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thrown into a prison." And as far as the reasons for detaining Latin
American Germans, it certainly was nothing so reasonable as hemispheric security, quote, "as late as 1944, Germans were still being apprehended, possibly as fodder for prisoner exchanges. Additionally, Germans in Latin America were interned in the United States, "a wholesale internment that took place under the guise of hemispherical security," Heitmann said, citing Hoover's zeal to build up the bureau and compete with the Office of Strategic Services and later the CIA for jurisdiction over the Western Hemisphere." Which would make sense if one looks at the history of American foreign policy. As far as many Latin American countries not sending their German nationals, its because they refused to, that may be in another article that I forgot to link, I'll read through them again and check. Remember, Japan also had an active spy network in Latin America but we did not intern the large Japanese populations of those same countries (Brazil, Chile, etc.) I believe that it was because it was not economically feasible for these countries to deport their large German immigrant populations (the same reason we didn't intern Hawaii's Japanese population). Certainly it does not compare to the racist and unjustifiable internment of 110,000 Japanese and Japanese-Americans but I think that it should be included because it gives yet another example for Roosevelt's failure to uphold civil rights (especially the treament of immigrants since most resident aliens held during the war were Europeans), which is probably his biggest failure, and the fact that some were actually sent back to Germany during the war, with their American citizen children, is particularly horrific.
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justify it. As far as being deported to
Germany Jacobs himself said he had no choice, quote, "my brother and I were expatriated. We were minors and had no choice." They were Americans citizens and thus it was very illegal to deport them to a country they have never even seen before. I truly don't understand why you are attempting to justify this internment. As far as there being "only 4,000 Latin-American German" internees, i said earlier that this is because it was impractical to deport the huge German populations of nations like Brazil, the same reason the Japanese on Hawaii were not interned and there as much of a threat of Japanese espionage and there was of german, but no one accepts that an explaination for the japanese internment. Remember these people WERE NOT arrested, they were interned, there was absolutely no evidence ANY of these people had anything to do with any acts against the United States or had any intention of doing so. I don't care if its not expanded, but you said you would like to delete it completely which i think would be a mistake, because it was a violation of civil rights and it did effect millions of Americans (citizens or not), certainly not a "minor incident." BTW, if you do accept that not all of the interees were aliens i would like to change the article to say "mostly german born" from "all german born"
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this is trivial, which has been my point all along. Further, Ebel makes it clear that these 11,000 were all German nationals. The US was at war with Nazi
Germany, and Germany had active spy networks in the US. Some form of preventive detention of German nationals in those circumstances was perfectly justified, was provided for by law, and was the practice in every country (in Australia, where I live, all enemy aliens without exception were interned for the duration of both world wars, including Jewish refugees from Germany until 1943). No doubt individual injustices were committed. But this does not bear comparison with the mass internment of
861:(Ebel) says they were German nationals. The US citizens were their relatives who chose to go into internment with them, as was clearly the case with Jacobs. This was all very sad, but must be viewed in the context of wartime. Don't you understand what was entailed in fighting a war against Nazi Germany? The democracies were perfectly entitled to defend themselves against potential espionage, and this necessarily required preemptive measures of a kind that would not be acceptable (or legal) in peacetime. As for Latin America, it is absurd to call 4,000 transfers out of 1.5 million Germans "wholesale." This was a trivial and minor incident.
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capacity to deal with the potential threat of German espionage. Again, in the circumstances, this seems to me to be in principle a justifiable action in wartime, however badly it was handled in practice. Bear in mind the crucial strategic importance of the Panama Canal in wartime. Your source Moore criticises the author of the book under review for ignoring the political context of these events, including the fact that at least some of the transferees were indeed Nazis.
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rearmament in about 1940. The use of the word "peacetime" is rather pointless here. A booming wartime economy is still a booming economy, and by 1942 even illiterate black migrants from
Alabama were earning good wages in factories in Chicago and Detroit. Of course there was very little construction during the war, because resources were being directed into armaments production. It may be true that
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economically related) so I might just take it out completely eventually. Also, i would like to mention that 56% of all alien internees were
European and that many were actually sent back to Germany (including their American spouses and children) during the war in exchange for Americans in Germany and that many were then killed, but I fear some might find that too much for the article.
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employees or others who got money out of them. Of course those who got neither jobs nor money out of it, and those who had to pay those who got money and jobs out of it with higher taxes, didn't think it was very fair. Truman inherited a lot of discontent about New Deal economic policies and didn't run on a
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Not the ultimate index; it is perhaps the best contemporaneous overall index available that spans the time in question. Other indexes didn't exist, or were developed later, often by guess work. For example, unemployment. The 25% figure is just guess work, and that it was probably guessed at based on
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You are complaining about POV, and then you state as fact that "President Truman's Fair Deal was in fact an admission the New Deal had not been fair"? Are you for real? As for "the 1937-1943 depression," I'd always heard of the "1937-1938 Recession," which was, in fact, not worse than the 1929-1933
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They "chose" to go into the camps with their parentsĀ ? They were childrenĀ ! Jacobs was 11 years old. They were children who's parents were being seized by the government without charge and put into camps. So i don't think they were in a postiotn to make rational decisions and it certainly does not
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Americans of German ancestry during World War II. Of these, she says, 11,000 were interned, or 0.0002%. Your second link, the Moore book review, says that less than 1% of German immigrants (that is, people born in
Germany) were interned in the US. Compared to the treatment of the Japanese-Americans,
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The book goes into great detail about how and why we interned Latin
American Germans. As far as the deportation to Germany during the war i believe that page has info on it and try googling " Eiserloh Family" they're one of the more famous cases and they go into detail on how they were sent back to
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Well if you can find a source that shows some sort of economic coercion, for example, I'd be very much interested in that; however, the term "forced" could imply violent threat. That's the problem with the word. We'll give you time to find some reference, cause FDR's Latin
American dealings are an
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If you consider the Dow a better index, write a letter to your
Congressman and ask him or her to introduce legislation mandating that the Commerce Department stop calculating GDP and go on the Dow instead. This is the proper channel for taking action based on your personal theories. An encyclopedia,
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Morrison: I hope you don't give up on the Latin
American research, it could be very valuable; perhaps the word "induced" can still get the meaning across vs voluntary "persuasion". As to the reversion, if you were to lay the premise first (instead of treating it as a conclusion), something of this
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returned to something like it was prior to 1929. As a testament, one can venture into virtually any American city and find a distinct gap in the building and construction trades in the decades of the 30's and 40's where virtually nothing was built except quonset huts, and what was built was either
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Well, I'm one that put it in the article. As far as being forced, everything I've read about the subject mentioned that the Latin America countries were forced to send their Germans to the US, but i can't find any info on how they were forced, so you can change that. As far as deleting the whole
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This is an argument about nothing. The article doesn't claim that the New Deal cured the Depression. In any case the expression "The 1929-1949 recession" shows that you don't know what you are talking about. By 1942 the US had full employment, in fact a labour shortage, and rising living standards
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Well at least we know now where you're coming from politically. I continue to reject your view that the Dow is the ultimate index of economic well-being. That Wall Street didn't like FDR or his programs, and usually does better under Republicans, is hardly surprising, nor an original observation.
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Its quite clear not all internees were German born, internees included the children of immigrants who were born in the United States, thus citizens, and also naturalized citizens. Quoting Arthur Jacobs, "Then my brother and I - American citizens and children at that - along with our father were
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Is a work by Aviva Chomsky being given as a source for the statement: "Roosevelt also forced several Latin American countries to send their German aliens to internment camps in the United States"? If so, could we have a link to the work, or a quote from it? I have to say I am skeptical about the
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Yes indeed, most of the economic terms we use today were worked out over that period of time. And when wartime production ended, jobs were lost, not to mention the unemployment brought about by demobilization of 3,000,000 returning servicemen. But America had a new role to play in the world as
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The 1929-1949 recession had within it another recession from 1937-1943; 1933 to 1937 were recovery years (stimulated by the New Deal, however by 1937 the nation had nowhere near recovered to where it was in 1929. Then the demand stimulated by WWII led to the 1943-1949 recovery, where finally, in
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I am reverting Cognition's edits because I revert all LaRouchist edits, not because I agree or disagree with any particular edit. In this case I disagree with his edits. What historians have said about FDR is a necessary part of the article. The LaRouchists' pretence of admiring FDR as means of
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Economics is not my field, but I recall that the definition of a recession is a certain number of consecutive quarters of negative growth. It think that is a more useful definition than the stock market. By that definition the US was most certainly out of recession by the beginning of fullscale
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of German citizens, where there was no evidence of subversive or espionage activities, however their political views were suspect; and they were given the choice of internment or deportation. And an exchange could also be considered deportation. Again, speaking of only vague recollections on a
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article for example, it states Browder supported the New Deal in 1940; this is simply a modern editors writing style cause he couldn't fit it in earlier. By 1940 New Deal programs were hardly new anymore and the only ones who seemed to have anything positive to say about them where government
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Germans in Latin America - where, let us remember, an active Nazi network operated, run by the AO in Germany. The large German communities in Argentina, Chile and Brazil were not touched. These measures applied only to the small Central American states which, in the view of the US, lacked the
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Edit warring is not helpful. I'm not sure I agree with Cognition's assertion that this makes the article more NPOV. Cognition's own admitted bias toward FDR doesn't help his case. I would like to suggest that those with strong emotional involvement take a break from editing here to read
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Ok, well, I couldn't find exactly how the government "forced" Latin American countries to send their Germans to the camps so I changed it to the less aggressive "persuaded." Like I said, I haven't been able to find any info on what the nature of the "persuasion" was (I would assume it was
865:(Moore) says that this "issue" is being driven by left-wing authors of the Chomsky school who want to argue that everything the US has ever done is evil, and has more to do with current US politics (Bush Iraq yadda yadda) than with historical truth. This whole matter merits no more
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may betray a POV. The subject is the quota on German & Austrian refugees, not "European" refugees, yet the two are linked together. FDR was not responsible for the 1927 Immigration Act that put quotas on Eastern European nations. The two subject perhaps should be
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The paragraph about the Germans was imposed on the article by another user, whose name I forget, against my wishes. I don't know if the statements in it are true or not, but I gave up arguing about it. I would be pleased if someone (other than me) deleted it.
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I'm not interested in debating with your leftist slogans. It does seem odd that someone who holds such views should place such emphasis on the stock market as an indicator of living standards. This surely is to confuse cause and effect and is very unmarxist.
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LaRouche is only a fascist according to Dennis King and Chip Berlet, and all the people parroting them. King and Berlet must have been "stoned" on lots of dope when they were coming to the absurd position that followers of FDR and MLK are "fascists."
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or read "Nazis and Good Neighbors: The United States Campaign against the Germans of Latin America in World War II." Theres a great review of the book by Michaela Hoenicke Moore , Department of History, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill at
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in 1937 the country was no where near recovery from where it was in 1929; (2) the 1937-1942 five year slide was worse than the three year slide from 1929-1932. None of these article clearly articulate that. Most economic analysts agree, the
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The current main image of FDR is a bit blurry around the edges. The fireplace image is okay, but it's not a closeup of the face. Can we get a combination of the two? Perhaps some US government website has free images of former presidents?
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I think in sum that these two sources support my case more than yours. I will try to write a more concise paragraph based on these sources - bearing in mind that this is supposed to be a biographical article about FDR, not an article on
234:. The second chart is probably more accurate vis-a-vis living standards. See also "during the Great Bear Market from 1929 to 1942...on April 28, 1942, the DJIA was still at only 92.92, 76% below its September 3, 1929, high of 381.17.ā
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Sources? Are you seriously telling us that US deported American citizens to Nazi Germany in wartime? How exactly could the US deport people to Germany during the war? I will need to see some pretty good evidence for these claims.
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that scans the entire period) the Dow did not get back to the level it was at in 1929 til 1949 (160 pts on the Dow). And conversely, most people who lived through the entire ordeal will agree, it was not til about 1949 that
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I accept that Ebel is a source for the transfer of German nationals from Latin America to the US. Again, however, the numbers were very small. Your source, Moore, says that 4,000 Germans were transfered to the US, out of
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comparison terms, the nation had emerged from the 1929-32 crash. And aside, I am not really complaining about POV, personally I think on the face of it anyone can see the contradictions within the articles.
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We have yet to see any source for the statement that Germans were transferred from any Latin American country to the US during the war. Unless such source is produced, I intend deleting that statement.
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section, I feel that the violation of the civil rights of up to a million Europeans and European-Americans is rather significant, and is at least worth a couple sentences. But I guess thats just me
94:"Cured the depression" is fantasy; the 1937-43 depression was worse than the 1929-32, and most probably the result of massive government intrusion into the private economy which stunted growth. The
926:. I think that FDR was a great leader, but does not have anything to do with the merit of my argument that the intro is no place to include every accusation by every FDR-hating historian.
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I removed the term "left-liberals" because. in fact, left liberals hated him because he saved capitalism in America. He was much more of a hero to the more mainstream liberals.
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superpower and the factories were running again by 1950 to keep dad employed while junior went off to get killed in Korea and help the economic recovery continue. The
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Are the Japanese a race unto themselves? Chinese and others of the same Asian race were not interned. It seems that "national origin" was the main basis. -
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528:, close to being contemporaneous (probabably based upon 1958 data). They are a little disappointing in that they only cover the 1920-1940 period.
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and used economic coercion, i.e. threatened embargos or tariffs to get them to comply with U.S. foreign policy objects. Cursory research provides
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he suggested a refugee quota of 27,000 German and Austrian Jews per year, at a time when up to 5 million Jews were trying to escape from Europe.
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is patently rejected by pro-growth supply siders whose fundemental premise is population growth and economic growth are invariably unseparable.
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Perhaps the subheading "The Japanese-American issue" should be renamed "Internments", seeing it also deals with German & Italian persons.
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formula had been so successful in the 40's and 50's by the 1960's the policy of perpetual war to keep dad working in the factory while the
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people did not regain their pre-1929 living standards until after 1949, but there were many others (ie, blacks, marginal farmers) who were
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better off during the war, when there was full employment and guaranteed markets for farm products, than they had been during the 1920s.
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duh, thanks for the help. Point is, record keeping and even economic definitions then where not what they are today. By using the
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a refugee quota of 27,000 German and Austrian Jews per year, at a time when up to 5 million Jews were trying to escape from Europe"
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Well it is true that as time went on the popular enthusiasm for the New Deal diminished, as it does for any enterprise. In the
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Problem with the above is it links two separate subjects as if they were one; as to Latin America, maybe FDR was in bed with
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Roosevelt also forced several Latin American countries to send their German aliens to internment camps in the United States.
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observations around New York City. No one knows what it actually was in Arkansas or Oklahoma. Or Gross output figures (
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in 1932 and 1937 (the 1937-1942 recession spanned 5 years unlike the 1929-1932 recession); followed by the classic
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New Deal, but frankly admitted it hadn't been fair to all and promised (or tried) to redress the grievances with a
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The official estimated death toll in this period is about 15 million dead of starvation of total 40 million death
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Um, the last time I looked liberals are in favour of capitalism. People who oppose capitalism are socialists.
500:(seems collectivization has always been the victim of drought, famine, etc). Quoting from the wiki article:
696:"At a time when 5 million Jews were seeking emigration from Europe, Roosevelt proposed legislation that...
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Well, I thought you were a right winger, Nobs01. The Fair Deal quote kind of gave that away, I thought.
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than the passage currently there. If you want to write an article on this topic you are free to do so.
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Adam: Speaking off the cuff, I vaguely recall there may have been humanitarian exchanges through the
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extremely expensive, or built by the government (usually for military purposes). Again, thanks.
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factual reliability of anything emanating from the Chomsky family, but I am open to persuasion.
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evident from 1942 on; then the topping out from 1966 to 1982 with the classic Keynsian model of
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Well, theres lots of evidence of Latin American German Aliens being sent to our camps. Check
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spawned by the aforementioned thesis. None of these articles articulates that clearly. All (
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smuggling their odious fascist cult into public respectability is particularly disgusting.
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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The internment of the Japanese was "race based"; this should be clearly stated.
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Thanks for those links. I note that the first link (Ebel) says that there were
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is repeated from 1979-1982. After Keynsianism is rejected by economists (
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Industrial Average (which is practically the only measurement available in
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extended loans was obviously a political decision, made by the Treasury.
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people of Japanese descent, regardless of citizenship, in California.
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economic theory. In fact the man for whom it was named graduated from
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between 1959-1961. Can anyone upload this picture for me. Thnks.
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Here's a link that actually works that shows the prosperity of the
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and Dow adjusted to constant dollars relative to the price of gold
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Treatment of enemy aliens in the United States during World War II
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Coincidentally with some other parallel work I found this from the
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I have no objection to Nobs's rewording of the refugee paragraph.
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http://www.sharelynx.com/chartsfixed/115yeardowgoldratio.gif
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Interesting you should say that. I thought my criticism of
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into the address bar you come close to the real picture.
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was in fact an admission the New Deal had not been fair.
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New_Deal#World_War_II_and_the_end_of_the_Great_Depression
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in 1932 (at the pit of the Depression) with a degree in
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is applied, one can see relative growth without the
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http://www.sharelynx.com/chartsfixed/USDJINDlog.gif
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http://www.sharelynx.com/chartsfixed/USDJINDlog.gif
109:The article doesn't say he cured the Depression.
698:(fill in the blank with proper sourcing)", or "
740:China, Mexico, other Latin American countries
714:subject I haven't considered for many years.
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700:Roosevelt issued an Executive decree that...
588:is an interesting tidbit, but can the term "
100:New_Deal#The_recession_of_1937_and_recovery
356:, essentially a New Deal that was "Fair".
730:The selection of countries to which the
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44:Do not edit the contents of this page.
617:important, underrated subject. Thanks
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724:National Bureau of Economic Research
656:) as perhaps an acceptable source.
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450:. If you cut & paste this
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121:. What you have is in fact a
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556:Civil Rights and Refugeess
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751:may sound better than
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482:Malthusian catastrophe
399:Malthusian catastrophe
379:Malthusian catastrophe
98:never was "cured" See
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117:Continue reading the
42:of past discussions.
857:Well I'm sorry, but
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902:
895:
891:
890:
889:
888:
884:
880:
879:
878:
874:
872:
868:
864:
860:
852:
848:
847:
846:
845:
839:
837:
833:
831:
825:
822:
816:
814:
809:
804:
800:
799:
794:
790:
783:
778:
775:
774:
770:
766:
762:
758:
754:
750:
747:
743:
742:, and Russia.
741:
737:
733:
728:
727:
725:
721:
720:
719:
717:
712:
707:
705:
701:
697:
689:
688:
687:
685:
679:
678:
672:
670:
659:
655:
651:
650:Aviva Chomsky
647:
643:
642:
640:
637:
635:
633:
628:
627:
626:
620:
615:
614:
613:
612:
606:
604:
595:
591:
587:
585:
582:
581:
580:
576:
574:
566:
563:
562:
561:
555:
553:
551:
546:
545:
538:Left Liberals
537:
535:
534:
531:
527:
524:
519:
517:
513:
506:
503:
502:
501:
499:
495:
491:
487:
484:there also.
483:
479:
475:
465:
460:
459:
457:
453:
449:
445:
441:
436:
432:
427:
426:
425:
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411:
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404:
400:
396:
392:
388:
384:
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376:
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367:
359:
355:
351:
346:
342:
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340:
339:
336:
328:
324:
320:
316:
312:
309:
305:
301:
297:
293:
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287:
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280:
276:
275:
274:
272:
263:
259:
255:
251:
247:
243:
238:
236:
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229:
225:
224:
223:
221:
217:
213:
204:
199:
195:
190:
186:
182:
181:
180:
178:
169:
164:
163:
162:
160:
157:
148:
144:
140:
136:
132:
128:
124:
120:
116:
115:
114:
112:
107:
105:
101:
97:
89:
83:
80:
78:
75:
73:
70:
67:
63:
61:
58:
57:
49:
45:
41:
40:
35:
28:
27:
19:
962:
935:
906:
903:POV fighting
875:
866:
862:
858:
856:
840:
834:
826:
820:
817:
812:
807:
805:
802:
787:
765:quid pro quo
764:
760:
756:
752:
748:
739:
729:
708:
699:
695:
694:
680:
673:
665:
654:Noam Chomsky
629:
624:
611:Morrison1917
607:
599:
589:
583:
578:
569:
564:
559:
547:
541:
520:
509:
504:
471:
443:
418:
365:
363:
349:
345:Earl Browder
332:
319:World War II
292:trickle down
267:
254:conscription
215:
211:
208:
173:
152:
108:
93:
65:
43:
37:
821:1.5 million
525:Era charts
383:stagflation
302:, idolized
258:Vietnam war
125:within the
36:This is an
808:60 million
803:In reply:
796:Germany.
571:separated.
523:Depression
448:Depression
387:double dip
375:double dip
289:supplyside
286:Reagenomic
246:unemployed
198:employment
123:Depression
950:Cognition
928:Cognition
761:persuaded
749:"induced"
711:Red Cross
486:Frank Coe
435:recession
407:Socialist
395:Reaganism
354:Fair Deal
300:Economics
279:Keynesian
242:Keynesian
189:real time
185:Dow Jones
143:Fair Deal
82:ArchiveĀ 5
77:ArchiveĀ 4
72:ArchiveĀ 3
66:ArchiveĀ 2
60:ArchiveĀ 1
910:WP:POINT
474:New Deal
440:New Deal
403:Democide
391:Friedman
372:Keynsian
311:Democrat
308:New Deal
282:New Deal
250:exported
135:New Deal
894:Willmcw
753:suduced
410:slavery
321:), the
154:one...
39:archive
914:Friday
883:Nobs01
851:Nobs01
769:Nobs01
757:forced
716:Nobs01
704:Nobs01
691:order:
658:Nobs01
639:Nobs01
619:Nobs01
594:Nobs01
590:forced
573:Nobs01
530:Nobs01
512:Nobs01
456:Nobs01
414:Nobs01
358:Nobs01
327:Nobs01
262:Nobs01
248:where
203:Nobs01
168:Nobs01
147:Nobs01
137:, and
104:Nobs01
959:image
759:, or
478:China
16:<
966:Joy
939:Adam
871:Adam
836:Adam
782:Adam
684:Adam
669:Adam
632:1939
603:Adam
550:Adam
444:some
422:Adam
335:john
271:Adam
252:via
220:Adam
216:much
212:some
177:Adam
156:john
111:Adam
912:.
832:.
813:all
630:In
494:Mao
490:IMF
464:172
431:GDP
350:New
304:FDR
131:FDR
964:--
755:,
518:.
412:.
260:.
133:,
102:.
767:.
338:k
159:k
50:.
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