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1940:, the page about Dunkerque-class and Gneisenau-class warships (p.79), is referred as «The "Little" Battleships». Henri Le Masson, who is one of the most well known French experts in warships, from W.W.II to the 1970s, wrote in his 1969 book «The French Navy» (Volume I. Navies of the Second World War. London: Macdonald.
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The
British were wrong, Jordan & Dumas are clear on that point. That you don't like it is not sufficient justification to remove sourced content, particularly if all you have to point to are contemporaneous statements from politicians seeking to justify their own actions (i.e., little better than
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It was far from a kind request to follow the
British Squadron, and on the evening of July 3, there were one thousand French sailors dead in the wreck of their battleship. Admiral Somerville was knowing what he has been ordered to do and was very reluctant to do it. Admiral Dudley North, Flag Officer
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A ship that is armed like a battleship but armoured only against cruisers, and is intended for use against commerce raiders, is clearly a battlecruiser and not a battleship. A genuine battleship would have an armour belt that is about as thick as the calibre of its own guns; Dunkerque's armour belt
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In
European waters, the potential enemy was Germany, which was intended to attack the commercial maritime roads, and the Dunkerque class was an answer to the German Deutschland pocket battleship. And it have been difficult to convince the French Parliament of the need of a 26,500 tons battleship to
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The article indicated that the
British attacked because they "misinterpret the terms of the armistice as providing the Germans access" to the fleet. This is incorrect. The British were aware of the terms of the armistice but did not believe that it provided sufficient assurance: they took the view
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About the "blind cases of xenophobia from French officers towards
British officers for the outcomes of the battle for and defeat of France in 1940", I have not read anything documented on this, but it is true that there were some warnings of the French Admiralty, about the British attitude, at the
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Moreover, about the documented cases of French officers not accepting the individual
British Naval officers sent to negotiate with them, it is true that Admiral Gensoul, Flag Officer of the Squadron moored at Mers-el-Kebir, first refused, in the morning of July 3, to discuss with Captain Cedric
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Having read this article one could question how neutral the commentary within is, when it covers the circumstances of the attack upon the franch ships in
Algeria by the British Royal Navy. Indeed as stated, the aim of the attack was to sink the ships, but the initial visit upon the ships by the
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The period during which the
Dunkerque class was designed, between 1930 and 1932, was this of the preparation of the Second Naval Treaty of London, during which it has been thought that the limitations of naval armements might be enforced, more strictly than after the Treaty of Washington, with a
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return, is linked to the
Sudetenland crisis which is obviously wrong, as the Munich Agreement occured late September 1938. There is possibly a confusion with the occupation of Checoslovakia, beyond the Sudetenland, namely the creation of Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, in mid-March
1353:"Initially, the French sought a reply to the Italian Trento-class cruisers of 1925, but all proposals were rejected. A 17,500-ton cruiser was inadequate against the old Italian battleships" - were the ships needed to counter cruisers or old battleships? This wording is a bit unclear.
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When Japan and Italy announced that they had decided not to sign a new Treaty, in 1934, and
Mussolini announced the building of two 35,000 tons battleships, it was clear that the Dunkerque class was outclassed, and it became evident that battleships of at least 35,000 tons had do be
1443:"On 11 December, Dunkerque and the cruiser Gloire escorted a shipment of part of the Banque de France's gold reserve to Canada." - do we know what ship carried the gold? It seems odd that it wasn't embarked on the warships (which I think was the British practice at this time).
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I've reverted your edit. They were 36,000 tonnes full load, which is considerably smaller than the North Carolina or Nelson classes; they were just 26,500 tons standard compared to 35,000 for both Nelson and North Carolina. North Carolina was over 46,000 tons full load.
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I think that you need some material noting that the Sudetenland Crisis didn't lead to war and tensions dropped for a while; the transition between the French fleet being on a war footing to making routine cruises to attend various ceremonies is rather sudden.
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I feel that in the interests of accuracy, this all; in some form; needs mention, one can not deplore the attack on their once allies by the British ships as unfortunate in the extreme; and clearly this is the intent of the original author of this article.
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in the battle of Jutland. So, it was considered hazardous to allocate an important part of the global battleship displacement (70,000t from the 175,000t allocated by the Washington treaty) to ships only able to «kill cruisers». I completely agree with
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the French Navy was not wishing to have battleships to fight against the British Nelson class battleships, or the U.S.Navy Colorado class battleships, as nobody could imagine in 1930, a war between France and the United Kingdom or the United States of
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What's with the "only"s in the last sentence? "The remains of the ship (not more than some 15,000 tonnes only...) were refloated in 1945 and sold for final demolition in 1958 only." Can they just be removed or is there some intended meaning there?
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There is no mention of the much documented and oft quoted deadline for action handed to the French, then there are documented cases of French officers not accepting the individual british Naval officers sent to negotiate with them.
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The Dunkerque battleship class is the only one of the battleship classes built after the Naval Treaty of Washington, with a tonnage nearly 10,000 tons under the Treaty of Washington limit of 35,000 tons. There are several reasons:
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Still close to the Nelson class´s 34,000/38,000 tons, perhabs we should mention the guncaliber instead of the ship´s size? Even the pre-WW1 Orions had bigger guns. Or the rather thin armour -four inches less that the Nelsons.
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I would have corrected it but I don't know how to write it so that it would be accurate, but I do know that it can't make sense as stated. I would prefer that the original writer correct it, if not, I will delete the line.
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For the protection of the French Colonies, and particularly Indo-China, French Navy trusted more on ocean-going submarines or cruisers, and proved it in the Battle of Koh Chang (February 1941) against the Thai Navy.
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1497:"The Italians took control of the wreck, but they found her a total loss, and so they began to dismantle Dunkerque" - this sentence is rather fragmented: I'd suggest tweaking it to remove the repeated 'they'
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class, with the same speed, and a little heavier displacement, had a 12-13 inches thick armoured belt, but 11-inch main artillery caliber, with 336 kg APC shells, againt 570 kg for the Dunkerque-class's
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and is not permitted on Knowledge (XXG). A number of sources call these ships battleships, and that's what we use. If you want to present a case that they are more frequently called battlecruisers in
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I removed the statement the ships were "Not quite the size of a full battleship". With 36,000 tonnes they definitely were as big as contemporary BBs, like the North Carolina or Lord Nelson class.
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unless the ships must be sunk, and Admiral Somerville had three battleships and one aircraft carrier to execute this task. The day before, French warships, moored in Portsmouth, had been seized.
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similarly did with German armoured cruisers, in the Battle of Falklands Islands, but would not have been able to counter 305Â mm gun armed battleships, as the same HMS
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Indeed there are documented cases of blind xenophobia from French officers towards British officers for the outcomes of the battle for and defeat of France in 1940.
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which had been designed in response to the first German armoured vessels, those of the "Deutschland" class, were more a battlecruiser type than real battlesships.»
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Please provide a translation for "1ère Division de Ligne" (though this is pretty obvious to anyone with a basic understanding of both naval terminology and French)
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However, the initial imputous on the Britsh approaching the French at anchor was not to destroy them, quite the opposite, this is not delivered by this article.
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at Gibraltar had told what he thought of the Operation Catapult, "Boomerang rather than Catapult". Nobody had any doubt on the end of the operation.
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was stricken on 1955, March 22nd, and sold for scrap one month and half later, on May 5th of the same year. But stricken on 1955, September 15th,
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Amended to eliminate the offending sentence. It's sufficient to say that the British were concerned that the ships might fall into German hands.
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Were the Dunkerque-class ships battleships or battlecruisers ? This was often discussed, on the French Knowledge (XXG), for instance.
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for a wording as : « A 17,500t ship could handle the new Washington heavy cruisers, but couldn't take on the older dreadnoughts.»
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Thanks for reviewing the article, Nick. I'll remove the image until it can be clarified. Everything else should be addressed.
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cruiser was escorting her. However in the Robert Dumas book cited (p.68), it is indicated that gold was shipped on both ships.
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very moment of signature of the Armistice, on June 24, 1940. But the anglophobia of the French Navy begins with Mers-el-Kebir.
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Holland, sent by Admiral Sommerville, as he was not of his rank. He accepted later, about noon. It is the only case I know.
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In the Robert Dumas's book (Dumas, Robert (2001) (in French). Les cuirassés Dunkerque et Strasbourg. Paris: Marine Éditions.
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seems unclear - it appears that the photo was taken from a website, with someone other than its creator claiming ownership.
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battleship tonnage limit of 25,000 tons, and a main artillery caliber limit of 14 inches, instead 35,000 tons and 16 inches.
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606:-related articles on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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All this can be reminded, and discussed in articles on Mers-el-Kebir, Operation Catapult, and so on. In an article about
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left Brest carrying gold to Canada..." - I had assumed this meant escorting a convoy, but you're probably right.
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Great work - As it's safe to assume that you'll follow up on my third point above, I'll pass the article.
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This is a really good article, and I found it to be an interesting read - great work. My comments are:
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In Breyer, Siegfried (1973). Battleships and Battle Cruisers 1905–1970. London: Macdonald and Jane's.
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did - I'll ask him for clarification. I'm assuming the idea is that 17,500t ship could handle the
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The article uses a combination of day-month and month-day dates - please standadise on one option
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1419:. Dunkerque), (p. 67)the sortie of the French Atlantic Fleet, from 14 to 16 April, to cover the
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You have not deleted the line, but you did the good edit, changing «aboard» to «alongside».
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The 17,000t battleship would have been able to counter the 10,000tW cruisers, as HMS
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For what it's worth, I've massively overhauled the article and it should be ready for
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that the Germans could break it at any moment and seize the fleet. See, e.g.,
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https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1940/jun/25/war-situation
1963:(battlecruisers). (...) Despite their official rating on the Navy list, the
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on 1958, September 9th, because no buyer was found for her wreck earlier.
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3) or to steer to West Indies or to the U.S.A. under British control
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Knowledge (XXG) featured topics Battleships of France good content
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And it only took me two and a half months to get around to it ;)
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shipping gold in December 1939. From a French languaged forum
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1) to join the British forces, and to steer to a British base
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GA-Class Operation Majestic Titan (Phase I) articles
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In my library, I did not find a reference about the
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File:Croiseur de bataille Strasbourg 03-07-1940.jpg
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166:This is the
156:Good article
155:
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89:please do so
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43:please do so
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1305:transcluded
1169:12.30.97.36
1045:—Preceding
295:free images
178:not a forum
2054:Categories
1969:Strasbourg
1953:Strasbourg
1649:verifiable
1463:, and the
1403:destroyers
1373:Invincible
1369:Invincible
1258:Authorship
1244:GA toolbox
1185:Strasbourg
971:TomTheHand
940:TomTheHand
613:Shipwrecks
576:Shipwrecks
81:good topic
37:under the
2037:Parsecboy
1986:Gneisenau
1982:Dunkerque
1965:Dunkerque
1949:Dunkerque
1908:Parsecboy
1766:edit wars
1548:Parsecboy
1520:Parsecboy
1461:Dunkerque
1317:Reviewer:
1281:Templates
1272:Reviewing
1237:GA Review
1224:Parsecboy
1191:was sold
1189:Dunkerque
1090:Dunkerque
604:shipwreck
235:if needed
218:Be polite
168:talk page
1967:and the
1880:unsigned
1784:contain
1782:Does it
1578:WP:WIAGA
1339:Comments
1330:contribs
1286:Criteria
1210:Overhaul
1177:contribs
1165:unsigned
1059:contribs
1047:unsigned
989:America.
384:European
380:Maritime
346:GA-class
203:get help
176:This is
174:article.
145:Promoted
51:reassess
1839:Overall
1768:, etc:
1737:neutral
1622:fiction
1362:Trentos
904:on the
667:history
640:on the
549:Phase I
301:WPÂ refs
289:scholar
108:Process
1853:Nick-D
1806:Nick-D
1786:images
1759:stable
1757:Is it
1734:Is it
1701:Is it
1642:Is it
1624:, and
1614:layout
1585:Is it
1534:Nick-D
1506:Nick-D
1465:Gloire
1455:Gloire
1448:Gloire
1320:Nick-D
1220:WP:FAC
1051:Xelous
1008:built.
877:France
868:France
824:France
388:French
352:scale.
273:Google
130:Listed
111:Result
77:series
1989:ones.
1626:lists
1424:1939.
1307:from
1216:WP:GA
785:Ships
743:Ships
714:-None
684:To Do
677:purge
672:watch
316:JSTOR
277:books
231:Seek
2041:talk
2025:talk
1995:talk
1942:ISBN
1935:ISBN
1912:talk
1888:talk
1857:talk
1810:talk
1646:and
1610:lead
1552:talk
1538:talk
1524:talk
1510:talk
1473:talk
1430:talk
1414:ISBN
1386:talk
1324:talk
1228:talk
1201:talk
1193:only
1173:talk
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1132:talk
1106:talk
1055:talk
1014:talk
768:Ship
662:edit
309:FENS
283:news
220:and
105:Date
79:, a
1764:No
1683:C.
1655:A.
1606:MoS
1604:B.
896:Low
632:Low
323:TWL
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