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785:"Əliyev thus became the first Muslim full member of the Politburo." I really doubt the factual basis for this sentence. As there is also no lack of former high members of the Communist Party who turned out to be devote Orthodox Christians later, the claim to be "first" this or that needs factual evidence about one's beliefs from the time before the fall of USSR to be taken seriously. Then again, everything is possible. Claims that have high propagandistic value are not necessarily untrue, they just need hard evidence before being spread. --
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837:"He also tried but failed to resolve the Nagorno-Karabakh crisis, attempting a military solution in December 1993 that eventually resulted in 16% of Azerbaijani territories under occupation of Armenia and an estimated 30,000 deaths and the displacement of a further 750,000 Azeris. The issue remains unresolved, with Armenian rule continuing in Nagorno-Karabakh and Azerbaijan still hosting several hundred thousand refugees."
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shrines dedicated to Heydar Aliyev can be found in most public buildings. That is, many Azeris would call this article unfairly biased, and would be quite offended at its content. I might add some if I have time about this subject, but wondered what other editors think. It would be nice to give a less completely negative image of a man seen as the father of
Azerbaijan by many Azeris. --
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1736:. Please keep your analysis to yourself and stop saying everything cited by this highly reliable source should be removed or that somehow it's an unreliable source because of a simple presumed mistake in the book about a person's position that supposedly escaped the peer-review process of Routledge too. Also see your talk page for warnings, canvassing isn't allowed on Knowledge (XXG)
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1284:"...proved to be the catalyst that ultimately culminated in his becoming the undisputed leader of Azerbaijan. As such he implemented reforms to curb corruption and gained the trust of his citizens. He came to power at a time when Azerbaijan was in the throes of political and economic crises, and he was able to bring about economic development."
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referencing 3 sources repetitively, clearly aimed at character assassination rather than describing the career of the person from a neutral point of view. Other original research sentences, repetitively claim that he was connected to some "mafia". Please, discuss the material in detail, prior to edits in an encyclopedic manner. Thanks.
2052:“The book is lively and well written. Surely controversial and thus worth reading. As an essay targeted to the public at large, it is a work of culture and finesse. It will make an excellent reference for one of those undergraduate discussions that so usefully open or close a political science, history, or even economics course.”
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1912:. According to the rules, even if a source is generally reliable, a passing mention in that source may not be, and we should go with the sources that are dedicated to the topic of our article. And we see that Perkin is not an expert on Aliyev, not a specialist source on the subject, and provides inaccurate info about him.
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2074:“Only once was there an unfortunate setback in this rapidly developing NKVD career. Being in charge of the 'work' of all the informers in Azerbaijan, he had at his disposal countless secret flats where professional Chekists could privately meet their unofficial colleagues, the so-called volunteer helpers.
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Apparently, Perkin misinterpreted some claims in
Vaksberg's book. He actually refers to Vaksberg, who himself was more of a sensationalist type of a journalist. That still does not make Perkin a reliable source on this subject, and the review that you quote says that Perkin's book is "controversial".
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That "information" which is just a surname confusion isn't from this source, it's from The
Independent news article in the book. And the page where this surname confusion mistake is found (p.139) isn't even used in this article as a citation. The book is obviously reliable and no, it's not a "passing
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I consider Sobaka fairly reliable, but I can't find anything else on the web to confirm these claims. Can someone tell me their sources for the original information? If it was taken from Heydar's old official website, then it would seem that we're just echoing his attempts to rewrite his own past.
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It might appear reliable due to the publisher, but the information it provides is clearly false and contradicts the known facts. Therefore, I don't think that we should consider this source reliable for this particular article. No other source says that Heydar Aliyev led
Popular Front of Azerbaijan,
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Agree, the claim is ridiculous. He tried to stop
Armenian advances into Azerbaijan's territory, but since the country was in the state of civil war, did not much succeed in that. Only Horadiz was regained. The paragraph above should definately be revised, 30 000 deaths and 750 000 were the result of
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Although it is true that Azeris tried to counterattack
Armenian advances but still blaming Əliyev for whole war and 30 000 deaths is ridiculous. From text you could also think that 30 000 Azeris died because of this attack and 750 000 had to leave their homes. 750 000 is maybe right during the whole
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There is an almost complete absence here of detail covering the years of his presidency, from 1993-2003. The few sentences that treat that time period have no citations, either. Surely that should be the most salient part of his career. It's sort of like writing a page on Barack Obama, but skipping
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There's no oil in
Sumgait. An expert on the region would know that. If an article or book contains such ridiculous claims about "Azeri mafia" or "Sumgait oil", it cannot be taken any seriously. That's why I call it yellow press. If there's indeed such a thing as "Azeri mafia", why no one creates an
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I have created a subpage of mine regarding Heydar Aliyev and have added missing brief info about Aliyev's career in the KGB and his ties with the Azeri mafia which I am proposing we add to the article. I also included a section, "Honors", including the numerous awards and decorations Aliyev has won
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That said, I agree that the current article focuses a bit much on the negative. More on the positive aspects of his rule would be welcomed. When discussing leaders like Aliyev, I also think it's important that a leader should be judged in comparison with other third-world leaders, not by developed
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Something might be made of Aliyev's almost hero-like reputation within
Azerbaijan today, at least officially. As well as being regarded by many as a crook, he is also the man who "brought Azerbaijan to the West", and is pictured all over the country in banners, in calendars on school walls. Small
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mention" when there are several statements about Aliev in the book (nothing to do with the surname confusion mistake you keep bringing up in page 139). And as if it wasn't enough that the author is a historian and the source is academic with established publisher + a peer-review process, here's a
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Well I do not see how this article is offending, despite feeble attempts at cult of personality there remains in
Azerbaijan a strong apathy about Aliev and his ruling elite. There is no outright condemnation from the majoiry (there is a minority of vocal opposition) but to say that he achieved a
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Specifically, the claims that are disputed are: Birthplace: Sobaka says he was born in
Armenia. Birth year: Sobaka says he tried to shave three years off his age. College education: Our page says he took a degree in history at Azerbaijan State University in Baku. The Sobaka dossier notes this
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Among these volunteers, there were women, and the organization's property holdings solved the problem of secret rendezvous for them and their men friends. This was perhaps the key sense in which these flats were 'secret'. Using his official position, Geidar Aliev would encourage his 'volunteer'
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I added POV and OR tags to section titled KGB and leader of Azerbaijan SSR. Calling someone connected to mafia, just because he was a head of Azerbaijani KGB and Azerbaijan SSR, based on the book by Edmond Azadian, an Armenian author, falls short of any neutrality. The section seems to be only
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Saying that someone is "ethnic Muslim" is totally ridicilous. As far as I know, Əliyev was leader of some atheist organization in the CCCP. Later he "found" religion to be a unifying power for Azeris but that shouldn't have anything to do with hos Politbyro time.. I think this should be simply
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1757:(whose actual surname was also Aliyev) with Heydar Aliyev. Just because a work is written by a respected scholar does not mean that it is reliable on every topic. I think that due to an obvious lack of knowledge on the subject of this article, Perkin cannot be used here.
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the Azeri mafia is powerful in Russia, actually. but generally the famous ones are not mafia leaders, "vor v zakone",but they are who decide the plans in background, even for mafia. and solutions between mafias are settled by them, called "lotu" in Azeri language.
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My impression is that he has a glowing reputation in Azerbaijan partly because he manufactured himself a glowing reputation. History suggests that this is not hard to do when you personally control a country's government. Aliyev may not have reached the level of a
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2139:. As an essay targeted to the public at large, it is a work of culture and finesse. It will make an excellent reference for one of those undergraduate discussions that so usefully open or close a political science, history, or even economics course.
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the most interesting chapter is the one on Aliev and the Azerbaijan mafia. The recent civil disturbances involving the surviving communist leadership, the Aliev mafia and the popular front leadership becomes more comprehensible after Vaksberg's
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know him? Aliyev was recognized by the international community and became well known by becoming President of Azerbaijan. There is no problem including this picture in the article but the infobox should include his Presidential photo.
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I don't think so. He is an Azerbaijani and was the president of Azerbaijan holding that position last. Moreover, he is known as President of Azerbaijan much more than First Secretary of Azerbaijan CP or Politburo member. Thanks.
2079:. Unseen protectors saved the lover-hero; all that happened to him was that he was given a slightly less senior post and his rank reduced a notch—not for long, of course. He soon recovered and resumed his upward career path.”
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make the source unreliable or everything else it says invalid, that's absurd and there is no Knowledge (XXG) policy that tells us to assume that. The source is extremely reliable, it's written by a distinguished historian
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I thought Knowledge (XXG) convention was to use the name most commonly seen in English. Introducing a foreign letter isn't appropriate unless that letter is also used when writing the name in an English-language context.
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Azadian source is not referencing anything by itself, it only reinforces what two other source already confirm. I believe there is an arbcom remedy somewhere saying that you can't discriminate against Armenian sources.
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Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable; editors should cite sources focused on the topic at hand where
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review uses the word "controversial" but not in the sense that it would be considered unreliable, because it is praised for being well written and an excellent reference for political science and history.
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What is your problem with the other two sources that you are labelling the section "yellow press"? Are we to assume that if Azadian is removed as a source, you both will be happy with the section and its
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helpers to make love to him. One of them went along with it but then changed her mind and kicked up a fuss. This was after Stalin's death, and the terror of what had been Beria's outfit eased for a while
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Because a member of the Politburo of the USSR is much higher position than the president of a small republic. This is a portrait, but not picture. Beautiful and well rubbed. A picture is a curve and not
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Meanwhile, in 1991-1992 Heydar Aliyev worked in the Autonomus Republic of Nakhchivan (an autonomus exclave in South-West Azerbaijan) formally holding the deputy chairman position in the Supreme Soviet
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It is very much relevant. We should not use the sources that provide inaccurate information, and the rules advise us not to use sources that only make a passing mention of the subject of the article.
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I agree, Azadian cannot be considered a reliable source. All the references to it should be removed. And indeed, this section reminds yellow press rather than encyclopedic article. Needs to be fixed.
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Yes, this is an absurd claim. Aliyev was never the head of the Popular Front. This is an easily verifiable fact. This author has no idea what he is writing about. I suggest to remove this source.
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I knew him only as a Politburo member. Do you think that the portraits in the encyclopedia should be only portraits of the elderly? Aesthetics are offering to throw in the garbage ledge?--
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I agree, but this awkward sentence has a sense. It means Əliyev was the first member from a "nationality" of traditionnaly Muslim people. And I wonder if it's really the truth. There was
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source which verifies the same things as Perkin said (the info that's actually used in this article), see for example the sex services info which is confirmed in this other book too:
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Perkin. And it was a minor mistake because it wasn't even noticed in Routledge's peer-review process, the same Routledge which is regarded as one of the best publishers in the world.
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Aliyev, with the help of the Azeri mafia, earned the profits from the Caspian Sea caviar, Sumgait oil, fruits and vegetables, cotton and customs and transport industries of Azerbaijan
1311:, using unreliable and primary sources. I was considering a complete revert to 31 March 2017, but I don't have time to review all the subsequent edits and all the current sources. --
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Azerbaijan's People Front (or as mentioned by Perkin, Popular Front) was founded in 1988, and its head, Abulfaz Elchibey (not Heydar Aliyev or Geidar Aliev), became president in
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Perkin isn’t “falsifying” anything, he cited The Independent news article that confused the two Aliyevs, so Perkin shouldn’t be blamed for when he was misled by another source.
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Perkin was not an expert on Azerbaijan. To my knowledge, he had no specific work dedicated to Azerbaijan. He only made a passing mention of Aliyev, and he apparently mixed
1207:: "Managed to" and "failed to" are two completely different concepts, and as the edit isn't referenced at all, readers have no way of checking to see which one is correct.
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This article is very biased. Somebody should clear it up, present references on his so called Mafia relations. Till then it should be tagged as original research.
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Obviouly, if Harold James Perkin gives totally false information on one's public life, how can he be trusted to give any reliable information on private life.
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Thanks. Briefly skimming, I'm concerned that these links being offered may be to poorer sources. Are any of the publishers or authors of similar caliber? --
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While looking for any criticism of Vaksberg or his book, I instead found a source praising both. It even praises the Azerbaijani chapter in particular:
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There is good basic information here, but detail is lacking, especially his youth and early career. Also, lack of citations hurts this article.
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He indeed was the first an only ethnic Muslim to be the member of Politburo. Frunze was not Kyrgyz, and there were no other Muslims in Politburo.
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Do you have a citation for Perkin misinterpreting Vaksberg's book? Or for Vaksberg being a sensationalist? Or is this original research? Yes the
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He should be. Fact checking is the responsibility of every serious scholar. In fact, it is the basics of any scholarly or journalistic research.
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My pleasure. I believe at least one of them is Tadeusz Switechowski who was described as "One of the best known specialist on modern Azerbaijan"
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There is no immediate link to the Knowledge (XXG) article for the nation for Azerbaijan and there should be. I suggest making this change:
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claim and says that he was actually attending the Ministry of State Security Academy, and that Putin dug out the truth about this in 2001.
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and most importantly, its peer-review process? Like I said, a single minor mistake can happen and it's just a confusion of surnames which
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The article title should be written in English, I think, otherwise people who don’t speak Azeri would not know how to spell it correctly.
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Considering such an obvious falsification, all other details given by Perkin on Aliyev can hardly be considered serious or reliable.
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this one mistake in the book pages (those pages aren't even cited in this article). If you can't, then I have no more to argue here.
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If a source shows clear lack of knowledge on the subject, and makes false claims, it cannot be considered reliable. According to
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was actually an Azerbaijani-populated exclave of Nakhchivan, which is currently under control of Armenian forces since 1992.
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from Kyrgystan before him, but Frunze was not a true Kyrgyz, he was of Romanian descent. Can someone find other examples?
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Why? This portait is from Soviet times. The current picture in the article is from the last held position of Presidency.
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923:"Indeed the occupation of Armenian village of Kerky on the Nakhchivan border introduces a new dimension in the conflict"
403:-related topics on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Even if we assume your "analysis" is true and that the book has this one mistake on Aliev's position at the time, that
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because it is not true. Perkin might be a respected historian, but he is no expert on Azerbaijan and Heydar Aliyev.
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war, but 30 000 dead were a result of whole war, not this attack. This 30 000 includes both Armenians and Azeris.
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It is simply propaganda to accuse Əliyev of Mountain-Karabag-war. Especially this chapter must be removed totally:
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Sorry, but that's not encyclopaedic language - that's the language of political propaganda and should be changed.
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Do you find Perkin to be an accurate source about Heydar Aliyev? It was demonstrated that he makes false claims.
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There should also be a note that he became president mainly because of the unstability caused by losing of war.
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I'm not seeing a case for removal, just a lot of personal opinions and poor sources being thrown about. --
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Perkin's book is about global economic and social changes, not political developments in Azerbaijan.
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and was elected to the Supreme Soviet of the republic in time for independence in 1991
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article about it in Knowledge (XXG)? I would be interested to have a look at such an article.
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I inserted the picture right by the text where it is mentioned he was member of Politburo
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of the well established published source written by a distinguished historian because a
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over the years 2009-2017. Unfortunately, I'm not well informed enough to improve on it.
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An RS cites a villager as a possibility. Should be reflected with proper attribution.
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suggested and let's stick to an actual book review which is available for this book.
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https://epdf.tips/the-third-revolution-professional-elites-in-the-modern-world.html
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If that question is for me, then my answer is that it's already been explained. --
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I understand what you're saying but why should the encyclopedia be based on how
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cult-like status is ridiculous. Most just accept him as a necessary nuisance.
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is known for its superior medical services, so why am I not surprised... --
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Vaksberg should be a subject to a separate discussion. I took this to
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By that logic, are you questioning the esteemed academic publisher
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I noticed that this page is repeating a number of details that the
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that were "ousted" by Heydar Aliyev and his supporters in 1993.
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and published by a well established peer-reviewed publication
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from its foundation in 1989 to the Elchibey's death in 2000.
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Please tell me a singe policy that suggests we should remove
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At a glance, the Perkin book appears reliable. The author is
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High-importance biography (politics and government) articles
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which substantially change the meaning of passages, such as
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Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the
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so someone can add the link in the resting place section
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procedure applies to this page. This page is related to
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And further proof that Edmond Azadian is a POV writer:
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There is a good portrait, He should be put at the top
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In his book, Harold Perkin wrote that Heydar Aliyev
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B-Class biography (politics and government) articles
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540:This article has not yet received a rating on the
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2057:So please, avoid personal opinion commentary as
1612:What references identify these "known facts"? --
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1488:In fact, Aliyev has never been the head of the
1482:Link: page 139 of the book or page 158 of PDF:
1302:Good catch. It was added by two Azerbaijan ip
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767:I never knew that, actually. Then again, the
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1700:I can also provide the Svante Cornell quote
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1238:) 08:29, 6 September 2012 (UTC) Hello
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1388:= thanks for the suggestion -
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602:contentious topics procedures
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326:This article is supported by
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1888:The Independent news article
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290:contribute to the discussion
2335:B-Class Azerbaijan articles
1398:15:39, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
1373:14:35, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
1357:to reactivate your request.
1345:has been answered. Set the
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2310:B-Class biography articles
1890:did itself to begin with,
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1490:Azerbaijani People's Front
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100:Neutral point of view
1816:. We can take it to
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988:The article claims:
105:No original research
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739:Grandmaster
693:Kim Jong Il
623:translation
148:free images
31:not a forum
2274:Categories
2265:Azerbaijan
1791:identified
1663:Regards,
1410:--Armatura
1347:|answered=
1148:Vladlen666
1106:Vladlen666
901:POV and OR
729:Isomorphic
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1551:Regards,
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1267:Dgndenver
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1085:Tuscumbia
956:sources?-
826:removed.
684:Jacobolus
666:this page
596:, or any
517:Socialism
508:socialism
467:Socialism
299:Biography
239:Biography
208:is rated
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1814:possible
1242:unsigned
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875:the link
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