in the morning, serving all of the knight’s meals, caring for the knight’s horse, and cleaning the knight’s armor and weapons. He followed the knight to tournaments and assisted his lord on the battlefield. A squire also prepared himself by learning how to handle a sword and lance while wearing forty pounds of armor and riding a horse. When he was about twenty, a squire could become a knight after proving himself worthy (The Medieval knight, 2003). Francis didn’t have to play the role of a squire his name alone got him in the position next to count Gentile.
3408: 3278: 1916:. The Franciscan role at the Holy Places is necessarily a Catholic one and has no reference to the various Orthodox Christian Churches represented there. The next question is: recognized by whom as "custodians"? Important concessions were granted to the Franciscans by the Mameluke Sultan in 1333 regarding (a) the Holy Sepulchre at Jerusalem and (b) in Bethlehem, but these were not exclusive of the claims of other non-Catholic Christians. In 1335 Christian donors purchased land on Mount Zion and the Franciscans rebuilt the ruined Cenacle. (on all this, see Tolan, pp.259ff) 3446: 3248: 3514: 3630: 3372: 3642: 1554:
alive in the 1100s. Many of the newer "sources" tend to rewrite history based on their particular want for St. Francis. They tend to turn him into a animal loving hippy when that is far from what he was. As for getting a college textbook view on this, I don't tend to have access to those types of sources. But the fact this event happened is in numerous contempory sources so I still don't see what the problem is. I honestly think more time should be spent on this article sourcing things that haven't been sourced.
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Anglican church recognizes many of the Saints that the Catholic church recognizes, especially those that were declared Saint before any splits. Just a quick search will reveal several Anglican churches named for St. Francis of Assisi. The difference between putting Anglican and putting "All Christians" is that most Christian churches don't recognize Saints period. They may recognize St. Francis as a holy man, but they don't "Venerate" him. Re-write what you want to add and keep it to just the facts.
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see that he knows no more than Jacques de Vitry of the proposal said to have been made by Francis to pass through a fire if the priests of Mahomet would do as much, intending so to establish the superiority of Christianity. We know how little such an appeal to signs is characteristic of St. Francis. Perhaps the story, which comes from Bonaventura, is born of a misconception. The sultan, like a new Pharaoh, may have laid it upon the strange preacher to prove his mission by miracles.
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best to follow the teachings of the lord. However, he was not known for his learning styles. He was never thought to be a well educated man and many thought he was unintelligent. He was a spoiled boy who got away with many things and eventually disowned his father. He took pride in the lord’s words and never gave up spreading his teachings. He believed that he should always try to make more of his life and commit himself to God. He refused to others stop him on his path to God.
3417: 3656: 1734:. . it was at that interview that he evidently offered, and as some say proceeded, to fling himself into the fire as a divine ordeal, defying the Moslem religious teachers to do the same. It is quite certain that he would have done so at a moment's notice. Indeed throwing himself into the fire was hardly more desperate, in any case, than throwing himself among the weapons and tools of torture of a horde of fanatical Mahometans and asking them to renounce Mahomet. 875: 1791:
removed unless some other valid and reliable source can be given, or unless it is recast as a legend (see below), or unless the article is put in balance by reference to criticisms of the historicity of the incident as made by, e.g., Sabatier. The article does not reference Bonaventure here although all accounts of the incident derive from him, so it is imperative to see how reliable he is. The article impliedly addresses his hagiographical bias under
1588:) Based on an IP editor's request I don't see a need to update something that is already sourced. Nothing has been called into question about the sources other then their age. No reliable source has been put forward that shows this didn't happen. It sounds like in your opinion the only source that would be allowed is a college textbook written by a secular author within the last couple years. I personally have never seen that requirement in 2835: 1099: 31: 3474: 2722: 3390: 1841:(the earliest source) rates no mention whatever, except under "Further reading", despite his being twice mentioned in the text as a contemporary and biographer of the saint. Furthermore, the list of "Books" and "Further reading" as compared with "Bibliography" is confusing, and the rating of items as among these three divisions is arbitrary, to say no more about it. Enough on the article as a whole. 3197: 4054:
belong in the "Early life" section :-)) but then comes a 6th paragraph evoking his father's reaction to his choices, without any time references... Also, the end sentence of the 3rd paragraph seems to imply that Francis' first interpretation of his vision didn't capture its full meaning, yet this has no follow-up within the section, or later on. I hope these remarks can be of use! (
4502:
contemporary followers such as Father Richard Rohr. Hence the focus is on Saint Francis's love of nature, his peace-making and poverty. Saint Francis's "spirituality" is transformed to reflect contemporary fashions, with virtually no reference ideas that underpinned the vows of chastity, poverty and obedience; namely, that penance and mortification are the pathway to Holiness.
1928:
conviction that Francis must have visited the Holy Places) became more and more developed until it reached its fullest and most definite expression (with abundant, and therefore suspect, circumstantiality) in the works of Juan de Calahorra in the 17th c. and Francisco JĂŠsus MarĂ­a de San Juan del Puerto in the 18th c. (see on all this Tolan, pp. 169 and 263-271)
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the Giotto illustration. I think some tidying up of "books" and references is called for, but I cannot attend to it for a few months. Also, the second pic illustrating the trial-by-fire (visually low-grade) ought to come out, making space for one depicting a different "episode". The deleted passage is reproduced here for reference:-
4234:. By this point, the Franciscan Order had grown to such an extent that its primitive organizational structure was no longer sufficient. He returned to Italy to organize the Order. Once his community was authorized by the Pope, he withdrew increasingly from external affairs. In 1223, Francis arranged for the first Christmas 1522:) but I have never seen any book call to question the details of the meeting with the Sultan. Right now all you have is a question from an IP editor, not even a statement from ANY source let alone a reliable source. Until you get ANY source that calls into question whether this happens this discussion is a mute point. 2414:
from these schools were grateful and enjoyed learning about Saint Francis in this manner. No other freely available video appears on the web about the life of Saint Francis that I could find. So including it here does add to general knowledge and appreciation. With this information, could you reconsider? Thank you,
2779:. The duties of the cardinals include attending the meetings of the College and making themselves available individually or in groups to the Pope as requested. Most have additional duties, such as leading a diocese or archdiocese or managing a department of the Roman Curia. A cardinal's other main function is 3876:
First let me say again that I like the image that is in the lead now (della Gatta). You don't have to change it on my account. You had asked earlier for alternates, so I picked out five from your gallery, above. If shape is a consideration, that would affect the choice, that's all. Of the five that I
3004:
Well no, the 13th century means the years of 1200-1299 and not the 1400s; And as i said before the most contemporary picture should be chosen due it being the most valid; There is a picture (fresco) of St. Francis in Subiaco which is contemporary in terms of life-time (his time of refuge there) which
2363:
When this play was viewed live, many parents, who are not Catholic, were deeply moved by it. They remarked that they never knew about these (or any) Catholic Saints and they gained an appreciation they previously did not have. The school Living Wisdom School is non-sectarian and is thus able to reach
1968:
Next, the trial-by-fire challenge, although occupying only two sentences in the wiki-article, bulks disproportionately large in the episode of the visit to the Sultan (almost one third of that paragraph, and constituting the essence of his "missiology") and even larger in the illustrations, since, of
1158:
I feel similarly in regards to Quin's point. Although if I refresh the article, it will be without the spiritual language. There are plenty of hagiographies out there, and this is an encyclopedia. If I go to far in a change or not far enough, I hope that someone will discuss it here first and not
979:
Saint Francis of Assisi had many followers through out his life. He was admired by many and lived a life of service for the lord. He gave up many of his belonging and turned to god and nature. It is believed that Saint Francis had a special relationship with God but was in fact very human. He did his
569:
There's an interesting paragraph in Steven Runciman's "A History of the Crusades 3" CUP, 1954, about Francis' visit to the Sultan. It says that he was escorted under flag of truce to Fariskur, where the Muslim guards were suspicious at first, but then decided that anyone so, simple, so gentle and so
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in September. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, he was keeping "a forty days fast in preparation for Michaelmas". Also, the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross is and always has been September 14. The Catholic Encyclopedia merely says that the vision which resulted in the stigmata occurred "on
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Well for your information, almost 25 years ago, a Catholic friend gave my parents, a statue of Saint Francis that is still in our garden, not being Catholic, my mom always had to tell me as a child, who Francis was and what he represented(animals, the birds, the enviroment,etc).--Hailey 18:53, 16 May
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Just to reiterate to a recent editor who changed 1181/1182 to 1181 - it is currently unclear based on the best available historical information whether he was born in 1181 or 1182. Tradition usually gives his year of birth as 1182, and if we had to specify only one year that would be the preferable,
4365:
With this sentence, we get way ahead of the events of his early life. After this, it returns to the events of his early life and proceeds in chronological order. So, either we should just remove this passage or, if it is not mentioned later (I didn't study the rest in order to find out), place it in
4288:
I think it is fine to remove it. All the stuff is covered in other sections. The trip to Egypt and his death doesn't belong in the "Early Life" section. Everything in that paragraph is covered in the correct corresponding sections of the article. Whether a better summary should be in the lead is
3025:
True, it is the other way round, but that's only my bad math. My art history is on the other hand quite fine. I don't agree at all that the oldest pictures should be displayed, but the best quality depiction available. And considering that it has been a non stop messing around with the lead pictures
2641:
OK; as usual, you revert me, John, and editwar. Also you reverted me for the third time. You always make conflicts with me, wherever I am, because you always seem to think you know everyrhing better. I was working on that gallery a lot. I am the one who illustrated this article. I think the gallery
2449:
I pulled this section out of the talk archive because people continue to change St. Francis' death date. Whoever keeps changing Francis' death date from October 3rd to October 4th, Francis actually died on October 3rd. The reason his feast day is on the fourth is due to early church ideas of dealing
1976:
I have already given reasons why the currently-cited reference (a brief notice in chapter 8 of Chesterton's "slight sketch" or "little book" as he called it himself) is unacceptable as a reliable source, and that credible authority (Sabatier, still the leading scholarly work) long ago rejected it as
1647:
and the encounter with the Sultan Malik-el-Kamil camped outside Damietta are not in dispute, being sufficiently well-established by a contemporary chronicler, Jacques de Vitry (bishop of Acre, who was present in the Crusader camp); and it is he (along with Celano) who must be the primary sources for
1305:
I'm picking up on strange, subtle anti-Catholic, pro-Anglican editing practices...combined with vaguely anti-confessional tendencies. I have no problem with Wiki being rather 'secular' or 'agnostic' in its approach to subject matter, but when we're dealing with someone famed for his Catholicism and
1045:
The young man was also taught more civilized topics. He would be taught to read and write by a schoolmaster. He could also be taught some Latin and French. The lady of the castle taught the page to sing and dance and how to behave in the king’s court. At the age of fifteen or sixteen, a boy became a
987:
Although, Saint Francis’s brother was not one of his many admirers there has been tell of a story where his own brother, Leonardo allowed Saint Francis to ride on the back of a donkey while he walked. He believed in his brothers teachings and loved the way his brother inspired other people. Leonardo
4511:
To achieve this end, Francis is reported to have used flagellation and a hairshirt (a garment of rough cloth made from goats' hair and worn in the form of a shirt or as a girdle around the loins, a Catholic encyclopedia informs us) for his penance. To defend his purity St Francis is alleged to have
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In practice this meant warfare against his own body, its senses and its appetites. According to the still wide spread Catholic belief, without mortification of the senses, our desires will remain unruly and our rebellious will shall not conform to the will of God. Mortification was crucial to the
2047:
Objections to the appositeness, sufficiency, and reliability of the existing sources cited in this part of the article can be extended:- for example, the statement that the Sultan permitted Francis to preach to his subjects as a result of the impression made on him by the trial-by-fire challenge is
1964:
We notice first of all that the article entry is self-contradictory. Francis' visit to Sultan al-Kamil is situated in what is said to be an "attempted rapprochement with the Muslim world", but the previous presentation (including especially the alleged challenge to trial-by-fire) is by no means an
1884:
The reference to the Franciscans as " 'Custodians of the Holy Land' on behalf of Christianity" is doubly erroneous. In fact, there is but one "Custos of the Holy Land", which is the official name of the head of the Friars Minor living in the entire Near East (taken to include Cyprus and Rhodes, but
1766:
and do not personalize discussions. Second you are opening up a 2 month old discussion and inflecting many things that were not discussed in the original discussion. Pure and simple, there were sources saying the event happened. None of the sources were primary sources. It was up to the original
1482:
When the sultan saw his enthusiasm and courage, he listened to him willingly and pressed him to stay with him. Francis, however, was inspired by God to reply, "If you are willing to become converts to Christ, you and your people, I shall be only too glad to stay with you for love of him. But if you
1301:
Also, in the side bar, under "venerated by" the Anglican Communion is listed. That's tenuous. One might as well say 'all Christians' for I'm sure you could find Christians of every stripe who venerate or respect or like St. Francis. The more solid truth is that veneration of the saints is almost
1142:
There is a LOT of reliance here on G.K. Chesterton's biography/hagiography of Francis. This is a quite dated work now, lacks all the recent scholarship and was written for purposes other than transmitting an accurate biography. He was, as he himself claimed, writing a spiritual work. It might be
1016:
Is there a reason for this section to be added to the talk page? If the intent is to get consensus and add it to the main page there are several things that need cited and a few things that aren't correct (i.e. Francis didn't turn to God and nature, just to God, the love of nature came from loving
4349:
Francis returned home, began preaching on the streets, and soon gathered followers. His Order was authorized by Pope Innocent III in 1210. He then founded the Order of Poor Clares, which became an enclosed religious order for women, as well as the Order of Brothers and Sisters of Penance (commonly
2408:
I did read both WP:ELNO & WP:TY before linking and did not see an issue myself. The school does have permission from parents. It is a normal procedure for any non-profit, private school to get signed approval for use of pictures, videos, ... that include their children. Yes approval for use of
2127:
With broad encouragement from Marauder40 (to whom many thanks), I have today replaced the previous text with the text posted on my user page and made some consequential alterations (stylistic and to avoid duplication) to other parts of the section. I have also added "alleged" to the caption under
2043:
compiled in 1246 by brothers Leo, Rufino and Angelo (intimate contemporaries of the saint) who explained that they had consulted other companions - naming brother Illuminato and five others - and that they declined to repeat the same material others had dealt with, but had, rather, concentrated on
1973:
Muslims continue to be tense in many parts of the world, marred by mutual suspicion and the burden of history) requires the historicity of the trial-by-fire challenge to be subjected to particular scrutiny. The fact that this probable slur is propagated in a mere two sentences does not excuse it.
1738:
Chesterton gives no hint of who is hidden under the hopelessly vague "as some say". My first thought was that he must have known of the series of panels by Sassetta in the National Gallery in London which show scenes from the life of St. Francis including the trial-by-fire panel (acq. n° NG4761),
1712:
As to the interviews between Francis and the sultan, it is prudent to keep to the narratives of Jacques de Vitry and William of Tyre. Although the latter wrote at a comparatively late date (between 1275 and 1295), he followed a truly historic method, and founded his work on authentic documents; we
1041:
You can say that Francis was privileged in being a knight because becoming a knight is not something anyone could just willingly do. Francis’s father didn’t feel like Francis had to be a knight he felt he would be fine working with him with his fabrics. There were only a few ways in which a person
983:
In his lifetime he inspired many people and they took on his beliefs. One of the many people he inspired was Clare di Favarone. She adopted his teachings and began to spread his message and beliefs. She even became inspired her sisters and a friend of her mothers to join her in his practices. They
926:
Whoever keeps changing Francis' death date from October 3rd to October 4th, Francis actually died on October 3rd. The reason his feast day is on the fourth is due to early church ideas of dealing with vigils and starts of days. Francis died on the evening of October 3rd. Many Franciscan churchs
508:
There are other details which don't correspond. Someone (an anon) has changed the location of the vision from La Verna to Isola Maggiore. I am changing it back. Also, in the statement "… Thomas told a crowd of Franciscans that he had witnessed this account" the article doesn't say who "Thomas" is.
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by Mark Galli, "Francis was never much of a student; he barely learned to read and write, and always preferred to be read to. He wrote even less. As an adult he was considered 'a man without learning', meaning he never undertook advanced studies in theology or law." I would be grateful if we could
4516:
The article gives almost no sense at all of the actual form of spirituality that dominated and gave direction to Saint Francis's life. It is a travesty of the Catholic understanding that informed St Francis's life and the lives of those who imitated him, adopting his vows of chastity, poverty and
2490:
I note that, shortly after Pope Francis' election inserted 'di Pietro' into Francis' baptismal name. It was never there before and there is no source for it. Indeed, the Catholic Encyclopedia says his name was simply Giovanni. Evidently this is a conspiracy theorist attempting to connect the new
2413:
Again I think having this link will serve some people, who would not otherwise learn about Saint Francis from just reading. Younger audiences in particular could benefit. During the play, several Catholic private schools sent their students to view the performance. Both the teachers and students
2147:
first, under the condition that if he left the fire unharmed, the sultan would have to recognize Christ as the true God, the sultan was so impressed that he allowed Francis to preach to his subjects. The sultan was impressed enough to give Francis permission to visit the sacred places in the Holy
1553:
Bonaventure isn't the source used in the article. Bonaventure is just the first person to mention the events. The sources in the article are Chesterton and Paul Sabatier. They aren't new sources (1924 and 1894), but just because it is newer doesn't make it a better source for a person that was
1340:
You need to remember that everything you add needs to be NPOV, statements like "arguably the greatest and most widely popular" don't really fit in with NPOV. If you can get a reliable source that says the same thing, you may be able to put it in the article. As to whether Anglican belongs. The
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I believe the structure of this section can be improved. The 4th paragraph ("Francis' father was Pietro di Bernardone", etc) repeats facts that have already been stated in the previous paragraphs. Then the 5th paragraph ("In 1219, he went to Egypt" etc) ends with his death (which perhaps doesn't
3907:
That's an interesting possibility. To be honest, I prefer stability. When I see the image, I know I'm at the right article, and if it's an image I really like, I enjoy seeing it each time I go to the article. If there is a consensus that change is desired, is there a way to change the lead image
3568:
The picture you mentioned as it would be good to have in the gallery - is already in the gallery. It was picked up from the gallery and put in the lead (and in the main while left in the gallery too, thus becaming a duplicate). If you think there are any pictures that are visually stunning,
3549:
Hafspajen began this discussion appropriately by saying, "Let's decide what we want and stick with it," inviting other editors to participate in the decision-making. Agilulf2007, by responding, "What is there to discuss? What discussion do you wish to have?", you are injecting a tone that is not
1988:
Nor is Bonaventure reliable on this episode, which he continued to elaborate. In a sermon preached on 4 October 1267, he went so far as to say that the Sultan secretly converted – a new and inherently improbable embellishment which further diminishes his credibility as an authentic source on an
1790:
but reliability. The article at this point references only Chesterton, who is clearly unreliable on this incident and is far from being the best source. Sabatier cannot be substituted because he says the opposite of what he would be cited in support of. On that basis alone the passage must be
1785:
Well the last thing I want is a squabble here. I commented on your response to fair comment by two editors which seems to have closed a useful line of inquiry that might have improved the article. Your new comment does not address my points regarding the text of the article on which we need to
1486:
As to the other questions, it all depends on which source you read on how it treats it. Bonaventure was a contemporary of St. Francis so he is a pretty good source. The information in the article is already validly sourced via other sources and provides references. To put any other theories in
1187:
Part of his appreciation of the environment is expressed in his Canticle of the Sun, a poem written in Umbrian Italian in perhaps 1224 which expresses a love and appreciation of Brother Sun, Sister Moon, Mother Earth, Brother Fire, etc. and all of God's creations personified in their fundamental
4213:
The lead is the first part of the article that most people will read, and for many, it may be the only section read. A good lead section cultivates the reader's interest in reading more of the article, but not by teasing the reader or hinting at content that follows. Instead, the lead should be
4028:
I made a change which was reverted by one user, who said it wouldn't be sourced. He replied that in this article the name is also unsourced. So either the name here becomes deleted or it becomes added to the Prophecy of the Popes as a connection to the current "pope" Francis, who is there being
2962:
The image you chose was 200 years after his death too, he was born 1181 or 1182 - died 1226. 13th century means the years 1400 . But that's really not a good argument. When choosing a lead image of a like him, a saint that is depicted this often by the best painters of the art history, being
2937:
What is there to discuss? What discussion do you wish to have? The image i am in favor of is simply more contemporary. In case you dont know what that means, it means it is closer in time to the actual person i.e. the 13th century instead of the current picture/image which is 250years after his
2399:
The link falls under WP:ELNO and WP:YT. Also I would like to ask if you have the permission of all the parents of the kids in the play to post this on a site clearly with larger access then just a school web-site, and the permission of the copyright holders of the play. My bet is you don't have
1927:
began two years before the Damietta encounter, for brother Elias had established a presence in Syria in 1217 (see the link to para. 6.47 on a Franciscan webpage above in the previous comment). That there was a causal relation was first stated in the 14th c. and the idea (united with the devout
1049:
Though not yet a knight, Francis insisted on looking like one, which cost his father a small fortune, sporting a coat of mail, a helmet, sword, a lance with its pennant and flowing robe. As Francis was making ready for his with Gentile he ran across a bedraggled knight with a threadbare outfit.
2975:
doesn't use any contemporary image either. There is an image of a fresco depicting him made when he was alive, but that image is good were it is - it has EV- but it is not a lead image quality. One has to strive to chose the best possible depiction available that captures the person's essence.
1972:
Finally, it must be recognised that the entire incident is provocative and derogatory to the Muslim scholars who are presented as cowards in the face of Francis' challenge which they effectively concede ("but retreated"). This consideration (not least because relations between Christians and
537:
I'm interested in the fact that when Francis returned to the Crusaders after being among the Muslim armies he was labelled a heretic and the Sultan had to intercede to save him. How did this happen? I would have thought a Sultan wouldn't have much sway with the Crusaders. Can anyone elucidate?
1836:
draw attention to some other disputable statements and imprecisions in it which demand a full-scale revision of this section. I say nothing for now about the remainder of the article which, however, reads more as a quasi-devotional work than an encyclopedia entry and oscillates between frank
1623:
Two editors raised a good question here about the credibility of the sources relied on for the trial-by-fire legend which Marauder has unfairly (I think) and, in some respects, incorrectly responded to. I accept that Marauder is presenting a case by reference to what the anonymous editor(s)
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I would side with Marauder's initial assessment on this. Since WP:YT puts high standards on youtube and such sites (eg vimeo), it would be better not to include this in the ELs. Moreover, I'm sceptical that the site passes the first criterion of links normally to be avoided at WP:EL. Younger
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The Franciscan's religious vows in the form of the three evangelical counsels of chastity, poverty, and obedience, are not adequately dealt with in this article. The article is a reconstruction of Saint Francis's life to reflect the twenty first century version of Saint Francis invented by
1361:
From the infobox I removed that he is the patron Saint of San Francisco, the Archdiocese of San Francisco, the Philipeans, etc. I figured the actual list of every city, country, etc. that he is the patron saint of is to large for an infobox. If someone wants to add the information to the
1461:
The critic has a point. What's our best RS saying that this happened, and what evidence is it based on? Do commonly accepted reference texts treat the trial by fire as a story or as history? If you read a college history textbook about Francis, what would it say about the trial by fire?
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way Saint Francis attempted to advance in the life of holiness. Impure lusting after sex and the temptations of money were to be resisted by poverty and chastity. The ultimate aim was to tame the desires of our body, through mortification, and become an obedient follower of God's will.
2585:(edit conflict) It looks more like a "gold" colour to me, but it certainly does clash horribly with the colours in Francisco de ZurbarĂĄn's painting. It may be easier to change the painting than the colour of the infobox, however, since that gold seems to be an inalterable part of 1517:
I have read many books about St. Francis both modern, not so modern, some critical, some not so critical. Not a single one doubts the meeting with the Sultan took place. Some modern books doubt certain stories about St. Francis actually took place (i.e. some mentioned in the
3793:, the fresco of Subiaco is/could be an actual portrait) but is simply more representative for the actual time itself; buildings, attire, contemporary essence and perception etc.; However seeing how much effort you/Hafspajen put into the article i will agree with your format; 2685:
that claimed that exist an ongoing struggle between the forces of good and evil in the universe. It is also an eclectic religion that attempted to provide a synthesis of previous religious teachings. Its founder, Mani, claimed to be the final prophet for all religions. The
483:
Now, I don't know enough to say if Lent was different back then, but I don't think Lent was in September. Do these two times perhaps come from different stories about when St. Francis received the Stigmata? I just wanted some clarification and change to the article if
3032:- not in the same way many of the painting below. I have been editing this article for a long time now and I am kinda fed up with this disruption. I think your picture is not the best picture depicting Francis, best resolution, best quality and the best we can have. 2356:
It is a link to a play about the life of Saint Francis and Saint Clare of Assisi. Many people can learn more about a subject by watching videos of the material than through just reading. Video can also communicate the information with a deeper feeling of inspiration.
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Land. Francis's visit to Egypt and attempted rapprochement with the Muslim world had far-reaching consequences, long past his own death, since after the fall of the Crusader Kingdom it would be the Franciscans, of all Catholics, who would be allowed to stay on in the
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His father's name was Pietro. 'Di Pietro' goes with the custom of the time to be know by your father's name in addition to your own name. Directly from the Catholic Encyclopedia "His father, Pietro Bernardone, was a wealthy Assisian cloth merchant." No conspiracy
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If the incident is to stay at all (and it hardly bulks large in the scheme of things) the correct sources must be given, and a proper qualification added showing that the incident is far from being historically proven and rests squarely on the shaky foundation of
1536:
Aw, don't be that way. The point's not moot because the discussion tells us whether we have any cause to look for a better source. In Bonaventure's account is our best source, then maybe we should look for a better source, like a college-level history textbook.
2011:
The results of efforts, however, were those of a theologian in touch with the currents of mystical theology of his time. The virtues of Francis, while described through the anecdotes of Thomas and Julian, are presented in orderly, theological fashion. Both
959:
An editor added that Clare was best friends with St. Francis. As far as I know the exact relationship of Clare was never defined as "best friends". "Friends" maybe but not "best friend". I reverted it to allow the editor to either provide a cite or redo the
1721:- i.e., one credibly casting doubt on the historicity of the legend - which Marauder challenges other editors to provide (I draw a veil over Marauder's unreasonable and illogical demand that an editor provide a source proving that something did not happen). 2048:
supported by neither Chesteron nor Sabatier (the sources cited for it in the text); nor is any such claim to be found in da Celano or in any of the primary sources, nor, even, in Bonaventure. It is, I imagine, unnecessary to pursue this theme further.
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Well, Latin was not anymore spoken even during the last centuries of the Roman Empire. In 1182, when San Francesco was born, the spoken language in Assisi was a lot closer to the modern Italian than to the ancient Latin. --Folini 18:30, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
1823:
This is a three-part post which I shall stagger. Dissatisfaction with the treatment of the trial-by-fire challenge related in the fourth paragraph in the "Missions work" section of the article has already been made by me and others (see above). Before
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We can see here the seeds from which later embellishment can all too easily grow. De Vitry had not, however, mentioned this episode in a letter written in September 1219, when the event was fresh. On de Vitry's material, see chapter 1 of John V. Tolan,
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The reference to the Franciscans "of all Catholics, who would be allowed to stay on in the Holy Land" erroneously presupposes that the Franciscans were never excluded, and invites the false inference that non-Catholic Christians were not affected: see
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Is there a reason for this section to be added to the talk page? If the intent is to get consensus and add it to the main page there are several things that need cited and the section on the process of becoming a knight isn't really needed in this
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Having gone so far on this route (through ignorance of a better way) I shall finish what I set out to do, but in more economic format. My proposed re-write of the relevant part of the section of the article criticised by me above, can be found at
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would be even better; Other than that i can only recommend to use the most contemporary picture of any saint for any saint instead of a 'hundred years' later imaginary projection; A good example would be St. Ambrose on wiki; Thus my vote goes to
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Clearly, the bulk of the assertions in this part of the article - and the existing source references purporting to support them - are inadequate and even defective from several angles. These considerations, as well as the remarks made under
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Francis had ambitions of becoming a knight. Francis heard that an Assisi count named Gentile was preparing to leave for Apulia to engage in another battle between church and empire. Francis convinced Gentile to let him join him (Galli, 2002).
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I didn't say there aren't any contemporary sources. All you have to do is do a search for "St. Francis sultan fire" on the internet and you will find hundreds. I have read several. There are entire books written about this encounter (i.e.
1869:) but is contradicted by remarks made by Ludolf von Sudheim who was on pilgrimage there between 1336 and 1341 (quoted in Tolan, p.262). As it happens, Fr. O'Brady makes no reference in his Britannia article to the trial-by-fire challenge. 2850:
The lead image has been changed for various reasons around five times at least in the last couple of month. I will add some possible images here and let's decide what we want and stick with it. There are so many great artworks about him.
1690:., chapter 13) an almost contemporary letter from de Vitry (sent in almost identical form in February or March 1220 to three recipients, including the Pope whose version did not include the encounter with the Sultan at all) as follows:- 4008:
Prophecy of the Popes allegedly published by Benedictine monk Arnold Wion in 1595... Several historians have concluded that the prophecies are a late 16th‑century forgery. W can't use it as a source for removal of Francis birth name.
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the seven depictions of St. Francis in the entire article, two depict a trial-by-fire actually in process, which (lacking as it does any adequate historical support or even some iconographical commentary) is seriously misleading.
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supplying what others had omitted. They said nothing about any trial-by-fire challenge, although it is Illuminato whom Bonaventure was the first to name (in 1263) as the friar who had accompanied Francis into the Saracen camp.
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There is an interesting film about Francis called "Brother Son, Sister Moon," that highlights many of the documented accounts of Francis, with a groovy soundtrack by Donovan! I think it's worthy to be added to this article.
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dirty must be mad. They treated him with the resect due to a man touched by God. The Sultan was charmed by him, but was too kind and too highly civilised to allow him to go through with an ordeal by fire and sent him back.
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Most of the sources I came across could not define beyond 1181 and 1182 (including Encyclopedia Britanicca) however there may be a need to cross reference the super nova observed in 1181 with records of St Francis' birth
1935:, as to which we know precisely nothing. It seems he was in Syria for eight months, but whether he was sick or busy, or where (if anywhere) he went, the primary sources do not say, and the rest is conjecture (Sabatier, 1730:(1924). This went one further than Bonaventure – which only goes to prove how effortlessly legends acquire accretions. In chapter 8, Chesterton melodramatically wrote of the interview with the Sultan in these terms:- 4517:
obedience: for these friars, penance and mortification played the key role in enabling them to become a truly Holy follower of Christ, obedient not to the flesh and its desires, but obedient only to the will of God. (
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this episode in the saint's life. Neither of them mentions any trial-by-fire proposal by Francis to demonstrate the truth of Christianity and the falsity of Islam. Trials-by-ordeal (of which this trial-by-fire was
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I'm confused. My introduction gives a solid overview of the importance of Francis (the previous - and now current - is so vague as to leave one unenlightened as to his importance. Why are my changes being rejected?
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I am STRONGLY in the favor of an image representing Francis getting his stigmata, because this is made so special. Don't favor much skulls and morbid stuff like that, children are also watching the encyclopedia.
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out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards,
3226: 1219:) reference "Canticle of the Creatures" as the source of the quote "All praise to you, Oh Lord, for all these brother and sister creatures." However, in every text of this canticle that I've found online (see 1178:
Apologies, because I am not a frequent wiki contributor. I couldn't find out how to best discuss/dispute this content, so I thought I'd start here. There are a few possible inaccuracies in this section of the
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with vigils and starts of days. Francis died on the evening of October 3rd. Many Franciscan churchs and monasterys have Transitus services on October 3rd to celebrate his death (transition to the afterlife.)
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the argument for the current lead image, or, if a different image is desired, another equally stunning, illustrative image. I was going to leave that to you, Agilulf and others, but since you asked, perhaps:
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For days together announced the word of God to the Saracens, but with little success; then the sultan, King of Egypt, asked him in secret to entreat God to reveal to him, by some miracle, which is the best
74:
Can anyone tell me, what's the source of September 26, 1181 as St. Francis' date of birth? Other Knowledge articles just say 1181/1182, as do a lot of trustworthy books and sources about St. Francis, e.g.
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Wasn't to clear there: I think it should stand in the lead, because I think they were probably parts of it before they slided downwards - and got embedded in other texts. So I moved it UPP; INTO THE LEAD.
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I wonder why the account of his death is included in "Early Life". Also, after the mention of his death, the narrative double back to some vague conflict with his father. The chronology is out-of-whack.--
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Sorry for this long explanation. If the deleting editor is from the Catholic faith, I do believe having this video linked will help viewers learn about and more importantly appreciate these great Saints.
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The first appearance that I know of the visit with the Sultan was in the book about St. Francis that was commisioned/written by St. Bonaventure, the Major Life of St. Francis. It is mentioned in Chapter
4636:, the question was raised about whether the content currently in that article that refers to St. Francis of Assisi is accurate. Does anyone editing this page have the expertise to judge? Please reply at 4223:
The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points,
3332: 1965:"attempted rapprochement"; rather it is an attempt to convert the Sultan by the strength of Francis' own convictions, alternatively by a miracle (or coup-de-thÊâtre, depending on how you view it). 1268:. Born to a rich nobleman, he eventually rejected all material belongings and lived a life a strict austerity, selfless charity, and absolute submission to Christ. He was the first to receive the 1989:
episode which he evidently milked for its spiritual value with scant regard for the facts (a trajectory which finds its nadir of unhistorical pietism in chapter 24 of the extremely popular 14th c.
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I think its surprising that the location of his mortal remains has not been mentioned. His remains currently rest in Goa, India in the Basilica of Bom Jesus. Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong.
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either, especially the copyright holders of the play used. As it says in WP:YT, most vid sites don't meet requirements for posting in external links.Marauder40 (talk) 19:36, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
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is manifestly hagiographical as can be seen from the earliest pages (chapter 1.1) where he refuses to accept that Francis' youth (candidly described by Celano) had been spent in flesh-pots.
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The article implies that "Canticle of the Sun" and "Canticle of the Creatures" are two separate works of St. Francis, however, I've not been able to verify such. In fact, my searches (see
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an invention by Bonaventure - largely because of the lack of any reference to the challenge in the primary sources but also because of its inherent unlikelihood. See also, Paul Moses,
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appropriate section in the article itself they can, but it needs to be worded in a way that someone doesn't start adding every church, school, etc. that he is a patron of to the list.
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Do any Franciscan experts here have more sources, links, stories to follow this please? If so, it will be worth adding to this page anyway. Please post ideas/suggestions here. Thanks.
2589:. If the colour in the template design were to be changed it would affect every Knowledge article on a saint, and who knows what colours appear in the artworks illustrating them all?— 2531:
San Francesco, in fact, would have appeared on a carriage of fire that was flying above Rivotorto when in reality he was in Assisi waiting for an audience of the Bishop Guido II....?
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Did St. Francis have a Personal motto that he passed on to the orders founded and continuing to this day in his name ?17:11, 21 October 2010 (UTC)17:11, 21 October 2010 (UTC)~~
3316: 1675:). Even Bonaventure, however, presented the same episode with radically different variations in its later re-telling (a sermon of 4 October 1267 and Collatio XIX, 1273). The 479:
While he was praying on the mountain of Verna, during a forty day fast for Lent, Francis received the :Stigmata on September 13, 1224, the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross
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Finally, on Bonaventure (who was 2 years old when Francis died and was neither a companion nor even a contemporary of his), we cannot ignore the negative evidence of the
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Your introduction is too "devotional", I would say. All content needs to be verifiable and fact-y, which the status quo does a better job of than does your your version.
3347: 2007:, and the *latest authoritative collection of Franciscan texts similarly downplays its historical reliability: see, e.g., p. 18 of the General Introduction where we read 1643:
a contemporary of Francis and knew him) was written twenty years after the saint's death. The historicity of Francis' mission to Egypt in 1219 in the middle of the
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I feel as if this entire article is made up. Especially the donating to cub scouts... when were the cub scouts even invented? these are things we need to focus on!
1865:, but fails to reproduce Fr. O'Brady's careful qualification "some say". This alleged permit is first noticed in the sources a century after Francis' death (in the 3259: 1272:. He was wildly popular during his lifetime and inspired a huge resurgence of religious devotion. He founded the Order of Friars Minor, more commonly known as the 3683: 2360:
Many people will view a video on a subject, but will not read at length about a subject. So a video helps spread communication in ways that written words cannot.
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talk page, I thought it might be better to leave this question at this highly-watched article. Hoping for expert help from a more experienced editor. Regards,
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Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “
1704:, Oxford University Press (2009) cited in the references section in the article but not, seemingly, resorted to on the incident. Sabatier adds that in his 3214: 3187: 1861:
The claim that the Sultan "was impressed enough to give Francis permission to visit the sacred places in the Holy Land" cites Fr. O'Brady OFM in a concise
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What if we set up something that has the image selected randomly from a set every time the page loads? I think it's been done in some articles before. —
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Well, my point was simply the 'more' contemporary angle; It is correct that a 'more' contemporary picture does not imply an actual portrait (although,
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in this article, I am not particularity happy about these complains about the lead picture. This is a low quality scan and not a great artwork either,
2752:. He probably would never been made Pope, if still Archbishop. (speculation) Either way he was cardinal before becaming pope. The article is correct. 1902: 1708:(1223-1225) de Vitry again relates Francis' sermon before the Sultan, and then Sabatier immediately suggests the trial-by-fire incident is a legend:- 619:
The bibliography cites the old Catholic Enc. and mostly Chesterton's biography. Surely this could be better sourced, and therefore richer and deeper.
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better to source this in either the very early biographies (e.g Thomas of Celano) or some more recent scholarly text - perhaps Lawrence Cunningham?
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Next, Marauder most strangely denies that St. Bonaventure is the source for the trial-by-fire incident when it is precisely Bonaventure who is the
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I added a section on 'other faiths' to the article. I hope it all checks out. If not, let's discuss. Maybe other people would like to add to it?--
3490: 3398: 2972: 1686:, 1894; Eng. trans. London, 1919) as a reliable secondary source. Sabatier is peculiarly ill-chosen for this particular incident for he quotes ( 3445: 3277: 361:
No, St. Francis never made it across the Mediterranean. He did attempt to negotiate between the sultan of Egypt & the Crusaders, however.
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How can this Category be verified? I did check user Tachs contribution page and see hundreds of this same category addition. Before contacting
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or that is displayed in the gallery here was not the one i edited and was in favor for - they are similar but it was this one(Article/History:
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have sources backing the claim that Francis had a great education. If not forthcoming within a month, I shall change the article accordingly.--
1801:
The first reference after that sentence is to Bonaventure. Speculation as to who he might have talked with about this incident is irrelevant.
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of cub scouts. I haven't seen a reliable source for the recent addition of this fact. It doesn't mean the rest of the article is "made up".
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He did: Deus Meus et Omnia (My God and My All); although it is more accurate to say they picked it up from him rather than him passing it on.
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A cardinal (Latin: sanctae romanae ecclesiae cardinalis, literally cardinal of the Holy Roman Church) is a senior ecclesiastical leader, an
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Vittorio Messori claims that Francis served as a military chaplain in the 5th Crusade. Someone who knows more than I should address this...
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reveal the hand of a teacher entrusted with the responsibility of developing in his students a love of the spiritual life of their founder.
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rolled naked in the snow, and thrown himself into thorn bushes. His wish to become a martyr is all part of this desire for mortification.
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I agree with the problem, I think removing one entire paragraph from the "early life" section fixes it. If anyone disagrees, let me know.
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The Sultan's name needs to be conformed to the standard "al-Kamil"; see, e.g., the caption to the fifth illustration and the wiki-article
872:
I'm afraid you are wrong. His remains are in the crypt of the Lower Basilica of St. Francis, Assisi, Italy, as can be seen on this photo
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07:11, 1 June 2015‎ Tachs (talk | contribs)‎ . . (63,518 bytes) (+45)‎ . . (added Category:People on Indian postage stamps using HotCat)
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I've added a couple of lines regarding the origin of the pet name 'Francesco'. I was surprised not to see this in the original article.
3531: 3205: 2471: 555: 445: 286: 2143:. Francis challenged the Muslim scholars to a test of true religion by fire; but they retreated. When Francis proposed to enter the 1447:
Doesn't really matter what you think because unless you have a reliable source to back it up you are just stating original research.
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I know nothing about this, but I'm just curious. Is a portrait-shaped image better for a lead image than a landscape-shaped image?
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should be packed, because I plan adding more pictures. There is no reason whatsoever for not packing it. They do fit. Thank you.
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Thanks for pointing that out.There was some confusion in my mind.Its actually St. Francis Xavier whose remains are in Goa, India.
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None of the earliest biographies have any reference to the date of his birth and nor did officials keep such records at this time
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admission of "hagiographic legend" and uncritical acceptance of, e.g., Chesterton as a leading authority – 20 citations, whereas
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anyone noticed how no arab/muslim sources cite that such an event too place? I seriously question the authenticity of this.
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The article claims that Francis was meditating on Ps 140 (141) in one section, and Ps 141 (142) in another. Which was it?
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copyright was given. As a board member myself, I discussed it with the School Director. The school is the copyright holder.
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forms. In "Canticle of the Creatures," he wrote: "All praise to you, Oh Lord, for all these brother and sister creatures."
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in 1215 the Church had prohibited (canon 19) the use of any Christian rite from being associated with the ordeal: see the
1519: 911: 858: 719:, months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide 4203:. The lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important contents. It is not a news-style 3713:
Great!! No I wasn't misinterpreting it, I understood everything. I litterally meant what I said, I wanted some examples.
3088:
While not the perfect solution, the separate article idea would allow expansion there without cluttering up this article.
2775:, and usually an ordained bishop of the Roman Catholic Church. The cardinals of the Church are collectively known as the 4618: 1652:
a typical example) were a Germanic custom which (along with duelling) the popes had always opposed. As recently as the
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I've started an approach that may apply to Knowledge's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on
2619:
I changed once more but now it is enough. I am not changing the lead picture every third day - this is not a calendar.
1501:
Is that really our best source? What does a modern, secular biography of Francis say about it? Does anyone even know?
2605:
Sigh, we just changed the picture like a couple of days ago... because an IP complained that the other was not good.
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In 1219 he went to Egypt, where the crusaders were besieging Damietta. Crossing the lines between the sultan and the
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I've added information regarding the origin of the name 'Francesco'. I was surprised no one else had enterred this.
4093:
I am not referring to the lead, but to the first section (number 1 on the table of contents), named "Early Life". (
3431: 2160:, Francis rejoined the Order's brothers Elia and Pietro Cattini, and then most probably visited the holy places in 1910: 1106: 38: 3513: 386:
Wasn't Latin the native language of his time? Francis of Assisi lived about 100 years before Dante Alighieri... --
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So an editor questions something and we have no contemporary source to back it up. Maybe we should look for one.
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The CathEnc says it was Brother Leo. If this isn't simply vandalism, it needs to have some supporting citations.
1260:
St. Francis of Assisi is, after Mary and Joseph and the Apostles, arguably the greatest and most widely popular
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I just read the first part (lead and Early life section) of the article. I think the lead is all right. In the
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where it is open for comment and suggestions for improvement. Apologies for having clogged up this talk page.
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in the name of the Catholic Church confirmed since 1342 (pursuant to the Bull of that date of Pope Clement VI,
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focus, so I shall wait until you are in a position to engage with them. Meanwhile, the issue is not "sources"
1327: 734:, years with full dates should be linked; for example, if January 15, 2006 appeared in the article, link it as 171: 4604:
Honorius III approving the Rule of St. Francis, Bartolome del Castro, c. 1500 (Philadelphia Museum of Art).jpg
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section, the first paragraph is all right. The second paragraph starts out all right, but soon we get to this:
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audiences who can't be bothered to read an article here would probably do better at Simple English Knowledge.
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and monasterys have Transitus services on October 3rd to celebrate his death (transition to the afterlife.)
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Indeed it is still messy... People were editing here and there, adding this and that and it got confused.
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in the Early life section, though). Things ought to be told more or less in chronological order, I think.
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Greetings, here's my two-cents worth. Since there are so many images, would it not make sense to do these?
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https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Guido_di_Graciano._Staint-Francis-and-Stories-from-his-Life._1270..jpg
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to the Franciscans has no connection to the episode with the Sultan. The Franciscan connection with the
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Please don't add more pictures, there are enough now. When you add pictures generally, check if we have
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Neither have I, and there's no site on the web that confirms this independently. I'm removing it. --
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Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of
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His mother was French. After her death Giovanni became known as 'Little Frenchman' in memory of her.
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above, indicate that a wholesale re-write of this part of the section is required. What follows in
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In 1219, he went to Egypt in an attempt to convert the Sultan to put an end to the conflict of the
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intend to put this images into the article - we are talking about here about chosing a lead image.
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the current lead image, which I like. I only mentioned those criteria at the end of my comment to
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Please disregard above as after more investigation, I did find confirmation of above category at
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introduced into the article, but (s)he appears to adopt their views as to the relevant sources.
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that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's
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Duke Magazine Campus Observer "Blessing All Creatures, Great and Small" (November/December 2006)
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File:Giovanni Bellini - Saint Francis in the Desert - Google Art Project.jpg a featured picture
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many parents of different faiths, who would not normally learn about faiths outside their own.
753:. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view. 96:"Francis was born in 1182, smack in the middle of an era of heated hostility and confrontation" 4541: 4446: 4375: 4331: 3422: 2666: 2343: 2024:. . How well Bonaventure described Francis in his earlier writings is a subject of debate . . 1931:
There is no justification for assigning any level of probability to a visit by Francis to the
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confession of faith...it starts getting ridiculous to try to whitewash him to fit a PC mold.
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is one of the most qualified picture and media editor, I think we need a second oppinion.
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As of 3 January 2015, there are a total of 208 cardinals, while Archbishops are many more.
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but as long as it's acceptable to give both years it's probably best to leave it as is. --
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is my proposed re-write; at 400 words, it will be double the length of the existing part.
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would require proper sourcing. Right now saying anything else is just original research.
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I submitted the following since the article on St. Francis invited a better introduction.
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Hallo, now this no good either. This has to stop, really. It is pure disruption by now.
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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I'm just curious, because I've never seen such an exact date in any book. Thank you! --
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is supposed to be a summary of the important points, as a free standing little article.
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at top of this Francis of Assisi article lead section, pointing to the Gallery article.
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The Saint and the Sultan: The Crusades, Islam, and Francis of Assisi's Mission of Peace
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attending to general problems with the sources cited in this part of the article, and
1631:(1221-1274) was not a contemporary of St. Francis (?1181-1226). Bonaventure wrote his 705: 701: 214: 189: 3389: 270:(And if you happened to be wondering why this is such a useless article—see above.) -- 4637: 3989: 3970: 3092: 1763: 1569: 1538: 1502: 1463: 750: 375: 126: 3109:, if anyone has the knowledge to write that one. Not like a gallery though, because 1725: 370:
Also you have to remember a lot of famous people didn't do very well in school like
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as Pope, Archbishop Jorge Mario Cardinal Bergoglio of Argentina chose Francis as'
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and be recognized as "Custodians of the Holy Land" on behalf of Christianity. At
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Based on my research, I've found a couple discrepancies that may need addressed.
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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I've left in the quote, though the text didn't indicate where it came from. It
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every three months, or every six months, rotating from among a set of images?
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picked, it looks like two are landscape, two are portrait, and one is square.
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that in a nutshell explains how to create and manage a good Knowledge lead:
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File:Guido di Graciano. Staint-Francis-and-Stories-from-his-Life. 1270..jpg
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should look at this too. added actual image, so we can try to select one.
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a collection of legends and folklore that sprang up after the Saint's death
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Don't understand why remove it, I think it is perfectly well motivated. ?
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13th century Bardi or the fresco at/from Subiaco; Thats my two sesterces;
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Manichaeism is an extinct dualistic religion of Iranian origin, by the
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were the notable Cristians that were regarded as neo-Manichaeans. .
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garish yellow ruins suble colours of the works of this man. please fix
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Footnote 1 is a reference to Chesterton. Footnote 4 is "EBO Francis".
2003:(1907) has an appropriately low regard for the historical value of the 338: 4538: 3675: 2312:
Patronage doesn't mean he donates to cub scouts. It means he is the
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be from Br Leo's account, but I don't have any way of checking that.
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St. Francis' Biography by the Franciscan Institute Outreach (Malta):
1889:. There seems to be a conflation of (a) the role of Custos for the 1586: 3795:
But just on the side note the 'picture' that you have in your post
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launched by the Custodia which includes a brief historical review.
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or about the feast of the Exaltation of the Cross (14 September)".
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I'll re-post the link again, but if deleted again I'll let it go.
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Then we have Marauder's curious and misguided choice of Sabatier (
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Francis became fluent in reading several languages including Latin
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I believe this link meets all the wiki guidelines and is useful.
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commemorating the 650th anniversary of that Bull, and para. 6.47
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some time in the 1260's, and even the second of the two Lives by
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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
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In the first place, and contrary to what Marauder asserts, St.
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remain the largest religious order in the world. Francis was a
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offering my proposed re-write of this entire section, let me
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The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic
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as we did for two here. Adding actual text would be ideal.
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Thank you, EricBMunro (talk) 19:29, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
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might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper
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On the article page, in St. Francis' later life, it says:
84:" was born in the small town of Assisi in the year 1182." 2852: 1919:
The post of Custos and Pope Clement's entrustment of the
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Can't man. That is the Catholic Church userbox colour.
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Light in a Dark Age, The Story of Francesco and Chiara
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information. I started that last year while I raised
105:"Francis was born in this historical context in 1182." 2822:
http://www.catholic-pages.com/hierarchy/cardinals.asp
1985:, who agrees that the challenge is not historical. 765:(if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please 700:
Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at
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The the first Christmas nativity scene is important.
3860:- in the gallery. Which one is the portrait shaped? 668:
I noticed the omission (independently) and fixed it.
3933:I know, Phil has rotating images on her Talk-page. 2020:
Read also note 20 to the same General Introduction:
223:2/23/08 he was born on April 22 not September 26! 1981:, Doubleday Religion (2009) adapted by the author 1174:Inaccuracies regarding "Canticle of the Creatures" 4228:Removing this it removes a significant coverage: 4072:The lead is meant to summarize the key facts :). 244:no one is realy sure of his exact date of birth 2036:, 3 vols., 1999-2001, New City Press, vol. 1) 1885:not the Arabian peninsula or Mesopotamia). See 1198:"Canticle of the" Sun Creatures - Google Search 4609:Participate in the deletion discussion at the 4259:The travel to convert the Sultan is important. 3591:I think you may have misinterpreted me. I was 1302:exclusively a Catholic and Orthodox practice. 1294:It was reverted as 'undocumented commentary'. 1204:), treat them as the same piece of literature. 708:, and should adequately summarize the article. 2890:it with a new. Hey, that was no good either. 2769:CARDINAL: is the guy in purple flashy robes: 1961:Now, back to the business already in hand. 109:http://198.62.75.1/www1/ofm/fra/FRAlife1.html 8: 4214:written in a clear, accessible style with a 3807:13th century (after 1270) Siena Pinacoteca; 3105:Sure. We can very well make an article with 2855:there are a couple featured images as well. 1209:Francis of Assisi#Nature_and_the_environment 1181:Francis of Assisi#Nature_and_the_environment 331:ECK_master#Historical_figures_as_ECK_masters 4554:Did you watch Francesco's Friendly World? 4265:THat he received the stigmata is important. 2546:horrible yellow in box on right top of page 2346:Theater Performance by Living Wisdom School 1221:"Canticle of the Creatures" - Google Search 421:Careless errors concerning dates corrected* 4555: 3076:and place these extra images on that page. 2819:http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01691a.htm 2185: 2183: 2181: 1847:Comments on the "Missions work" section:- 454:Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great 3751:Very good, that's first selection, wish 1223:), not one (including the wiki entry for 4414:There is a nice summary essay on leads, 4142:Don't understand why remove it, really? 1200:) and even the supporting wiki article ( 873: 802:Please provide citations for all of the 427:Cultural depictions of Francis of Assisi 3610: 3569:point them out here or suggest them... 3149: 3115:WP:Knowledge is not an image repository 2973:Veneration of Mary in Roman Catholicism 2247:was invoked but never defined (see the 2196:was invoked but never defined (see the 2177: 2099:I have placed my comments on your page. 634:Working on it...one piece at a time! -- 4366:the right place later in the article ( 2156:, the capital of what remained of the 1112:Do not edit the contents of this page. 815:User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 2113:Thanks. My response to them, ditto. 1724:Finally, we are offered Chesterton's 1660:in The Catholic Encyclopedia (1911). 589:The Franciscan archives credit Saint 7: 3007:St. Francis and scenes from his life 2213:"Francis of Assisi in the Holy land" 585:St Francis and Eucharistic Adoration 2239: 2188: 378:.--Hailey 18:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC) 70:Date of birth: why april. 22, 1181? 3121:talking about removing images, or 2896:Right, removed that too. Put this. 2894:That was not good of course. OK, 2495:, can the 'di Pietro' be removed? 2034:Francis of Assisi: early documents 1233:several other sources found online 446:Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc 80:Francis: The Journey and the Dream 24: 2963:contemporary is not an argument. 717:Knowledge:Manual of Style (dates) 3951:How verify addition of Category 3721:) 17:44, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 3682: 3668: 3654: 3640: 3628: 3613: 3539: 3530: 3521: 3512: 3498: 3489: 3472: 3456: 3444: 3430: 3415: 3406: 3397: 3388: 3379: 3370: 3361: 3346: 3331: 3315: 3300: 3291: 3276: 3267: 3258: 3246: 3237: 3225: 3213: 3204: 3195: 3186: 3177: 3164: 3155: 3027: 2139:, he was received by the sultan 1671:for it (in chapter 9.7-9 of his 1097: 791:pigs are pink, so we thought of 749:in this article- please observe 548:Where's the criticism section? 308:Learning of St Francis of Assisi 29: 4497:Chastity, Poverty and Obedience 3986:List of postage stamps of India 3953:People on Indian postage stamps 3117:would apply there. But we are 2677:Francis of Assisi -Manichaeist? 2227:"Life of St. Francis of Assisi" 821:You may wish to browse through 745:There are a few occurrences of 314:Francis of Assisi and his world 4527:08:09, 12 September 2017 (UTC) 4445:, originally launched by user 4191:of a Knowledge article is the 2486:His name was never 'di Pietro' 2041:Legend of the Three Companions 1377:motto of the Franciscan orders 1: 4570:20:40, 11 November 2018 (UTC) 4487:13:01, 31 December 2015 (UTC) 4468:05:39, 31 December 2015 (UTC) 4404:19:59, 30 December 2015 (UTC) 4380:19:46, 30 December 2015 (UTC) 4318:19:40, 30 December 2015 (UTC) 4299:19:24, 30 December 2015 (UTC) 4283:18:18, 30 December 2015 (UTC) 4152:18:18, 30 December 2015 (UTC) 4133:17:44, 30 December 2015 (UTC) 4118:16:07, 30 December 2015 (UTC) 4103:20:06, 23 November 2015 (UTC) 4086:17:41, 18 November 2015 (UTC) 4064:09:31, 18 November 2015 (UTC) 3943:00:19, 18 February 2015 (UTC) 3918:23:57, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 3901:23:39, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 3887:23:30, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 3870:23:23, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 3849:23:20, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 3817:23:18, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 3797:11:45, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 3765:23:12, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 3745:22:54, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 3731:17:42, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 3706:17:40, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 3579:16:24, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 3560:16:08, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 3139:15:09, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 3101:14:36, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 3046:11:45, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 3019:09:59, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 2986:07:42, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 2948:07:29, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 2929:07:18, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 2908:12:57, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 2865:07:10, 17 February 2015 (UTC) 2694:may have also influenced the 2541:15:50, 30 November 2013 (UTC) 2440:03:08, 1 September 2012 (UTC) 2424:02:46, 1 September 2012 (UTC) 2339:Recently this external link: 2326:02:41, 25 February 2012 (UTC) 2306:01:24, 25 February 2012 (UTC) 1995:compilation). The entry for 1795:where it correctly mentions: 1520:Little Flowers of St. Francis 1415:03:51, 19 November 2010 (UTC) 1169:22:27, 18 February 2010 (UTC) 629:02:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC) 610:21:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC) 564:13:07, 28 November 2007 (UTC) 527:23:10, 8 September 2007 (UTC) 514:22:53, 8 September 2007 (UTC) 504:22:40, 8 September 2007 (UTC) 356:19:14, 11 December 2005 (UTC) 151:17:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC) 4650:17:27, 28 January 2020 (UTC) 4623:03:54, 14 January 2020 (UTC) 4332:Francis of Assisi#Early life 3959:Greetings, For this update: 2938:death. Thats my discussion. 2811:17:17, 1 February 2015 (UTC) 2794:15:11, 1 February 2015 (UTC) 2783:when the see becomes vacant. 2762:15:06, 1 February 2015 (UTC) 2725:This is a Cardinal from the 2712:12:10, 16 January 2015 (UTC) 1602:16:52, 12 January 2011 (UTC) 1580:16:30, 12 January 2011 (UTC) 1564:15:51, 12 January 2011 (UTC) 1549:15:07, 12 January 2011 (UTC) 1532:14:43, 12 January 2011 (UTC) 1513:23:05, 11 January 2011 (UTC) 1497:20:01, 11 January 2011 (UTC) 1474:18:58, 11 January 2011 (UTC) 1457:14:15, 10 January 2011 (UTC) 1441:00:51, 10 January 2011 (UTC) 1089:16:05, 28 October 2008 (UTC) 1071:14:22, 28 October 2008 (UTC) 1027:16:05, 28 October 2008 (UTC) 1009:15:11, 28 October 2008 (UTC) 970:16:09, 14 October 2008 (UTC) 543:23:53, 13 January 2007 (UTC) 466:17:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC) 260:22:26, 12 January 2009 (UTC) 198:04:42, 30 October 2009 (UTC) 92:The Sun and Moon Over Assisi 4550:11:27, 5 October 2018 (UTC) 4238:. In 1224, he received the 3074:Francis of Assisi (Gallery) 2671:16:01, 4 January 2015 (UTC) 2652:15:35, 4 January 2015 (UTC) 2629:21:13, 3 October 2014 (UTC) 2615:21:04, 3 October 2014 (UTC) 2599:21:01, 3 October 2014 (UTC) 2577:20:57, 3 October 2014 (UTC) 2560:20:29, 3 October 2014 (UTC) 2521:12:25, 2 October 2013 (UTC) 2480:04:45, 2 October 2013 (UTC) 2444: 1717:Thus, Sabatier is the very 1372:15:35, 19 August 2010 (UTC) 948:13:02, 9 October 2008 (UTC) 825:for further ideas. Thanks, 682:22:21, 4 October 2008 (UTC) 489:01:27, 7 January 2007 (UTC) 452:. Recently I also created 346:22:00, 2 October 2005 (UTC) 120:22:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC) 4665: 4043:18:27, 3 August 2015 (UTC) 4019:15:08, 3 August 2015 (UTC) 3123:cluttering up this article 2505:11:48, 27 March 2013 (UTC) 2123:18:28, 24 March 2011 (UTC) 2109:13:42, 24 March 2011 (UTC) 2094:18:01, 23 March 2011 (UTC) 2070:16:31, 23 March 2011 (UTC) 1949:19:18, 21 March 2011 (UTC) 1911:Custodian of the Holy Land 1811:06:12, 18 March 2011 (UTC) 1793:Nature and the environment 1777:19:40, 17 March 2011 (UTC) 1753:09:58, 17 March 2011 (UTC) 1702:St. Francis and the Sultan 1248:04:37, 29 April 2010 (UTC) 1215:other online sources (see 834:14:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC) 661:05:59, 20 March 2008 (UTC) 643:05:50, 15 March 2008 (UTC) 180:03:32, 25 April 2009 (UTC) 4590:17:05, 27 June 2019 (UTC) 3072:Make a separate article, 2276:12:59, 1 April 2011 (UTC) 2001:The Catholic Encyclopedia 1351:13:13, 29 July 2010 (UTC) 1334:04:46, 29 July 2010 (UTC) 1318:21:54, 28 July 2010 (UTC) 1153:18:34, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 921: 797:ways to turn them green.” 580:16:37, 16 June 2009 (UTC) 321:22:44, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) 218:08:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC) 135:23:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC) 94:by Gerard Thomas Straub: 4628:Role in Andean mythology 4350:called the Third Order). 4076:. Is this the problem? 3998:11:19, 1 June 2015 (UTC) 3979:11:13, 1 June 2015 (UTC) 3151:Francis of Assisi in art 3107:Francis of Assisi in art 2888:removed it, and replaced 2485: 2460:15:27, 3 June 2010 (UTC) 2082:User:Ridiculus mus/Tab 1 1863:Britannia online article 1231:is incorrect along with 1211:article in question and 916:04:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC) 890:14:37, 17 May 2008 (UTC) 863:12:56, 17 May 2008 (UTC) 297:15:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC) 239:22:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC) 82:by Murray Bodo, O.F.M.: 4533:Do he speak to animals? 3791:the way i understand it 2874:The long time standing 1939:.; Tolan, pp.287-289). 1758:First off, please read 975:Notable Early Followers 732:Knowledge:Build the web 615:Quality of Bibliography 533:Crusaders & Francis 366:08:16, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 4632:During discussions of 4205:lead or lede paragraph 3735:Oh, O.K. That's good. 3662:Bartolomeo della Gatta 2847: 2839: 2730: 2587:Template:Infobox saint 2026: 2018: 1800: 1736: 1715: 1697: 1654:Fourth Lateran Council 1485: 1207:More importantly, the 1190: 879: 839:Remains of St. Francis 823:User:AndyZ/Suggestions 648:Francis in Other Media 18:Talk:Francis of Assisi 4216:neutral point of view 4026:Prophecy of the Popes 4004:Prophecy of the Popes 2845: 2837: 2773:ecclesiastical prince 2724: 2493:Prophecy of the Popes 2075:Trial-by-fire: take 4 2028:*(Regis J. Armstrong 2022: 2009: 1954:Trial-by-fire: take 3 1903:a recent papal letter 1867:Actus Beati Francisci 1819:Trial-by-fire: take 2 1796: 1732: 1710: 1692: 1480: 1185: 1159:just undo the change. 1110:of past discussions. 877: 811:Knowledge's best work 595:Eucharistic adoration 448:, which has become a 42:of past discussions. 4576:Other faiths section 3481:José Benlliure y Gil 3451:by Jusepe de Ribera, 2886:, but we nice guys 2777:College of Cardinals 2727:College of Cardinals 2243:The named reference 2192:The named reference 2158:Kingdom of Jerusalem 1727:St Francis of Assisi 780:redundancy exercises 327:category:Eck Masters 4289:a different topic. 4179:(also known as the 3648:Gentile da Fabriano 2445:Francis' Death Date 1901:), as to which see 1706:Historia Orientalis 1357:Patron Saint of ... 1225:Canticle of the Sun 1202:Canticle of the Sun 922:Francis' Death Date 878:tomb of St. Francis 341:and idiosyncratic? 337:religous group too 4615:Community Tech bot 4049:Early Life Section 3308:Domenico Veneziano 3232:File:Taddeo gaddi, 2848: 2840: 2731: 2332:Video link deleted 1684:Vie de S. François 880: 694:javascript program 434:in popular culture 4572: 4560:comment added by 4442: 4438: 4420: 4197:table of contents 4024:I meant, that in 3856:But we are using 3838: 3805:Guido di Graziano 3423:Francisco Ribalta 2838:CURRENT LEAD IMGE 2781:electing the pope 2470:comment added by 2395: 2381:comment added by 2296:comment added by 1839:Tommaso da Celano 1637:Tomasso da Celano 1431:comment added by 1402: 1388:comment added by 1135: 1134: 1122: 1121: 1116:current talk page 1074: 1057:comment added by 1033:Becoming a knight 1012: 995:comment added by 951: 934:comment added by 918: 902:comment added by 865: 849:comment added by 831: 728:Knowledge:Context 713:Knowledge:Context 591:Francis of Assisi 566: 554:comment added by 407: 393:comment added by 291: 277:comment added by 250:comment added by 241: 229:comment added by 183: 166:comment added by 67: 66: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 4656: 4466: 4444: 4443: 4440: 4422: 4421: 4418: 4415: 4244:Christ's Passion 4164:The lead as per 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3618: 3595:your position, 3544: 3535: 3526: 3517: 3508: 3506:Jacopo Chimenti 3503: 3494: 3485: 3477: 3468: 3461: 3452: 3449: 3440: 3435: 3426: 3420: 3411: 3402: 3393: 3384: 3375: 3366: 3357: 3351: 3342: 3336: 3327: 3320: 3311: 3305: 3296: 3287: 3281: 3272: 3263: 3254: 3251: 3242: 3233: 3230: 3221: 3220:File:Angelico, 3218: 3209: 3200: 3191: 3182: 3173: 3169: 3160: 2832: 2719: 2679: 2639: 2548: 2529: 2488: 2465: 2447: 2437:(contributions) 2376: 2334: 2291: 2288: 2259: 2258: 2257: 2244: 2242: 2240: 2235: 2225: 2224: 2220: 2211: 2210: 2206: 2193: 2191: 2189: 2179: 2077: 1956: 1821: 1570: 1539: 1503: 1464: 1426: 1423: 1383: 1379: 1359: 1331:(contributions) 1266:Catholic Church 1255: 1176: 1140: 1127: 1098: 1052: 1035: 990: 977: 957: 929: 924: 841: 803: 792: 786: 690: 650: 631:Arthur Shippee 617: 587: 535: 486:Francis419jn655 473: 460: 444:when I created 430: 388: 384: 372:Albert Einstein 353:glasperlenspiel 325:Can we add the 310: 272: 268: 245: 205: 168:Frankie Dangers 161: 72: 59: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 4662: 4660: 4629: 4626: 4607: 4606: 4596: 4593: 4577: 4574: 4562:173.187.83.151 4534: 4531: 4513: 4508: 4503: 4498: 4495: 4494: 4493: 4492: 4491: 4490: 4489: 4411: 4410: 4409: 4408: 4407: 4406: 4387: 4386: 4385: 4384: 4383: 4382: 4358: 4357: 4356: 4355: 4354: 4353: 4352: 4351: 4340: 4339: 4338: 4337: 4336: 4335: 4323: 4322: 4321: 4320: 4302: 4301: 4271: 4270: 4269: 4268: 4267: 4266: 4263: 4260: 4236:nativity scene 4225:.. and so on. 4199:and the first 4173: 4172: 4171: 4170: 4157: 4155: 4154: 4138: 4136: 4135: 4110:23.119.204.117 4091: 4090: 4089: 4088: 4050: 4047: 4046: 4045: 4005: 4002: 4001: 4000: 3956: 3949: 3948: 3947: 3946: 3945: 3927: 3925: 3924: 3923: 3922: 3921: 3920: 3904: 3903: 3873: 3872: 3830: 3829: 3828: 3827: 3826: 3825: 3824: 3823: 3822: 3821: 3820: 3819: 3794: 3776: 3775: 3774: 3773: 3772: 3771: 3770: 3769: 3768: 3767: 3694: 3693: 3688: 3681: 3679: 3674: 3667: 3665: 3660: 3653: 3651: 3646: 3639: 3637: 3634: 3627: 3625: 3619: 3612: 3609: 3608: 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2632: 2631: 2617: 2603: 2602: 2601: 2580: 2579: 2552:173.65.103.130 2547: 2544: 2528: 2525: 2524: 2523: 2497:83.105.111.231 2491:pope with the 2487: 2484: 2446: 2443: 2431:carl bunderson 2411: 2410: 2404: 2402: 2401: 2348: 2347: 2333: 2330: 2329: 2328: 2298:64.143.189.190 2287: 2284: 2283: 2282: 2281: 2280: 2279: 2278: 2256: 2255: 2233: 2218: 2204: 2176: 2175: 2171: 2170: 2169: 2168: 2167: 2166: 2165: 2141:Melek-el-Kamel 2129: 2076: 2073: 1955: 1952: 1899:Gratias agimus 1856:Melek-el-Kamel 1820: 1817: 1816: 1815: 1814: 1813: 1780: 1779: 1621: 1620: 1619: 1618: 1617: 1616: 1615: 1614: 1613: 1612: 1611: 1610: 1609: 1608: 1607: 1606: 1605: 1604: 1433:41.206.158.233 1422: 1419: 1378: 1375: 1358: 1355: 1354: 1353: 1337: 1336: 1325:carl bunderson 1254: 1251: 1237: 1236: 1205: 1175: 1172: 1139: 1136: 1133: 1132: 1120: 1119: 1102: 1092: 1091: 1034: 1031: 1030: 1029: 976: 973: 956: 953: 923: 920: 895: 893: 892: 868: 840: 837: 819: 818: 807: 800: 799: 798: 772: 771: 770: 769:this comment). 759: 743: 724: 709: 702:Knowledge:Lead 689: 686: 685: 684: 670: 669: 653:12.149.131.194 649: 646: 616: 613: 586: 583: 547: 534: 531: 530: 529: 516: 506: 481: 480: 472: 469: 429: 424: 423: 422: 395:218.101.74.194 383: 380: 359: 358: 324: 309: 306: 305: 304: 267: 264: 252:216.164.138.83 221: 204: 203:Origin of Name 201: 185: 184: 155: 154: 138: 137: 113: 112: 100: 99: 88: 87: 71: 68: 65: 64: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 4661: 4652: 4651: 4647: 4643: 4642:Jo-Jo Eumerus 4640:if possible. 4639: 4638:Talk:Coropuna 4635: 4627: 4625: 4624: 4620: 4616: 4612: 4605: 4602: 4601: 4600: 4594: 4592: 4591: 4587: 4583: 4575: 4573: 4571: 4567: 4563: 4559: 4552: 4551: 4547: 4543: 4540: 4532: 4530: 4528: 4524: 4520: 4514: 4509: 4504: 4496: 4488: 4484: 4480: 4476: 4475: 4474: 4473: 4472: 4471: 4470: 4469: 4464: 4460: 4454: 4453: 4452:WP:LEADCREATE 4448: 4437: 4433: 4429: 4425: 4405: 4401: 4397: 4393: 4392: 4391: 4390: 4389: 4388: 4381: 4377: 4373: 4369: 4364: 4363: 4362: 4361: 4360: 4359: 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3835:edit conflict 3818: 3814: 3810: 3806: 3802: 3798: 3792: 3788: 3787: 3786: 3785: 3784: 3783: 3782: 3781: 3780: 3779: 3778: 3777: 3766: 3762: 3758: 3754: 3750: 3749: 3748: 3747: 3746: 3742: 3738: 3734: 3733: 3732: 3728: 3724: 3720: 3716: 3712: 3711: 3710: 3709: 3708: 3707: 3703: 3699: 3691: 3685: 3680: 3677: 3671: 3666: 3663: 3657: 3652: 3649: 3643: 3638: 3631: 3626: 3622: 3616: 3611: 3602: 3598: 3594: 3590: 3589: 3588: 3587: 3586: 3585: 3580: 3576: 3572: 3567: 3566: 3565: 3564: 3561: 3557: 3553: 3548: 3547: 3542: 3537: 3533: 3528: 3524: 3519: 3515: 3510: 3507: 3501: 3496: 3492: 3487: 3484: 3482: 3475: 3470: 3467: 3466: 3459: 3454: 3447: 3442: 3439: 3433: 3428: 3424: 3418: 3413: 3409: 3404: 3400: 3395: 3391: 3386: 3382: 3377: 3373: 3368: 3364: 3359: 3355: 3349: 3344: 3340: 3334: 3329: 3325: 3318: 3313: 3309: 3303: 3298: 3294: 3289: 3285: 3279: 3274: 3270: 3265: 3261: 3256: 3249: 3244: 3240: 3235: 3228: 3223: 3216: 3211: 3207: 3202: 3198: 3193: 3189: 3184: 3180: 3175: 3172: 3167: 3162: 3158: 3153: 3150: 3148: 3140: 3136: 3132: 3128: 3124: 3120: 3116: 3112: 3111:WP:NOTGALLERY 3108: 3104: 3103: 3102: 3098: 3094: 3090: 3087: 3082: 3078: 3075: 3071: 3070: 3066: 3065: 3064: 3063: 3062: 3047: 3043: 3039: 3035: 3030: 3024: 3023: 3022: 3021: 3020: 3016: 3012: 3008: 3003: 3002: 3001: 3000: 2999: 2998: 2997: 2996: 2987: 2983: 2979: 2974: 2970: 2966: 2961: 2960: 2959: 2958: 2957: 2956: 2955: 2954: 2949: 2945: 2941: 2936: 2935: 2934: 2933: 2930: 2926: 2922: 2917: 2916: 2909: 2905: 2901: 2897: 2893: 2889: 2885: 2881: 2877: 2873: 2872: 2871: 2870: 2869: 2868: 2867: 2866: 2862: 2858: 2854: 2844: 2836: 2829: 2827: 2824: 2823: 2820: 2812: 2808: 2804: 2800: 2799: 2798: 2797: 2796: 2795: 2791: 2787: 2784: 2782: 2778: 2774: 2763: 2759: 2755: 2751: 2750: 2745: 2742: 2739:is wrong. He 2738: 2735: 2734: 2733: 2732: 2728: 2723: 2716: 2714: 2713: 2709: 2705: 2701: 2697: 2693: 2689: 2684: 2676: 2672: 2668: 2664: 2660: 2656: 2655: 2654: 2653: 2649: 2645: 2636: 2630: 2626: 2622: 2618: 2616: 2612: 2608: 2604: 2600: 2596: 2592: 2588: 2584: 2583: 2582: 2581: 2578: 2574: 2570: 2566: 2565: 2564: 2563: 2562: 2561: 2557: 2553: 2545: 2543: 2542: 2538: 2534: 2526: 2522: 2518: 2514: 2509: 2508: 2507: 2506: 2502: 2498: 2494: 2483: 2481: 2477: 2473: 2469: 2462: 2461: 2457: 2453: 2442: 2441: 2438: 2435: 2432: 2426: 2425: 2421: 2417: 2407: 2406: 2405: 2398: 2397: 2396: 2392: 2388: 2384: 2380: 2372: 2369: 2365: 2361: 2358: 2354: 2351: 2350:was removed. 2345: 2342: 2341: 2340: 2337: 2331: 2327: 2323: 2319: 2315: 2311: 2310: 2309: 2307: 2303: 2299: 2295: 2285: 2277: 2273: 2269: 2268:Ridiculus mus 2265: 2264: 2263: 2262: 2261: 2260: 2250: 2237: 2234: 2228: 2222: 2219: 2214: 2208: 2205: 2199: 2186: 2184: 2182: 2178: 2174: 2163: 2159: 2155: 2151: 2146: 2142: 2138: 2134: 2130: 2126: 2125: 2124: 2120: 2116: 2115:Ridiculus mus 2112: 2111: 2110: 2106: 2102: 2098: 2097: 2096: 2095: 2091: 2087: 2086:Ridiculus mus 2083: 2074: 2072: 2071: 2067: 2063: 2062:Ridiculus mus 2059: 2055: 2049: 2045: 2042: 2037: 2035: 2031: 2025: 2021: 2017: 2015: 2008: 2006: 2005:Legenda major 2002: 1998: 1994: 1993: 1986: 1984: 1980: 1974: 1970: 1966: 1962: 1960: 1953: 1951: 1950: 1946: 1942: 1941:Ridiculus mus 1938: 1934: 1929: 1926: 1922: 1917: 1915: 1912: 1909:, as well as 1908: 1904: 1900: 1896: 1892: 1888: 1882: 1880: 1879:a new website 1876: 1870: 1868: 1864: 1859: 1857: 1853: 1848: 1846: 1842: 1840: 1835: 1831: 1827: 1818: 1812: 1808: 1804: 1803:Ridiculus mus 1799: 1794: 1789: 1784: 1783: 1782: 1781: 1778: 1774: 1770: 1765: 1761: 1757: 1756: 1755: 1754: 1750: 1746: 1745:Ridiculus mus 1740: 1735: 1731: 1729: 1728: 1722: 1720: 1714: 1709: 1707: 1703: 1696: 1691: 1689: 1685: 1680: 1678: 1677:Legenda major 1674: 1673:Legenda major 1670: 1666: 1661: 1659: 1655: 1651: 1646: 1642: 1638: 1634: 1633:Legenda major 1630: 1625: 1603: 1599: 1595: 1591: 1587: 1583: 1582: 1581: 1577: 1573: 1567: 1566: 1565: 1561: 1557: 1552: 1551: 1550: 1546: 1542: 1535: 1534: 1533: 1529: 1525: 1521: 1516: 1515: 1514: 1510: 1506: 1500: 1499: 1498: 1494: 1490: 1484: 1477: 1476: 1475: 1471: 1467: 1460: 1459: 1458: 1454: 1450: 1446: 1445: 1444: 1442: 1438: 1434: 1430: 1421:Trial by fire 1420: 1418: 1417:Quintavalle. 1416: 1412: 1408: 1403: 1399: 1395: 1391: 1387: 1376: 1374: 1373: 1369: 1365: 1356: 1352: 1348: 1344: 1339: 1338: 1335: 1332: 1329: 1326: 1322: 1321: 1320: 1319: 1315: 1311: 1307: 1303: 1299: 1295: 1292: 1290: 1286: 1283: 1279: 1275: 1271: 1267: 1263: 1258: 1252: 1250: 1249: 1245: 1241: 1234: 1230: 1226: 1222: 1218: 1214: 1210: 1206: 1203: 1199: 1195: 1194: 1193: 1189: 1184: 1182: 1173: 1171: 1170: 1166: 1162: 1156: 1154: 1150: 1146: 1137: 1130: 1126: 1125: 1117: 1113: 1109: 1108: 1103: 1096: 1095: 1090: 1086: 1082: 1077: 1076: 1075: 1072: 1068: 1064: 1060: 1056: 1047: 1043: 1039: 1032: 1028: 1024: 1020: 1015: 1014: 1013: 1010: 1006: 1002: 998: 994: 985: 981: 974: 972: 971: 967: 963: 954: 952: 949: 945: 941: 937: 933: 919: 917: 913: 909: 905: 901: 891: 887: 883: 876: 871: 870: 869: 866: 864: 860: 856: 852: 848: 838: 836: 835: 832: 828: 824: 816: 812: 808: 801: 795: 789: 784: 783: 781: 777: 773: 768: 764: 760: 758: 757:is considered 755: 754: 752: 748: 744: 741: 737: 733: 729: 725: 722: 718: 714: 710: 707: 703: 699: 698: 697: 695: 687: 683: 679: 675: 672: 671: 667: 666: 665: 662: 658: 654: 647: 645: 644: 641: 637: 632: 630: 626: 622: 614: 612: 611: 607: 603: 599: 596: 593:for starting 592: 584: 582: 581: 577: 573: 567: 565: 561: 557: 553: 545: 544: 541: 532: 528: 525: 521: 517: 515: 512: 507: 505: 502: 497: 493: 492: 491: 490: 487: 478: 477: 476: 471:Stigmata date 470: 468: 467: 464: 463: 455: 451: 450:featured list 447: 443: 439: 435: 428: 425: 420: 419: 418: 415: 412: 408: 404: 400: 396: 392: 381: 379: 377: 376:Thomas Edison 373: 368: 367: 364: 357: 354: 350: 349: 348: 347: 344: 340: 336: 332: 328: 322: 320: 315: 312:According to 307: 301: 300: 299: 298: 295: 292:Confirmed by 288: 284: 280: 276: 265: 263: 261: 257: 253: 249: 242: 240: 236: 232: 231:71.176.164.78 228: 220: 219: 216: 211: 208: 202: 200: 199: 195: 191: 181: 177: 173: 169: 165: 157: 156: 152: 148: 144: 140: 139: 136: 132: 128: 124: 123: 122: 121: 118: 110: 106: 102: 101: 97: 93: 90: 89: 85: 81: 78: 77: 76: 69: 62: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 4631: 4608: 4598: 4579: 4556:— Preceding 4553: 4542:Cloud forest 4536: 4515: 4510: 4505: 4500: 4450: 4447:BullRangifer 4412: 4367: 4272: 4229: 4227: 4222: 4221: 4212: 4211: 4208: 4188: 4185:introduction 4184: 4180: 4177:lead section 4176: 4174: 4163: 4156: 4137: 4107: 4092: 4052: 4030: 4007: 3985: 3966: 3964: 3961: 3958: 3952: 3926: 3831: 3796: 3790: 3695: 3621:Fra Angelico 3600: 3596: 3592: 3479: 3463: 3284:Jan van Eyck 3171: 3146: 3126: 3122: 3118: 3080: 3073: 3060: 3006: 2884:was reverted 2876:was disliked 2849: 2825: 2817: 2780: 2776: 2772: 2770: 2768: 2747: 2740: 2736: 2683:Prophet Mani 2680: 2658: 2640: 2549: 2530: 2489: 2472:123.3.51.233 2466:— Preceding 2463: 2448: 2427: 2412: 2403: 2377:— Preceding 2373: 2370: 2366: 2362: 2359: 2355: 2352: 2349: 2338: 2335: 2314:patron saint 2292:— Preceding 2289: 2241:Cite error: 2236: 2221: 2207: 2190:Cite error: 2172: 2078: 2057: 2053: 2050: 2046: 2040: 2038: 2033: 2029: 2027: 2023: 2019: 2013: 2010: 2004: 2000: 1991: 1987: 1978: 1975: 1971: 1967: 1963: 1958: 1957: 1936: 1930: 1918: 1913: 1898: 1883: 1877:. Also, see 1871: 1866: 1860: 1858:redirects). 1849: 1844: 1843: 1833: 1829: 1825: 1822: 1797: 1792: 1787: 1743:Bonaventure. 1741: 1737: 1733: 1726: 1723: 1716: 1711: 1705: 1701: 1698: 1693: 1687: 1683: 1681: 1676: 1672: 1664: 1662: 1649: 1640: 1632: 1626: 1622: 1481: 1424: 1404: 1380: 1360: 1308: 1304: 1300: 1296: 1293: 1287:and a famed 1259: 1256: 1253:Introduction 1238: 1212: 1191: 1186: 1177: 1157: 1155:Quintavalle 1141: 1128: 1111: 1105: 1048: 1044: 1040: 1036: 986: 982: 978: 958: 955:Best Friends 925: 894: 867: 842: 829: 820: 793: 787: 776:redundancies 766: 756: 747:weasel words 691: 651: 633: 618: 588: 572:MidlandLinda 568: 556:69.133.29.13 546: 536: 519: 495: 484:necessary.-- 482: 474: 458: 433: 431: 416: 413: 409: 385: 369: 360: 333:) or is the 323: 319:File Éireann 313: 311: 294:Ian Spackman 279:Ian Spackman 269: 243: 222: 212: 209: 206: 186: 117:Huttenlocher 114: 104: 95: 91: 83: 79: 73: 60: 43: 37: 4582:SkandaPanda 4459:Checkingfax 4195:before the 3893:Crisco 1492 3809:Agilulf2007 3753:Crisco 1492 3253:File:Giotto 3034:Crisco 1492 3011:Agilulf2007 2940:Agilulf2007 2853:Crisco 1492 2692:Manichaeism 2591:Jerome Kohl 2286:Cub Scouts? 2245:EBO Francis 1997:Bonaventure 1933:Holy Places 1921:Holy Places 1895:Holy Places 1645:5th Crusade 1629:Bonaventure 1427:—Preceding 1407:quintavalle 1384:—Preceding 1310:99.62.29.46 1278:Franciscans 1274:Franciscans 1161:Merbeliumph 1145:quintavalle 1104:This is an 1053:—Preceding 991:—Preceding 930:—Preceding 898:—Preceding 845:—Preceding 813:. 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La 774:Watch for 736:January 15 640:Μολὼν λαβέ 303:2006 (UTC) 98:(page 56). 4479:Hafspajen 4436:Barbosa76 4428:Hafspajen 4396:Hafspajen 4310:Hafspajen 4275:Hafspajen 4248:Psalm 142 4144:Hafspajen 4095:Barbosa76 4078:Hafspajen 4056:Barbosa76 4011:Hafspajen 3988:article. 3935:Hafspajen 3910:CorinneSD 3879:CorinneSD 3862:Hafspajen 3841:CorinneSD 3757:Hafspajen 3737:CorinneSD 3723:Hafspajen 3715:Hafspajen 3698:CorinneSD 3635:Pesellino 3571:Hafspajen 3552:CorinneSD 3341:, c. 1500 3310:, (1445) 3131:Hafspajen 3125:- we do 3091:Regards, 3038:Hafspajen 2978:Hafspajen 2921:Hafspajen 2900:Hafspajen 2882:, right, 2857:Hafspajen 2803:Hafspajen 2786:Hafspajen 2754:Hafspajen 2746:and made 2704:Hafspajen 2644:Hafspajen 2621:Hafspajen 2607:Hafspajen 2569:Hafspajen 2533:Hafspajen 2249:help page 2198:help page 2162:Palestine 2150:Holy Land 2133:Crusaders 1925:Holy Land 1891:Holy Land 1695:religion. 1240:brandonjp 1183:article: 1129:Archive 1 1059:ManningEJ 997:Chanceyss 763:citations 621:ABShippee 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Index

Talk:Francis of Assisi
archive
current talk page
Archive 1
http://198.62.75.1/www1/ofm/fra/FRAlife1.html
Huttenlocher
22:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
JackofOz
talk
23:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Quintavalle
talk
17:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
unsigned
Frankie Dangers
talk
contribs
03:32, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
mwalimu59
talk
04:42, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Iamlondon
08:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
unsigned
71.176.164.78
talk
22:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
unsigned
216.164.138.83
talk

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