Talk:Hanukkah/Archive 5

199:, in which Antiochus IV lays dying of a painful and humiliating bowel disease, on his return from Persia in defeat after trying to rob temples there. I wish Lendering would give better citations rather than making me go hunting. Apparently, on his way to sack Jerusalem, he fell sick, and in an attempt to appease God or the gods - or whomever or whatever he worshiped other than himself - he rescinded the decree, declaring Jerusalem at liberty, its citizens of equal privelege with those in Athens, and promised to restore all the golden vessels he had looted and to personally fund the sacrifices. This would have been spring or summer 164 BCE. Lendering doesn't say where he gets the date April 11th. Does anyone know? I don't think it matters. Anyway, Antiochus died a miserable death. Immediately after, 830:

eight. And that is why, three times daily during Hanukkah, we add the Al Hanisim—for the miracles—prayer to the Amidah, which begins by speaking of the military victory but ends by saying: “…Your children came to Your holy abode and…purified Your Temple and…kindled lights in the courtyards of Your holy place. And they established these eight days of Hanukkah in order to give thanks and praise to Your great name.” In short, this prayer makes a distinction between the means and the end. The military victory was the means, which we do not celebrate, because the means are not the point. Instead the prayer explains what the military victory is pointing to—and the answer is spiritual renewal.

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completely, but hoped to establish a modus vivendi between the Hellenizing Jews, who had maintained their loyalty to the king, and the Jewish insurgents. Lysias' plans were undoubtedly that the Maccabean rebels should return to their allegiance to the Syrian king on the assurance that they should not be punished for their rebellion and should be left free to perform their religious rites according to the Mosaic laws. On the other hand, Menelaus was to retain the office of high priest and his position as the representative of the central government. When peace was established, the direct intervention of Seleucid military forces would no longer be needed.

661:, or prayerbook. Every Jewish child knows this. "For the miracles ... You fought their fight, You judged their judgment, You avenged their cause; You delivered the mighty into the hands of the weak, the many into the hands of the few, the impure into the hands of the pure, the evil into the hands of the righteous .. etc." In short, Hannukah is a celebration of miraculous military victories, but it is attributed to the Almighty working through the Maccabees, not to the Maccabees themselves cum Jewish warrior nationalists. I think it is this latter emphasis that 154:, but does not cite it or tell us where to find it. His only citations are two secondary sources. When he refers to 1st and 2nd Maccabees at length, it is to allege minor differences in chronology between them, and he does this without citing chapters. Also, his claim that 1 Maccabees is apocalyptic is a mischaracterization; on the contrary 1 Maccabees has very little theological speculation, and no prophecy, no first person voice, no personal stories; and is nothing like the book of Daniel in style or content. That is why it wasn't included in the 720:

the people of Israel to accept Greek culture and beliefs instead of mitzvah observance and belief in G‑d. Against all odds, a small band of faithful but poorly armed Jews, led by Judah the Maccabee, defeated one of the mightiest armies on earth, drove the Greeks from the land, reclaimed the Holy Temple in Jerusalem and rededicated it to the service of G‑d. ... To commemorate and publicize these miracles, the sages instituted the festival of Chanukah.}} Stress on "these miracles" plural. Will copy this source into the article.

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little said about this fight compared to the earlier ones against the armies of Gorgias and Lysias, and they didn't oppose the entry of the Maccabees into Jerusalem, and its not mentioned at all in 2 Macc. I think we can conclude that it wasn't a significant battle, so using the word "re-capture", while technically accurate in a broader sense, may mistakenly imply that there was a seige or a great battle for the city, which isn't attested in either source.

1091:(KJV and RSV) to describe the event. Both 1st and 2nd Maccabees accounts have them entering Jerusalem and the temple unopposed: Lysias and the main army had returned to Antioch, and Maccabeus and his company had only to clear out the garrison in the tower; there was no siege. The main early battles were Emmaus and Bethsura. Not that this diplomatic victory of Jerusalem, in any way diminishes the significance of the early military victories - of the 355:

Furthermore, all Jews were allowed to 'use their expenditures and laws as previously', which presumably means that, besides religious freedom, the old system of taxation with a fixed annual tribute collected by the Jews themselves was reestablished and the proportional land-tax from 167 B.C.E. abolished. ... Emboldened by a series of successes he finally, towards the end of the year, felt strong enough to enter Jerusalem and restore the defiled Temple.

31: 307:, especially not w/o an edit summary, or people may stop assuming good faith. In 1 & 2 Maccabees, both "Israel" and "Judaea" are used, the former more often in reference to the people, and the latter more often in reference to the territory. "Palestine" is appropriate for late antiquity, medieval and thereafter. We should discuss this on the other talk page, where it was an extended discussion in 2011 and 2012. 1118:: The books of the Maccabees, Josephus, the Talmud, the Siddur, and Mishneh Torah - I've added several citations from these in the main article. A Knowledge article is not its own source, but editors should do their due diligence to research the sources cited there, before making further demands on the talk page. Further requests for citations on this question are probably either 1259: 255:, that we were overemphasizing human agency in the miracles of the early military victories at Emmaus and Bethsura, by implying that Judah Maccabee and his fighers "re-captured" Jerusalem, whereas both 1 & 2 Maccabees emphasize fasting, prayer, supplication and divine agency in enabling the victories, the second book more so. 861:, they made search and found only one cruse of oil which lay with the seal of the kohen gadol (high priest), but which contained sufficient for one day's lighting only; yet a miracle was wrought therein, and they lit therewith for eight days. The following year these were appointed a Festival with Hallel and thanksgiving." 692:, not even as an integral part of the masechet), and it doesn't give out too much information, but it focuses on how to light the Hannukkah Menorah. The Scroll of Antiochus goes on details, but this is even more problematic than the book of Maccabees and appeared long after Hannukkah was already instituted. In my opinion, the 688:. Even assuming that Josephus or the Book of the Maccabees are reliable as historic documents (which I don't necessarily dispute), it's pretty obvious that the sages didn't have in mind those sources when they added Hannukkah to the Jewish calendar. In rabbinic sources it's only mentioned briefly in tractate Shabbat (as a 742:"There miracles" refers to the fact that the oil lasted a whole eight days, hence eight candles. "It's a miracle!" they said after the first day when they noticed that the oil lasted. "Another (part of) miracle!" after the oil hadn't run out even after the second day, and so on. Here is the quote from 1113:

And yes, these miraculous military victories, attributed to the Almighty working through Maccabeus and the Hasidim, are commemorated in the holiday of Hanukkah, along with the miracle of the oil, according to all the sources, and not just the Chabad.org site, or the childrens' picture books I alluded

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thanksgiving prayer emphasizes the military victories - giving thanks to the Almighty for these, and the story in Shabbat 21b records the miracle of the oil. There is no contradiction here. Both of these are aspects of the holiday observance. That is why both should be mentioned in the lead of the

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It is the most plausible view of history we have, spelled out in both Maccabees and in Josephus "The Jewish War". Jona Lendering is only one "historian", not "historians" plural. And according to this one Lendering, Antiochus V Eupator is the one who rescinded the decree while acting as co-regent.

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See for example {{Cite web |url=https://www.chabad.org/holidays/chanukah/article_cdo/aid/102911/jewish/What-Is-Hanukkah.htm |title=What Is Hanukkah? |publisher=Chabad-Lubavitch Media Center |quote=In the second century BCE, the Holy Land was ruled by the Seleucids (Syrian-Greeks), who tried to force

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recounts this: "Now Maccabeus and his company, the Lord guiding them, recovered the temple and the city: .. " (KJV) He describes pulling down the altars, cleansing the temple, praying and beseeching the Lord for mercy, and then on 25th Kislev rejoicing with the feast of tabernacles. And ordaining

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Just a note to say that "Messianic Jews" are Christians by definition. They might have been born Jewish but, by believing in Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, they are automatically Christian. There are several authentic Jewish sources on the web which explain why Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah. The

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It was instituted by the Maccabees themselves as a common statute (1 Macc 4:59, 2 Macc 10:8) not as a torah statute. It was re-instituted (or codified) as a rabbinic statute when the Talmud was compiled. During the long continuum between these points, among the pharisees who observed through the

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According to the other letter at our disposal, the further negotiations with Antiochus IV were entrusted to Menelaus, the high priest, who presumably travelled east to meet the king. The choice of Menelaus clearly indicates that the Seleucid government did not intend to reverse its policy in Judea

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I'm sorry I was baffled by the doubling and then deleting of the 70kb. I do see two constructive edits in addition to your disagreement over source admissibility, the addition of a reference citation and the addition of the History of Palestine infobox. I have no problem with that - it is a shared

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records that Judas Maccabee and his band went up to the temple and saw that it was in disrepair, and mourned, and then he "appointed certain men to fight against those who were in the fortress , until he had cleansed the sanctuary. So he chose priests of blameless conversation ..." There is very

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The sections Debresser referred to does not contain reliable sources. In my opinion, using Bible books, apocrypha, or the Talmud as a source for history is about as intelligent as using Donald Trump's Twitter feed as a source for information about his presidency. Unfortunately, it seems to me that

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In accordance with this scheme, Antiochus IV issued his letter to the gerousia of the Jews and the rest of the people, proclaiming an amnesty for all rebels who returned to their place of residence and took up their previous occupation before the end of Xanthikos 148 S.E. (about March 164 B.C.E.).

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Whilst I appreciate that there are a number of spellings in the Latin alphabet, even just in English, I think that "Chanukah" is not as minor as suggested in the main article. Many words in Hebrew starting with 'chet' are rendered "ch" in English. For example, the Cambridge Dictionary lists it.

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As it is told in the Talmud (Shabbat 21b), when Judah Maccabee entered the desecrated Temple, he discovered only a small vial of oil which had the seal of the Kohen Gadol (the High Priest) certifying it was sanctified for ritual use. There was only enough oil for one night, and yet it burned for

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When they sought to light the Temple's Menorah (the seven-branched candelabrum), they found only a single cruse of olive oil that had escaped contamination by the Greeks. Miraculously, they lit the menorah and the one-day supply of oil lasted for eight days, until new oil could be prepared under

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of the Maccabean revolt, it doesn't specify dates or historic controversies. I really don't understand why Jaredscribe had to change that. If there's no consensus for a new version, I'm planning to restore the old one. It always happens the same around a Jewish holiday. People go on Knowledge to

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Moreover, even if the claim were true that Antiochus (both of them) rescinded the decree prior, it would still be true that the Maccabees recaptured Jerusalem (albeit without a siege), and subsequently rededicated the temple. Or would you prefer "re-occupied" Jerusalem? Or would "re-take", or

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Do we really need a whole section discussing the difference between ‘Ch’ sound and ‘H’ sounds? This is not adding anything specifically about the festival. It belongs somewhere else. IMO, it just needs 2 lines: “It can be spelt Hanukkah or Chanukah, with Hanukkah being the most common” Agreed?

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read: "Hanukkah is a Jewish festival commemorating the rededication of the Second Temple in Jerusalem at the time of the Maccabean Revolt against the Seleucid Empire." It was Jaredscribe who changed it so that it now includes "the recovery of Jerusalem and subsequent rededication of the Second

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Knowledge is not a reliable source. The sources I have consulted do not state that Hanukkah was instituted by rabbis to commemorate the capture of Jerusalem. They state that Hanukkah was instituted by the Maccabees themselves (or their supporters) to commemorate the rededication of the temple.

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If this is his philosophy of historical research, it is absurd and defeatist and assumes (incorrectly, I think) that historians who disagree and believe, as the majority do, that facts can be known, and that they really are important, are quacks. There are some things that we can discern with

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Citation 58, in the academic sources section is used to justify "The miracle of the oil is widely regarded as a legend and its authenticity has been questioned since the Middle Ages." This citation cites Skolnik, Berenbaum, Fred, Michael (2007). Encyclopaedia Judaica, Volume 9. Granite Hill

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I think it is really simple. The festival of Hanukkah was instituted by the rabbis to commemorate both the re-capture of Jerusalem and the re-dedication of the Temple. Which is precisely what the new version says better than the previous. Other problems can be resolved otherwise.

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article, and from a single POV, the same one expressed here - that Maccabees is unreliable - and that the region should be anachronistically called Palestine. I don't see any constructive edits recently to either article, from either of you. Should we treat you a single entity?

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I changed my mind. The section may be a bit oversized, but it is noteworthy, and has quite a few sources. About the "glottal sound not present in English", that is there already, and should be kept, as being one of the most important sentences in that paragraph.

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Maybe that is my English, but "recovered" sounds wrong to me. Even f they didn't have to fight for it, but any territory that was recovered - as you say - during a military campaign, I would call "recaptured". In any case, I don't feel strongly about

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No, hedging your bets by writing "as recounted in the Books of the Maccabees I and II, and The Jewish War by Flavius Josephus" is not acceptable since it contradicts scholarship. It also incorrectly defines what Hanukkah commemorates, which is the

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Harvard’s Cohen said he believes that the rabbis of the Talmud came up with the miracle of oil in order to “demilitarize” Hanukkah. “It gave the rabbis, who were uncomfortable with the Maccabees, a way to say they respected Hanukkah,” Cohen

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It would be good to add this spelling to the options at the beginning of the introduction to the article, but I cannot see how to do that - perhaps somebody can help? I have not amended the body of the main article, for now, anyway...

1010:, that may be partially true, but as the articles point out, it celebrates a military victory. Later on, the focus became the rededication of the Temple. I'm not terribly concerned with the prior version, I think that is basically OK. 158:. It is history, not prophecy. In short, this particular article doesn't meet the standard of professional history. It does not seem to have been peer reviewed or published in a history journal, and isn't a more reliable source than 432:

The value of the study of antiquity lies not in the reconstruction of facts, which, after all, only have a currency in the eyes of nationalists, religious cranks, and other quack historians. Nor is the historiographic discussion

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theory that until the 20th century, there has never been an autonomous Jewish state centered in Jerusalem. But maybe we should take the assertion out of neutral WikiVoice and attribute it to "1 Maccabees" and "Josephus"?

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Solution: it is in volume 8 at the specified place. Quote: "All these stories seem to be nothing but leg- ends, and the authenticity of the “oil cruse” story was already questioned in the Middle Ages." I'll fix the typo.

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1 Macc. I also see that he is an accomplished historian. I wish the citations in his article were better. I remain skeptical of his work because dis despairing conclusion to the article basically gives up on history.

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I wasn't claiming that to be a source. I was referring you to that information for your knowledge. Because you asked such a basic question, that I understood you need some background. For some sources, see below.

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is simply continuing this edit war, and his contribution should get reverted, and he deserves getting seriously blamed for his contribution of this edit war, and he should get hindered from continuing this edit

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I feel that whatever could be said about that paragraph, it is a good idea for the whole article to consistently use one of the two spellings. The current situation where both are used is just confusing.

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The previous version was uninformative and unnecessarily obscure. The current version reflects current consensus of primary sources, scholars and is controversial (of course) only with respect to the

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Feast of booths seems to be a messianic or Christian term (the reference listed is to Catholic translations) and it feels incorrect to reference it so frequently on a post about a Jewish holiday

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it as a common statute for future years. No mention of the miracle of the oil, which is only mentioned later in the Talmud. 1 Macc doesn't record this proclamation rescinding the decree.

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passages in the Hebrew Bible that supposedly presage the coming of Jesus, commonly cited by missionaries, are post facto Christian interpretations. For a Jew the Messiah has yet to come.

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change a perfectly good article talking about the current holiday (which explains it in a general and neutral manner) and end up messing everything for the sake of "improving" it.--

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More than just Messianic Jews, many Christians observe Hanukkah since Jesus did, and since the events commemorated are part of the shared history of Christians and Jews.

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Reconsidering, I'm convinced the KJV & RSV translation "recovered" Jerusalem and the temple is better than "re-captured". Hopefully this addresses the concerns of

1284:. Page 332 talks about German occupation, and has nothing to do with Hanukkah nor this miracle. I found no mention of this miracle anywhere in the encyclopaedia. 1143:

Regarding what you say that editor's should do their job before removing information or making demands, I strongly agree with you. Unfortunately, the letter of the

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On this subject, the history section should be expanded with information about the scholia to Megillat Taanit. (I'll try and do it this week, but if I forget.)

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This is of course the traditional view as spelled out in the Maccabees. But according to historians, Antiochus IV rescinded his edict in the spring of 164 BCE

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oral law, it gained the status of mitzvah d'rabbanan. This is what happens over time. Things reoccur, and traditions consolidate. Its not a contradiction.

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Hanukkah, or the Festival of Rededication, celebrates the rededication of the Temple in Jerusalem after its defilement by the Syrian Greeks in 164 BCE.

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is, fwiw, an accomplished historian so attacking his article is no use. But you could reread it because the book he claims is apocalyptic is Daniel

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prayer: the Babylonian Talmud, Berachot 28a. Of course, you don't have to be a talmud scholar to know this; you can find the prayer in any Jewish

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should simply get away with his brute force style of continuing that edit war by "creating facts". He does not even bother participating here.--

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Why did you change "recapture" to "recovery"? I am not a native English speaker, but I would say that "recapture" is the better choice here.

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Scroll to the top of this discussion, to see my answer inline. TLDR, Maccabeus and his company "Recovered Jerusalem" is the phrase used in

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No, it's not. "In accordance with this scheme" refers to the previous paragraph in which Antiochus policy towards the Jews are described:

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probability or plausibility, others with relative certainty, and many others that we simply don't know. That is no reason to give up.

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That Hannukah celebrates the miracle of an improbably military victory (among other miracles) is found in the Al HaNissim prayer. And

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Thank you. I had already given up. Maybe the use of dashes is something American? In Dutch, my mother language, I don't remember it.

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is referring not to the wikipedia article, but to the sources given in it, especially the citation given in footnote 26 for the

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The miracle of the oil, and the miracle of improbable military victory, are BOTH celebrated and remembered on Hannukah. The

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history; Just please don't change "Israel" or "Judaea" as it occurs in the article text into an anachronistic "Palestine",

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says that the burden of providing sources for contested information is on the editor who want to include that information.

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Would it be worth mentioning that this represents a glottal sound not present in English? Real question, not rhetorical.

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e miracles"? What do you want to say? You are proposing some other interpretation of the text on the Chabad.org website?

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conditions of ritual purity. To commemorate and publicize these miracles, the sages instituted the festival of Chanukah.

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Responding to edit summaries: although there is no other historical evidence that Mattathius was a High Priest, a

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From being the festival of a military victory, Chanukah became the festival of a spiritual and civilisational one.

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is correctly insisting on it. Thank you for reading this far. I hope we all learned something. Happy Hannukah!

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It seems to me that "recaptured" is better; because the wars and intrigues continued for over 20 years until

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In accordance with what scheme? It sounds like the cambridge history is contemplating various theories.

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Also, both your articles claim that Hanukkah is not about a military victory. Jonathan Sacks writes

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But this here is not "THE American wikipedia", this is the "wikipedia in English". I doubt, that

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I was looking for the original source, and found the whole PDF of this 2007 volume online here:

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Yes that is true, Talmud Shabbat 21b records that. And here is what Talmud Shabbat 21a records:

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the recapture of Jerusalem in the year 164 BCE, and subsequent rededication of the Second Temple

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changed it so that it no longer was about a military victory. Their religion, their choice. :)

462:"an early victory in the Maccabean revolt" (hence the name Hanukkah which means "dedication"). 1398: 1368: 1036: 998: 969:

We also shouldn't change stable versions of articles when there is no consensus to do so. The

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miracles, as does almost every tertiary Jewish source and children's picture book. Its why

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was more general and less problematic. It mentions the rededication of the Jerusalem Temple

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Note the chronology: first the edict then the restoration of the temple. Peter Schäfer in

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neither you nor Debresser will ever "get it" so I don't think we'll see eye to eye here.

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http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia%20Judaica,%20v.%2009%20(Her-Int).pdf

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Knowledge is not a reliable source, but the sources cited in this Knowledge article

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For when the Greeks entered the Sanctuary, they defiled all the oils therein, and

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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Here is but one instance showing that Channukah celebrates a military victory.

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I think that the letter Lendering is referring to, is the proclamation in

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to, or the many contemporary articles by R. Sacks and others quoted by

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article. Thats why the Chabad website tells vignettes about both of

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is (correctly) insisting on, despite his other misunderstanding.

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won autonomy in 140 BCE. Clearly they were still belligerents.

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when the Hasmonean dynasty prevailed against and defeated them

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I see that now, yes, Lendering holds Daniel to be apocalyptic

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the temple was rededicated in December 164. See for example

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Citation for miracle of oil widely regarded as a legend

970: 693: 685: 130: 919:, a quite famous dude. He specifically writes: "The 280:, you are editing in sequence of each other on the 820:" was that the oil lasted for eight days. Here is 915:Do you have any sources? The above is written by 409:The History of the Jews in the Greco-Roman World 150:He refers a letter dated April 11th,164BCE from 1093:weak over the strong, of the few over the many 827: 750: 377: 352: 8: 1354:to this article so far, but quite a few of 1170: 1019:As the articles you linked to points out, 133:was more general and less controversial.-- 927:, because the means are not the point." 348:The Cambridge History of Judaism, Vol. 2 756:Here is a description of Hanukkah from 1429:Yes, agreed. It is simply unnecessary. 982: 978: 762: 530:for starters. I mean, this is basics. 95: 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 129:I actually agree with you this time. 7: 971:longstanding version of this article 162:, or the sources it casts doubt on. 686:This is the worst possible version 178:"return" to Jerusalem be better? 24: 1350:I cannot see any contribution of 500:Do you have a citation for that? 1165:Many Christians observe Hanukkah 29: 1258:Here's a list of more sources: 528:Hanukkah#Early_rabbinic_sources 1371:) 16:51, 30 April 2023 (CEST) 958:or here if you prefer Huffpo. 1: 1341:16:08, 13 December 2022 (UTC) 1319:12:53, 13 December 2022 (UTC) 1305:09:55, 13 December 2022 (UTC) 1294:08:09, 13 December 2022 (UTC) 1266:00:47, 11 December 2022 (UTC) 1253:22:56, 10 December 2022 (UTC) 1157:16:46, 23 December 2020 (UTC) 1132:07:46, 23 December 2020 (UTC) 1109:07:46, 23 December 2020 (UTC) 1079:15:10, 21 December 2020 (UTC) 1041:15:04, 21 December 2020 (UTC) 1015:14:51, 21 December 2020 (UTC) 1003:14:48, 21 December 2020 (UTC) 965:14:00, 21 December 2020 (UTC) 945:13:55, 21 December 2020 (UTC) 911:10:42, 21 December 2020 (UTC) 850:02:05, 21 December 2020 (UTC) 812:00:38, 21 December 2020 (UTC) 782:17:29, 20 December 2020 (UTC) 730:15:54, 20 December 2020 (UTC) 715:11:38, 18 December 2020 (UTC) 675:10:42, 21 December 2020 (UTC) 637:08:26, 23 December 2020 (UTC) 614:10:42, 21 December 2020 (UTC) 599:07:57, 23 December 2020 (UTC) 578:15:54, 20 December 2020 (UTC) 563:19:11, 19 December 2020 (UTC) 540:16:38, 19 December 2020 (UTC) 522:Are you serious? Try reading 518:15:59, 18 December 2020 (UTC) 496:11:20, 18 December 2020 (UTC) 480:03:24, 18 December 2020 (UTC) 456:rededication and purification 446:10:42, 21 December 2020 (UTC) 400:13:50, 21 December 2020 (UTC) 370:10:42, 21 December 2020 (UTC) 346:The same thing is written in 342:02:12, 18 December 2020 (UTC) 317:10:42, 21 December 2020 (UTC) 295:02:12, 18 December 2020 (UTC) 265:10:42, 21 December 2020 (UTC) 240:02:12, 18 December 2020 (UTC) 219:10:42, 21 December 2020 (UTC) 188:02:12, 18 December 2020 (UTC) 172:02:12, 18 December 2020 (UTC) 143:20:43, 17 December 2020 (UTC) 124:20:27, 17 December 2020 (UTC) 88:Assertions in the lead about 1486:22:28, 8 December 2023 (UTC) 1231:Mattathius "the High Priest" 1401:) 15:17, 01 May 2023 (CEST) 1502: 1385:23:15, 30 April 2023 (UTC) 1226:15:59, 4 August 2022 (UTC) 1202:15:45, 4 August 2022 (UTC) 1467:10:43, 5 March 2023 (UTC) 1452:01:03, 5 March 2023 (UTC) 1431:21:03, 4 March 2023 (UTC) 1423:16:44, 3 March 2023 (UTC) 925:which we do not celebrate 694:previous version in lede 524:Hanukkah#Hanerot_Halalu 863: 832: 755: 382: 357: 1408:Alternative Spellings 1346:parenthesis or dashes 855: 42:of past discussions. 1277:Publishers. p. 332. 104:Maccabees and Method 1358:. 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